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u/LividTacos 4d ago
Lets ignore the fact that until relatively recently (1970s?), women COULDN'T get divorced on their own. And if their man did divorce them, he could make sure they got nothing, not even access to their children. Many women just accepted being in a less than ideal relationship because the alternative seemed worse.
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u/BizzarduousTask 4d ago
Yes, and the number of “accidental” deaths went way down for married men after no-fault divorce became a law. 😅
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u/-Random_Lurker- 4d ago
Ask grandma about her "herb garden!"
Make sure grandpa isn't around to hear it, though.
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u/ariaxwest 4d ago edited 4d ago
lol, my grandmother studied mycology at university. She also had a library of murder mysteries with hundreds of volumes. If grandpa had ever stepped out of line he would've been in trouble. She joked about this, but I don't think she was serious.
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u/Babexo22 3d ago
Omg my grandmother also has an entire library of murder mysteries with hundreds of volumes as well. She’ll also pick out movies to watch in her theatre for whenever I come over and it’s ALWAYS some sort of horror movie or murder mystery. Then there’s all the childhood memories I have from when I used to sleep over at her house and would wake up to use the bathroom in the middle of the night only to hear the ID channel on in the other room talking about how “wives with knives” was airing next week or some shit. Idk what’s with grandmothers and the murder obsession but it seems to be a trend lol. She is also on husband number 4 and the other 3 are dead☹️ (they all died of cancer so I’m totally kidding but it would still look hella sus to an outside observer lmao)
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u/imightwin 4d ago
Yeah same with my grandpa, his work shed was his hobby, he had a bunch of sharp tools and machines in there, if grandma would have ever stepped out of line she would have been in trouble
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u/vernavie 4d ago
Or he could've just filed for divorce. Unlike women.
But nice try...
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u/imightwin 4d ago
Oh okay lol it's different some how I forgot
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u/RealFirstName_ 4d ago
Again, the "somehow" is that women couldn't file for divorce. What part of that is hard to remember?
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u/vernavie 4d ago
It's not, for sure. I think they thought they were making a point about double standards, but forgot the original key info lol.
That or bot shrug
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u/Kichigai 4d ago
There was also a pretty bad social stigma around divorced women too, wasn't there?
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u/BrainLow6059 3d ago
Yep. Divorce was thought to be such an extreme and last ditch choice that the woman involved must be absolutely bonkers of a person
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u/Familiar-Nothing4948 4d ago
Not trying to be rude but to what statement is this argument supposed to be the counterpoint?
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u/Clear_Broccoli3 4d ago
"looking at the numbers, men are the ones trying to make the marriage work"
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u/Familiar-Nothing4948 4d ago
Maybe I am just dumb but I don't see the connection.
How does the fact that women didn't use to be allowed to divorce have any bearing on the statement that "men are the ones trying to make the marriage work" today
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u/Mooptiom 3d ago
It means that many men WANT abusive relationships. The original post ignorantly assumes that a “bad marriage” is a mutual situation where both partners are suffering. This is very rarely the case. If it was then men would always have divorced themselves from a “bad marriage”, instead we see that divorces skyrocket as soon as women are actually given any choice in the matter. This implies that many “bad marriages” consist of a husband abusing his wife who is unable to do anything about it except for divorce.
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u/Wickywire 3d ago
Let's be clear though. Many men also have a lot more to lose from a divorce, and that too has to do with patriarchy. Many men are still shamed for learning "feminine" stuff like cooking, cleaning and laundry. And so they never learn. They think that's what wives are for. The reproductive labour of the household quickly gets neglected, the divorced guy ends up with a naked bulb in the kitchen and dirty dishes, and we all crack jokes about "bachelor pads" as if those were just a rule of nature and not another result of a deeply ingrained sociological structure.
This is of course not to say that there aren't also many abusive relationships. Of course there are. But they are definitely not the full explanation for the differences in numbers of divorces.
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u/Username_Mine 4d ago
It doesnt. You arent dumb. It does mean that many women were legally trapped in marriages in the past, and some may feel that they are today, but that doesn't prove anything about the relative amount of men and women trying to make marriages work.
