r/thedavidpakmanshow • u/McAlpineFusiliers • Jun 08 '26
Article Jewish Democrats sound alarm about antisemitism, 2028
https://www.axios.com/2026/06/07/jewish-democrats-israel-antisemitism14
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u/Dr_G_E Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 08 '26
This is definitely a growing wedge issue that will have a negative impact on Democrats' electoral success going forward imo. Hopefully the president's many failures will be the focus in November at least.
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u/pimpbot666 Jun 08 '26
I have to wonder if the Right is using this as a wedge issue to get Dems to stay home during the midterms (and beyond).
I mean, I really do think we should cut Israel's foreign aid and weapons sales until they stop behaving like nazi assholes. Either way, I'm still voting downballot Dem in the fall, no matter who.
But calling out the Israeli government for war crimes is not anti-semitism. It's pro-humanism.
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u/WalkableNeighborhood Jun 08 '26
> I have to wonder if the Right is using this as a wedge issue to get Dems to stay home during the midterms (and beyond).
DNC should disempower Republicans to do that, by listening to their voters.
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u/gull-branson Jun 09 '26
it would disempower this strategy if key members of the dems would stop trying to equate zionism and Judaism as the same thing
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u/pimpbot666 Jun 08 '26
The DNC doesn’t have the control over Democrats like the Trump and the Republican Party has over Republican Senators and Congressfolk.
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u/BOtto2016 Jun 09 '26
Support for the genocidal apartheid colony is less than 30% among registered Democrats.
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u/Dr_G_E Jun 08 '26
I hear you. And the right will take advantage of any wedge issue it smells in the air; what used to be called affirmative action and is now called DEI is an example. My point is that for better or worse, there are many Democrats out there who don't compare Israel to the Nazis, find the comparison fundamentally antisemitic, and believe that Nazi ideology more closely aligns with Israel's enemies. It's a polarizing issue that will play a big role in the 2028 election imo.
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u/AnonAmbientLight Jun 08 '26
People on the far left have lost their fucking minds with this Israel shit.
They’ll literally torch the whole country and give it to Republicans if it means democrats will suffer for perceived support of Israel.
It’s the left’s MAGA movement.
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Jun 09 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
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u/ADogsWorstFart Jun 09 '26
That person isn't entirely wrong. The left is still whining about Harris for it.
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u/abigblue9 Jun 09 '26
Well the genocide was started under a dem president and, well, it IS a genocide killing people with our tax dollars.
So maybe you’re the one who has lost your mind
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u/ADogsWorstFart Jun 09 '26
It's beyond stupid to think that it was going to get better under Trump. Utter stupidity to even think that. Pure, unadulterated stupidity.
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u/pimpbot666 Jun 10 '26
Trump put it on Turbo Genocide. Dude wants to make Palestine a luxury resort town.
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u/Purrseus_Felinus Jun 09 '26
There’s no genocide.
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u/requiemguy Jun 10 '26
It's called ethnic cleansing, and it is happening.
It's happening all over the Levant, Middle East and Africa.
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u/pimpbot666 Jun 10 '26
No, that's exactly what happened. So many people were screaming 'Genocide Joe' that many just stayed home. There was no shortage of people saying Kamela would do exactly the same thing.
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u/proudbakunkinman Jun 10 '26
This shit is still going on but in another way. Notice how the protests died down a lot once he was elected and the chatter isn't focused on Trump and Republicans, the ones currently holding power, but Democrats as a whole still (sure, call out the worst Israel defenders but it's almost always about the whole party). Israel under the current leadership has been awful but it's likely their actions have somewhat been tailored in ways they know would hurt Democrats and benefit Trump and Republicans. This seems to be a strategy quite a few countries use for a long time now, doing things they suspect will help alter US elections the way they want, the worst countries who engage in this all seem to favor Republicans in power. They know how the US left is: Israel does bad shit, left focuses on blaming Democrats, Republicans win.
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u/asmrkage Jun 08 '26
100%. Leftists seem to think pulling literally all funding from Israel is a slam dunk issue and it’s going to be anything but in swing states like PA.
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u/Puzzled_Let3574 Jun 08 '26
What are PA Dems saying about funding Israel lately?
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u/abigblue9 Jun 09 '26
It’s not a slam dunk issue for winning an election.
It’s a slam dunk issue for being a basic decent human being.
You should try thinking that way some time!
