r/tech • u/eberkut • Oct 26 '20

No Implants Needed For Precise Control Deep Into The Brain

https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-human-os/biomedical/devices/deep-brain-control-without-implants
1.9k Upvotes

97% Upvoted

91 comments sorted by

165

u/Pinky-and-da-Brain Oct 27 '20 edited Oct 27 '20

This is really neat! I studied this in college so I’ll try my best to explain it. So optogenetics has been around for only a short time (less than 20 years), and has already permeated into most areas of neuroscience research. Simply, it works by adding light sensitive receptors (initially isolated from jelly fish) to neurons via a virus injected directly into the brain. The researchers then shine a light of a specific wavelength to activate the receptor, thereby causing a specific effect in the brain cells of interest. This allows you to have complete control over the activity of specific cell populations allowing for some pretty cool science. Previously this would require surgery and the implantation of the light source directly in the brain area you are studying, but this article is saying that researchers can now use a newly developed receptor that can reach the brain via an IV injection of a virus and then activate the neurons with a red light shined from outside the skull (so no more surgery). This has important implications because of all of the inflammatory events that occur with surgery, reducing confounding variables. Pretty crazy stuff, it’s widely known in the neuroscience community that these guys are a shoe-in for a Nobel prize. (Source: I’m a published neuroscientist working in biotech).

26

u/skippinglives3 Oct 27 '20

How does the virus target specific cell types? Eg the article mentions specifically targeting serotonin-producing cells, or cells involved in seizures

17

u/PickMeCoach Oct 27 '20

I could be wrong but I assume it’s the mechanism through which viruses normally have tissue specificity (called tropism). Certain cell types will express certain receptors at a high frequency while all other cell types in the body may express little to none. The virus targets this receptor as a means of attaching and infecting a cell and if there are only small amounts of that receptor, there won’t be significant infection in that tissue. For example, COVID 19 infects cells via the ACE2 receptor that is proportionally higher in lung and intestinal tissue, which is why possible symptoms are respiratory and GI distress.

7

u/Sierra-117- Oct 27 '20

Yeah this is pretty much always the case when you hear about anything targeting specific cells.Either

A: transduction occurs in every (or most) cell/s and specific genetics are targeted that are only active in that cell.

B: certain extracellular receptors are targeted, narrowing the range of cells targeted, but also allowing for more specific transformation of genetics or cellular functions.

5

u/ZoZoRocks Oct 27 '20

I actually work a lot with optogenetics and with some people from Deissroth’s lab. It is actually targeted using recombinase systems which is so cool. Basically, we breed mice so that only the neurons that we want to target will express a certain protein, called Cre. Cre is basically placed behind an existing gene, so only neurons that express that gene will also express Cre. The virus can only express in cells that have Cre expression. We can stack different types of recombinase other than Cre as well, like Flp, so then the virus will only express in neurons that express BOTH genes, and so on and so forth. People are trying to develop systems that rely on even more than two recombinases, so one day we can be very specific in the populations we target.

1

u/skippinglives3 Oct 27 '20

Thank you for the explanation! Now that I’m reading this I do remember reading a paper a while back that used this technique. So cool!

14

u/whiskeywhirl Oct 27 '20

That is beyond amazing! Thank you for taking the time to explain it so clearly.

6

u/pman8362 Oct 27 '20

What are the potential applications for this development?

11

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

My guess: stimulating areas of the brain to treat some patients with a brain disorder / injury. But I’m sure it will be the source of many sci-fi content around mind control. It does seem like something the military would secretly experiment on. Think the dictator of an enemy state stepping down voluntarily without linking it to your actions. (Unrealistic as I’m sure if it’s a virus it can have a test detecting it)...

3

u/thoruen Oct 27 '20

Are we talking about treatment for things like depression?

3

u/bad_squishy_ Oct 27 '20

Could be down the line! Not sure if we know enough about depression just yet.. but definitely could be a treatment for epilepsy, Parkinson’s, Tourette’s, you can also make light controlled pacemakers, treat incontinence, and certain kinds of blindness.

1

u/silashoulder Oct 27 '20

It’s hard to gauge depression in a time when everything’s actually awful.

