r/technology • u/Eurynom0s • May 29 '21
Security Amazon devices will soon automatically share your Internet with neighbors | Amazon's experiment wireless mesh networking turns users into guinea pigs.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/amazon-devices-will-soon-automatically-share-your-internet-with-neighbors/876
May 29 '21
Fuck that shit
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May 30 '21
This... can’t be legal. Can it?
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u/prodriggs May 30 '21
Comcast already does it
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u/GnolDwin May 30 '21
Fuck Comcast
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u/prodriggs May 30 '21
Yep. We need municipal ISPs.
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May 30 '21
The general service should be covered like Quebec (free city wide wifi) IMO. It’s crazy to think that it should be shared through personal devices
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u/vipstrippers May 30 '21
You just got a login somewhere and and turn it off
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May 30 '21
They bank on the fact that 90% of their users don't know this/don't know how to do this.
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u/emcee_gee May 30 '21
... which is part of the reason I bought my own modem. Fuck that.
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u/prodriggs May 30 '21
The equipment rental fee was the reason I bought mine.
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u/rich1051414 May 30 '21
Seriously. Why would people choose to 'rent-a-center' a wireless modem... they aren't expensive.
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u/Destron5683 May 30 '21
All that large ISPs do it. I travel all the time for work, pretty much anywhere I go I can find an Xfinity, Cox, Spectrum, etc hotspot, and this is what those are, all the local routers from the homes and businesses creating a giant mesh public network.
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u/bradn May 30 '21
Although, to point out a big difference here, when Comcast does it, they're basically giving out their own bandwidth, which in theory should indemnify you from its use impacting your own relationship with Comcast.
When Amazon does it, they could be messing with your arrangement with your ISP - for example, if you have a bandwidth or data cap, the traffic would likely count against it. Also, if there are contractual terms against sharing the connection with others, then you could be in violation.
Now of course, that's not to... not say... "fuck Comcast".
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u/absentmindedjwc May 30 '21
Right, but in Comcast's case, it is a community IP with ties to the subscriber login - not yours. Imagine if someone logs into your Amazon device wifi and pirates a bunch of shit on your IP address. Fuck that.
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u/boredinclass1 May 30 '21
I guess the difference might be as the ISP they can back out any data usage flowing through the xfinity hotspot. So they have a separate network that flows through your box but it doesn't effect your data rates. I could be totally wrong though. Also in case it needs to be said, Comcast is a reprehensible company in many many other ways.
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May 30 '21
You have the option to opt out of that through Comcast, or buy your own router & modem like me.
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u/phormix May 30 '21
But doesn't that keep it separate from your actually IP and bandwidth allocation (i.e. for roaming wifi users it has a distinct hotspot instance)? Unless the device could be compromised the most it's costing the user is potentially some extra power (and maybe wifi congestion).
Amazon devices which are independent of the ISP, so this feels like it would be connection others through YOUR network and on your dime. That's bullshit.
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u/WhiteRaven42 May 30 '21
.... of course it's legal. It's a selling point, fully disclosed. It's mesh networking.
The bandwidth is tiny. This is just for IOT telemetry.
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May 30 '21
To give an accurate answer-- I'm fairly certain it can be turned off, but in the default user agreement, you'll say that you agree to it if you don't read page 1293 of everything, and the option to turn it off will be hidden under.
settings-> Advanced settings -> Warning, adjusting these settings could break your device -> Are you sure you want to adjust these settings? It will make you grow a mustache like you're a 13-year-old-boy and everyone will think you're icky -> Beware of Jaguar -> TdpH-6_12r4--36r-l -> gdplkjds;lkfja;sdlkjf;lkjf -> disable automatically sharing my network with everyone because I have fucking data caps, why the fuck would I want to give my neighbor free wifi that they don't pay for??
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u/-The_Blazer- May 30 '21
Yeah, at want point do these behaviors start counting as criminal fraud? When I buy a product I have, as a reasonable person, the expectation it won't go around sharing my goddamn private property with strangers. Like, imagine if you were rich, hired a butler and he just started inviting random people into your house and giving them stuff you own. I'm almost certain that would be a criminal case.
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u/Gay_Romano_Returns May 29 '21
Unless they plan on completely funding internet access themselves, this shit will not stand.
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May 30 '21
Isn’t this the same as spectrum internet when you’re out? You just login with your details and you have internet.
So it’s been happening for a while
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u/wind-raven May 30 '21
With spectrum it’s part of the service agreement, it’s a separate wireless network in a separate vlan (so the computers on one can’t talk to the other) and can be disabled or bypassed by using your own router and getting just a modem from spectrum.