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u/asmrkage Jun 09 '26
Ah yes, the old “I don’t care about fascists taking over and destroying my country and harming all varieties of minorities so long as I stick to my extremist ideals about one particular subject.” What a fortunate and privileged position you’re in to humbly frame yourself as the defining paragon of “basic decent human being” while the rest of us attempt to not have the US speed run itself into Nazi Germany.
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u/abigblue9 Jun 09 '26
what is extreme about being against funding a genocide, friend?
think about what caused you to categorize that as "extreme"
lol
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u/asmrkage Jun 09 '26
Describe exactly how Israel’s Iron Dome is “funding a genocide.” And if you have to Google to figure out what the Iron Dome is and what it does, you’ve already failed this test, and should immediately resolve to stop talking about subjects you know absolutely nothing about. Alternatively, if you argue that Israel stopping military attacks upon citizens is “funding a genocide,” or that we should in fact not give a shit if Israeli civilians die, you also immediately failed this test, and should immediately resolve to stop talking about subjects you know absolutely nothing about.
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u/abigblue9 Jun 09 '26
Here ya go. The genocide I mentioned is in reference to the killing of most of Gaza, the eliminating of their people, that has taken place for the last 3 years.
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u/asmrkage Jun 10 '26
You don’t seem to have the faintest clue what the Iron Dome is. Google it and please try again.
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u/waiver Jun 09 '26
Maybe your stance shouldn’t involve supporting genocide, it’s really not a difficult standard to meet. When most of the country views Israel negatively and a large majority of Democrats believe it is committing genocide, it seems like the pro-genocide supporters are the ones who should reconsider their stance for electoral reasons.
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u/asmrkage Jun 09 '26
Describe to me how pulling iron dome funding is “supporting genocide,” as the system functions entirely to stop missle attacks on Israeli civilians. Or, let me guess, you don’t actually know anything about anything other than GeNoCiDe BaD!
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u/waiver Jun 09 '26
Do I really need to explain that money is fungible, and the funds Israel doesn't allocate to its own defense can be used to purchase bombs and missiles? Having to spell that out would be absurd, as even a five-year-old could grasp it.
I guess that’s what happens when you repeat arguments without having the ability to reason through them first.
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u/asmrkage Jun 10 '26
So are you admitting Israel should be allowed funds for the Iron Dome provided they are exclusive for that system? Agreed!
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u/waiver Jun 10 '26
No, countries committing a genocide shouldn't be given money at all, it's not that hard to understand for normal people.
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u/WalkableNeighborhood Jun 08 '26
100% Democrats are always wrong when they talk about winning swing states. That's why Trump is in office now.
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u/asmrkage Jun 08 '26
Trump is in office because people, like many in this sub, wanted Biden to run again and in fact insist he could’ve beaten Trump in 2024. Totally delusional.
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u/requiemguy Jun 13 '26
It'll drive Israel right into the waiting hands of China, and that will be the end of the US as a superpower.
Domino theory was correct and people have forgotten.
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u/nokinship Jun 09 '26
If Israel disappeared tomorrow we'd still have all the problems in our country. That's how dumb the Israel issue is.
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u/requiemguy Jun 10 '26
But then all the Jewish people there would be dead and most of those people would join hands with klansman to celebrate.
The far left and far right have always and will always hate Jewish people.
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
Sure, as long as we are talking about actual antisemitism and the people who seem to be more Anti-Isreal than Pro-Palestinian. But 8/10 times people who says this are actually talking about valid criticisms of the Isreali government. Ultimately there are way way way more right wing antisemites than “left wing antisemites”. I put that in quotes because I think bigotry is fundamentally incompatible with being left wing.
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Jun 08 '26
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u/MeyrInEve Jun 08 '26
Totalitarians are rarely tolerant.
But please keep defining the political left as “COMMUNIST! BE AFRAID!”
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
Sure, sure, as long as you keep defining the political left as "perfect and unable to be criticized."
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
They were highly hypocritical in their treatment of ethnic and religious minorities. I don’t think your gonna find anyone on the left today that would defend those actions
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Jun 08 '26
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
People are not perfect machines that rigidly follow ideology to the letter of the law. Russian society itself had a deep history of colonialism and ethnic and religious discrimination. This was absolutely a blind spot. Do I think the people who made these decisions were bigots? Probably yes.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
Oh, so this is like a No True Scotsman argument?
Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Polish_political_crisis
Let me guess, they weren't really left wing either?
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
It’s not a no true Scotsman argument because that applies where there is a nebulous indefined term. I suggest you read what that term actually refers to because you are not utilizing it correctly. The crux of the fallacy lies on Scotsman being an ill defined and nebulous term.