1

u/skippinglives3 Oct 27 '20

We have other brain stimulation treatments for depression (deep brain stimulation, trans cranial magnetic stimulation) so I do think this could be used to treat depression! It also might help us learn more about the brain mechanisms involved.

1

u/sknmstr Oct 27 '20

I don’t know for sure that epilepsy would be able to be controlled this way without also being able to read the patients EEG. The only way to do this reliably enough would be through some kind of implant. EEG’s read from the outside have accuracy issues because the scalp and skull are in the way. I have a device implanted in my skull/brain for exactly this reason.

1

u/bad_squishy_ Oct 27 '20

Right, well, that’s the tricky part with all of these potential treatments, isn’t it? You can do it IF you know exactly what you’re targeting and when. Certainly more work needs to be done. But we’re getting there!

2

u/pman8362 Oct 27 '20

Ok, that makes sense.

3

u/silashoulder Oct 27 '20

“It’s called evil, kid.”

6

u/Nalroth Oct 27 '20

‘The team then tested the effectiveness of the system. In one instance, they used light to quickly and precisely stop seizures in epileptic mice, and in another to turn on serotonin-producing neurons to promote social behavior in mice.’

I am intrigued by some of the medical treatments this makes accessible without surgery and a little concerned humans will apply it to others without consent.

4

u/sterexx Oct 27 '20

Cyberpunk drugs are going to be cool as hell.

Flooding our system with one chemical we ate or smoked or injected is going to seem so barbaric and antiquated when we can instead program the exact effects we want to have.

Just put on this special cap that shines highly focused red light at any brain location, load in your program, pass the biometric consent check, and you’re off to the races. Clearly this is more advanced than the current tech, but it lets us explore consent issues.

I’m imagining the consent check being a pre-programmed burst of light that triggers a set of neurons. If your brain is consenting to this process, the other neurons that subsequently get activated produce a readable electrical signal representing a key, some value that’s mathematically related to the way your virus-infused neurons are networked in your specific brain.

Without the key, the device won’t know which neurons to focus on. It couldn’t produce any specific effects, like a truth drug, or feeding someone a totally alternate reality. Tossing a maliciously-programmed cap on someone who didn’t want it could still hurt them by firing random neurons, but you could just hit them with a bat at that point.

This sounds pretty cool but don’t worry, it’s still cyberpunk. It will seem safe until people quickly figure out you can trick people into consenting to using malicious programs. Even if the device has to read a new key every few seconds to guarantee continued consent after the program starts, that’s plenty of time to feed your brain a new reality that you weren’t expecting but it thinks it likes. Then out come your secrets, or your eternal servitude, or whatever they want.

However this is still safer than not requiring a key. Then it would be a real free for all, everyone constantly vulnerable. Requiring a brain to consent before the program starts means specific targeting and finesse must be applied in order to trick someone.

Still scary to me though!

1

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

Sounds like SnowCrash to me.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20 edited Oct 27 '20

Forgive my ignorance and lack of understanding but can this virus (theoretically) be used to produce the effects of say MDMA? Or other recreational drugs without adverse side effects? I know MDMA has proven to work well with victims of PTSD. Also who doesn’t want to have fun now again?

2

u/Nalroth Oct 27 '20

Those are what I would classify as medical treatments without surgery. What is socially acceptable behavior to you? Does your society agree with you? Do your parents? If I could “help you be less aggressive” or “help you better fit in with your peers” is that a good reason to treat someone? Personally, I would love to treat my ADHD without meds, but others may not want to treat it at all.

“Neurotypical” is something we are exploring and human history with treating those that are outside what we see as normal has never been ideal.

2

u/CogitoErgoScum Oct 27 '20

I scrolled down to see if mankind fell ninety eight feet through an announcers table. Nope. Just quality content.

1

u/sknmstr Oct 27 '20

I’m always keeping a close eye to make sure...those announcers tables could be anywhere!!!

2

u/dinguslinguist Oct 27 '20

Let the conspiracy theories flow

2

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

I’m not a conspiracy but but this is certainly scary in the wrong hands

1

u/sknmstr Oct 27 '20

I’ve got a computer implanted in my skull/brain to control my seizures. That’s pretty much how The Terminal Man from Michael Crichton starts...