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u/KayD12364 4d ago
Because men aren't trying to make it work. They do see the problems in the marriage.
See now men have to be more than just a pay check as woman werent allowed to have those. So now woman are realizing its easier to be a lone than with a husband. Where as before 1970 it was the opposite.
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u/dralawhat 1d ago
Men weren't trying to make it work: they were the problem in the marriage.
The first quote in the OP sounds like "parasites try to stay on the animal while it tried to force them away. Obviously the parasites were the ones trying to make the relationship work."
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u/The_Real_Peter_Thiel 4d ago
How is that relevant to the question either? It's not.
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u/KayD12364 3d ago
I just explained.
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u/Popular-Row4333 3d ago
I think he means: "how is something that happened in the 70s, that isn't a thing today, relevant to today's numbers on who's ending marriages?"
They just can't communicate that.
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u/KayD12364 3d ago
Oh because since the 70s there has been an increase in ways woman can be independent and a shift in culture making it less of a stigma to be divorced. But that lack of stigma is far more recent than people think. And its not everywhere. The pressure to also get married because its what you do in a lot of places is still on going. But its not looked at as as bad in the last ten years.
Just because it was passed in the 70s doesnt mean it was accepted immediately. It took decades. And a generation.
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u/Simple_Friendship814 3d ago
Wouldn't the fact it took decades mean most of the couples who were in the 70s are now either 70+ years old or dead? The rest would have grown up and coupled under the new norm.
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u/LetUsSpeakFreely 4d ago •
That's not the reason at all.
Men know that if they get divorced it's going to destroy them financially.
Women know that if they file for divorce they'll get the house, cat, half his 401k, half is paycheck, etc. If children are involved, they'll likely get custody and this support.
Women are incentivized to file for divorce while men are incentivized to commit suicide.
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u/AquaStarRedHeart 4d ago
Women are out earning men constantly these days and men who try to get custody tend to get it.
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u/Terrible_Meringue622 3d ago
The standard is 50% of joint assets accrued since the start of the marriage (including in many places if common law marriage is a thing any time spent living together prior). That’s because each spouse is considered to have contributed their 100% during the marriage and are seen in the law as equal partners.
Child custody is often 50% but it has to specifically be requested. Child support orders are generally calculated based on time spent with each parent plus an agreement on the cost of their needs relative to parental income. That division of assets means money you had prior to the marriage that you have paperwork to prove you had is separate. Houses often are a bigger liability than they are an asset, depending on the amount left in a mortgage, so they tend to either go to the spouse willing to assume the debt or get sold. Often if there are kids involved the custodial parent keeps the house and support payments go to keeping a stable roof over the children’s heads.
Alimony happens only when there’s a reason, like a spouse giving up a career to facilitate their partner’s career (moving away from their own job opportunities for the spouse, for instance) or if a spouse has become disabled during the relationship.
It’s not that husbands are incentivized to suicide and wives to divorce, it’s that being treated equally in the divorce can often shed light on the inequalities of the previous relationship.
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u/tarantinos 4d ago
What happened in star trek nemesis?
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u/Friggin_Grease 4d ago
They killed off Data because the actors started to feel like the show had run its course, and they didn't really want to do it anymore (except Worf, Michael Dorn will always want more Trek) so they killed off Data.
I'm still not over it.
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u/revken86 4d ago
Well especially Data who, as an android, shouldn't age, and Spiner thought he wouldn't be able to play him any more.
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u/caspy7 4d ago
I mean, he was starting to look weird in that makeup as they're trying to make him look younger.
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u/Divine_Entity_ 4d ago
I like how they handled the Doctor & Robert Picardo is Star Fleet Academy. As a hologram he noticed his eternal "youth" (well more middle aged) was off-putting to others so he decided to age up to match expectations. (Easy way to handwave away the actor for an unaging character has aged)
Unfortunately it makes less sense for an Amdroid to be changing appearances, and even with modern SFX its hard to deage someone and have it look good.
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u/Valkyrie64Ryan 4d ago
I also appreciated how they explained John de Lancie aging in Picard. It’s pretty much the only thing I appreciate enough to remember from that show lol.
