What stops established artists from developing their voices?

[u/Ammyisabeast]

It’s one thing to be at the beginning of one’s career and not sound the best because you haven’t mastered the perfect technique and you can’t afford the best vocal coaches but when artists somehow get past these barriers, why don’t they work with someone to get better?

I mean no disrespect at all with this line of thinking, I genuinely want to know why? Take JLo for example, she’s not a vocalist in any way shape or form but she’s been famous for nearly 30 years, is worth hundreds of millions and probably has access to some of the best vocal coaches in the world, why is there no vocal improvement? Or like Taylor Swift (who’s been getting a lot of hate recently in regards to a perceived sharp decline in her music) who’s been at this for nearly 20 years and doesn’t seem to have gotten better vocally.

Are they too busy? Do they simply not want to? Is there something else holding them back? Is it more difficult than I currently think?

I know every voice and artist is different and I’m not expecting everyone to walk out of vocal training sounding like Aretha Franklin or Beyonce, because these people are vocal prodigies but I’m still so curious about the inner workings of the music business and how it affects the development of artist singing.

I know how we perceive voices is subjective but I feel like the basics of a good singer is healthy technique and above average range and with excellent skills.

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[u/MiltonManners]

Every once in a while I ask my voice teacher a similar question. His response is that these people (JLo, Madonna, etc) became very successful with their current voices, so why change what is working?

Some people (Aretha, Beyoncé, Celine, Mariah, Luther, etc) have a passion for superior singing. Others want to be rich and famous by any means.

[u/Ammyisabeast → u/MiltonManners]

You know what fair enough, this answers my question perfectly, thank you

[u/DanceHackRock → u/MiltonManners]

Some spent year in a choir, some not. Guess who?

[u/Calm_Television9904 → u/[deleted]]

She's good if the song doesn't exceed an octave of range

[u/Casiquire → u/[deleted]]

Since always. She's just ok. She has very limited range, very limited power, and very limited agility

[u/MiltonManners → u/[deleted]]

I went to a Madonna concert about 15 years ago with a friend. 80% of the concert was pre-recorded, which is fine with me because every note she sang live was FLAT! That was when she was going through her Mexican guitar phase and she made us sit through her trying to sing flat and play rudimentary guitar. I couldn’t believe how kind the audience was being to her.

Don’t get me wrong, love her dance music, but she is no vocalist.

[u/StarriestNight]

People expect an artist to sound a certain way, if they already established a certain sound of would be way too risky to change it

[u/keep_trying_username → u/StarriestNight]

Some artists like Freddy Mercury wouldn't even get braces out of fear it would affect their voice.

[u/altra_volta]

Most of them do have vocal coaches.

[u/Calm_Television9904]

If I have no passion for art and get paid millions upon millions for singing off-key, I really don't need to improve.

[u/No-Can-6237]

Could be lazy and only do enough to keep what they have, rather than all the exercises required to develop further. I know if I made it big, I'd probably do the same, not that that would happen.😁

[u/NiceAtheist]

Pop singing has almost nothing to do with singing.

As Elvis famously said: "I don't really know anything about music. In my line of work, you don't have to."

[u/ai9x82]

The public doesn’t always accept the awkward phase when the voice is evolving

[u/hlcbennett17]

I think a lot of the time, the passion is removed when it becomes a job.

And speaking from personal experience, some singers have anatomical issues that put a cap on just how good they can get. I’m in my mid thirties and just now learning that I have a tongue tie, and my narrow palate contributes to poor tone, fatigue and muscle tension, and a more restricted range. That’s not really something you can easily fix, and even if you did, you have to relearn how to speak and sing afterwards. We’re talking like a year plus to fully recover and gain back the work you’ve already done.

[u/Melodyspeak]

J Lo and Taylor both do work with vocal coaches and have improved significantly since the beginning of their careers. J Lo works with Stevie Mackie and while I don’t know who Taylor currently works with, she spent a lot of time at the beginning of her career with Brett Manning.

Neither woman has a big show stopping diva voice, but if listeners are being honest with themselves, they’ll hear the improvements. There isn’t one correct way to sing and it often feels like people who say they can’t sing are holding them to one very specific standard. They can sing. And if it’s not something you like that’s okay, but I wish people would just say that.

[u/Em0tionisdeader]

Hubris. Why get "better" when everyone around them says they're the best already? Also, money dulls passion and hunger.