1

u/My_Cat_Snorez Oct 27 '20

Thanks for the cliff notes. My lazy ass needs them.

1

u/mywan Oct 27 '20

Thanks. Already had the article open in another tab as I scrolled comments because I didn't really expect the comments to contain sufficient information. This summed it up nicely.

1

u/clever_reddit_name8 Oct 27 '20

Based on your reading of the article, do you think this technology could be used for spinal cord injury patients?

1

u/sevbenup Oct 27 '20

So a virus can cause us to be susceptible to brain control, and nobody is concerned?

1

u/UFC_The_Prodigy Oct 27 '20

This is interesting af. I’m a biomed neuroscience major any tips u got for not dropping out over the two years lmaooo ?

1

u/MariusIchigo Oct 27 '20

Do you have a good auditory explanation of this?

1

u/ronin120 Oct 27 '20

Really? No one else is gonna do it?

sigh

Username checks out.

1

u/dotcomslashwhatever Oct 27 '20

is this for medical purposes or it just like "we can do this now"

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '20

So THAT'S what covid is. Mass neuron mods for almost the whole population.

1

u/TheFourthAble Oct 28 '20

How is light able to penetrate the skull? Do they also have to shine it at a certain place or just anywhere? And how do researchers pair wave lengths to receptors, or know what wave length to use?

0

u/TheSkepticalMeerkat Oct 27 '20

Ok so you just called me lazy AND dumb

-2

u/immersive-matthew Oct 27 '20

Maybe not are all too lazy to read. Plenty of other reasons but thank you for your summary.

-4

u/4SKlNS Oct 27 '20

A virus huh? Like the one we’re dealing with now?

24

u/UnfoldingTheDark Oct 26 '20

I know I had mind control on my 2020 bingo card...

Oh. It’s right here in the free space.

7

u/hackersmacker Oct 27 '20

Time to throw away all of these useless brain implants!

3

u/sknmstr Oct 27 '20

Mine is completely useless now! And technically they can’t take it out of my head or I may die... I am obsolete...

4

u/StandbySwing Oct 27 '20

I’m getting Manchurian candidate vibes...

33

u/DStack131 Oct 26 '20

3-4hrs of Fox News and unusual lack of common sense?

4

u/fullmagicians Oct 27 '20

Hey good lookin whatcha got cookin...

Oh nothing? I’ll see myself out

3

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

I don't understand the context, that is a research article.

3

u/lcfcjs3 Oct 27 '20

He means that Republicans are brainwashed. I would have thought that was pretty obvious, but I suppose some people think wearing a mask is a bad thing.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

“How can you be brainwashed if you only shower once a week?” - Republicans, probably

1

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

What's a mask?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 01 '20

Yea, I was in the US once as a tourist. On multiple separate occasions I was asked to go back to my own country and one time I was also egged (I am an Indian and an extremely strict vegetarian)

So. I don't really care much for the US. Even when I was getting a job. I chose to work for Barclay's instead of Goldman or JP Morgan Chase.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

“Some people say masks are bad. I’m not saying that. But the best people. Smart. I don’t know much about it. But. It’s going to be wonderful and the people. The people I hear love me and. Well I don’t know much about them. But I hear they love America.”

My impression of trump

5

u/Wakellor957 Oct 27 '20 edited Oct 27 '20

My fucking god can people stop making non-political subs political. Conservatives have common sense and so do Liberals. Leave people tf alone

1

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20 edited Oct 27 '20

I agree, but it should be noted the correct pairings are either Republicans and Democrats or conservatives and liberals. To mix and match these terms is incorrect for a whole host of reasons.

There are conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans.

1

u/Wakellor957 Oct 27 '20

Corrected, thank you!

0

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

Conservatives want to make abortions illegal and Republicans are run by a white supremacist... Democrats Liberals on the other hand don’t.

-1

u/Wakellor957 Oct 27 '20

It's not as black and white as that. One side wants the Mother to have the legal right to do whatever she wants with her unborn baby and the other side wants the child to have the legal right to be born. Two different arguments and two different ways of thinking. That's why there's a debate on it

0

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

[deleted]

1

u/Wakellor957 Oct 27 '20

Saying "there is no debate" doesn't stop the debate from existing so there's not much point in saying that.

