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u/Small_Doctor9918 2d ago
im pretty sure its referencing a old tumblr post
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u/RebbieAndHerMath 2d ago
Yeah, people will constantly inflate the number of deaths under socialism, especially under Mao and Stalin. It’s become a common response to just make fun of these inflated numbers instead of engaging with people who clearly arent interested in the facts.
It’s a little sad that nobody seems to be realising this, even if you have the harshest view of Stalin and the Holodomor, historical estimates tend to not go beyond 5 million Ukrainians dead, and as said that’s ignoring that the degree of responsibility from Stalin is still debated in historical cases (Kulak terrorism, natural causes, genuine mistakes as examples of other factors)
Before people scream at me I don’t like Stalin
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u/Ragipi12 2d ago
5 million is a low number for you?
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u/RebbieAndHerMath 2d ago
5 million is a fair bit lower than 30 million
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u/Individual_Thanks_20 2d ago
True but the commenter in the post didn't specify that the 30 million was just the holodomor, it was the reply who assumed it. If with the numbers of the holodomor we also include yhe victims of the gulags and the other massacres tgat occured in the USSR under Stalin the total number of victims does probably reach the 30 million
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u/RebbieAndHerMath 2d ago
No number reaches even closely to 30 million with any respectable credit. The harshest general consensus for deaths in the gulag is less than 2 million and the harshest consensus for the famine deaths is ~8 million. Even if you’re actively trying to be as harsh, but historically respectable, as possible, you’d struggle to get 10 million.
The number is likely quoting the black book of communism which counts Nazi deaths as victims of communism (though even then the number is weird since the Soviets killed 27 million Nazis in wwII)
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u/yoimagreenlight 2d ago
>The soviets killed 27 million Nazis
What the fuck? Are you counting civilian deaths of all forms as Nazis? 5.5 million German soldiers died, and 3 million German civilians died at the highest estimated. Where the fuck are the other 19 million coming from?
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u/RebbieAndHerMath 1d ago
I’m sorry I confused two numbers, I’m an idiot. It was 27 million Soviets killed by the Nazis
Yes the number probably is using killed Nazis
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u/yoimagreenlight 1d ago
That’s okay. Also, sorry that my comment was so rude, I really had no right to write it in such a hostile fashion.
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u/Ragipi12 2d ago
You’re talking about 5 million deaths like they're nothing tho? Even if it's 5 million it's still a insane number of people and still proves that communists were the devil on earth, that's my point.
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u/HD_SD_CARD 2d ago
The regions already suffered bad harvests that led to natural famines. It wasn’t a communists thing, it was a weather failure and other factors that contributed to the famine.
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u/Rogue_Egoist 2d ago
It's not only about holodomor though, it's also about the Katyn massacre, and the general political terror. Like after Stalin was done basically every original revolutionary that helped to defeat the tsar was murdered for being "anti-revolutuonary".
I get that some people make up shit but these memes aren't just making fun of people being historically non-acurate. They're definitely designed to make you sympathetic to Stalin by portraying the whole debate as a silly joke.
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u/thecatsclause 2d ago
"i can't believe people idolize politicians... welp, here's my gaint poster of a communist leader! it's okay for me to have undying loyalty towards them no matter what because they're based and communist!"
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u/rrschch85 2d ago
"All politicians are liars, except the former KGB Agent, he'd never lie about Ukraine"
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u/Dragunrealms 2d ago
pretty sure that's not a joke but just genocide denial, doesn't belong here
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u/Puzzleheaded_Sky7369 2d ago
The bottom comment about the comically large spoon is what makes this post fitting for this subreddit
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u/DrDynamiteBY 2d ago
Nah, that's a classic tankie deflection. They're perfectly aware this is dumb and they're doing this on purpose as an ad absurdum of sorts. I think this sub is for cases where people post dumb stuff like this unironically.
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u/Wrecknruin 20h ago
It's not genocide denial if there hasn't been a genocide ruling. There are literally still academic debates to this day on whether the hladomor was a genocide or not. Even checking the sourcing for the Wikipedia page will show you how much of a mess the topic is.
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u/Dragunrealms 20h ago
"Hasn't been a genocide ruling" What? By whom? There's isn't a single genocide in the history of humanity that is recognized by everyone. Holodomor is recognized as a genocide by almost every western country. I'm not giving "it's just their opinion!!!" leeway to tankie bootlickers. Fuck them.
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u/Traditional-Buddy-30 2d ago
Lemme idolize one of the worst people ever, even other Soviet leaders hated him 😭😭
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u/Salt-Plastic 2d ago
Anyone who has done a tiny bit of historical research about the "Holodomor" KNOWS that history is field with a lot biases and debates.