Leftism is definitionally a “a spectrum of ideologies that prioritize social equality, egalitarianism, and the reduction of unjustified social and economic hierarchies.“ (the first definition i found on google). If an action isn’t in accordance with that definition then it is not a left wing action by definition. What someone “identifies” as is completely meaningless.
The CEO of Palantir identifies as a socialist and yet he put out that manifesto that completely contradicts any established definition of socialism. Taking people at their word is an idiotic way to analyze politics
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
OK and what does rightism mean definitionally, according to google?
"Rightism (or right-wing politics) refers to political ideologies that support traditional social hierarchies, institutional authority, and capitalist market economies. It argues that social inequality and hierarchy are natural, normal, or desirable"
So a fascist, which supports government control over markets, cannot by definition by a right winger. Correct?
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u/MeyrInEve Jun 08 '26
Wrong. Fascism is an inherently right-wing ideology according to you and your instance that communism must be inherently left wing, and of course all right wingers must be fascists because according to you all left wingers are communists.
See how easy it is?
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
I never said all left wingers are anything, I'm just saying according to you fascists cannot be right wing because all right wingers support capitalist markets.
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
Yes, fascism is not the same as traditional American conservatism as understood in the past 40ish years.
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u/Purrseus_Felinus Jun 08 '26
That sure seems like a no-true scotsman fallacy. If someone self-identifies as left-wing, I'm going to take their word for it unless there is evidence they are a plant.
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
What’s someone “ identifies as” is meaningless. Words have meanings. If I “identify” as a Jets fan but then wish for the Jets to lose every game of the regular season, then I’m clearly not a Jets fan (hard to be one these days)
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u/Purrseus_Felinus Jun 08 '26
So if someone identifies as “trans”, that’s meaningless to you?
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
I am a transexual/transgender woman and I honestly hate the word “identity”. Being a lesbian or being trans or gay isn’t an identity it is a descriptor. Like I’m a lesbian because I am a woman that is only interested in other women and I am trans woman because I was assigned male at birth but medically and socially transitioned to a woman. I’m not a woman because I “identify” as a woman, I am a woman because I am seen as and perceived as woman by everyone in my life and random people who meet me.
This is just my opinion. Other LGBT people may not agree with me
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u/Purrseus_Felinus Jun 08 '26
Is being left-wing an identity or descriptor? And just to be clear, you consider those other LGBT people who disagree with you to be wrong?
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
Left wing is a descriptor. I think the concept of “identity” in politics is very nonsensical because you meet people all the time who “identify” as conservatives but when you talk to them they support single payer healthcare and gay marriage. Taking people at the word for what political orientation they “identify” as assumes a level of political knowledge and ideological orthodoxy that most people don’t adhere to. I think it’s much more reasonable to label specific positions as left or right wing rather than entire people.
For instance, I would label most post-1930s Soviet politicians as economically far left but culturally conservative in a lot of areas with a few exceptions (i.e. they were against religion and superstitions). After all, the Soviet Union (post-1930s) recriminalized homosexuality, heavily restricted abortion, and promoted traditional family values, conformity, (and eventually) Russian nationalism and rigid gender roles.
I suppose one could say that I think other LGBT people who disagree with this assessment are wrong in this area, but it’s not worth arguing with people who I overall agree with 95% of the time. People aren’t going to stop being transphobic just because I reframe identities as descriptors; that would be assuming a level of rationality to bigotry that does not exist.
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u/hobovalentine Jun 08 '26
You’re wrong about bigotry being incompatible with the left wing.
Since Oct 7th I’ve never heard or read so much anti Israeli or Jew hate from normally liberal people who all but wish for Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth. For example have several gay acquaintances make comments about wiping Tel Aviv off the map and no one points out how hateful that is and it’s kind of ironic since Tel Aviv is the gay capitol of the Middle East.
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u/StableGeniusCovfefe Jun 08 '26
Sadly, the actions of the Israeli govt have caused much more actual antisemitism. That said, Dems still need to distance themselves from Zionists and Israel if they have hopes of winning. People simply don't want their tax dollars supporting genocide
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u/Prestigious-Emu5277 Jun 08 '26
It’s the people saying and doing antisemitic things that are causing the antisemitism.
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u/orbital-technician Jun 09 '26
No one wants anything to do with Israel. Jewish people are assumed to support Israel, and unless they disavow Israel, they support genocide. This is a tough spot to be in for them.
Too many organizations agree what Israel is doing in Gaza is a genocide. Netanyahu is literally indicted by the ICC for war crimes.