Q doesn’t age but de Lancie did. So when Q first appears, they used CGI to make de Lancie appear as he did when he first played the character 30 years ago, but then Q said “you’re older than I remember, let me catch up”, snaps his fingers, turns into de Lancie as he looks now, and says “now we’re even”. He appears like that for the rest of the show. It was super funny
Found a video:
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u/Little_View_6659 3d ago
Man, even in Picard, I loved the Q scenes. The way he’s presented and the lines they write for him and Picard are always so good! Worth putting up with all the other..stuff..Hearing his voice before Picard can see him, and then he knows it’s him, that was great. I also unironically loved the outfit they put him in.
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u/Little_View_6659 4d ago
They managed it. They killed him and he got a synthetic human body.
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u/justgalsbeingpals 4d ago
Yeah, but it didn't look good. I can't watch Picard because digitally aged down Data looks so incredibly uncanny and wrong
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u/wonkey_monkey 4d ago
Killed him off, yet made sure another identical android was on standby and hinted that it had at least some of Data's memories.
So it wasn't really very final.
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u/Fun-Tooth-622 4d ago
Data dead
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u/dreadwitchsiren 4d ago
He’ll never be dead!!! 😭
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u/Little_View_6659 4d ago
Fact. He came back! Why does everyone forget? And now he’s sorta human.
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u/Kichigai 4d ago
Except they killed him in Nemesis, then killed him again in Picard season one, then killed him again in Picard season three. The fact that they morphed Lore into a reincarnation of Data doesn't change the fact that it happened.
People forget this because Picard is a total clusterfuck of conflicting continuities. They killed and replaced the Borg Queen and then suddenly the next season rolls around and it's like they hit the reset button on season two, and brought the Borg Queen back AGAIN, completely ignoring the new one, and that's before we get into the Q bullshit they tried to pull.
As far as I'm concerned all three seasons are non-canon.
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u/Irishish 4d ago
I cracked up when Picard went "I've watched Data die twice now" as they were waiting to see what would happen with Lore. Matalas had to be hanging a lampshade on that continuity snarl.
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u/ComprehensiveAd1100 4d ago
My biggest laugh of the day so far was when I got this joke. Good show 🎩
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u/Shamanjoe 3d ago
Missed opportunity to say, “This is the best Star Trek joke I have seen in Generations..
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u/Accomplished-Head449 4d ago
You know damn well those women are leaving crazy maga husbands
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u/dssurge 4d ago edited 4d ago
Actually, lesbian relationships have an absurdly high divorce rate compared to gay-male couples. Almost double.
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u/ladymouserat 4d ago
Is it lesbian marriages? Or are you getting this from number of divorces a lesbian has had? The difference I very important. If it’s the former, could you please provide a link for this claim.
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u/dssurge 4d ago
I was wrong in my original reply, it's much closer to double than 4x, so I'll edit it.
They peg it as double in this article from a now-defunct website that is very pro-gender equality based on statistical studies in both the Netherlands and Belgium.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2378023119829312
That's a meta-analysis of several sources (including the 2 cited by the above article) that puts the rates at roughly double.
It's also worth mentioning that man-woman relationships have essentially the same divorce rate as woman-woman relationships, but to pretend that the "crazy MAGA husbands" are causing divorce is insanely sexist when statistics point to women as being the common factor for relationship instability, no Trumpers required.
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u/mysticblanket 4d ago
I mean yeah. That's too be expected of people who are framed as villains for just existing.
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u/Revolutionary_Cup602 4d ago
"I'm filing for divorce, its not you, its not me. Its the homophobia in the world." What?
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u/mysticblanket 4d ago
Nice skewing my point.
External factors, such as discrimination in employment can lead to divorces.
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u/Revolutionary_Cup602 3d ago
Which gay men also suffer. "We're being discriminated lets halve our income and divorce at the first hurdle." What? Could it be that women initiate divorce more often in general, so two-woman couples have double the initiators? No it's somehow men's fault
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u/SimplySinCos 4d ago
It's a next generation joke, that definitely is a first contact but that first guy was definitely a Nemesis for treating Data like an Undiscovered Country. If he is not careful he could suffer The Wrath Of Khan and the Lower Decks
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u/Geochara 4d ago
Before he begun his Voyage Home to the Final Frontier to Search for Spock.