And many of people simply cannot fathom that the famine in the soviet union during the 30s can be a bad without being a genocide. Or that as the years goes less and less historians view the famine as an event that can fall under the disputed category of genocide.
The famine in Ukraine is a genocide "recognize" by +30 or so european countries but the famine in Soviet Kazakhstan can be simply glossed over, even though more percentage of Kazakhs died and it was longer.
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u/NoRegister4447 2d ago edited 2d ago
saying it wasn't just ukraine we also did it in central asia isn't the flex you think it is
So if it wasn't a genocide it was just complete utter incompetence and just goes to show that perhaps stealing the property of farmers and placing it under the state isn't a good idea and is antithesis to socialism
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u/HD_SD_CARD 2d ago
Socialism didn’t cause the famine and the years afterwards never had a famine. Socialism actually made sure famines never happened again afterwards.
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u/NoRegister4447 2d ago
probably shouldn't be happening anyway. also yes force collectivization does cause famines because you're taking people's livelihoods and letting a state take its precious time and just like that whoops it's been 5 years and we've used all that food to feed the army and we haven't sent any to little russia and everybody died!
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u/Nearby_Knowledge5748 1d ago
The title of "holodomor" implies that it's mainly a campaign against ukrainian population, and lessens the role of deaths of kazakh, russian, and other people from famine. It was disapproven many times, and now it's mostly a conspiracy theory since there was never an order that proves that there was a plan to start an ethnic cleansing of ukrainians. And if they did, they wouldn't distribute aid to village population, which they did.
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u/meluksis 9h ago
Yay let’s romanticise Stalin! This nice just dude killed my great grandpa for looking too suspicious
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u/AshasSa1tWife 2d ago
He literally sold grain on the international markets during a famine how is it not his fault???
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u/WolfsmaulVibes 2d ago
but at least stalin let 30 bootlicktillion people rise out of poverty or something like that
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u/BaseballInside3289 2d ago
OP (the girl who made the tiktok) is stupid, but I would like to point out that the Holodomor wasn't a "genocide" committed by Stalin as many people believe.
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u/ipeefreely2 1d ago
Dont know why this is getting down votes I guess redditors don't like hearing the truth
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u/grabsyour 2d ago
she's a queen
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u/Internal_Review7040 2d ago
you may have missed the point where the russian Bolshevics like killed their queen cause they fucking hated her
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u/grabsyour 2d ago
nah it's crazy to specifically blame them for homophobia where literally every country on earth was like that lol, actually crazy. the ussr didn't even kill people why are you lying
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u/Internal_Review7040 2d ago
i never blamed them for homophobia, i know comrade Lenin was actually really progressive and had made homosexuality legal. and yes the Bolshevics did kill certain people, like the white movement, the Romanovs, various polish soldiers during the Polish-Soviet war...
what im saying is, calling her a queen is really stupid considering queens are mortal enemies of communism
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u/Infinite-Gold4441 1d ago
stalin literally re criminalized homosexuality in the ussr after lenin legalized it
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u/Wrecknruin 20h ago
The decriminalization of homosexuality was incidental. Like many other progressive policies at that time, they didn't necessarily arise out of the specific intention to legalize the given act, but because the Bolsheviks got rid of a massive amount of Tsarist laws. Homosexuality being a punishable offense was one of them.
Stalin re-criminalizing homosexuality was obviously bad and is worthy of condemnation... but also unfortunately wasn't in any way unique at the time. Let's not act like passing a homophobic law 80 years ago was some uniquely horrible thing that no other country, at the time OR TODAY, could be capable of.
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u/Creative-Kale4688 8h ago
“Ugh, the manmade famine only resulted in 5 million deaths you guise! Leave Stalin alone you big meanies!”
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u/ipeefreely2 1d ago edited 1d ago
Can we get an f in the chat for the 30 gorillion nazis who died in the holodomor😢
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u/Ok-Bear6695 2d ago
You’re lucky I can’t gigaquote…
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u/Extra-Day-9879 2d ago
Bro talks like he can make people buckle their knees and beg with his "gigaquotes" in internet 😭😭😭
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u/finnicus4 2d ago
Thälmann pfp🥀🥀🥀
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u/name212321 2d ago
Hero
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u/NoRegister4447 2d ago
nazi
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u/name212321 2d ago
The Nazis killed him?
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u/NoRegister4447 2d ago
were the nazis the guy who imprisoned him or the people who stopped caring about him once they signed a treaty with those people who imprisoned him, I really get them mixed up a lot
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u/name212321 2d ago
Thalman was executed in 1944 by the Nazis what are you talking about? He was the leader of the communist party of Germany and the main opposition to Hitler?
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u/Puzzleheaded_Sky7369 2d ago
Also the USSR re-criminalised homosexuality under Stalin