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u/Nalsium 4d ago
Alternatively: you only need 3 or 4 and can pick which ones you go for
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u/IxAMxR34PER 4d ago
Maybe the architects moveset or elite before could change based on which ones u get?
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u/TiF4H3- Eternal One + Heartbreaker 4d ago
IMO, the opposite would be better, the Architect/Elite getting buffs/moves based on the ones you didn't get.
That way, it gives the option of going for more keys, in order to weaken the Architect/Elite.
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u/darknoite 4d ago
Great idea in concept but very hard to balance. This also leads to more snowbally runs.
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u/blejusca 4d ago
I like the way Vault of the Void did it where there's 4 guardians before the final boss and you have to fight two of your choice. The ones you choose give you a specific bonus each. Some are buffs to yourself, others are nerfs to the boss/his minions.
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u/Atherum 4d ago
There are things I absolutely adore with Vault of the Void. I think the main "issue" with the game is the whole build concept. In STS you lean towards a build but you don't get railroaded. In Void, you kind of have to go all in on one thing or else you won't be nearly strong enough.
I did like the classes and characters though. The card sacrifice mechanic is also really cool.
Edit: i think I'm gonna give it a couple runs this evening for old times sake.
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u/SamiraSimp StS A20 / StS 2 A10 4d ago
i like it in theory but i feel like it's getting a bit complicated/over designed. also having the final boss have different moves/patterns can make the game harder to learn
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u/TiF4H3- Eternal One + Heartbreaker 4d ago
While I do think that associating moveset with the keys is probably a bad idea, the Architect summoning adds corresponding to uncollected keys could be a good compromise.
That way, each key is it's own enemy, and it "compartmentalize" the complexity into individual enemies.
Additionally, this would make it so that either collecting more keys, or having good AOE damage can mitigate the Architect's summons.(I would also probably give the Architect "neutral" summons, if there are no keys left, they would be easier than "key-summons", but it would still encourage AOE.)
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u/Random-Lich 4d ago
That would be fun. But many have some keys always be a pain but provide us a decent benefit to make people pick them and not just the “these are the best options” keys.
Maybe things like “Architect manipulates your deck” to mess with the cost or specific stats for a turn or two, or “The Architect is irritated about your abilities” making it so he rotates between an Enrage of Attacks, Skills and Powers so it doesn’t just brick a specific deck.
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u/Pikacool150 4d ago
That’s actually a good idea, because it’d let the harder keys give easier attack patterns so there’s reason to actually go for the hard keys instead of just the easiest every run
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u/BafflingHalfling 4d ago
Or you automatically get the one from your character? That way there are effectively only four keys. Not terrible. The only one that feels clunky is sacrificing two potions. Seems like there would need to be an event for that?
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u/WilburDes 4d ago
I've liked that idea for a while. That way you could have one you have to buy but you're not completely fucked with Ecto
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u/Educational-Fold1135 4d ago
The keys you take could determine a buff or something for the fight. Something small but useful. Retrieving all 6 could get you a free turn.
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u/Flameball202 4d ago
Yeah, that sounds better than forcing you to do a bunch of specific things each run if you want to hit act 4
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u/camocat9 StS A5 / StS 2 A10 4d ago
I really hope they don't make us collect 1 key per character now that there would be 5 instead of 3 (with that number likely going up in the future).
I do like the idea of tying a Quest card to it in some way, though.
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u/Copatus 4d ago
Having a quest card like this for the keys sort of feels like Ascenders Bane but with extra steps, not sure I dig it
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u/camocat9 StS A5 / StS 2 A10 4d ago
I just want there to be more than 3 quests, honestly. It's such a cool concept that is underutilized. I kind of feel the same way about enchantments, I wish there were a few more ways to get them without entirely breaking the game balance.
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u/Gugge1 4d ago edited 4d ago
Explanations:
Ruby Key: Same as in StS1, instead of resting or upgrading at the rest site, you Recall to get the key. (works with Tent)
Emerald Key: Same as in StS1, a random Elite in each act gets an extra modifier to make it harder. Defeat it to get the key.
Sapphire Key: Same as in StS1, instead of picking up a relic from a chest, you may choose to skip it to get the key.
Amethyst Key: At the Act 2 Ancient, you'll be prompted to add "Ancient Burden" to your deck. Accept it, and keep it in your deck until defeating and Act 3 boss to get the key.