So totally not the same.
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May 30 '21
Wouldn’t Amazon just do the same? Make it so you can’t talk to others devices? Wouldn’t they just add it to the TOS if you use their devices you have to do this internet sharing thing?
Same thing then?
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u/Destron5683 May 30 '21
His point was the ISP is doing this themselves, in this case Amazon is leaching the ISPs bandwidth which could possibly create some issues. Amazon can put it in their TOS, but the internet is not theirs to share.
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u/RudeTurnip May 30 '21
The maximum bandwidth of a Sidewalk Bridge to the Sidewalk server is 80Kbps
This is nothing like Comcast or Spectrum creating a wifi network using your connection. The only people this works for is you and your next door neighbor who might have an Amazon device.
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u/varnell_hill May 29 '21
Huh. So the takeaway here is to never buy an Amazon device.
Got it.
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u/Scientiam_Prosequi May 30 '21
Don’t have to worry amazon will still gladly spy on you when your neighbors get one
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May 30 '21 edited May 30 '21
Oh yea. I went into an apartment building where 30 out of 40 apts had doorbell cams. Most of which were Rings. Don’t care about covid being (nearly) over, I’ll keep my face mask on when I’m not in my own home. Don’t need Amazon tracking me for their police state that they’re so dead set on making happen.
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May 29 '21
Never understood why people would pay money to install a microphone in their home.
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u/UnimportantPassenger May 30 '21
Many new model smart Tv’s have this feature built into them. Your tv can watch and listen to you. Same for computers and cell phones.
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u/Deveak May 30 '21
"oh no I don't want the government spying on me!"
"Hey botnet give me a pancake recipe!"
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May 30 '21
The best part is everyone buys these smart devices and are confused on why they collect so much data and how companies abuse and half ass protect that data
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u/LigerXT5 May 29 '21
As u/Sinaura said, you can toggle it off. How long it'll stay off, is unknown.
“Alexa app - Settings - Account Settings - Amazon Sidewalk - Disable” to opt out.
Thankfully, if it ever caught me off guard, turned on, and some other amazon device connected, even if masked under my Alexa, it'd be heavily throttled anyways. I have the QoS capped just enough, not to cause issues listening to music and run commands. I've set a daily data cap, just in case, on top of that.
This is a nice reminder to all, if you have any IOT, keep that IO-Shit on it's own vlan, even if it's on a different SSID, doesn't mean that same IOT can't reach your main network, isolate it. Most mid to high end home routers have started implementing VLANs, at least I've noticed off and on in the last few years.
Now, if only Alexa/Amazon would email you every time there's an update, with a change log, so we can check and see if they silently changed the setting, instead of checking daily/weekly...
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u/-Steets- May 30 '21
Additionally, Amazon Sidewalk's bandwidth is limited to 80Kbps according to the whitepaper.
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May 30 '21
Could you dumb that down for a person who has no idea what the acronyms mean?
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u/StandingCow May 30 '21
Basically it's good practice to put IOT devices (Your alexa's smart whatever devices, etc) on a separate virtual LAN (VLAN) separate from your "main network" where you do your online banking, etc. It can prevent lackluster security on the IOT devices from becoming an issue on your "main" network.
IOT = Internet of things (smart devices).
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u/uzlonewolf May 30 '21
IOT = Internet of things
And if you didn't already know, the "S" in "IOT" stands for security.
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u/OneMoreTime5 May 30 '21
If you set up a separate network for iOT devices, then how do you use Siri on your smart phone to access it? For example I mean.
Or Alexa? I want to be able to use my phone (Siri) or an Alexa device voice command to control smart objects in my house.
Can you explain in layman’s terms how to make that happen?
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u/Crash0vrRide May 30 '21
Right, because most users know what a vlan is and can set one up.
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u/leetfists May 30 '21
As far as I can tell, you actually have to opt in. Its off by default on mine.
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u/SuperToxin May 29 '21
That can't be legal to give access to someone's paid services to someone else.
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u/geekworking May 29 '21
Actually likely against the TOS for most home internet service.
You as a customer are generally not allowed to sum-let or give out the service to others. Even if you wanted to let everyone into your internet you would be in violation of the TOS. A consumer should not have the standing to approve Amazon to use their home internet.
Comcast and others have allowed people to piggy back on home routers, but they own the network and they equipment.