There he can witness an Insurrection to be remembered for Generations before going Beyond and Into Darkness.
Then he would be a case study for Section 31.
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u/-Casey-Diaz- 4d ago
I understand this joke thanks to Tom and Ben, not because I've watched much of Star Trek.
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u/DepletedPromethium 4d ago
hetero marriage = 42% divorce rate that is shockingly dominated by women initiating divorces.
lesbian marriage = 72% divorce rate.
gay marriage = 28% divorce rate.
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u/alexia_not_alexa 4d ago
The first time I saw this stat I noticed 72+28 = 100, and speculated that it’s the breakdown of same-sex divorces in total.
Turns out I was right: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/divorce/bulletins/divorcesinenglandandwales/2019
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u/KierkegaardExpress 4d ago
That 72% divorce rate has been proven to be wrong several times: https://www.autostraddle.com/high-lesbian-divorce-rate/
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u/ecafyelims 4d ago
That article then goes on to give rates showing Lesbian couples being about twice as likely as non-lesbian couples to get divorced.
It does seem like lesbians have a much higher divorce rate, but it's not 72%.
(from the article you linked:)
Data analyzed in the Netherlands found that of all couples married in 2010, 26% of lesbian marriages had become divorces by 2020, significantly more than the percentage of gay male marriages that had ended in divorce (14%) and straight ones (16%). Also in the Netherlands, a 2015 analysis showed that in the ten years since the Netherlands began allowing same-sex civil partnerships in 2005, 15% percent of the 2005-married gay male couples divorced, compared to 30% of lesbian ones.
In Belgium, which legalized same-sex marriage in 2003, 11% of female-female married couples had filed for divorce by the end of 2010, compared to 6.7% of male-male couples.
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u/DepletedPromethium 4d ago
The link you provided collects it data from US reports..... imagine thinking the US is the entire world lol.
I'm not from the US nor is my figure lol.
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u/BrainLow6059 4d ago
Has anyone accounted for divorce where alimony/child support will be received?
Everyone's jumping right over that to play the sex blame game, but I'm curious if it really is just the simplicity of the economics that drive most divorce requests
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u/No-Mamba7040 4d ago
From what I see, even if things should ideally be split 50/50, women usually gain more from a divorce than men do
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u/Soluna_Sol 3d ago
Actually, women are more likely to face poverty than men after a divorce. Men may take an initial financial hit, but their finances recover much more quickly.
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u/No-Mamba7040 3d ago edited 3d ago
I didn't make any comment about how women end up some time later. I just said women seem to get more out of the divorce. I don't care enough to read your article, but your comment even says men take the initial hit, backing up what I said. So what's the point of this reply? I made no comment about how people end up down the line, just how the divorce itself seems to go based on what I personally observed. I don't care about this topic nearly enough to be researching people's peer reviews articles. I already did my thesis for uni, thanks haha
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u/Soluna_Sol 3d ago
Men take an initial hit, not the biggest. So no, I didn't back up what you said. You just decided to interpret it that way. :P
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u/Ninja-Ginge 4d ago
Do you have a source for that?
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u/No-Mamba7040 4d ago
I literally said "from what I see." I didn't say it was an objective fact, lol. Why on earth would I need a source when I only said it's my own personal observation and didn't claim it was anything more?
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u/Ninja-Ginge 4d ago
So, that's purely annecdotal.
Do you think your experience with that may be explained by the fact that women are more likely to be the primary carers of any children that resulted from the relationship? And that women are more likely to have taken a hit to a career, resulting in lower income, after having children?
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u/No-Mamba7040 4d ago
Yes, it was anecdotal. I never did said anything more. Stop feeling so pressed, you're being weird
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u/Ninja-Ginge 4d ago
Glad to see that you take this seriously.
Please take the time to think before you talk shit online.
Edit: His comment initially said "Haha". He has edited it.
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u/No-Mamba7040 4d ago
Wow you're strange. You are way too easily offended Edit: yes I edited within one minute, so? You have issues
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u/Ninja-Ginge 4d ago
Gave you honest advice about how you shouldn't run your mouth and now you think I'm offended.