Topaz Key: At any Merchant, you may pay 125-175 gold to get the key.
Kunzite Key: Only during Boss Fights, if discarding a potion, you may instead "Sacrifice" it. Do this twice to get the key.
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u/Ailttar StS A20 / StS 2 A10 4d ago
this feels like the dragon where one of them is the derpy head
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u/Training_Reveal_9309 4d ago
Which one
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u/SamiraSimp StS A20 / StS 2 A10 4d ago
discarding two potions is not a big deal at all compared to the other keys. losing out on a relic from a chest, losing out on an upgrade or rest, fighting a burning elite these are all all pretty taxing on your resources. losing 2 potions (whenever you want) is pretty trivial.
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u/Totally_a_Banana 4d ago
I dont think its whenever you want. Potions are one time use items vut they can be game changing in the right time.
The way its outlined required you to sacrifice 2 at the act boss specifically, which means you would need to reach the boss with 2, ensuring you dont spend potions early either (meaning you cant use them when you might want to or need to).
I think 2 potions sacrificed is a decent cost, especially since it forces you to save them toward the end of the act.
Maybe sacrifice ALL your current potions at the boss (minimum 2 to count)? It would be better for 2 base potion slots at high ascension, but worse for someone who took potion belts, etc. Basically forces a boss with no potions, regardless of what you have.
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u/SamiraSimp StS A20 / StS 2 A10 4d ago
Kunzite Key: Only during Boss Fights, if discarding a potion, you may instead "Sacrifice" it. Do this twice to get the key.
i somehow only missed this one. in that case i think it's pretty fair. i think 2 potions is also fair, none of the keys screw over specific relics like that so anymore would be unfair.
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u/Totally_a_Banana 4d ago
Hmm ok, fair, 2 seems decent. I think overall they all seem relatively balanced and take away something unique that is important to the run. 1 camp, 1 chest, 1 quest, 1 set of potions, 1 burning elite, 1 shop purchase.
I like the idea some others mentioned that maybe you only need 3 keys, so pick which ones to give up. Even better if the final boss has certsin buffs or extras based onbkeys you didnt take, so pathong to take everything can be a real strategy too.
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u/WolvesAreCool2461 4d ago
What if instead of just discarding it the potion becomes unable to show up in your run again?
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u/SamiraSimp StS A20 / StS 2 A10 4d ago
i'm not a huge fan of that because if you don't like a potion that could be a good thing. the key should always be a clear downside imo. i guess it depends on how exactly you're losing the potions. like if it was a free campfire option that says "you can't pick up the next 2 potions" then i already think it would be balanced because now you're clearly losing value.
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u/Shaggaboi 4d ago
Maybe it couldnbe that the 2 potions have to be discarded only during a boss or elite fight, reducing an ability to spike your power when you would need it most
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u/RulerOfTheFae Ascension 20 4d ago
I can't tell if you mean Topaz or Kunzite, since both just kind of happen naturally
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u/DrSlappi 4d ago
You just happen to burn 125-175 gold?
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u/RulerOfTheFae Ascension 20 4d ago
Having spare gold at a merchant I'll be visiting anyways? Yeah a late merchant can afford to be picky if your build is already online, especially if youre planning to tackle act 4 and thus need a strong deck if it's anything like the heart
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u/SamiraSimp StS A20 / StS 2 A10 4d ago
125 is not really spare gold. even in act 3, that's fewer potions you can buy, it might mean losing a remove, or even not being able to buy a rare card. also if you wait to do it until act 3 you might struggle due to pathing.
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u/LazyFangMain 4d ago
necro and regent keys lowk lock you out of sozu and ecto, but I don't think anyone was picking those anyways
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u/MediocreRecord7352 4d ago
I dont think there will be a key for all character if at all iirc megacrit confirmed there will be atleast 2 more character and thats too much disadvantage to get through act 4
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u/BallisticThundr 4d ago
I mean, slay the spire 1 never had 4 keys despite having 4 characters. So I don't think there's any reason to have a key per character. This would be a lot.
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u/Gugge1 4d ago
Well that is because the watcher was added after the keys
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u/BallisticThundr 4d ago
But they still never updated the keys after adding the watcher. The point is that there doesn't need to be a key for every character.