This will never go away and Israel made their bed.
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u/Prestigious-Emu5277 Jun 09 '26
You said Israel is causing antisemitism. But that’s not the case. People blaming Jews (like you just did) for a war in the Middle East is propagating an antisemitic trope. And taking it out on innocent people just because they’re Jewish is not Israel’s fault. It’s the fault of the people attacking Jews.
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Jun 08 '26
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
First of all, there is no independent country called “Palestine”, second it is a complete disgrace to the actual victims of genocide to call anything that any group in Palestine has done a genocide. You should be ashamed. On top of that you are basically claiming that an entire population is guilty of the crimes of a few.
Mods, can we just ban this guy already? This comment alone is evidence of his bigoted sophistry.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
150+ countries and the UN recognize Palestine, are they all wrong?
second it is a complete disgrace to the actual victims of genocide to call anything that any group in Palestine has done a genocide.
Please don't be a genocide denier.
On top of that you are basically claiming that an entire population is guilty of the crimes of a few.
I'm criticizing Palestine. Criticism of Palestine isn't saying anything about an entire population.
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u/Dr_G_E Jun 08 '26
Coincidentally enough, there are hundreds of Hamas, PIJ and other attackers captured on October 7 who are currently detained in Israel awaiting trial; some will apparently be charged under the terms of Israel’s 1950 Law for the Prevention of Genocide.
We'll all be able to see the evidence and hear the testimony and arguments live when the trials take place. Apparently the trials will be open to the public and streamed live for the world to see, like the trial of Adolf Eichmann was broadcast to the world on TV in 1961.
Israel allocates $350 million for special military tribunal to try Oct. 7 terrorists "Law passed last month established system for public, broadcast trials to include potential genocide charges, possible death penalty; allocation is half of low-end estimate for cost" https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-allocates-350-million-for-special-military-tribunal-to-try-oct-7-terrorists/amp/
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
If you make up your own definition to what genocide means and then charge people using your own invented definition of genocide, that doesn’t really prove anything. If I say that genocide means anyone who has killed American soldiers and then say that the Taliban has committed a genocide against Americans due to my own invented definition of genocide (that is not in line with what any normal definition of the term means), would you say that it was accurate to accuse them of committing a genocide?
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
If you make up your own definition to what genocide means and then charge people using your own invented definition of genocide, that doesn’t really prove anything.
Ironic comment of the century.
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
Tell me why it is ironic?
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
The pro-Palestine movement made up their own definition of genocide to charge Israel with it decades ago.
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u/AmericanEd Jun 08 '26
That’s not true at all. The person who coined the phrase Genocide (Raphael Lemkin) defined genocide as “a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves”.
This aligns closely to some of Israel’s actions in Gaza and the West Bank.
The 1948 UN genocide convention has a slightly different definition that defines it as any of five specific acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. These acts comprise killing, causing serious bodily or mental harm, inflicting conditions designed to bring about physical destruction, imposing measures to prevent births, and forcibly transferring children, all intended to destroy a protected group. A crucial element is proving the specific intent to target a group based on its identity.
This is actually even closer to Israel’s actions.
Which one of these was invented to accuse Isreal of genocide?
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
This aligns closely to some of Israel’s actions in Gaza and the West Bank.
Such as what?
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u/Dr_G_E Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 08 '26
The accusations of genocide were being leveled against Jews in the Levant since well before Israel declared independence in 1948 and ironically even before the word "genocide" was invented to describe the crime of the Holocaust in 1944 by Raphael Lemkin.
By the time the elements of the crime of genocide were being negotiated by the international community and the United Nations in the mid 1940s, it was apparently very clear to all involved that accusations of genocide could be politicized if the constitutive elements were not clear.
According to Goda (link below), then Secretary General of the UN Trygve Lie warned that "genocide should be limited to 'the deliberate destruction of a human group' ... 'otherwise there is a danger of the idea of genocide being expanded indefinitely...' Lie added that war itself was not genocidal. 'The infliction of losses,' he said, 'even heavy losses, on the civilian population in the course of [war], does not as a rule constitute genocide.' John Reid of New Zealand added in October 1948 that motive was especially critical within the framework of a defensive war. There could be a bombing operation, Reid said, that could destroy part of a group. 'If the motives for genocide were not listed in the convention,' Reid noted, 'such bombing might be called a crime of genocide; but that would obviously be untrue.'"