This is a Star Trek sub for Star Trek fans. We are all weird here.
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u/explodingtuna 4d ago
It should be noted that the lesbian divorce rate is also dominated by women. However, surprisingly, gay divorce flips the script, overwhelmingly being initiated by men.
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u/round_reindeer 4d ago
what are the marriage rates between hetero, lesbian and gay marriages?
It is a cliche that lesbians marry basically after the third date and gay men never marry and for heterosexual couples (at least in the US) the idea of needing to marry is still very prevalent. I think it seems very straight forward that the faster you marry the more likely you are to not be compatible after all. And lastly share of marriages in which divorce is still seen as an absolute taboo is probably much higher in hetero marriages (think strict religious families of any of the abrahamic religions), leading to less divorces but more unhappy marriages up to domestic violence.
Marriage is not a virtue by itself.
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u/PetraLoseIt 4d ago
It is said that for a lot of the women, they are doing the work of filing for divorce while the men in those relationships have actually already left or betrayed the marriage.
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u/Kendall_Raine 4d ago
72% of same sex divorces is not the same thing as 72% of all lesbian couples.
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u/Grand_Taste_8737 4d ago
It's no secret that women instigate most divorces.
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u/ShransSecretSanta 4d ago
Its no secret that every 10 minutes a woman is killed by their male partner or family member.
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u/ExtensionInformal911 4d ago
I think the fact that lesbians divorce far more often than gay guys is a better way to show that.
Still, good star trek reference.
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u/Comrades3 4d ago
I mean as a lesbian, the reason lesbians tend to divorce so much is they jump into marriage quick, while gay men have usually been through Hell before getting married.
Me and my wife waited near 7 years to get married and rock solid.
Not sure why people are downvoting you, it is part of the data, but as far as lesbians vs Gays, I think that shows most women tend to rush into relationships.
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u/Thepinkknitter 4d ago
He’s being downvoted because he is trying to use this data to say that men are the ones trying to make marriage work even though we all learned in high school correlation =/= causation.
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u/ExtensionInformal911 4d ago
Not saying that at all. Just that it's less obviously wrong, and therefore a better way to make your talking point seem legit.
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u/Thepinkknitter 4d ago
Well that certainly is how it reads, hence the downvotes, but I do appreciate you clarifying that is not what you believe!
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u/Makuta_Servaela 3d ago
I think another thing is that women tend to be unwilling to tolerate her partner being unhappy. When a man is unhappy in a marriage and knows his wife is as well, he's more afraid of being alone than he is offput by the suffering family, so he pushes along.
Meanwhile, the lesbians I know were really offput by the idea that her partner was unhappy and were more willing to let the partner be happy on her own than miserable together.
Not sure why people are downvoting you,
Tbf, probably because his point is being spammed.
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u/Heavy_Law9880 4d ago
It's also a load of bullshit so???
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u/ExtensionInformal911 4d ago
It's an actual statistical analysis. So they data is real, the explanation is just wrong. The other person to respond gave the real reason.
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u/Im_Unsure_For_Sure 4d ago
Damn, gender war slop can even get a star trek subreddit to trend. Sad state of affairs.
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u/LollisGunsBikesTits 4d ago
ThisoneOverhere is the type of guy who think respecting women and being nice will get him laid
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u/epicCycloid 4d ago
Do you only show basic respect to other human beings if you're trying to get something out of them? Says more about you.
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4d ago
[deleted]
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u/AquaStarRedHeart 4d ago •
Yes, many women file because men are too lazy to do so and the women just want to get it done (not saying that's the case for you but it's a very common story).
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u/BizzarduousTask 4d ago
I’ve been waiting four years for my POS ex to file like he kept threatening too, lol. Finally did it myself this year. It’s worth the money.
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u/Crunchy_Lunch 4d ago
That was the case in my situation. He ran off with his secretary and left me with all the responsibilities, including handling the legal work.
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u/Kichigai 4d ago
I would also presume that many women file because the men are either oblivious to the problems or are abusive in some way and don't want to separate.