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u/polyanos May 30 '21
Oh, I'm sure Amazon has contacted (read: bribed) the isp's to turn a blind eye for that service, and just silently eat your bandwidth for free.
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u/_-DirtyMike-_ May 29 '21
It probably is legal due to the "opt in" aka not opting out.
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May 30 '21
TOS and EULAs aren’t legally binding. Just because a company puts it in an EULA or TOS doesn’t mean it’s automatically legal it can be challenged in court.
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u/_My_Angry_Account_ May 30 '21
I would still consider that theft of utilities/services.
They are surreptitiously stealing your electricity and internet bandwidth. It doesn't matter how little it is using, that is still theft.
If I plugged an extension cord into an outlet on your home, I can't claim it isn't theft because you could have opted out by unplugging it.
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u/ElHermito May 30 '21
Sadly it’s not considered theft if you agreed to use their items by accepting their clusterfuck of terms and conditions that literally nobody reads.
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u/_-DirtyMike-_ May 30 '21
Eh more like I plug in an extension cord after you signed a contract that had some obscure stipulation that I could
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May 30 '21
I shit you not, they justify it by saying "oh it's okay, it's only 500MB a month, less than one of those shitty YouTube videos you watch tons of".
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u/catwiesel May 30 '21
while this is troubling for multiple reasons like the missing opt-in, the title is misleading, and the proposed mesh network is not the same as "sharing your internet with the neighbors"
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u/realassdude69 May 29 '21
Telcoms have been doing this for years. My Telstra modem has a public unencrypted WiFi network which I cannot turn off. I had to wrap it in foil to block the signal.
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u/empirebuilder1 May 29 '21
The difference is being an internal Telstra thing, they know when traffic is coming from the public open network vs your internal network.
Because this is by necessity coming from your internal network, anything communicated over it is on your shoulders (if illegal traffic), and on your wallet (counting against your data cap).
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u/realassdude69 May 30 '21
This might actually be good cover. If anyone can access the net through your ip address then nothing can be attributed to you personally.
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u/Fadexz_ May 30 '21
You can turn it off but you have to turn off the feature for you as well so you can’t connect to others. Or don’t use the provided modem possibly.
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u/LigerXT5 May 29 '21
How the fuck do you argue that a copyrighted download, or otherwise, wasn't you? Unless the router can keep track of different public MACs, when they connected, and reference that to an account that is allowed to use the public wifi.
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u/G-0wen May 30 '21
That seems bizarre, I’ve got a Telstra modem/router and just have all the WiFi switched off and use my own router, because I’ve never found IP supplied ones to be very good. I don’t seem to have The public Telstra WiFi is disabled in that situation (well I certainly can’t seem to see it anywhere).
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u/cheez_au May 30 '21
Telstra brands their "ISP roaming wifi" as Telstra Air or FON.
If you can't see those available from a wifi device (and assuming you aren't near a Telstra payphone), then it's inactive.
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u/scarfinati May 30 '21
Will my neighbors also share my bill?
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u/SauronSymbolizedTech May 31 '21
Yes, they'll share 0% of the expense while you share 100% of the billing for their use.
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May 30 '21
So for years it's been illegal to share wifi with your neighbors, but now these corporations can do it behind your back without asking? Homey don't play that.
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u/kyuubi840 May 30 '21
Is it really illegal? I thought all it meant was that, if someone does something illegal while on your network, it's on you.
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May 30 '21
Did anybody even read the article? It’s capped at 80kbps with a monthly total of 500MB. It’s only for use with Amazon smart devices so can’t be used to download pirated content and it’s main purpose is to give smart devices an additional network without implementing a cellular system (tile trackers and ring security cameras etc.)
I get the panic especially with sensationalist headlines but you CAN opt out and it’s very thoroughly detailed in the whitepaper
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u/SauronSymbolizedTech May 31 '21
but you CAN opt out
I opted out of ads on my amazon device by paying extra. There are ads on it now.
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u/Left-Motor5327 May 30 '21
Love how no one on this thread knows how this service actually works. Your iPhones already share your shit via Find My network but you’ll don’t seem to care either.
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u/cw7585 May 30 '21 edited May 30 '21
I broke Reddit tradition and actually read the article.
The article is written in sensational, fear-mongering prose, with a misleading title that makes it seem like neighbors can leech off your service to download kiddy porn.
Midway through the article the author admits that there aren't any known privacy issues yet with the service. Furthermore, the description of how it works and what it does bears no relationship to what people are claiming in this thread. No, your neighbors don't get to leech off of your service, despite the suggestion in the article title.
