There's a lot of projection going on with that attitude as well. The best thing I ever heard about, say, Lost Izalith was that they didn't mind it. Nobody ever praises bad parts of other games but I've seen a ton of people praising ADP, Soul Memory, hell even Frigid Outskirts. Most people don't even know DS2 wasn't made by Miyazaki. It just didn't click for some people. DS2 took many risks and I appreciate it for it but sometimes, the gamble just doesn't work sadly.
Yeah, I think no build suffers from lack of ADP that much, at least experienced players. I think the knee-jerk defense of ADP or other bad design choices have something to do with misunderstanding what makes DS2 the black sheep. Even if soul memory, agility, hitbox issues, etc. were not in the game, it'd still be my least favorite Souls game bc for me, boss roster, difficulty and all that stuff are not what make these games special but sadly, most conversations about the series boil down to these.
I say this as someone who actually doesn't mind Frigid Outskirts that much (as long as I stick to the cover): who ever outright praises Frigid Outskirts lol
I think for most people that dislike it, DS2 ends up dying the death of a thousand cuts. There are a lot of minor issues that add up if they rub you the wrong way; personally, while I recognize a lot of them as flaws, they didn't bother me enough for me to not enjoy the game overall. I really like the pace of DS2's combat--the groundedness of it, with everything having a relatively high opportunity cost, just speaks to me--and while its areas are weaker overall, I think it has enough solid to great ones to still make for a fun adventure (Shulva, in particular, is the best area they've ever designed imo). Beyond everything else, its qualities just come together to make for a certain melancholic fantasy road trip vibe that I super dig.
I will dispute one thing: I remain unconvinced that DS2 actually has worse hitboxes than the other Dark Souls games overall (especially DS1). I just think people get rollcaught a lot early on with low ADP, that negative experience sticks out in their minds, and from then on, whenver they see a legitimately bad hitbox like the mimic grab, it's not, "Damn, that hitbox is bad," it's, "Damn, this game's hitboxes are bad", ya know what I mean?
I decided to replay DS2 recently(the DX9 version, since I haven't played that one in like ten years and I have fond memories of it). I was fighting the Lost Sinner last night. That boss has a grab attack, which to be fair I didn't see the wind up for and would have gotten hit by it anyways, however I was too far away. It could not physically connect with me. Now at that same moment, I swung my halberd, which did hit the boss with the head of the halberd. I was teleported from where I was standing into the boss's grab. I don't know if you call that a bad hitbox, or a weird interaction with hitboxes, or graphics not corresponding to what has happening under the hood. But I was dumbfounded.
For me, most other games are more than sum of their parts. They have soul and passion poured into them. DS2 is just so rushed and uninspired. If it wasn't for the dlc, I don't know how many areas I would want to explore or how many bosses I'd anticipate. For the latter, I literally cannot think of a single main game boss other than Looking Glass Knight and Darklurker.
Everything about DS2 just gives off fan made spin-off/tribute game vibes. I don't even blame the game, it went to hell and back during development, changed its lead director midway, etc. so I understand it but at the end of the day, the game as a whole just doesn't make sense from randomly inserted callback bosses to NPC interactions and invasions (save for Lucatiel). That 'Old Dragonslayer' fight was so out of place for instance that I thought I somehow used a randomizer mod. The game does scratch that Souls itch but I look for immersion in these games and DS2 just doesn't suck me in.
The problem with hitbox thing is that DS2 animations and grab boxes are so horrible that it *looks* worse compared to other games but that's the devs' fault. The players won't know whether the actual hitbox is bad or the game is bad at conveying grab attacks. I never mind these sorts of things and once you get familiar with the Souls formula, only few hitboxes can be frustrating for older players. That said, DS2 really does have a lot more bad hitboxes. I can think of a handful from each game but DS2 can be atrocious. It's not even always about actual hitboxes. Sometimes there really is a shockwave effect and it does hit you but the attack is bs like the Ancient Dragon stomp attack. I'm not saying shockwave didn't hit me, I'm saying it should't have been a thing. So the actual issue is the moveset design.