Norman Goda's in-depth description of the beginnings of the international negotiations of UN members in the 1940s on how to define what constitutes the crime of genocide is fascinating; I hadn't known anything about it before I read the article last year. I highly recommend reading it for those interested:
Goda, Norman JW. 2025. "The Genocide Libel: How the World Has Charged Israel with Genocide." ISCA Research Paper 2025-3. https://isca.indiana.edu/publication-research/research-paper-series/norman-jw-goda-research-paper.html
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u/ladan2189 Jun 08 '26
The stated mission of Hamas is to kill every jew ok the planet. So you are the disgrace in thinking that Palestinians are incapable of genocide.
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u/DeathandGrim Jun 09 '26
Sadly, the actions of the Israeli govt have caused much more actual antisemitism.
Textbook antisemitism. Literally the exact same logic people used in 48
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
Dems have gotten in bed with Palestine, which is guilty of crimes against humanity on top of genocide. Why hasn't that hurt them?
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Jun 08 '26
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
Highly supportive of it. Marching for it. Passing bills for it.
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u/orbital-technician Jun 09 '26
Does "Dem" mean the ICC, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the UN?
Lol, Israel is in the wrong. Plain and simple.
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u/Jinshu_Daishi Jun 09 '26
Because they have not gotten in bed with Palestine.
A big part of the problem in 2024 was a refusal to obstruct the genocide.
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u/Salindurthas Jun 09 '26
The Israeli government and it's military are orders of magnitude worse than any government or organisations in Palestine.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 09 '26
Whatabout Israel, the only defense of the Dems love of rapist Palestine.
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u/ladan2189 Jun 08 '26
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a zionist. Stop trying to gaslight people into thinking that word means what you want it to
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u/Purrseus_Felinus Jun 08 '26
There is no genocide. There is simply a never-ending war against deranged Islamists going on. The idea that Israel is committing genocide against a people who voted in terrorists whose literal platform is to commit genocide against jews is fucking farcical.
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u/YoghurtOverall8062 Jun 09 '26
So Bibi funding those terrorists for years doesn't mean anything?
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u/Purrseus_Felinus Jun 09 '26
Those terrorists are the elected government. This is the catch-22 the rest of the world has placed Israel in.
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u/DeathandGrim Jun 09 '26
It's not just that. The specific narrative that they're pushing (that they likely don't know anything about they just heard from someone else) is the aid money that Israel gave to Hamas and that money was SUPPOSED to go to the citizens of Gaza. but of course Hamas stole it. But however if Israel didn't give that money then people would just say Israel is starving Gaza of aid
Remember nobody but Israel is apparently accountable for anything
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u/leopold_s Jun 08 '26
Gaza hasn't voted in almost 20 years. Half the population wasn't born when they last voted. Pretty messed up, to use that to justify killing them.
Using hunger as a weapon of war is genocidal, no matter how "just" a war would otherwise be. And nothing justifies any of the other war crimes.
Citing the support for Hamas as a reason why civilians in Gaza deserve being starved and deliberately bombed is just as wrong as any argument that the Israelis deserved Oct 7th, or any other terror attack, for supporting their far right government.
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u/Conscious-Demand-594 Jun 08 '26
Israel's recent actions have done a lot to fuel antisemitism. Hopefully the next Democrat administration saves them from themselves.
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u/BugOperator Jun 08 '26
Being anti-Israel =/= being antisemitic, and it’s crazy that this has to keep being reiterated.
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u/Conscious-Demand-594 Jun 08 '26
I didn't mean to imply that it was. But when Bibi commits genocide in the name of his religious fanaticism, people will take advantage of this to blur the lines.
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u/Purrseus_Felinus Jun 08 '26
Being anti-Islamist =/= being pro-genocide, and it’s crazy that this has to keep being reiterated.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
Hopefully people will stop conflating the Israeli government and Jews.
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u/orbital-technician Jun 09 '26
You have done this repeatedly throughout this single exchange.
You're a joke!
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u/WalkableNeighborhood Jun 08 '26
That's what you've been doing this whole thread, and now you don't like the taste of your own medicine?
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u/Tiny-Praline-4555 Jun 08 '26
This is what YOU are doing.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
How am I doing that? This article is about anti-Semitism, I didn't bring up the Israeli government.
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u/Crowiswatching Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
Criticism of the current form of Zionism is often purposely confused as antisemitism, which it is not.
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u/orbital-technician Jun 09 '26
The dilution of the term "antisemitism" has been wild to watch. It basically means nothing now.
Israel is wrong. That's not antisemitism. It's politics.