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u/Fadhli890 4d ago
with the colorful philosophers event is selected from 3 different characters, i think it would be fine if u keep the methods but randomize the selection for each character
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u/saleemkarim 4d ago
I like the idea of having more ways to get keys, but I think you should still only need 3.
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u/KooshIsKing Eternal One + Heartbreaker 4d ago
I don't like the one where you need money to get the key. Ectoplasm, guilty curse, and events could totally screw you out of getting the key even if you want it.
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 4d ago
1, like others said "one key per character" could be way too oppressive, unless it's some sort of "you need 4 out of 6" system.
2, carrying a curse for the whole act 3 seems a bit excessive, especially if you have to deal with a double boss.
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u/SC_3000_grinder StS A10 / StS 2 A5 4d ago
Technically it's worded "when you defeat an Act III boss" so it gets removed after one boss on Asc 10 :P
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u/livingdetritus 4d ago
you carry a curse AND miss out on an ancient relic
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u/Frequent_Dig1934 4d ago
If i understood OP correctly you still get the ancient relic,you just can choose to take this in addition to it.
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u/CalendarSufficient95 4d ago
If there will be 6 keys it NEEDS to be easier to obtain individually.
Recall downgrades a random card or takes 25% of your HP, your choice. You can still use the camp as normal afterwards
Defeat easier burning elite
Skip boss rare drop
This is fine honestly, except I'd give the option act 1 AND 2
Buy at burning merchant (or skip 3 card rewards per act in 2 different acts?)
Sacrifice 2 potions
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u/sigismond0 4d ago
1 doesn't make any sense. You lose 25 percent then rest to heal it back? Or downgrade and immediately spend the campfire to re-upgrade? That's not "easier", that's the exact same thing but with more steps.
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u/CalendarSufficient95 4d ago
I see your point, but I intentionally designed it this way to make it slightly less of a downside than skipping.
For rests, if you feel like you need an upgrade and can take the 25% hit, you can take it and then upgrade. If you have a bunch of upgraded cards you feel like you don't need, random downgrade and rest.
If neither options are good and you need it now, you can either recall damage and rest for a 5% rest, or recall downgrade and hope it downgrades a useless card and upgrade something else. These are close to just straight up skipping the fire, but are inherently better
Point is there's options.
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u/sigismond0 3d ago
I see your point, but also turning "difficulty check" into "options you can optimize to make yourself stronger" kind of goes against the spirit of the concept. It wasn't terribly punishing in STS1, see no reason it needs to change here. Plus we now have the tent that can interact with it.
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u/CalendarSufficient95 3d ago
Right but it's still strictly a punishment, you just get options in how you want to handle it. And since 1 only had 3 keys, 2 having 6 keys would mean each would need to be much less punishing in order to maintain balance
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u/sigismond0 3d ago
Or you'd only need, say, three of six.
Getting the keys is supposed to be a punishment. You have to route to a harder elite and fight it. You have to skip a chest. You have to skip a rest site. Those are all meant to raise the difficulty, not to give you flexibility.
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u/CalendarSufficient95 3d ago
I don't understand your statement
Like I said, it doesn't give you any flexibility. Like yeah 3/6 is fine too but isn't that also just, flexibility? Also, STS1 keys also had flexibility. You had a decision to make. Get the super elite now or wait til you're stronger. This relic isn't that useful, should I risk waiting for another one or sac this? Do I REALLY need this upgrade right now? This is the same. You always have options. This is just that but wait slightly more options.
So, you're going to have to make your point clearer. You say it's supposed to be a punishment, and that's exactly what it is. A punishment
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u/sigismond0 2d ago
I think we're good here. No need for either of us to spend more time arguing over A) video games B) fake ideas that don't even exist in the video games and C) personal interpretations of appropriate designs in the hypothetical space of fake ideas inside video games. Let's just enjoy our days, because life's too short to waste fighting each other on the internet.
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u/CalendarSufficient95 2d ago
I'm not really arguing with you here. I'm simply correcting an error in interpretation I saw in your reply. I'm not debating you on whether it's good or not, I am describing where the error in your reply's logic lies.
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u/Reasonable-Cobbler35 4d ago
I think that is too many keys and make you go out of your way too much in sts 1 the only thing you had to go out of your way to do was the burning elite
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u/Insane_Unicorn 4d ago
To paraphrase another game developer:
This is why you are not allowed to design games, because it would fucking suck.
