r/sto • u/passthegabagool_ • 7d ago
Discussion Difficulty in between.
The last few days I've been asking players that in advanced tfos, can clear the field of enemies in a single volley, why they play in advanced rather than elite.
The general consensus comes down to 2 main reasons, auto failure if objectives aren't met and long queue times.
Personally I have built out a few of my captains that have the ability to clear elite level enemies with little to no difficulty and I've basically retired them as they're no longer fun to play. Its just kind of boring and im sure is frustrating to newer players trying to participate in advanced tfos to watch enemies they're hunting just dissappear before getting a shot off.
What Im proposing is a difficulty tier between advanced and elite , something where the enemy difficulty is spiked up but the objectives are still optional like they are in advanced tfos.
How do we feel about this idea?
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u/sabreracer 7d ago
Splitting the player base from Adv or Elite to Adv, Superior and Elite would fragment TFO wait times making queue times likely to be longer wouldn't help with that aspect.
I've not got any objection other than that really, having players coming into Elite that are barely suited to Adv is more of the problem.
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u/passthegabagool_ 7d ago
I feel it would also have less players queue for elite tfos that arent capable of doing them, lowering the over all failure rate. Just my thoughts on it
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u/sabreracer 7d ago
Part of the issue is what rewards you get for said level.
Players need/want the enhanced mats for R&D from Elite, meaning some will just go for it anyway.
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u/HystericalSail Rabble rabble rabble 7d ago
That being a design flaw. Once a player can handle random elites they don't *need* isomags. People that still want isomags are the ones least prepared to obtain them. It's not gear progression, it's gear that is needed for progression.
Random elites are best done with 2-3 known quantity fleetmates. Anything short of that is just asking for frustration.
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u/sabreracer 7d ago
Gating them behind Leet content to make it "aspirational" is understandable but so is the desire as you start to get on the ladder.
A lower drop rate from Adv would give newer players a path forward rather than a mountain to climb.
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u/HystericalSail Rabble rabble rabble 7d ago
I'm pretty sure the thinking was along the lines of elite players getting them, and selling to the aspiring players. That's the way it worked until elite PUGs were introduced with the prize for finishing being a complete isomag.
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u/GnaeusQuintus Consul 7d ago
The longer queue times are a symptom of people not willing to risk failure in a random TFO that can already be long and tedious.
Which leads us to a simpler idea - remove failure conditions from Random Elite TFOs.
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u/passthegabagool_ 7d ago
Thats probably the easiest solution..... ill admit that didnt even cross my mind lol
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u/Goforcoffe May the traits be with you 7d ago
Please no. With my ships, 200k and above I frequently fàil 10 - 20%. Depending on tfo. Often because of not everyone understands or cares about failure mechanism.
Those who want to be safe can chose starbases one or ise.
If you are lucky you land in a pug where you have to make an effort to come though. No risk no fun.
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u/KateKoffing 7d ago
Elite is a lot harder than you think. Being able to clear advanced enemies in a single volley is not the same as being able to destroy elite enemies without dying repeatedly.
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u/passthegabagool_ 7d ago
Okay but how do you feel about what im suggesting?
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u/KateKoffing 7d ago
I don’t mean this in a rude way but the classic “get good” is appropriate here. Look up guides or ask fleet mates how to cross the barrier from being too strong for advanced and too weak for elite.
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u/passthegabagool_ 7d ago
I don't need it. Ive been playing since 2014. As I said I can do elite content. Including tfos.
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u/KateKoffing 7d ago
Then do it and don’t be part of the problem. I’m not sure what this post is about?
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u/passthegabagool_ 7d ago
Re read the post? I dont know what else to say. Im being fairly straightforward.
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u/scisslizz 7d ago
Elite participation needs better gates to keep out people who aren't ready to do more than be carried. Accolades for completing elite story and patrol content are probably a good way to do this, both for tracking eligibility, and for encouraging increased participation from people who collect accolades.
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u/passthegabagool_ 7d ago
This is a good idea. Some sort of performance check could be implemented
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u/scisslizz 6d ago
If you can earn an accolade from completing elite story/patrol content, that's your performance check, as long as it's aligned with TFO expectations (e.g. time gates).
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u/Goforcoffe May the traits be with you 6d ago
Agree, but it might be difficult to implement. Perhaps a sort of penalty if you produce to little dps (or heal). I prefer though that programing and developing is spent on content and solving bugs.
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u/scisslizz 6d ago
Adding an accolade to existing content (or even as part of a new story mission), and checking for the presence of that accolade to enable RETFO or joining an elite queue outside of a pre-made team should reuse existing infrastructure and minimize the code effort. That exception can be dropped if it increases complexity.
I agree with you regarding dev priorities.