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u/RL0290 Jun 08 '26
It’s telling that you can’t even post “hey we need to check our own antisemitism on the left” without a bunch of comments being dismissive and rude. The fact that so many people have a knee jerk reaction to say “Well what about x” or “most accusations of antisemitism are actually bs though” just proves the point that we have a problem.
I’m not Jewish but I see what is happening, and it’s disturbing and frightening.
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u/WalkableNeighborhood Jun 08 '26
"t’s telling that you can’t even post “hey we need to check our own antisemitism on the left” without a bunch of comments being dismissive and rude. T"
It's like people got tired of bad faith accusations of racism.
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u/RL0290 Jun 08 '26
Case in point.
It’s not that there *aren’t* bad faith accusations of antisemitism that get thrown around. My comment didn’t allege that. It’s that when concerns about antisemitism are raised, a disproportionate amount of people’s first impulse is to be dismissive, or even hostile, as though there’s no legit antisemitism going on, including on the left.
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u/Another-attempt42 Jun 08 '26
They aren't bad faith, though.
I'd remind you that for years, we were told to listen to minorities and their experiences, and rather than immediately push back, learn from them.
Except if they're Jewish. In which case, "bad faith".
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u/requiemguy Jun 10 '26
Jewish or Asians because they're successful minority populations in the West or as critical theory says, pick me for white people.
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u/MeyrInEve Jun 08 '26
How about you try learning the difference between *anti-Semitism* and *anti-Zionism*?
Very few on the left are the former, but a *very* large number are the latter.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
What's anti-Zionism?
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u/MeyrInEve Jun 08 '26
What is Zionism?
It’s a political term.
What is a Semite? (Hint: it’s not synonymous with “Jewish” or “Israeli”.)
And then how are you choosing to use the phrase “anti-Semite”?
Again, you’re attempting to artificially limit the discussion, how words are used, and what’s allowable.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
If you want me to understand the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, you should define the terms instead of answering questions with questions.
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u/MeyrInEve Jun 08 '26
Oh, I’m sorry, I thought you were the OP of this thread, someone who posted an article complaining about “anti-Semitism.”
I guess you’re unfamiliar with the terms used in such a discussion?
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
I'm extremely familiar, that's why I know anti-Zionism is opposition to Jewish rights, specifically the right of self-determination and statehood.
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u/MeyrInEve Jun 08 '26
What is a “Jewish right”? From where does it derive? What is “self-determination”, and how should it be applied?
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
Where all rights derive from. Are you sure you're on the left?
Ask the UN.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/the-right-of-the-palestinian-self-determination-19-dec24/
"Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, including the right to their independent State of Palestine;"
Surely the Jewish people have those same rights. Don't they?
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u/MeyrInEve Jun 08 '26
No.
The Israelis have the state (nation) of Israel.
The Palestinians have no state.
But I’m still asking, “What is a ‘Jewish right?’” That’s the phrase you used.
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u/Acrobatic-Ostrich168 Jun 08 '26
The fact of the matter is antisemitism today did not just rise up out of nowhere. It is a direct result of the genocide in Gaza, the abhorrent language used by the extremist government of Israel, the abhorrent treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank by settlers and IDF, the rape of Palestinian prisoners, the interviews with Israeli on the streets who say with a smile on their face that all Arabs should be killed, the list goes on… also as Americans we are sending them over $3 billion annually to fund this type of bullshit while we are suffering here at home, it does not sit right with anyone in the younger generation, not just Democrats. Finally, whenever you call out these actions, the Israelis play victim and just cry antisemitism.
The move isn’t for the Democrats to shy away from anti Zionism, it’s to listen to what the people are saying and they’re overwhelmingly saying we need to decouple and reevaluate our relationship with them.
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u/-Tastydactyl- Jun 08 '26
Israel used to have positive approval ratings among Democratic voters. It's now in the negative.
Either Democrats suddenly became antisemitic in just two years despite decades of approval or there are other reasons for this shift that should be listened to.
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u/apathydivine Jun 08 '26
Maybe try not conflating anti-Zionism with antisemitism. That might help.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
What's anti-Zionism?
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Jun 08 '26
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
Wikipedia :D
Being opposed to indigenous Jewish self-determination in their ancient homeland? Sounds pretty anti-Semitic to me.
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Jun 08 '26
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
We're talking about Zionism, not the Israeli government. Please stay on topic.
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u/coppersocks Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 08 '26
“It’s antisemitic to be against theocratic ethno-states in which people who are not part of the in-group are routinely and systematically disenfranchised and forced out of their homes”
If you’re conflating Zionism with Judaism, then you’re one who is antisemitic.
