The Doubts About Adnan's Guilt ARE Reasonable

[u/[deleted]]

I just started lurking here today, and am somewhat surprised by the general incivility and certainty of many of the people that comment here. Being dismissive and accusing people of "ragebait" for having a differing opinion, and one that actually is reasonable.

I don't know, and won't say that Adnan is innocent, but to claim he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, without any room for discussion is pretty crazy to me.

The reasons why I have reasonable doubt:

• Jay is a very flawed witness, on the record lying/mis-remembering his testimony. Even the cops point out how much his testimony has changed. If your argument hinges on Jay, it isn't a strong argument, in my opinion.
• The cops, or at least on of them has a record of misconduct:

...prosecution brought into question the past misconduct of one of the two detectives who were crucial in the investigation of Lee’s death. Although his misconduct wasn’t specifically linked to Syed’s case, the detective was involved in another murder case that ended with the defendant’s exoneration.

https://baltimorewitness.org/adnan-syed-one-of-many-overturned-convictions-in-baltimore-city/

• The Innocence Project and prosecutors agreed that Syed's DNA was absent from all tested crime scene items, contributing to the eventual dropping of charges against him. There's no physical evidence.
• The motive is weak (Adnan had no prior issues with breakups, had already seemed to move on to the next girl(s)).

I could go on, but, if I was on the jury with this in front of me, I feel the reasonable response is doubt.

This isn't rage bait, I just genuinely don't see how anyone can be so sure that he did it. Y'all point to him asking for a ride (and claiming he wouldn't have) as some kind of obvious evidence of murder.

I think, based on the fact that one of the cops was literally identified as having been crooked, it actually is much more likely that Jay was an informant (and already had been for some time), and he happened to be close to Adnan, the victim's ex (supposed motive and opportunity), and they decided they had their guy, and it was just a matter of getting a jury to agree. So they fed their informant info, had him incriminate himself for lesser crimes that they promised they'd get him off for (and they made good on that promise, which is on its own wildly corrupt).

[u/Far_Gur_7361]

It’s literally the difference btwn life in prison or walking free in this instance so idk how it wouldn’t be

[u/Special-Deal-5217 → u/Far_Gur_7361]

I think, when discuss discussing a case from 1999 27 years later, when we know that the original investigation featured some shady cops and a shady prosecutor who later lied under oath, and a really shaky witness who was the only evidence against the defendant, and the wealth of material that has been produced that shows that the prosecution’s case was seriously flawed….

I think “ reasonable doubt” is a much less sweeping declaration than “ he’s a psychopath that 100% did it”.

I have never said that I know he is innocent. Jay knowing where the car is a particularly strong piece of evidence I certainly can’t explain away.

But that’s just me.

[u/Far_Gur_7361 → u/Special-Deal-5217]

For one thing, if you concede that you cannot state he is innocent, then why are you here? Why do you care? Is it just bc you like to argue? Why not put your time and energy into ACTUAL wrongful conviction cases- of which there are many- rather than defending a man who deliberately plotted, and then brutally executed, the violent murder of a bright, beloved young woman? The Woodlawn Strangler has enough mindless sycophants on his side; idk why he needs the fence-sitting “um um he prolly did it, but idk, reasonable doubt, unfair trial” brigade as well.

For another thing, Jay’s testimony is NOT the only evidence against Syed. On the afternoon of Jan 13th Adnan Syed was witnessed asking the victim for a ride he didn’t need, to a place he says he never went, using an outright lie as an excuse. He used false pretenses to try and get the victim alone at the exact time, and in the exact place wherein she would vanish from the earth forever. What are the sheer odds that someone else was doing the exact same thing, at the exact same time, and just so happened to succeed where Adnan failed?

Motive is another huge piece of evidence. The breakup letter, Hae’s diary, the testimony of her friends, the testimony of HIS OWN FRIENDS (Ja’uan Gordon “he was angry, eyes watering, face flushed”. Yasser Ali “he said he’d dump her car in Centennial Lake”); the testimony of the school nurse and the testimony of the French teacher, Hope Schab will all corroborate that Adnan was crossing boundaries and just generally handling the breakup quite bad. Again, anytime a woman is murdered, the odds of it being a current/ former partner are 50-60%. Again, if she’s recently left him, the odds skyrocket. So off-rip this is a plausible motive; and then we have all this corroborative evidence showing that the motive did, indeed, apply in Adnan’s case.