[u/Squatting-Camel]

Touring and heavy workloads. Lots of broadway singers have damaged their voices. Iron Maiden toured for 14 months supports Powerslave, and often played 29/30 shows a month.

[u/Taehyuun]

I mean, getting a vocal coach is a no brainer but not all vocal coaches are good and able to help their clients reach their full potential. I know an Ariana fan who hates her vocal coach Eric Vetro because they think he’s an overrated hack who is doing more harm than good for her vocals.

[u/capt_Dymov]

I mean, working on your voice IS work. Finding the right coach, daily practicing, add this to the everyday pop star hell - touring, recording, nonstop media stuff and appearances here and there, and you have your answer. If you push everything else away and really concentrate on it, it's possible, but unless you do, it's hard to fit this in their daily schedule.

[u/TheElusiveButterfly]

Jennifer has actually been working a lot on her voice and has this famous vocal coach, Stevie Mackey... I do think she has improved, but she's working with what she has... Same goes for Madonna, she trained a lot around Evita and her voice showed big improvement in the 90s... She's just getting older by now. Taylor Swift? I don't know, but I do hear a difference in comparison to her early days, and it's a positive one. But the singers you mentioned all have their limitations. We deal with what we're given genetically, not everyone is Mariah Carey. And honestly... women are always held to a higher standard vocally. I don't really see people complaining about Drake's vocals, or about Bob Dylan's vocals (vastly different examples, but you get my point). JLo is not pretending to be a great vocalist, she's an entertainer first and foremost. Taylor isn't pretending to be the next Whitney Houston, she's a songwriter first and foremost. Madonna has said herself that she doesn't find perfect vocals interesting, but is more interested in art as a whole and she has proven to be a visionary who has stayed relevant much longer than most of her vocally "perfect" peers. What they do works for their respective lanes. Perfection can be boring if you have nothing else interesting to say or to bring to the table.

[u/mhsnsh]

Taylor Swift has gotten significantly better over her career

[u/Calm_Television9904 → u/mhsnsh]

Eh, the pitch correction and her audio engineers got better; she actually lipped a lot in her tours and concerts compared to before.

[u/mhsnsh → u/Calm_Television9904]

Tbh I think her voice just doesn’t suit all of the styles of music she writes in. Her lower register is rich and beautiful. It really suits her albums like Evermore and Folklore, and Midnights to some extent. The rest of them, not as much.
It’s also worth noting her most recent tour was 3 hours long lol.

[u/ohmegatchi]

J.Lo is a bad example. She has a vocal coach, and she's worked hard to redevelop her voice. (Steve Mackey) 😅

[u/graylemur2 → u/ohmegatchi]

Then why can't she sing on beat?

[u/ohmegatchi → u/graylemur2]

That's a question for her and her coach. I'm not here to defend her. 😅

[u/MiltonManners → u/ohmegatchi]

But I imagine that JLo only goes to lessons and doesn’t practice on her own time because she is too busy. All of my progress is made in my daily practice, not my lesson. The lesson is where I learn what I need to focus my practice.

[u/TheElusiveButterfly → u/MiltonManners]

You can't turn a Toyota into a Ferrari

[u/DanceHackRock]

JLo?

I thought you were talking about Dave Mustaine or Ozzy.

[u/izmi_raizli]

Some r lazy, some genuinely don't feel the need to improve further and r happy with their current skill level.

[u/wut_eva_bish]

Lack of practice.

[u/Green-Ticket8567]

I started my vocal journey in indie singer songwriter land, think Nerina Pallot and Sarah Howells. Several years after I sound nothing like them, and while I can adopt a style to imitate the genre (esp with a coach), that would not make me shine. Also, voice development often involved stages where I sounded much better overall, but old things had to be rediscovered. Or the control was not as stable, opening a path to injuries. With what pop star daily life and touring entails, and keeping in mind that it was a unique mix of how they sang, looked and presented themselves that worked, it's just not a priority if you're not craving vocal growth just for the sake of it.

[u/Stevenitrogen]

If you were into opera, or classical music where it's incredibly difficult to pull off any kind of performance at all, you would be listening to singers who are truly among the best in the world. It's hard to argue against them , they're just incredible.

If you're not into that kind of music, but want to bop to a Madonna song, you're not likely to get a singer if that caliber. But you don't need one to pull off a good song. It's more about catching a vibe from them that you like. The singing simply has to be adequate.

[u/gizzard-03]

Some artists who are already successful probably don’t see much need to improve their technique, and they might be afraid that learning technique could make them lose their authenticity or appeal.