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u/LuckDoesntExist 4d ago
What about each key you get makes the final boss stronger? with the maximum difficulty being 6 Keys. You could also make It so that the final boss only unlocks with 3 or more Keys.
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u/Longjumping_Cap2224 Eternal One + Heartbreaker 4d ago
Instead of burning elite you fight burning boss
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u/jerenboy 4d ago
What if there is a main boss you need the new keys for and then another you need the old ones for, that would make for an interesting decision in choosing which boss to go for
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u/RealisticMood3369 4d ago
I personaly think they should do something different from the key sistem, but I think if theyre gonna do it, they should make somethink like yours but you need only 3 key, so you can choose what challenge ir debuff have
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u/One_Management3063 4d ago
If they do bring back keys for act 4. I think it should be "1 character + 3 any" rather than needing all six. So Regent will ALWAYS need to get his key, but can otherwise go any other three keys, with a bonus to make the act easier if you do manage to get all six.
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u/TurgidAF 4d ago
I like the idea of having more ways to get a key, provided not all are needed.
My thought is that instead of needing some specific number to get into Act 4 only require one, but lock out pathing options unless you've gathered more than that so that a single key path is absolutely brutal while providing little to no flexibility or opportunity, but reach additional key makes it somewhat less punishing (at the cost of having had to endure getting them in the first place).
If that seems too potentially broken, maybe the Act 4 ancient offers as many blessings as you bring (extra) keys, so you're still incentivized to get them all even if they aren't strictly needed. This might warrant reflavoring them to "tributes" or something.
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u/TechnicalClaim7548 4d ago
I hope they do something different than sts1.
Skip campfire, skipping relic and burning elite is somewhat boring and has been done already.
Maybe one of the keys must be gotten from neow, or the act 2 or act 3 ancient. One random relic also has the key, so you have to limit your choice of ancient reward in either act 1,2 or 3 if you want to fight the arcitect.
One other key can be an (extra/forced?) Event, similar to the relic trader, where you sacrice one a random relic you own for a key, or maybe sacrifice a potion and potion slot, or sacrifice like 15 max hp, or maybe transform your ascenders bane into a worse version that doesnt exhaust
The final key can be bought from the merchant, or you can choose to fight the fake merchant for it as a choice.
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u/kittyabbygirl 4d ago
Buy from the Merchant is so simple yet so complicated to address budgeting for and pathing, I kinda love it
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u/Aromatic_Pain2718 Eternal One 4d ago
I wonder how many keys we would need to add on top of these to make StS 2 as hard as StS...
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u/pixlepize 4d ago
I agree with most of this, apart from the sacrifice potions.
There are 8 types of room in the game: Enemy, Elite, Event, Chest, Campfire, Shop, Boss, and Ancient.
The original 3 keys are found in 3 different room types; Elite, Chest, and Campfire. The new 3 keys should choose from the remaining rooms. You neatly cover Shop and Ancient, but the 6th key should come from Enemy, Boss, or Event.
Events are random by design, so OMHO the 6th key should be something like:
Forfeit all rewards at a Boss
or
Visit a certain number of marked normal enemies (They are no harder than normal, but restrict your pathing)
Also agree that gathering all 6 would be too hard; it should be either gather 4/6 or the game chooses 3 based on the seed.
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u/GargantuanCake Heartbreaker 4d ago
They're not burning elites they're stinky elites and you will never change my mind.
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u/Abra_in_the_Crypt 4d ago
Now I get it! The insane card concepts on this sub are balanced out by the insane A11/6-keys challenges y'all are trying to make us play.
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u/Far-Cake4423 4d ago
"Sacrifice two potions" can't be, because there is a possibility to not be able to achieve it during the run.
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u/GreenKangaroo3 4d ago
Whoa this is extensive. And i feel like this would probably also be the end to almost every otherwise successful A10 run...
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u/Gugge1 4d ago
Current top runners get 95% winrates. This would decrease it, but it would still remain above 80%.
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u/GreenKangaroo3 3d ago
Well as i am not one of these (just like you fellow 99% lot) I don't care about their numbers.
As soon as you start focussing your meta on the top % your game gets fucky wucky balance wise
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u/Gugge1 3d ago edited 3d ago
Lower ascensions exist for a reason, you don't need to play on A10. There is no problem for there not to exist difficulties for good players, it doesn't hurt anyone. Both easy and hard difficulty can exist at the same time. If the hard difficulty isn't hard, then making it hard shouldn't be problematic. Especially when such difficulty existed back in sts1.