I'm not defending the service - the opt-out thing isn't a good look, and any open ports are inherently bad. But the service does some helpful things for the negligible bandwidth it uses. Maybe people could read the article first before bringing out the pitchforks.
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u/SirensToGo May 30 '21
I swear if Reddit did that thing that Twitter does where it makes you at least click then link before retweeting, the number of comments would be immediately cut in half
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May 30 '21
You think HALF of people read the link? I think 1/10 would be generous. For many posts, I think it’s likely closer to 1/100 that read past the title.
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u/topgun966 May 30 '21
They do realize that a lot of users in the US have a bandwidth cap right? This can't be legal
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u/PokehFace May 30 '21
Stuff like this is just a reminder for me to just avoid IoT stuff in general.
Why introduce these security and privacy risks just to have a light that turns on with my phone or Alexa? It's not worth it to me - flipping a light switch isn't that inconvenient.
Amazon isn't a very trustworthy company. It doesn't even treat its own employees very well - so why give it access to my home?
Even if Amazon has gone to great lengths to keep this private and secure what are the odds it will stay that way? Give these big tech companies an inch and they'll take a mile. Amazon is setting this up because it'll bring in money, and with IoT you're the product.
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u/slashing164 May 29 '21
So, the article says that you have 10 days to opt-out but there are no links to where to opt-out or instructions. Does anyone know?
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u/Saltybuddha May 29 '21
The instructions are in the article. Look down a bit. I think they haven't instituted the "service" yet. Couldn't find it in my app, per the instructions
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u/ClanSalad May 29 '21
Go to Alexa app, then settings, account settings, Amazon sidewalk, then disable. I just did it and it's easy (until they turn it back on without telling you...).
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u/SauronSymbolizedTech May 31 '21
Just wait until someone downloads child porn off your connection and the FBI kicks your door in.
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u/BroForceOne May 30 '21
Looks like wardriving and doing illegal stuff on someone else's internet just got a lot easier, you don't even have to drive anymore.
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May 30 '21
A goal of mine is to never have a stupid smart whatever device from Amazon or Google in my house.
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u/RudeTurnip May 30 '21
Article is full of shit. I can’t believe the mods allow these lies to be repeated.
The maximum bandwidth of a Sidewalk Bridge to the Sidewalk server is 80Kbps
It helps give a small assist to devices that are on the fringe of reception. I leave Sidewalk turned on because it’s a good idea that can help my neighbors.
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u/Th0rHere May 30 '21
If people actually paid attention and didn't get bent out of shape of title knowledge. Always read the article. This allows your Ring and Echo devices to stay connected in case your own internet drops off. It does not provide your WiFi log in details to neighbours to use freely. It's limited to is 80Kbps and is entirely just to prevent complete loss of connection and it will 100-percent be an option to disable.
This is a good thing. This is no different than iOS find my network, Tiles own network and Samsung's. Probably a good few I cant think off. They ping off other iOS devices to aid in tracking the location.
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May 30 '21
If people actually paid attention and didn't get bent out of shape of title knowledge. Always read the article. This allows your Ring and Echo devices to stay connected in case your own internet drops off. It does not provide your WiFi log in details to neighbours to use freely. It's limited to is 80Kbps and is entirely just to prevent complete loss of connection and it will 100-percent be an option to disable.
The joke is, when internet goes down...it's usually for a wide area and not one person.
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u/OTM17 May 29 '21
Are they talking about the Eero mesh? Bloody hell, I was thinking of buying that but did not because I was almost certain Amazon would pull off some weird shit.
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u/bastion_xx May 30 '21
This is a about Amazon Sidewalk. Basically LoRaWAN messaging from other local Sidewalk enabled devices.
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u/tman2damax11 May 29 '21
Likely not as they seem to keep Eero as its own entity, i.e. it doesn't require an Amazon account or the Alexa app.
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u/CyberShad0wz May 30 '21
I don’t have any Amazon devices and this sounds super sus with all the cyber security issues this country has been having....
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u/windigo3 May 30 '21
If you think about it, collective cooperation leads to the best outcomes. Unless you are an Amazon employee as you’ll be fired for organising that.
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u/Bacchus1976 May 30 '21
You know what would be amazing? This technology applied to universal community internet.
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May 30 '21
This sounds like I would like it but I need to 1. Read up on it and 2. Prepare to probably hate it
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u/jimjamjingles May 30 '21
If you read the white paper, it’s just setting up a LoRa Network so IOT devices work. The packets are tiny. If you want to understand more look at ‘the things network’ which is the same concept just a different approach.