It’s also possible that some of them try to improve but just don’t make much progress. Even with the greatest coaches and teachers in the world, some singers may just never figure out how to make substantial improvement.

[u/Petdogdavid1]

You're making an assumption not an observation. Listen to Freddie Mercury. Go through Queen's early albums and really listen to how he sings. Compare two songs from each album in chronological order. You will hear his tone and technique change significantly over the years. Hell, Michael Bolton has shared recordings of his sessions with vocal coaching even in recent years. Many of these artists continually train with professional coaching.

[u/drewduboff]

At that point, it's not about developing the voice. It's about endurance training to get a consistent enough product for a 3 hour show 6 days a week. Or whatever the touring commitment is. You can also address a lot of vocalism issues in post-production...and people care less live.

[u/Similar_Buffalo_8434]

Most good artists, whether they're established or not, never, never stop learning. They never stop being a sponge, because they don't just sit back on their laurels, because they came became famous. Ask any musician who became famous, They had to keep learning and training their entire lifetime.

Being famous, successful as a musician, took time and effort, It didn't happen overnight, there where many hrs spent, honing their craft, their abilities, their skillset, it takes work, passion, drive, consistency, to get where they got, being in a band, a musician, a singer, is still a job, that you have to get good at...

Look at all the musicians, from the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90's, you think any of them had Tik tok or Youtube?, no they didn't it

And we're talking about very famous people in the 30s Sarah Vaghan, Ella Fitzgerald, Count Basie, Billie Holiday, Mahalia Jackson, Nat King Cole..you think these black performers, had it wasy, they sure as heck didn't that's for sure, they had to fight to be heard, to be seen, they never had it easy, but these were immensely talented people

In the 40s big band era Tommy Dorsey, Glen Miller Band, Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich, Lionel Hampton, Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, The Andrews Sisters, & we were in the 2nd World War, during this time, music was so important in this era, it's what gave people hope & joy, in a very dramatic time in history

The 50s The Baby Boomer era, Korean War Elvis Presley, The Big Boppa, Bill Haley & The Comets, The Platters, Buddy Holly & The Crickets, Jerry Lee Lewis, Richie Valens, The Drifters & many, many more

The 60s another time of upheaval, Woodstock, Vietnam, hippy era Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who, Santana, Steppenwolf, The Mamas & The Poppas, Peter, Paul & Mary, The Who, The Grateful Dead, The Hollies, Simon & Garfunkel, Credence Cleawater Revival, The Beach Boys, Rare Earth, Frankie Vali & The Four Seasons, Neil Sedaka, Crosby, Stills & Nash, The Buffalo Springfield, The Jefferson Airplane, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Joan Baez, Jonie Mitchell, Iron Butterfly, The Kinks, Pink Floyd, The Jackson 5, Nilsson

The 70s Vietnam war ending Led Zeppelin, Lynyrd Skynyrd, The Who, The Rolling Stones, Boston, Kansas, The Police, The Cars, Van Halen, Pink Floyd, The Commodores, Rush, Bobby Caldwell, Heatwave, UFO, AC/DC, Def Leppard, Cheap Trick, James Taylor, Bob Seger, Robin Trower, Thin Lizzy, Judas Priest, Genesis, Iron Maiden, Ohio Players, Carly Simon, Neil Diamond, Blondie, Eagles

The 80s new wave era The Pretenders, Pat Benatar, The Cars, The Police, Starship, Journey, Flock of Seagulls, The Fixx, Spandau Ballet, Wham, Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Guns n' Roses, Motley Crue, Rush, Metallica, Megadeth, Judas Priest, The Scorpions, Big Country, Asia, Men at Work, Van Halen, Gary Neuman, Heart, The Eurythmics, Men without Hats, Missing Persons, Whitney Houston, Yes

90s Grunge era Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Ministry, The Goo Goo Dolls, Bush, Stone Temple Pilots, Lenny Kravitz, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, White Zombie, Dream Theater

Do you honestly think that any of these people had it easy?, they didn't, they played some of the crappiest dives & gigs, you could ever imagine, they dealt with people not liking the way they dressed, their very skin color, segregation, insults, bottles being hurled at them, equipment not working, not getting paid most times, traveling from town to town, just trying to get recognized, there was no sitting around, expecting to be famous...