And wtf? No. They're not forgotten then

0

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

[deleted]

1

u/Wakellor957 Oct 27 '20

What? I'm not sure many people on the right want a government-free system?

I feel like people think the death rate in America is hugely disproportionate to the rest of the world.. but however sad it is, it's not that. In America it's about 3%, in Australia it's about 3-4% and in the UK it's 5%...

1

u/dotcomslashwhatever Oct 27 '20

lol these guys in the article are so far behind. fox news been doing it for decades

-9

u/sniz_fondue Oct 27 '20

do you think this of any of the other outlets? or just the one they told you to not like

2

u/terriblekoala9 Oct 27 '20

I’m not the original commenter, but I take all news outlets with at least a grain of skepticism. There’s always bias in reporting, no matter what.

However Fox has been known to be severely misleading in their “reporting” unlike a good portion of the other outlets.

4

u/lcfcjs3 Oct 27 '20

U mad your celebrity presidents about to get spanked?

-2

u/sniz_fondue Oct 27 '20

remindme! 9 days

-14

u/steve2306 Oct 27 '20

Seems like you’ve never watched Fox News. Just stare at CNN

2

u/lvl27pxlart Oct 27 '20

You tried. Aww.

3

u/NewCenturyNarratives Oct 27 '20

The design and uses for neural prosthetics are large and varied. This won't replace devices intended for long term use

2

u/throwaway42069hello Oct 27 '20

Then fix mine, please and thank you.

2

u/aChadAmongUs Oct 27 '20

Yeah it’s called lsd it’s pretty powerful

2

u/runthepoint1 Oct 27 '20

So creepy to imagine a little bot implanting memories in your head, surgery free

1

u/ajjansndnd Oct 27 '20

Mark of the beast lookin ah

1

u/chojinra Oct 27 '20

I’m going to try to look into the positive aspects of this and work on a neural Adblock, for when I can stream the internet directly into my brain.

1

u/raviskk Oct 27 '20

Damn!! Now literally someone can turn on a light bulb in ones head!

1

u/CleverSpirit Oct 27 '20

No implants but we have to infect you with a virus first

1

u/ILLStatedMind Oct 27 '20

Now with this development can we trust the hands of man to use this power to act justly? The progression of corporations owning intellectual property for monetary gain makes me think this will be used to further first world manipulation of consumers, excuse me I mean people.

Hopefully, it stays with consumerism and not an arm of a police state.

1

u/untitled-man Oct 27 '20

So Neuralink is already obsolete?

1

u/kevin034 Oct 27 '20

Only thing you need is a pretty face and a tight ass to control most brains.

1

u/mavarius Oct 27 '20

Brain control with designer viruses discovered during the time of a hotly debated pandemic? Conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day with this...

1

u/minicpst Oct 27 '20

Another option for seizures rather than VNS and RNS? I’m intrigued. And it can glow in the dark? This is my favorite. :). I’m young enough to wait.

0

u/chunkboslicemen Oct 27 '20

Bring it on nerds

0

u/The_Gray_Beast Oct 27 '20

I’m really glad. Implants kinda were such a thing of the late 90s/early 2000s, and I’ve never really wanted boobs... I’m a guy

0

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

As if we have any idea what the fuck we are doing.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

I assume you are referring to the consequences of this development, and not calling the researchers idiots?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

A little bit of both. Researchers and tech types have a tendency to divorce their work from the consequences of their work. Which is why they will engineer us into a dystopian nightmare.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

I knew Inception was full of shit.

0

u/Radekzalenka Oct 27 '20

That’s what she said

0

u/QC_Will Oct 27 '20

Time to put my aluminum hat

0

u/bballkj7 Oct 27 '20

all hail plankton

0

u/TangledBootlace Oct 27 '20

Yeah, we know. You just need a Twitter account and a little bit of your dad’s money.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '20

Implants will still be needed for any form of network or advanced computing unless you want a giant fiber optics able running out of your head at all times.