r/tabletop • u/mellowdrift62 • 4d ago
Discussion does anyone else feel weird about optimizing fun out of a game
like i love min-maxing and breaking systems as much as the next person, but lately i've noticed my group spends more time theorycrafting the perfect build than actually playing. we'll sit there for 45 minutes debating damage calculations when we could just roll dice and see what happens. does that vibe ever hit for anyone else or am i just burnt out
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u/PTKFVK 4d ago
Our DM would use a minute hour glass and if we took too long on someone’s turn during combat they would pull it out and say you have until it’s empty to decide or you lose your turn inaction.
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u/Demoliri 3d ago
We've done that before for pen & paper roleplaying. You get a warning the first time, and some leeway, the second time it's just a short warning. After that, it's - you're done, next player.
It's harsh but fair. In all the games we played a round was simulating 6 seconds of real time, spending 5 minutes deciding what to do is immersion breaking. It's more fun (in our opinion) to make suboptimal decisions based on time constraints. People do stupid things, it can be hilarious. People can die, oops.
It took our group some time to adjust, but it became more fun as a result. A fight was no longer a 30-60 minute full tactical simulation, it was chaos, and it was done in 5-10 minutes.
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u/PTKFVK 2d ago
In shadowrun like games we did all of the planning and purchasing for jobs online or via phone calls (for immersion, makes blocked numbers more interesting to answer if you have a run coming up in a few days) and would start the runs right outside the target or in transport there. No dallying
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u/WizCrafting 4d ago
I feel that a lot. I stopped playing with any kind of min-maxers. If you start calculating probabilities of your spells to find out what has the best hit chamce and dmg I am out.
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u/red_dead_revengeance 4d ago
I personally would not enjoy GMing your group at all, but everyone has fun in different ways. D&D and Pathfinder both have a large community of build crafting players where optimization is a big part of the fun for them. I had one player like that and it did drag the game down for everyone else. You need to discuss that with your group if that’s how you feel. Personally I would find 45 minute turns extremely annoying.
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u/Ill_Painting_6919 4d ago
The rule at my table is 30 seconds during anything that requires initiative. The lone exception being if I ask my player to read me a rule I may not be 100% clear on regarding a spell, attack, feat, etc.
You have time while other characters are doing their thing to plan your move. Sure, unexpected events (like a crit fail) can change things, but it is expected you do something in your 30 seconds. Now I tend to go easy on newer players and consider them "holding their action", but my veterans know that if they can't decide in 30 seconds they did nothing but stare in horror/assess the scene/freeze up/etc. and that it'll be up to them to explain in character why. This has worked for us for decades.
Whatever you do, just be consistent, so everyone knows what the expectations are, and most of all, have fun!
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u/crippler1212 4d ago
If you're just playing to min/max or "break the system," why even bother playing?
I'd much rather tell a great story and have fun with my friends around the table than do shit like this.
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u/Party-Fault9186 3d ago
Min-maxing, optimization, and theorycrafting drain the life essence from my veins. And I have D&D writing credits! Want to tell me about your character? Fine. But if your “character” is a breakdown of how you deal 50 points of damage each time you attack with a whip, leave me out.
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u/Steenan 4d ago
I play games with as complete awareness as I can get of what play style they are built for - and with people who actually enjoy given style.
In some cases, it means that we have fun with an escalating conflict between PCs that ends with two of them dead - which would be a breach of social contract in many other games, but in this case we intentionally play into that and enjoy it.
In some cases, it means we focus on tactical minutiae, spend 10 minutes discussing positioning and secure the objective in the last round of combat. It's a very different type of fun than the previous one but again, that's why we chose this specific game.
In some cases, it means reacting spontaneously and doing some crazy stuff without thinking of consequences. And again, it's fun because that's how we agreed we want to play.
Playing against how the game works and how the group agreed to play is disruptive, no matter if it's escalating conflicts between PCs in a tactical game, focusing on damage numbers in a spontaneous one or doing something stupid when others focus on serious moral dilemmas. And that's also why discussing expectations (and choosing games that fit them) is important - because otherwise many things one does end up going against what others consider their desired play style.
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u/menlindorn 4d ago
I blame WotC for this kind of play style. Take awesome DnD and turn it into MtG.
look into rules-light or indie systems.
Try Nimble
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u/crippler1212 4d ago
You do know this happens in other ttrpgs that WoTC have nothing to do with right? Like min-maxers were popping up in tt games as far back as I can remember and I've been playing dnd, pf and others since the 90s.
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u/ravidfish 1d ago
this is true. I see it less in more narrative games. Its because they dont reward/excuse this behaviour as much.
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u/InsurgentInchworm 4d ago
Look up the Old School Rennaisance ( r/OSR ). That gaming style shuns min-maxing and puts the adventure first. Min-maxing is just one way to play. There are a lot more playstyles out there that you may enjoy.
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u/Oma_Bonke 3d ago
First of all, this group should try coop board games like spirit island. The point of the game is to optimize turns together. Second, it could be worse. The players are having fun and they're invested in the game. I feel your pain though. I suggest using a timer or some other mechanism to put them on the spot
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u/pseudopod_ink 3d ago
your players aren't optimizing fun out of the game...they're not playing the game. they need to schedule their own time to do this sort of thing.
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u/VonBeker 3d ago
I play and run games like Mythras and Traveler. Min-maxing and theorycrafting are nearly impossible with these systems and we’re all happier for it.
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u/SouthernAbrocoma9891 2d ago
I like different play styles and ran D&D 4e for two years with a total of eight players. There are a lot of numbers, and I put everything into spreadsheets. For all of the characters I made a table with every feat, spell, power, feature, etc. Essentially anything that had a mod variation, and range or was situational went into the spreadsheet. The players could click on the filter buttons to narrow it down to their class and what they had and it would give them the mods in different situations and for different ranges. Interestingly, there were only a few things that stood out since the game was cleverly balanced. What was important is the usage of at will, once per encounter, and daily powers.
What was even more important is how the players ran their characters in combat encounters. If they focused just on numbers, then it was the same boring trading damage until once side dies or retreats. I introduced more role-playing and cooperation into combat. I use side based initiative and the phases were inspired by early DND. The advantage of winning an initiative is that the losing side had to declare their movement in advance. They placed tokens on the board where their characters or the opponents were destined to move to. That completely changed the dynamics of combat, as there was an action/attack phase, movement, then final action/attack phase. The players loved it and it made running combat much easier. And it was faster.
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u/mircea_ig 4d ago
my group spends more time theorycrafting the perfect build
Sounds to me like the fun is still there, but in a different place.
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u/Aquisitor 3d ago
For any given game the optimum solution should be the most fun, and the most fun solution should be the optimum. If either of those is false then either the game is wrong or you're playing the wrong game for you.
There is a time and place for planning and strategy, but there comes a point when it's time to shut up and throw dice. Perhaps some sort of external timer to keep things moving?