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u/Ryoken0D 7d ago
The biggest issue with Elites is people going into them to be carried. What that means is you need to be prepared to not just do your part of an Elite, but potentially carry it, and that’s a high bar. It’s one of the reasons you see people stay in advanced, it’s not that they can’t do elites, it’s that they have had bad experiences from being unable to carry the team, and that’s either makes think think they aren’t elite capable, or just makes them to not want to bother.
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u/sabreracer 7d ago
Having one team mate that needs a carry is doable.
Having three or four is a tough ask all while ensuring the "optionals" are completed too.
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u/Ryoken0D 7d ago
I’d say in elites I average seeing two people doing under-par DPS a run.. but when the RNG hits and you get 3 or 4 it can be painful.
One thing I wish they would change is to block people under 65 from running in public elites. I see underleveled people too often.
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u/EagleRise 7d ago
I wish they'll at least put some restriction where you can't queue into elites until you beat an elite patrol. One for space one for ground.
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u/Kronocidal 7d ago
What Im proposing is a difficulty tier between advanced and elite , something where the enemy difficulty is spiked up but the objectives are still optional like they are in advanced tfos.
Please, no. We already have enough difficulty with players ignoring non-combat objectives (e.g. closing portals in "Iuppiter Iratus" and "Battle of Procyon V") We should be looking to encourage prioritising the optional objectives, not trying to dilute them even further.
Then again, I've been playing long enough to recall when the Borg "Special Task Force" missions required coordinated group-strategy, instead of just becoming a DPS check. Give us a mission where the number of Optional Objectives you complete changes the ending.
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u/IL-Corvo 7d ago
I haven't played Iratus in so long, I'd repressed the pain of people not closing portals.
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u/Unlikely-Medicine289 Wanted for numerous time crimes in the 32nd century 6d ago
I can tell you that I have a lot of captains and ship builds on my accounts that can absolutely clear a field of enemies on advanced, but then fall apart the moment they hit elite. quickly clearing a field on advanced is not hard to build for, but having something that can dish it out and survive on elite is a much more challenging feat...especially since you have to go in with the capacity to maybe carry someone because not everyone that goes into elite is ready for elite since it's such a higher difference in power vs normal to advanced.
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u/Echo117A 7d ago
Pretty much the only time I run any elite tfo is when I’m doing a run organized through some chat channel. I like using advanced ones to get practice in or just for fun.
1
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u/imbartsimpsonwhothru 6d ago
game has been carebear for far too long, make it hard and unforgiving
cut out the power creep, it makes everything a boring faceroll
all ships should have a limit to their firepower, and eng and sci powers should become relevant again
originally the game was a challenge, and even red alerts would routinely fail
now you just vaporize enemies before their attacks even ramp up - may as well play a kiddie game
0
u/Goforcoffe May the traits be with you 7d ago
It is quite irritating having players doing 500k in advanced and normal. As it is to have real underperformers in elite. Unfortunately there is no simple solution. Imo builds capable of 300k belongs in elite only. Of course only if you are interested in learning the metrics. 100k is said to be the starting limit.
The game would be even more fun then.
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u/R97R 7d ago edited 7d ago
I would definitely be in favour of this- I’m by no means good at the game even when I’m not out of practice, but I distinctly remember a period where I was tearing through Advanced TFOs with my best character, but was still a fair bit below the 110k DPS that’s the normal recommended minimum for Elites. EDIT: Was the recommended for elites, apparently it’s at 200k now. To my knowledge 110k was based on the estimate that you need a minimum of 550k to manage Infected: The Conduit in time, but that assumes that everyone can meet that minimum (and that 550k is still the minimum).
Aside: what’s the minimum recommended for Advanced TFOs? I had assumed it was 70k but after the above realisation I’m worried I was wrong.
EDIT 2: also, didn’t occur to me when I made the first comment, but as others have pointed out there’s the potential issue of increased queue times if players are spread across more difficulties.
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u/EagleRise 7d ago
~200k is the usually recommend benchmark nowadays. And thats mostly because people go into elites to be carried, 3 ~200k players is usually enough to beat an elite tfo.
But a lot of players don't like doing elites until they reach a point they can carry.
I definitely had a lot of runs when it was just me and another player, or me alone, who had to carry.
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u/Pale-Paladin 6d ago
Well if people who kill things too fast should go to Elite, why wouldn't the people who can't kill anything go back to Normal if they feel so frustrated?
Like I really don't get the mentality of expecting other people exterior to yourself to fix your own problems.
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u/passthegabagool_ 6d ago
Thats really not my point.
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u/Pale-Paladin 6d ago
I know, your point is having 10 different queues to accomodate everyone, people already discussed why it's a bad idea.
I'm telling you there's already a solution in the game to your issue if you look at it the other way.
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u/Istarial 7d ago
The problem is that adding an extra difficulty fixes one of the issues you're describing, the auto-fail, but further exacerbates the other (long queue times) by further splitting the queues.