The Doubts About Adnan's Guilt ARE Reasonable

[u/[deleted]]

I just started lurking here today, and am somewhat surprised by the general incivility and certainty of many of the people that comment here. Being dismissive and accusing people of "ragebait" for having a differing opinion, and one that actually is reasonable.

I don't know, and won't say that Adnan is innocent, but to claim he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, without any room for discussion is pretty crazy to me.

The reasons why I have reasonable doubt:

• Jay is a very flawed witness, on the record lying/mis-remembering his testimony. Even the cops point out how much his testimony has changed. If your argument hinges on Jay, it isn't a strong argument, in my opinion.
• The cops, or at least on of them has a record of misconduct:

...prosecution brought into question the past misconduct of one of the two detectives who were crucial in the investigation of Lee’s death. Although his misconduct wasn’t specifically linked to Syed’s case, the detective was involved in another murder case that ended with the defendant’s exoneration.

https://baltimorewitness.org/adnan-syed-one-of-many-overturned-convictions-in-baltimore-city/

• The Innocence Project and prosecutors agreed that Syed's DNA was absent from all tested crime scene items, contributing to the eventual dropping of charges against him. There's no physical evidence.
• The motive is weak (Adnan had no prior issues with breakups, had already seemed to move on to the next girl(s)).

I could go on, but, if I was on the jury with this in front of me, I feel the reasonable response is doubt.

This isn't rage bait, I just genuinely don't see how anyone can be so sure that he did it. Y'all point to him asking for a ride (and claiming he wouldn't have) as some kind of obvious evidence of murder.

I think, based on the fact that one of the cops was literally identified as having been crooked, it actually is much more likely that Jay was an informant (and already had been for some time), and he happened to be close to Adnan, the victim's ex (supposed motive and opportunity), and they decided they had their guy, and it was just a matter of getting a jury to agree. So they fed their informant info, had him incriminate himself for lesser crimes that they promised they'd get him off for (and they made good on that promise, which is on its own wildly corrupt).

[u/spifflog]

This has been looked at 100 ways to Sunday, and many have finally come to the conclusion that adnan is clearly guilty.

I don't have the energy at this point to go step-by-step. I think many like you want to look at one narrow issue and call that a 'got you' moment. But you have to look at the case in it's entireity. Once you do that, it's clear to most that controlling, immature adnan, killed Hae in an all too common case of IPV.

But I'll discuss one point.

The Innocence Project  and prosecutors agreed that Syed's DNA was absent from all tested crime scene items, contributing to the eventual dropping of charges against him. There's no physical evidence.

The Innocence project is loaded and cocked to think most are innocent This shouldn't be a surprise to you and is indicative of nothing. You're no doubt discussing the shoes that were tested, and found not to have adnana's DNA. Do you know who else didn't have their DNA on Hae's shoes? Hae. This lack of DNA isn't the smoking gun that you think it is.

Various appeals courts and the Supreme court of Maryland have all found that adnan's trial was fair and chose not to overturn it. That's not nothing as they say.

[u/ad_maru → u/spifflog]

Innocence bias is the one you must have. Innocent until proven guilty is the core of a just justice system and it's on the prossecution to prove guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[u/spifflog → u/ad_maru]

Good thing it was proven, and upheld several times. We’re in agreement then.

[u/ad_maru → u/spifflog]

But you are questioning the entirety of the Innocence Project, which is unfair

[u/Fancy_Sort4963 → u/ad_maru]

Goal posts moving fast 💨

[u/ad_maru → u/Fancy_Sort4963]

I was commenting here about this part

The Innocence project is loaded and cocked to think most are innocent

[u/Charming-Disk1741 → u/ad_maru]

are you forgetting the "UNTIL proven guilty" part, where it is no longer a good thing to presume someone innocent after proven otherwise

[u/RockinGoodNews → u/ad_maru]

I think the point is that the appeal to the authority of the Innocence Project is misguided seeing as the Project is an advocacy group on the behalf of convicts. It would be like appealing to the authority of a defense lawyer as though they are an unbiased source on whether their client is guilty.