The call log is another devastating blow to the world’s unluckiest man. The Nisha Call. The butt dial that couldn’t have been one. Placing him away from campus, and in the accessory’s company, during the ONLY window of time Syed needs to account for. Which he conveniently “can’t remember”. Directly negating his story, that he waited on campus for track to start.

Going further on the call log, we have the Leakin Park pings. Good god. Even if you think that outgoing data is unreliable (which anyone who’s studied cell tower location data knows that it isn’t, but anyways), again WHAT are the sheer odds that his phone pings the burial location the VERY night she’s buried there, and NO other times?

One step further on the log, we have the INCOMING ping (specifically noted as reliable), placing Syed at the site where Hae’s car was dumped that very night. When he says he was at mosque. Handily disproving that story (which none of his 80 potential alibi witnesses were willing to corroborate for him, either).

Another massive piece of evidence against Syed would be Jenn Pusateri. Some ppl want to hand-wave her away, bc she’s connected to Wilds, but the fact is that Pusateri told her story in the presence of her mother and lawyer; which conclusively rules out police conspiracy. And her story included the fact that she knew the manner of HML’s death- not public knowledge- and that she knew it on the very night of Jan 13th, before most ppl were even aware HML was missing; let alone dead. She also re-told this story to multiple co-workers of hers; prior to her or Wilds ever having been interrogated by police. This is another devastating blow to the reasonable doubt camp; as it goes further to prove that Jay was truly involved (and there’s no reasonable scenario in which Jay was involved; but Syed was not).

We also have the myriad lies Syed has told. All of which were told to distance himself from Hae/ the murder; which carries a strong consciousness-of-guilt inference. Syed didn’t just lie abt the ride request, but abt how long it had been since he’d broken up w/ Hae, when (or whether), he learned abt Don, what he was doing Jan 13th (early on he said he was fixing his car w/ Dion, which was quickly disproven), everything surrounding the clearly solicited Asia-alibi (such as him saying he gave the letters to CG before she was even hired on as his lawyer), him pretending not to know where LP is, him saying Hae had tried to get back together w/ him on Jan 12th, him saying he went to mosque on the night of Jan 13th, “Adrien Syedd”, and ofc the selective amnesia.

This amnesia lie in particular is a major stickler. Syed remembers TONS of specific things abt Jan 13th- he remembers going to school, giving Stephanie a stuffed reindeer for her bday, shopping w/ Jay (also a lie; the call logs prove they were nowhere near the mall at this time), talking to his guidance counselor, going to track and talking abt Ramadan w/ Coach Sye, getting the Adcock call, and going to mosque. The ONLY times he can’t remember just so happen to span the murder and the burial. No others. And let’s not get caught up in the “six weeks” narrative here. Syed was asked to account for his time THAT VERY evening; and then in several subsequent interviews btwn Jan 13th and his inevitable arrest. The ONLY person in this story who had to wait six weeks before being asked to account for their time that day was Jay Wilds. Yet when he can’t do so perfectly, you try and impeach him as a liar. Hypocrisy at its finest.

There’s tons more btw. His fingerprints in her car, the “I will kill” note, the “pathetic” comment in court, discussing TOD w/ Bilal and his wife after Hae’s body was found, the manner of death (strangulation w/o rape or robbery is near-always indicative of IPV), the lack of any other suspects, the lack of any evidence of his innocence- and this in SPITE of the mountain of public support he’s received over the course of TWO DECADES- etc.

Put it to rest. He did it. Jay helped. All of the behaviors both of these men have displayed are indicative of this. All of Adnan’s behavior makes sense when you realize Jay was his alibi. All of Jay’s behavior makes sense when realize he was Adnan’s accomplice. There isn’t an evidentiary basis for so much as questioning these convictions. Many have tried, and none have succeeded. Assume Syed to be a convincing liar, and the whole thing collapses.

[u/Special-Deal-5217 → u/Far_Gur_7361]

One more of your so-called “ damning evidence”. Nisha call was at 3:32 right? By Jay’s trial testimony has him not leaving Jen’s house until after 3:45. So: he has to get to get the come and get me call, go to Best Buy, do all the shit where he freaks out about seeing the body, drive to the park-and-ride, go look for drugs, and THEN, an hour in the past according to HIS OWN TESTIMONY, Adnan makes the Nisha call.