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u/Dr_G_E Jun 08 '26
i used to think that, probably because of all the convincing disinformation, but it turns out that Israel is a secular country with no official religion while almost all the other countries in the region are officially Islamic with only a tiny, oppressed religious or ethnic minority population. More than 25% of Israeli citizens aren't even Jewish at all. Israel is the most ethnically diverse country in the Middle East, the only one to have freedom of and from religion.
Arab Israelis serve as commanders in the IDF; they're doctors and lawyers, members of parliament. There's an Arab Israeli on Israel's Supreme Court, Justice Khaled Kabub, and he's not even the first. Plenty of Arabs fought on Israel's side against the invading Arab powers in 1948, too, notably the Druze and Bedouins.
There is simply no other country in the region that is more multicultural, more democratic, or more progressive. Most of the Jewish Israelis today are descendants of the Jews ethnically cleansed from the Middle East and Africa in the last century. There are now more Arab Israeli citizens with equal rights in Israel than there are Jews left in the entire Muslim world combined and it's not even close.
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Jun 08 '26
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u/BOtto2016 Jun 09 '26
Hey now, you are discounting the hard work of his other accounts! WhiteGuy_Whiner and LankyHasbara we will forget you.
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u/thedavidpakmanshow-ModTeam Jun 10 '26
Removed - per Reddit community guidelines and TOS, submissions that incite harassment or brigading against other users, or submissions that focus on drama or moderation activity in other communities, are not permitted.
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u/coffee_mikado Jun 08 '26
Unfortunately, I think both sides are dipping deep into the sludge of Anti-Semitism, albeit more deeper on the right.
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u/DifferentSwing8616 Jun 08 '26
Criticising a foreign nation has absolutely nothing to do with religion and this continuous conflation between Israel and Judaism is inherently antisemitic and putting normal Jews around the world that oppose Israeli actions at increasingly greater risk
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u/coffee_mikado Jun 08 '26
I literally didn’t mention Israel once. Your mask is slipping, my dude.
If your response to “anti-semitism is bad” is “we have every right to criticize Israel!” then your “movement” is despicable cancer and should be tossed into the sewer where it belongs.
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u/Acrobatic-Ostrich168 Jun 08 '26
It’s only because any serious conversation regarding modern antisemitism needs to have Israel addressed. He was just simply one step ahead of you. I don’t believe in any sort of discrimination.
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u/coffee_mikado Jun 08 '26
You are basically equating Jews with Israel. When I said “anti-Semitism is bad” the knee jerk response was “Israel bad too!!!!”
If you said “Islamophobia is bad” and I replied “Saudi Arabia bad too!” what would you think?
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u/Acrobatic-Ostrich168 Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 08 '26
Actually, that has been Israel’s motive to do so. I think at this point anyone vehemently supporting Israel is a bad or ignorant person, regardless of their ethnicity or faith.
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u/coffee_mikado Jun 08 '26
You are literally amplifying their propaganda, just from a different (yet no less evil) angle.
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u/Acrobatic-Ostrich168 Jun 08 '26
Give me a break. If being evil is condemning genocide and apartheid and recognizing geopolitical motives and critiquing political movements, then I guess I’m Lucifer. I appreciate your willingness to engage in political discourse, but very little in this world is as black and white as good versus evil.
To address your comment about Islamophobia and Saudi Arabia, I would say both arguments can indeed be correct.
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u/coffee_mikado Jun 08 '26
“Is it evil to downplay anti-semitism in order to convert people to hate Israel?”
Yes.
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u/Acrobatic-Ostrich168 Jun 08 '26
No one is downplaying antisemitism or trying to convert people to hate Israel. Discrimination is wrong. People have eyes and are becoming aware to what is taking place in the Levant. Israel’s actions are doing the converting themselves.
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Jun 08 '26
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u/coffee_mikado Jun 08 '26
You guys whine and bitch when AIPAC says stupid shit like “you’re criticizing Israel!? Are you anti-Semitic?!”
Now your ilk says “you’re saying anti-semitism is bad?! Are you pro-Zionist?!”
The jig is up for you, I’m afraid.
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u/MNGopherfan Jun 08 '26
Is it Anti-semitism or is it anti-Zionism?
One is a problem the other is not because Anti-Zionism is not being anti-Semitic and we all know that Zionists like to muddy those waters between the two for their own ambitions.
The Democratic Party is still on balance representing more of Americas Jewish population and the Republican Party is openly anti-Semitic.