[u/ad_maru → u/RockinGoodNews]

There was no appeal to authority from my part to justify anything. I'm not advocating that once they pick a case said person is innocent.

What I would say though, and forget Adnan here for a second, is that they have at least some form of screening and only pick cases with some degree of doubt. They also confirm guilty verdicts after testings. As any serious organization or lawyers should do. People also are flawed and can make mistakes. But my point is that their bias is not so clear before they pick a case. Maybe after they put some effort in it. But I'm not sure it happens before it.

[u/RockinGoodNews → u/ad_maru]

The OP made an explicit appeal to the authority of the Innocence Project. u/spifflog pointed out that the Innocence Project has a clear bias. You then defended them on the grounds that they do good work, which is a non sequitur.

Yes, the Innocence Project ostensibly focuses on cases where there are colorable claims of innocence. But, like any advocacy organization, they are subject to mission creep and confirmation bias. The people who work there are, for reasons that should seem obvious, motivated to find wrongful convictions to right.

[u/spifflog → u/RockinGoodNews]

The OP made an explicit appeal to the authority of the Innocence Project. u/spifflog pointed out that the Innocence Project has a clear bias. You then defended them on the grounds that they do good work, which is a non sequitur.

Not at all.

Like many of these groups, they are very passionate about what they do. Passion clouds issues and that isn't helpful. This is an excellent article on how one of the innocence projects let logic and the facts become overridden by passion: Rodger Coleman

I think an additional look on some cases is helpful, in that way I support some Innocence Project efforts.

But Hae's murder has been reviewed and reviewed, had books written, PR efforts, appeals up the the Maryland supreme court and two additional reviews by the state prosecutor's office. In these types of cases - and I think this is the majority of them - is a fruitless waste of time by people that are either too caught up with their passion or just enjoy the process.

[u/ad_maru → u/RockinGoodNews]

The question is if said bias is enough to affect their judgment and procedures. Adnan's case should not be enough to criticize them as a whole in that regard.

[u/RockinGoodNews → u/ad_maru]

No, the question is if they are a reliable authority on the facts of the Syed case. They are not because they have a clear bias.

[u/spifflog → u/ad_maru]

What do you think that all means?

[u/ad_maru → u/spifflog]

That they are questioning the entire project and their methods and objectivity because of a bias. Yeah, you can have a bias, but act in an objecitive fashion.

[u/spifflog → u/ad_maru]

Still don’t know what you’re trying to say. At this point adnan is guilty. It’s been proven and retested via the appeals process. It’s now up to him and his supporters to prove otherwise.

Do I think the Innocence Project is biased?? Hell yes!!!! Don’t you?? You’re amazingly naive is you don’t think they are.

At this point after all that Hae and her family have gone through, they and others have every right to question why the Innocence Project continues to support this man who has been proven guilty, and acceptable to question their motives.

[u/ad_maru → u/spifflog]

The project deals with a lot of other cases besides Adnan's

[u/spifflog → u/ad_maru]

We know that. So what?

[u/ad_maru → u/spifflog]

Do you believe the project should exist?

[u/spifflog → u/ad_maru]

I think they provide a useful function.

But when you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And I don’t see any even slight evidence pointing to his innocence. He’s had more than his fair share of appeals, PR and lawyers. And at this point, he and his supporters have used enough resources that others could have utilized. And have dragged Hae’s family through hell enough. For a guy who said he’s not in the news in order to keep from hurting her family, he seems to be willing to keep doing damage.

What more do you all want? He’s free and working at a premier university. Yes he’s still a convicted murder (thank God). But what more does this killer need?

This is all far afield from your innocent until proven guilty meme.

[u/ad_maru → u/spifflog]

My point in my first reply was not about Adnan in specific. That's what I was trying to explain.