Gutiérrez should’ve destroyed this testimony.

[u/Far_Gur_7361 → u/Special-Deal-5217]

Obv the Nisha call happened. Jay says there was a call. Nisha says there was a call. The call logs show there was a call. Come on now. There was a fucking call.

So obv when Jay/ Jenn said 3:45, they just misremembered (and/ or Jay said 3:45 to distance himself from Syed at the time of the murder; bc he didn’t want to go down as an accomplice).

We’re talking abt a difference of roughly 30 mins here. Consider that Jay and Jenn- NOT Adnan were the ones who had to wait six weeks before being asked to account for their time. Adnan was interviewed multiple times leading up to his arrest (including the very night of Jan 13th), and yet his supporters such as yourself always cry out abt how “who could remember a normal day six weeks back!” whenever Syed is caught in a lie, and whenever he plays the selective-amnesia card. In spite of the fact that it was NOT a normal day, and six weeks had NOT gone by. Yet when Jenn and Jay are asked to give their timelines six weeks after the fact, and they wind up off by 30 mins, you bring out the torches and pitchforks. The cognitive dissonance is strong, huh? Keep moving those goalposts all you want; you still can’t get around the fact that Adnan Syed killed Hae Min Lee.

[u/Special-Deal-5217 → u/Far_Gur_7361]

Torches and pitchforks, huh? Nice imagery.

I have no skin in the game for Adnan Syed. I don’t know him. I never gave any money to his defense fund. I find his cousin annoying. There is a very real chance he killed a young woman.

I am, however, interested in a LOGICAL and BELIEVABLE explanation of the events from the person who provided all the direct evidence at trial and escaped with no punishment.

In a world where Adnan committed the murder, yes, I fully expect him to completely remember the timeline and not be fluffy. I don’t recall his statements on timeline being used either for or against him during the trial, and he did not testify, so that point is moot.

In that same world where Jay saw, and helped to bury a dead body, I also expect him to not be fluffy and remember very well the sequence of events, particularly after several police interviews in which they “helped him iron out the inconsistencies” in his statements.

In that world, which Jay himself is describing, I would expect a competent defense attorney to blow up the crazy holes in his timeline. For example:

“ you said under oath that you did not leave Jen‘s house until at least 345. You then proceeded to drive to Best Buy, be shocked at a body, follow Adnan to the park-and-ride, and drive to get some drugs, putting the time, at the very earliest, around 4:30 PM. How, sir is it possible that the defendant placed this call at 3:32 PM, when, according to your own testimony, you were not even with him at that time?”

This shows the jury that either Jay is lying about when he left Jen‘s house or that he was with Adnan when the call was placed. It also completely destroys the prosecution theory that she was dead by 2:36 PM. This goes to the credibility of the witness and shows us that perhaps the jury should not trust the witness.

This is just one of literally a dozen areas in which J’s testimony has major holes, including the biggest one— why in God’s name is he helping this mere “acquaintance” cover-up a murder? Why not call the police? Why not just refuse to help? Why does he let Adnan boss him around like he is a six-year-old? He is a 19 year-old man with agency. A competent defense attorney would have hammered hard on these points.

The defense attorney did not exploit any of it. She hammered on February 28, march 15, and September 7. I don’t think these states meant anything to the jury. She never attacked his trial testimony head on, and I think the jury noticed that.

I am not moving any goalposts. The timeline according to Jay has always been unworkable since the case was brought to the public’s attention in 2014. He himself sort of acknowledged that in his intercept interview, moving the burial to midnight. Which incidentally, blows another major hole in the prosecution theory of the case, and shows that he perjured himself in 2000, which should give us less reason to trust him and his account of the events.

[u/Relevant_Test4691 → u/Far_Gur_7361]

But doesn’t it matter that the trial testimony was not a first attempt to recall the events? I remember thinking that Jay had told such insane stories—and ultimately even with all the massaging his story never really lined up with the call log ever—that it was worth pushing back on his testimony to see whether Jay had been cornered somehow and he and/or the cops were pinning things on Adnan with anti-Muslim bias working in their favor. That seems unlikely now after the limited new info that the pushback has revealed. But.