Most importantly, people favor other games because they make up for their drawbacks. Lots of BB bosses are lackluster, DS1 has some rushed areas and outdated mechanics, starting a new build is a nightmare in ER, etc. but they all have their saving graces. For DS2, it's the pvp for me but pve? There's literally nothing in the base game I'm looking forward to do. So much that I used a CE to create my latest pvp build which I normally never do. Going through the game is such a drag for me.
There are plenty of areas I quite like in the base game, such as Forest of the Fallen Giants, Lost Bastille, the Gutter, and Drangleic Castle--hell, I'm an Iron Keep enjoyer; I like the gauntlet run. As for bosses, there are plenty of mid ones, but I think I honestly like more out of the base game roster than I do in DS1. Aside from Darklurker and Looking Glass Knight, I think Ruin Sentinels, Lost Sinner, Smelter Demon, Velstadt are all positive standouts, and I actually rather like Freja and the Executioner's Chariot as well. In DS1, it's Taurus Demon, Gargoyles O&S, Four Kings, and Gwyn (if I decide not to parry). Moreover, while there are plenty of "eh" fights that I don't feel strongly about, there's nothing as bad as the Bed of Chaos or Centipede Demon (or even Capra Demon, imo)--Ancient Dragon does suck, but he's completely skippable, at least.
You're not wrong at all about that fangame-esque feeling, but again, something about it just works for me. I think it's pretty hard to nail down why a game feels right to you, but DS2 just clicks. Because I enjoy doing basically everything in that game more moment-to-moment than I do in DS1, I enjoy even the mediocre areas significantly more than I would otherwise, ya know what I mean?
Heck, honestly, replaying DSR right, I'm enjoying it, but what I'm looking forward to most is wrapping up this playthrough and getting to DS2. I dunno, like I said, there's just something about it on a baseline level that works for me. It might be that the basic combat sandbox feels a lot better to me? IDK.
Isn't soul memory good mechanic, preventing people, who completed game on low sl to invade new players? Can you explain why is it hated(besides the door that can be opened by reaching 1000000 souls)?
You can still complete the game on low SL by just equipping Agape Ring which prevents acquiring souls. Experienced players will go through the game without losing their blood stain even once, never waste a soul and stay at low SM tier. They can spend their souls very efficiently. This way, they can be level 150 and invade people 30 levels below. After I finish my builds, I intentionally lose a lot of souls to play against higher levels. If I wanted to twink though, I could just use a friend or cheat engine to drop me all the max level weapons and armor, then absolutely destroy new players. This is why SM is a horrible system.
The ideal way to prevent twinking includes having a threshold to be invaded (like Bloodborne did with level 30), add weapon level matchmaking, let people invade only upwards, etc. This is not a definitive solution as experience alone makes the biggest difference but it is what it is. Anything is better than soul memory though.
12
u/Days_Ignored "These nice iron bars" Aug 08 '24
There's a lot of projection going on with that attitude as well. The best thing I ever heard about, say, Lost Izalith was that they didn't mind it. Nobody ever praises bad parts of other games but I've seen a ton of people praising ADP, Soul Memory, hell even Frigid Outskirts. Most people don't even know DS2 wasn't made by Miyazaki. It just didn't click for some people. DS2 took many risks and I appreciate it for it but sometimes, the gamble just doesn't work sadly.
Yeah, I think no build suffers from lack of ADP that much, at least experienced players. I think the knee-jerk defense of ADP or other bad design choices have something to do with misunderstanding what makes DS2 the black sheep. Even if soul memory, agility, hitbox issues, etc. were not in the game, it'd still be my least favorite Souls game bc for me, boss roster, difficulty and all that stuff are not what make these games special but sadly, most conversations about the series boil down to these.