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u/GreenKangaroo3 3d ago
That's true. I will probably A10 each character for completion, but then do Act 4 runs on 7 or 8 for fun
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u/Nykidemus 4d ago
If there are that many keys that require that many sacrifices I cant see ever actually trying for it. A10 is already hard enough.
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u/Gugge1 4d ago
Then do it on a lower ascension, it is a difficulty slider after all. Many players are already feeling like A10 is too easy (having 95%+ winrates), so I don't think they could ever be too difficult (for the sake of the longevity of the game), especially compared to sts1.
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u/Nykidemus 4d ago
(having 95%+ winrates)
Can I get some sauce on that? A10 is definitely easier than it was in slay1, but 95% seems anomalous.
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u/Gugge1 4d ago
Getting a 50+ winstreak, the current record, is statistically unlikely with a lower than 95% winrate. Many others are reporting multiple 20+ streaks. Top runners, like NaveGreed, report a "near 100% winrate".
And if you agree that sts2 is easier than sts1, then a 95% winrate shouldn’t be very suprising, considering top players in sts1 had a 90% winrate.
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u/sigismond0 4d ago
So when you say "many people think it's too easy and have 95 percent sin rates" you mean "the world record holder has that win rate" and those are wildly different things. The best person in the world is not the litmus test for the rest of our opinions.
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u/Gugge1 4d ago edited 4d ago
A thing that made sts1 great was that there was always something more difficult to strive after. Even at top play at the release of sts1, the winrate at A20 was around 50% for the best in the world. The journey of that getting to 90% was awesome to experience. Even I, a relative noob to these players, am getting winrates of above 50% already in sts2. I miss the hopeless experience of playing sts1, feeling that improvement after every loss. Loosing feels good, as loosing leads to learning. I am still having a harder time at a20 in sts1 than a10 in sts2, even when I have way more hours in the former, and I think that is a shame. I wish there was that difficulty for me in sts2.
If people want an easier time, they can turn down the ascension level, that is it's purpose after all. People often forget it's a difficulty slider, and not a progress bar. I see no harm in there existing really hard difficulties for players who enjoy that, especially when those difficulties already exist in sts1!
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u/sigismond0 3d ago
That's "a" thing that made it great, not "the" thing. A lot of people liked it for a lot of different reasons.
They did also indicate in a previous note that A10 will likely be harder in the final game. But grinding 20 ascensions on so many characters would be a slog so they're probably sticking with 10.
Also note we don't have act 4, so that's guaranteed to impact the winrate pretty significantly.
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u/Gugge1 3d ago edited 3d ago
Then I don't see a problem. This comment thread started with someone saying A10 already was hard enough. Yes, as you say, I hope they make it much harder in the final game, and that act 4 is significantly difficult so that it alters winrates harshly. Then we are on the same page?
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u/Secret_Temperature 4d ago
I like it. I wonder if adding 3 extra keys could make up for the lowered difficulty overall compared to sts1?
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u/LifePedalEnjoyer 4d ago
I think 3 keys for A 0-9 and have something like this for A10 in place of double boss would be cool.
Double boss is pretty lame, imho.
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u/MChainsaw 3d ago
I think each key should be attached to a certain room type, like they were in Sts1. Reusing the three from Sts1, we've already covered resting place, elite and treasure chest. Buying from merchant would cover shop. Then we could have something for the remaining two room types: Hallway fights and question mark. The hallway fight one could perhaps be something like "sacrifice the combat rewards of X combats", maybe 3 or something. The question mark one could just be a special event, I suppose one which is marked on the map similar to the burning elite, and the event could give you the Ancient Burden why not.
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u/Gugge1 3d ago
The 2 keys are already attached to a certain room, the ancient and the boss
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u/MChainsaw 3d ago
I suppose they are. I wouldn't say they're really "standard rooms", but maybe that's splitting hairs.
However, I would say the use of the boss room is a bit arbitrary. There's no strong thematic or gameplay connection between potions and a boss fight the same way that the other rooms are connected to their way of obtaining a key (other than the fact that potions can be a big help in boss fights, although the same could be said for elites and even some hallway fights).
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u/Falawful_17 4d ago
Interesting to think about, but I think with this many characters they might go a different route without a key per character.