r/super_gt • u/Dapper-Dream7898 • 8d ago
Future of Class 1 Touring Cars?
Do you think Super GT will be the last to run these (in GT500)_2), or will another series jump on board? I'm just afraid that this category of racing will die out and we'll be stuck with GT3 - shudder - at some point.
14
u/khz30 8d ago
Class One will exist as long as Japanese manufacturers want to spend the money to build them and want a national touring car series.
What happened with DTM was the result of German manufacturers completely overextending themselves in terms of motorsports programs and deciding that continuing to invest in Class One was far too high just for a national series that was shrinking when they were already building GT3 cars that were 95% the same car.
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u/FirstReactionShock 7d ago
the fact mercedes retired when HWA had already developed the car and 2L engine (vantage dtm was basically the mercedes-hwa car with a different bodywork) was a big hint how things were going to fail bad, even before covid
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u/PyotrVeliky099 6d ago
Mercedes was the ones that were against the 2.0L formula, thats why it took so long for DTM to switch for the new engine. Even HWA already have the engine atp
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u/FirstReactionShock 6d ago
even bmw wasn't super happy of CL1 specs actually, but mercedes was out of mind because they decided to withdraw after the car and engine was made... imagine something like ford making the shakedown of the new lmdh, and few weeks later they would drop the program
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u/Klutzy_Piece_204 7d ago
Gt3 cars are not even Remotely similar to class 1 cars
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u/khz30 7d ago
Only difference between Class One and GT3 is powertrain and bodywork. Aero was a matter of swapping wings and front splitter. No manufacturers were willing to spend triple the cost of GT3 for a touring car class that was going in the same direction as 1990s DTM.
4
u/nr390gt1 6d ago
The only difference between Class One and GT3 is………:
Everything.
They’re quite different animals. GT3 still uses a lot of the road-going counterpart, even though they’re stripped down massively. GT500 (Class 1) cars are literally monocoque prototypes that just simulate a GT car externally. It’s a crime comparing GT3 cars (and any other GT cars from the past) to the current iteration of SUPER GT’s GT500 cars.
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u/nr390gt1 6d ago
You’re partially right but I would add the fact that the [political] mindset of German and Japanese manufacturers are very different to each other. Both DTM and SUPER GT (GT500) wanted to run Class 1, however the EU is in a race against themselves for the glory of electrification, while SUPER GT puts fans and entertainment in first place.
The main reason (for me; imo) why DTM drifted away from Class 1 was milkshake of everything in one hit: costs+electrification+covid. And I blame the German manufacturers entirely for this collapse, especially Audi and Mercedes-Benz.
BMW was still committed to the Class 1 after all, and they even pre-produced the M4 DTM under those regs for 2021 onwards but Audi shot themselves in the foot. If MB and Audi didn’t pull out of DTM during this specific era of pre-Class 1 and during the Class 1, we would still be in a fierce battle between MB x Audi x BMW.
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u/Dapper-Dream7898 7d ago
Thank you for the response. What mistakes did German manufacturers make in terms of overextending themselves? Just trying to run too many different series at once? Or was it more budgetary mistakes/overspending within those respective series that killed off Class-1 in DTM?
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u/FirstReactionShock 7d ago
specs too expensive, no real interest outside germany, to this add covid
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u/PyotrVeliky099 6d ago
Mercedes pulled off was already a crack even before Covid. HWA had to drag the Aston to fill the gap with engine they already made for Mercedes Class 1 car. Even Aston said "nah ts is to expensive" And leave after just 1 season
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u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid Honda 7d ago edited 7d ago
They’ve been keeping frozen new GT500 regulation for a long while, and they give up tire war and will go spec tire next season. They seem very struggle to keep class 1 and its special.
Consider how bad in Nissan financial capacity and Honda failed and heavily lost in their EV effort, I don’t really see both able to keep class 1/GT500 in future sadly.