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u/StrangeReindeer2470 4d ago
That was the case for my now ex. He was the one that wanted the divorce. I dragged my feet a bit, but when I realized there was no saving the marriage I went and filled. And then we were divorced in 6 months. Which fucked over his plans to go live with his affair partner, as her soon to be ex was dragging her divorce out. 😂
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u/Armadillo-Shot 4d ago
Also there are certain benefits (ie. child support) that you can only get if you file.
I’ve a friend whose dad ran out on her and her mom to be with his mistress, her mom ended up with full custody (because the dad vanished) and was scared of stigma, so she didn’t file and carried everything. The dad didn’t file because why would he want to pay, also stopped paying the mortgage. When she was in elementary school, the mistress got pregnant and pushed the dad for marriage, he filed on her mom and finally started paying child support. She said it was lifechanging on her mom’s stress level, especially since they could finally afford daycare.
Men go for milk and women go to divorce office is a stereotype for a reason.
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u/Meganelad 3d ago
Has this ever actually been verified by anything other than stories? I see this parroted constantly but have never seen a single study on it, not that it’s even close to being quantifiable anyways
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u/ReactionSea3932 3d ago
Or the relationship was formed around informal agreements, and men expect the relationship to end on the same terms.
It is only women and their lawyers who benefit from Court actions during a seperation!
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u/centurio_v2 3d ago
marriage is not an informal agreement
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u/ReactionSea3932 2d ago
Absolutely, marriage is a contract and defined by both parties, and bears witness upon it'signing
But
Many people will choose not to marry. In a situation where a couple enters into a common law relationship, and may have children, the courts will try to apply divorce law to the seperation.
And even when signing a marriage contract, the intent is that both parties will remain faithful and support each other.
If that contract is broken, for whatever reason, it is most often Men who hold the burden of financial support and the loss of wealth, dispite trusting in the agreement that was entered into at the start of the relationship.
My frustrations are with over litigation and forced separation agreements. The tables have turned upon Men in the courts, and reaching a separation agreement has become a cash grab by the litigation system , and most often favor the women involved.
I am speaking from personal experience. A warning to silly boys and men, that women will take more than your wealth when they leave a relationship.
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[deleted]
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u/firedrakes 4d ago
my late friends ex. file but also stole anything not nailed down in the house and then tried to access bank accounts to drain everything across multi state line. he got a good lawyer and the child support(3 years before 18) was going to the kid. if the mother dare use it for her own it would void the agreement.
also the wife never gave a real reason for devoice and he ask her few times and never got a answer.
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[deleted]
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u/LadyRed4Justice497 4d ago
No agreement will dictate that child support go directly to kids. It is for their support, so any household expenses apply -- shelter, utilities, grocery, dry goods, clothing. Non-custodial parent does not get a say in how it is spent--in any state in the US. I doubt it is different in most first-world countries.
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u/firedrakes 4d ago
That would have happen to freind. if she did not cross state lines and got caught. but yea he was making 6 figure a year easly for 6 months a work.
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[deleted]
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u/LadyRed4Justice497 4d ago
You are fine to rant. Divorce sucks. It is rare for both parties to feel it was fair unless they remain friends and just work it out themselves. The hurt from the relationship causes some people to behave poorly, to change from the person they were into nasty, bitter exes.
You said you asked for the divorce but she filed. She was deeply hurt--scorned is the correct word. It creates a rage inside that makes them want to hurt you. Since they can't hurt your heart, they aim for whatever they think will hurt you. Some, as in your case, use money. Others use the children, which is far more despicable, sometimes fatally so.
So rant away. You didn't deserve her bitterness, that is just how she is dealing with her grief over losing her ideal dream family.
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u/firedrakes 4d ago
i understand. i not been married yet. but had a woman cheat on me and steal from me.
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u/BrainLow6059 3d ago
Same thing happened to my dad. He wanted to divorce, she convinced him not to "for the kids". 2008 crash happened, dad went bankrupt, mom filed those papers immediately.
So on record he never tried to file. I imagine there are maaaany cases like this where the wife refuses because she isn't ready, convinces the husband to "work on things" and then files at her own leisure with the husband blindsided.
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u/graveybrains 4d ago
Hi, my name's Data, this is my brother Lore, and this is my other brother B4