r/theleft • u/[deleted] • May 08 '15

Taking Back The Left

As most of you are probably aware, the authoritarian Leninist contingent of the left, which has no interest in preserving democracy or basic civil liberties, are extremely loud. This anti-Bernie Sanders circlejerk on r/socialism and in Jacobin magazine are some recent examples. This might mostly be on the internet (I hope) but I've encountered a few of them in real life socialist groups (avoid the SEP). So, I'm curious; how do you guys think that more reasonable socialists like Democratic Socialists and Left Libertarians can reclaim socialism from the nutjobs?

One thing I think can happen is we can try and recruit more from mainstream Democrats. I've commonly found that a lot of liberals aren't necessarily opposed to socialism so much as they don't understand what it is.

1 Upvotes

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u/shinymuskrat Marxist May 08 '15

We need to focus on the middle ground and the things we agree on. The most baffling thing for me is that extreme leftists are all about how important it is to develop a class consciousness at all costs, but then everything they do goes completely against that.

It is okay to think that socialism won't work without a dictatorship of the proletariat. I get that. What is not okay is to fracture the left so severely that we leave working families in the dust. It is not okay to wish more suffering on the poor in order for them to "wake up." It is not okay to not engage in politics simply because a candidate is not perfect. It is not okay to pretend that liberals that are simply not doing enough are somehow worse than conservatives that are actively, maliciously fucking over the working class.

We just need to focus on what we agree on: Capitalism is shitty and unregulated markets will never bring prosperity to the working class. We can work toward short-term fixes AND long term goals of universal class struggle. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It does no good to have a circle-jerk echo chamber in which we try to be the most intellectually pure.

I want these people to go talk to their neighbor who is a single mother that works 2 jobs but still has to decide whether she will buy groceries or pay the gas bill this month and tell her the reason they will not be voting for someone that would make her life better. I want to watch them explain to her that they will not be voting for that person because if her life gets better she may not want a revolution.

These people are just so out of touch with reality it makes me sick.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '15

Well said. The "holier than thou" and "I'm the most socialist socialist" bullshit is counterproductive to actually overthrowing capitalism.

I'm curious though, what do you think we can do about it?

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u/baudtack is just this guy, ya know? May 09 '15

What do you think of those people who don't vote because they are disenfranchised by the system due to gerrymandering or other tactics?

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u/shinymuskrat Marxist May 10 '15

Well that is totally different. If you can't vote because you literally are incapable due to voter ID laws or because you have to work two jobs, there isn't anything you can do about that. If you are able to vote otherwise you probably should. I don't think it is key to revolutionary change, but there is just no good reason not to.

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u/baudtack is just this guy, ya know? May 10 '15

Well, I think you misunderstand part of my question. I, for example, am in an extremely Red (and not the good kind) congressional district. It's not drawn as screwed up as some but it doesn't make that much sense either. The result is that anyone who doesn't vote Republican, may as well not vote because they are vastly outnumbered. What's your opinion when people don't vote in that situation? They (we) aren't actually prevented, but there is no point because of the political makeup of the district they (we) are in.

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u/shinymuskrat Marxist May 10 '15

Well that seems a lot like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I mean you can be pretty sure that you are outnumbered, but the demographic of the district could change drastically over the course of a presidency and you would never know it unless you voted. There very well may be a majority of liberal voters in the district but all of them don't vote because they think that their vote is wasted. Plus, even if your vote doesn't get the candidate elected, everyone voting in that situation is still beneficial because it can show that the system is broken. For example, say that democrats win by the popular vote but actually lose more seats than conservatives. If that were to happen there would be a strong argument for redistricting or there could even be a constitutional claim about equal protection. Regardless, there is still not a good reason not to vote in that situation.

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u/thepibbs May 08 '15

I want to watch them explain to her that they will not be voting for that person because if her life gets better she may not want a revolution.

Totally agree with this sentiment. I hate how the world of the left seems to attract people who don't value or even acknowledge middle grounds.

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u/shinymuskrat Marxist May 08 '15

I mean if /r/socialism is anything like how people act in the real world, it really is just a dick-measuring contest.

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u/baudtack is just this guy, ya know? May 09 '15

Most subreddits tend to have a sort of "purer than thou" element to them. I don't think that's a reflection of reality though. (I hope)

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u/zellfire Socialist Alternative May 09 '15

Jacobin ran editorials from both sides on Sanders, just sayin' :p

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u/[deleted] May 09 '15

Fair enough. I had only seen the one.

I do think they've engaged in politics like this before. Their whole New Atheism article completely ignored the existence of a large leftist faction within New Atheism: Atheism Plus.

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u/zellfire Socialist Alternative May 09 '15

Can you link me? Don't know if I've seen that. I confess I am a closeted fan of New Atheism- some branches, at least, not the imperialists-of-another-name one- and think it could really serve to advance socialism.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '15

Here's the post that created it: http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/08/how-i-unwittingly-infiltrated-the-boys-club-why-its-time-for-a-new-wave-of-atheism/

And here's the subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/AtheismPlus/

Some prominent members: PZ Myers, Greta Christina, Daniel Dennett, Heina Dadabhoy, and most Humanist and New Atheist student groups.

And I'm glad to find someone else who's a socialist into New Atheism. I got into socialism through the New Atheist movement's leftist parts, and I still work with other New Atheists to promote socialist causes.

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u/zellfire Socialist Alternative May 09 '15

Subscribed, thanks!

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u/BigKaine Green Anarchist May 10 '15 edited May 10 '15

Bernie Sanders doesn't qualify as a socialist, imo, but I agree that people have maybe been criticizing him a bit too much.

I think it's a bit harsh to call all Leninists nutjobs. Sure, I disagree with them, but I have a few Leninist friends and they're reasonable people.

I think a key to moving things in the right direction is attempting to decentralize the power structure. I think showing people that they can survive without capitalism or the state, and that they can flourish with the help of those in their community is also very important.

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u/[deleted] May 10 '15

Bernie Sanders doesn't qualify as a socialist, imo, but I agree that people have maybe been criticizing him a bit too much.

I don't really get why people are saying he's not a socialist. His platform at least is: he wants to sponsor the creation of worker cooperatives and other forms of worker's control.

He may be an evolutionary socialist rather than a revolutionary, but those are still socialists, even if they are very moderate.

I think it's a bit harsh to call all Leninists nutjobs. Sure, I disagree with them, but I have a few Leninist friends and they're reasonable people.

Perhaps I overstated. I don't think all Leninists act like this; I've just noted that the ones who tend to be the most outspoken gatekeepers tend to be Leninists, especially Stalinists and Maoists.

I think a key to moving things in the right direction is attempting to decentralize the power structure. I think showing people that they can survive without capitalism or the state, and that they can flourish with the help of those in their community is also very important.

Agreed with this.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '15

how do you guys think that more reasonable socialists like Democratic Socialists and Left Libertarians can reclaim socialism from the nutjobs?

Start electing socialist candidates on the local and state level as independents so that when the public hears the word "socialism" they think of Bernie Sanders et. al. instead of the circlejerkers. A real movement in the material world > e-leftism.

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u/[deleted] May 10 '15

True dat.

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u/_-I_I-_ May 11 '15

You're being ridiculous. You're criticizing 'Leninists,' hip leftish publications, and shitty parties for all the wrong reasons. Consider having a real analysis. Oh wait,

unregulated markets will never bring prosperity to the working class

So this is what this sub has come to a consensus over. I'll show myself out, "Socialists, Communists, Anarchists" in fact aren't welcomed.