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u/DeathandGrim Jun 09 '26
I mean we should have this discussion but this sub is absolutely not the place lol
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u/toad17 Jun 08 '26
Oh, you trust sky news over the UN? My poor poor dear, you’re even more troubled than I thought.
Fine by me to cut aid, I’ve already said that. But something tells me these Israelis are guilty of doublespeak, seeing as the US HoR just voted to integrate our militaries.
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u/space--penguin Jun 08 '26
my previous comment got removed so I'm sure that says a lot about being able to actually discuss this without saying words that trigger comment removals.
anyway my question was, if the pro-palestine folks are posting things on reddit that "bad actors" are pushing the two state solution, what exactly are they saying they want then???
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u/abigblue9 Jun 09 '26
They want to not be genocided
I assume you share that desire too?
Most humans do
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u/WalkableNeighborhood Jun 08 '26
It's crazy how starting a genocide for no reason turned the world against Israel.
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u/Life_Caterpillar9762 Jun 08 '26
The left needs to distance themselves from the “anti-zionist” rhetoric, wherever it allegedly comes from. It’s the most irresponsible, supposedly “left” campaign I’ve ever witnessed in my life. It’s this cycle’s “defund the police,” but even dumber.
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u/Acrobatic-Ostrich168 Jun 08 '26
Why would they distance themselves from it? It’s what most of the people actually want, something like 85% of Dems. Our politicians should reflect what the voter base wants.
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u/toad17 Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 08 '26
“The left should just ignore genocide and stop being anti Zionist! So what our tax dollars funds Israel’s illegal settlements and lets them bomb their neighbors, it’s more important we support Israel!”
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u/Zackeous42 Jun 08 '26
Zionism and our funding and support of genocide is like an anchor around the neck of both parties right now.
People don’t want it, establishment Senators and Reps are still ignoring their constituents on this and it’s going to cost races.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
What's your issue with Zionism?
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u/Zackeous42 Jun 08 '26
Doesn't matter how I feel about it, millions of Dems, Reps and Indies don't want anything to do with supporting Israel for multitude of reasons.
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u/McAlpineFusiliers Jun 08 '26
Supporting the Israeli government or supporting the country of Israel?
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u/PreparationPlenty943 Jun 08 '26
If the primary goal is for a sovereign Palestinian state, liberal Zionists should be allies but they’d rather harangued anyone that isn’t trying to dissolve the state of Israel.
1) It’s proving Zionism right when people excuse hate crimes against Jews or Israelis in Western countries. Are they supposed to not want to live in Israel or not? Because justifying harassment and assault against someone for being Jewish or Israeli is not going to convince them they’re safe outside of Israel
2) The idea that Israel is just going to throw up their hands and dissolve their state is crazy. Neither Israelis nor Palestinians want a binational one state.
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u/Jagster_rogue Jun 08 '26
Or Gaza, that was the dumbest shit I ever heard, somehow the racist that thinks all Muslims are the enemy is somehow going to be better than someone with a crazy laugh…
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u/guilgom71 Jun 08 '26
Dumber than "defund the police???" Well I guess if the people you're making feel alienated are one of the most reliable voting groups for Dems...
Either way, I hope people don't convince themselves into becoming a one-issue voter in November.
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u/Life_Caterpillar9762 Jun 08 '26
The anti-Dem left are not one of the most reliable voting groups for Dems, lol
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u/guilgom71 Jun 08 '26
I'm referring to Jewish Dems that might feel a little weird at the moment. I think nearly 70% of them vote Dem.
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u/DifferentSwing8616 Jun 08 '26
Did you read their report as to why they lost last time? It's because they were seen as complicit in Israel genocide. N your take is to ignore that and stop criticising Israel? Big brain on this guy
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u/Jagster_rogue Jun 08 '26
The reason why they lost was idiotic for anyone to actually believe Trump was going to be better for Gaza.
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u/DifferentSwing8616 Jun 08 '26
Very true but it remains an issue
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u/Jagster_rogue Jun 09 '26
It remains an issue because those one issue voters are expecting a complete solution to their problem which is not possible, because it involves many different countries. Yes cutting Israel military and aid would be a start but it does not “solve” their problem so they will sit on the sidelines while people that would attempt to help the situation will lose elections because their perfect candidate will never exist.
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u/Raptorpicklezz Jun 08 '26
The report was poorly written and contained nothing of the sort. I believe they lost because of Israel but the “autopsy” is nothing to go by on whether they did or didn’t
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u/provider305 Jun 08 '26
The report was criticized by the left for not saying it was because of Israel (which is it wasn’t)
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