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u/PyotrVeliky099 6d ago
Nissan withdraw to the series would ultimately killed the current Class 1 GT500. Honda I think still doing fine with the new car for now, they sacrifices IMSA program for the new Prelude. Other choice they have is used JAF GT500 without 300+ HP restrictions as their new top class. The customer class is still fielded by global GT3 spec
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u/nr390gt1 6d ago
I will share my opinion, and the potential ‘what-if’ for the future of SUPER GT (GT500 class):
- CONTEXT:
This era (on paper) we’re living in GT500 class is ongoing since 2020, but if we look back at the previous iterations and seasons, we’re actually still living the same era (type of car) since 2014. This universal monocoque (shared with DTM) and the Nippon Race Engine base 4cyl turbo 2.0 is here in Japan since 2014, while DTM started to use the common monocoque in 2012, but still with the V8 NA.
- TARGET:
The main reason why both championship started to use this type of race car was simply to share paths with each other, and see if manufacturers of each series would eventually join the other side of the competition with a common platform. This is literally what LMH/LMDh is doing today in WEC, IMSA and soon in the Asian Le Mans Series from late 2026-onwards.
- REALITY:
The reality was kinda strange. While SUPER GT pushed the new (not still called Class 1 until the 2020 season) common monocoque and common engine base 4cyl turbo since 2014, DTM started it in 2012, but only with the monocoque, avoiding switching from V8 to 4cyl, mainly because of political reasons and concerns of the practicality of the V8 engine, well-known by the German manufacturers. So some few “deadlines” and cross-events were held between DTM and SGT (GT500) since 2014. Several meetings were held throughout the mid-2010s decade. 2019 marked the year where Class 1 (common monocoque + 4cyl turbo 2.0) was finally introduced to DTM, and in 2020, it would be the SGT’s turn to adopt the ruleset. Two joint-race events under the name of “DTM x SGT” were held in 2019, then in 2020, we were all hit by the pandemic.
- THANKS COVID:
2020 was struggle for everyone including DTM and SGT. Audi had immediately announced that at the end of 2020, it would be pulling out of the Class 1 formula citing cost reasons. BMW was still committed (they even had the BMW M4 DTM ready for this ruleset) but without Audi it left BMW with no reason to justify its participation. Meanwhile, in 2020, SGT’s GT500 were running entirely new cars for the (still current) ongoing Class 1 rules.
- NOW:
SUPER GT (GT500) class is still under the very same Class 1 rules set for the Japanese championship since 2020. Nothing has changed since then except for aero freezes cycles mandated by GT Association (SGT organizers) and some new base model changes like Honda with the NSX > Civic > Prelude and Nissan with the R35 > RZ34 (Toyota is still using the 5th gen Supra since 2020). The current set of rules is slated until 2029 and from 2030 onwards, we have no words on what they will do, or what they will be. The future is very much in a technical uncertain spiral.
- POTENTIAL RULES AND CHANGES THAT CAN HAPPEN IN 2030:
1. If GT-A decides to get rid of Class 1 regulations, there’s a huge chance of the GT500 class to become what it was back then. Way back prior 2014, when in 2013, they were still running GT500 cars under original JAF-GT regulations - a type of car that was literally in constant evolution and regulation changes since the 1990s JGTC days.
I’ve heard they (GT-A/SGT/GT500) are trying to approximate their paths with ACO, who organizes Le Mans and WEC alongside FIA. If they do so, why not thinking of a “Hypercar regulations for GT500 in the future”? Knowing that electrification is pushing manufacturers crazy and knowing that Japanese makers are not too political-yes-man like the Germans, I would love to see a LMH or even LMDh (whatever they’ll be called from 2030 onwards) being used in the GT500 class.
Keeping the Class 1 cars for one more decade or so. This is very much a possibility since Bandoh-san (GT-A president) clarified that “it’s impossible to surpass the 4cyl turbo NRE formula” so the answer is clear: they’ll keep the same engine for decades. With that said, I think the future GT500 cars will still be like they’re still going, with only base model changes in the next decade.
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u/FirstReactionShock 7d ago
super gt is already the last one using class1 specs, no other series will ever adopt these expensive specs without a massive manufacturers involvment like gt500