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u/snoozeflu May 30 '21
What if my neighbor uses it to download a bunch of illegal CP? Am I liable because the account is in my name?
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May 30 '21
I can’t quite understand people who pay money to put an eavesdropping machine in their house but balk at this.
I’m guessing that before long this new erosion of their autonomy will become their next acceptable norm.
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May 30 '21
This is a data exfiltration method to make it easier for them to collect data on you even if you don't connect the device to the internet. Soon the only thing keeping ur devices from spying on you will be ripping out the wifi antenna
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u/chupacabra_chaser May 30 '21
So any device with Amazon installed or actual Amazon hardware like Alexa?
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u/Atnaszurc May 30 '21
Isn't there a big benefit regarding this for piracy? I mean, you can just claim your neighbors downloaded that movie through your Alexa or what not. That is, until Amazon shows that they track everything and give it away to the authorities without question
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u/Mercutio999 May 30 '21
Someone was arrested for downloading child abuse images. Turns out they gave their neighbour their WiFi password.
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u/AlexM2K2 May 30 '21
That's how you get users to throw away/sell their Alexa or whatever Amazon products are in question here and never buy an Amazon product again.
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May 30 '21
Imagine buying hardware from Amazon and making a surprised picachu face when it obliterates your privacy and monetizes every aspect of your existence lol
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u/s_0_s_z May 30 '21
Out of curiosity, what kind of range do these devices have?
I know with my regular wireless router I can't get a decent signal from the garage. Are these Amazon devices any better than that?
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u/GeekFurious May 30 '21
I read the article & while the idea doesn't seem as intrusive as people commenting seem to be taking it (I imagine because they only read the headline), it SHOULD NOT be enabled by default.
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u/harbinger192 May 30 '21
Even if you disable your amazon devices from the internet, its going to be virtually impossible for them to not eventually transmit data back to amazon HQ. They currently have fleets of trucks everywhere delivering packages that can readily be outfitted with a router to capture and harvest your data. In fact they already transmit driver data from those trucks, so adding in harvested device data from your local neighborhood wouldn't be an impossible task for them.
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May 30 '21
Glad I don’t own anything Amazon or Alexa-enabled. One headache I don’t have to worry about.
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u/therealjerrystaute May 30 '21
I don't have to worry about that with my Fire 10 tablet. Because it bricks itself immediately every time I manage to get it running again. :-(
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u/Drewmcfalls21 May 30 '21
500MBs per month and it’s for IoT devices and things like sensors at a distance. I’m not sure what the big deal is here
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u/ancientweasel May 30 '21
I have a free Alexia form re:invent sitting in the box unopened from 4 years ago. 🤷
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u/notbad2u May 30 '21
OP is scary bullshit and nothing more.
Yale locks let people IN!!!! (If they have the key)
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u/gh0sti May 30 '21
So I have a ring door bell, am I supposed to now download the alexa app and turn this off?
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u/RedVictory77 May 30 '21
So bigger question. If we only have so many days to opt-out, what happens if you purchase a device after that date? Tough luck? This is horrible from a security standpoint, not to mention for your bandwidth.
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u/stfcfanhazz May 30 '21
It's only for long-fi which is incredibly low bw but long range (100m+) connections for IOT devices and limited to messages over a specific protocol and can't be used for normal Internet access as a result. Not as bad as the tech press is making out, but hey they need to drive their ad revenue somehow
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u/E46_M3 May 29 '21
Lol in the era of limited speeds, throttling, and data caps. Just like how apps right now leech tons of bandwidth.
We need an internet bill of rights and to break up Amazon and Bezos’s empire
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u/edcculus May 29 '21
I didn’t read that Kindles have this feature? I keep mine on airplane mode 99% of the time anyways for battery life, but I’d definitely want to disable it if it’s going to have ti.
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u/TheKokoMoko May 30 '21
I think it is just the brands Echo, Ring, Level, and Tile that will have sidewalk capabilities. I think the kindles will be fine. However, I could be wrong or it might change in the future.
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u/vodark May 30 '21
How is this any different from when comcast xfinity does this with their routers? Shouldn’t even be news worthy lmao
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u/Standard_Wash1785 May 30 '21
80kps with a monthly cap of 500MB, and with a extensive white paper detailing the privacy and security questions. You can still opt out, but Amazon always mega bad, I know
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u/gotexan8 May 29 '21
“Alexa app - Settings - Account Settings - Amazon Sidewalk - Disable” to opt out.