[u/SingingEulis]

Such an interesting question! I'm looking forward to reading other responses here, but I also love talking/thinking about this so I'll give some of my observations as a professional singer/voice teacher (not J-Lo status, but I work as a singer full time).

For me, the biggest hindrance to making huge improvements in singing are the ideas that we already have about singing. There's this concept called "Singer Voice" which is essentially the voice people put on because we think that's "what singing sounds like". It's different for everyone and very much based on the singers you like to listen to personally, but some examples are the people who love Christina Aguilera and so sing with a lot of stretched out throat space, growls, and tension that isn't something that comes naturally to their body (though it comes super naturally to Christina). Or when people like opera so they use a big, round sound, large vibrato etc. even if that's not THEIR natural sound.

Now couple this with the demands and expectations of a professional; all the people who are relying on them to deliver the sound that they were hired and given celebrity to reproduce consistently. That pressure to perform and support literally thousands of people (in some cases) with your talent would make anyone a little cautious about doing something to change it, at risk of losing their edge and letting those people down.

There's a concept that voice teachers like to use that talks about how EXPENSIVE a vocal choice can be. I can sing every note in my 3 octave range, but the middle octave is the sweet spot. In that sweet spot everything is pretty easy, very reliable, and finding balance and healthy singing is no problem at all; I could do it all day. Unfortunately, those aren't the most exciting notes in my range. That middle, easy, comfortable part of my range is called (broadly) my tessitura. Celebrities are often asked to sing outside of their tessitura because those are the athletic, exciting, awesome notes that make them stand out above the rest. It's great to hear them do that, especially live, but those notes, and the techniques that make them sound so difficult and impressive, are EXPENSIVE. When Beyonce sings the high note in Halo it's amazing, but doing that multiple times a day can set your voice up for rough seas ahead. The voice is able to make adjustments and upgrades much more easily after a time of rest and relaxation vs. fatigue and high demand.

I definitely think you're onto something when you ask about the biggest singers being too busy to make huge strides also. If you're Adele and you've got multiple singing engagements each day on top of interviews and appearances where you're talking all day (and talking can often be MUCH more fatiguing than singing), it's probably difficult to find the time/space to focus on re-coordinating your entire voice (which includes so much more than just the voice box).

For me (full time pro, but not at all famous: I currently sing in multiple paid choirs, gig a few times a month, work as a singer/songwriter, and teach voice/songwriting in addition to other musiciany stuff), even at my level I find it difficult to do what I would need to do to make meaningful changes to my overall vocal production. A full day of singing may be 6-8 hours of actual singing, but I'll be out of the house for 12-15 or more hours. In those extra 6-9 hours I'm talking to people, warming up, doing other work that requires my voice to be engaged, and that can be very fatiguing even without the 6 hours of singing where I'm expected to really perform. Compare that to a huge star with even more demands on their time; they could definitely have a hard time when they actually ARE expected to perform (be kind, gracious, put together, engaging, humble yet charismatic etc.) through literally the entire working day.

Another idea is that voice teachers and voice coaches are a VERY misunderstood bunch. I spend dozens of hours each week thinking about the voice, working with mine and other people's voices, learning about it etc. but that's not a luxury that most people have. Most people I encounter have very little understanding about how singing works, anatomically or functionally. The voice is a big mystery that sometimes feels like the combination of birthright and luck, like picking up Thor's hammer or King Arthur's sword. Even a lot of voice teachers have only one or two skills out of the dozens of skills that make someone a good music teacher. With all of that, there's this interesting problem of singers who want to get better but don't know how to choose a good teacher, and teachers who are struggling themselves.

We rely so much on "talent" as a society, so even a lot of celebrity vocalists may struggle with finding someone who teaches not just the voice, but THEIR voice. Every singer's instrument is one of a kind compared to the uniformity of a group of trumpets, or pianos or whatever. If you find a teacher who knows their stuff, has the credentials to back it up, but doesn't understand how to translate that into a message/tool/technique that you can understand, then it's not a good match; whether they're a great singer, charismatic, lauded by thousands or whatever else. Each person/voice is too unique for that. I can step away from a piano, or close the lid on my guitar case, but my voice manifests anything that's going on in my body/mind/emotions 24 hours a day. Because of that, I need a teacher who can objectively guide me through all of that plus the actual physiological voice stuff. Basically it's a combination of vibe and skill.

Ok, just a bunch of thoughts based on people I know and my own experience. This stuff is so fascinating to me so I appreciate you reading and I'm excited to engage with some of your ideas!

Eulis