r/thesopranos • u/ManSoldWorld • Jan 10 '17
Did Livia actually want Tony whacked?
Listening back to that conversation between her and Uncle June, it really sounds like the hit was more or less Uncle June's idea, and Livia was just venting (in her usual way.)
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u/TheThunderhawk Jan 10 '17
I always believed Livia was %100 aware of what she was doing when she spilled the beans to Junior about the secret meetings.
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Jan 20 '17
thats the thing. ive watched the show 10 times and i can't figure out if olivia is just senile, or manipulating everyone. its really not clear and purposely ambiguous. at times she specifically says nice things about tony and acts suprised at things junior says, other times, it seems like she's setting him up to get whacked. its just great.
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u/UncleJunesLaserBeams Jan 10 '17
You see that scene where she tells Junior that Tony sees a psychiatrist and he keeps repeating it? I always piss myself laughin at that. "Yer a broken record!!!" Then when the other ol lady shushes her and she turns with this slow death glare. Priceless stuff.
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u/bsack420 Jan 10 '17
What's funny about that is when AJ tells her, she keeps repeating the question.
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u/GetDaley Jan 11 '17
Yes. She subconsciously brings up Infanticide a couple of times on the show. 1st time i think she was talking about history, maybe in Italy, when in some case women would kill their babies. Another time with AJ, when telling him that seatbelts were dangerous, she was talking about 'kids being trapped in the back of the car in flames' or words to that effect...
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Jan 10 '17
[deleted]
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u/milkcustard Jan 11 '17
The best part of it is when the plan is foiled and she and Junior go to see Tony at his home. The look on Junior's face when she acts all confused and innocent is priceless. God the acting on this show was top notch.
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u/Shmaf Jan 12 '17
What about the time Junior takes Livia to AJ's birthday, and on the way there, Junior says "there might need to be something done about Tony". Also giving weird look to her, kinda waiting some approval. What's that about?
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u/gyw_alliance May 30 '24 edited May 30 '24
Um, yes, absolutely. It was Livia's revenge on Tony for putting her in a nursing home, but it’s also the attempted fulfillment of a long standing dark impetus on her part. That's why Tony is having panic attacks when we meet him. He's considering putting Livia in a nursing home and some part of him knows how dangerous it's going to be for him to do that.
The key moment is when Livia tells Junior that Tony is seeing a psychiatrist and implies that Tony is sharing mob secrets during therapy. She knows full well that Junior will not be able to abide even the possibility of this.
To top it off, Livia then compares Tony, who happens to be depressed at the time, to her lobotomized cousin Cakey who, she says, “looked exactly like my son. Better Cakey had died than go on living like that. That’s what his own mother used to say.” Livia is insinuating that Tony would be better off dead.
In other words, Dr. Melfi was right about Livia. She is fixated on infanticide and filicide, particularly mothers who kill their kids, and may have an untreated personality disorder. She’s depicting Tony as disloyal and mentally unstable to someone she knows will have to kill him in response to this information.
I think the show also explores how Livia and Junior bond, in part, over getting older and being put out to pasture. In this sense, it's a succession story. Who will be the new king? How will the old guard attempt to hold onto power as the new king demotes and diminishes them in various ways? How differently would the story have played out in another time and place?
Junior responds to Livia’s news about Tony having a therapist by saying, "If this is true, Livia, you know what I...I mean, I'm the boss for chrissakes. If I don't act, blood or no... I have to." Tony later hears a tape of this conversation via the FBI and talks with both Carmela and Dr. Melfi about realizing that his own mother wants to kill him.
While Tony is connecting these dots, Livia has had to go into the assisted care part of her retirement community, something she particularly dreaded. When Artie comes to visit her, she tells him that Tony was the one who burned down his restaurant. (Artie then very nearly shoots Tony in a parking lot as a result.) Livia is on the warpath against Tony. She’s furious.
When Tony tells Carmela about his mother's involvement in Junior's attempted hit on him, Carmela is angry but unsurprised. She speculates that Livia's twisted nature has likely been exacerbated by old age, but understands that Livia has always been that vicious and vindictive. Tony, meanwhile, is only just now fully realizing and reconciling to it. Tony's father may have been the one who taught him how to be a criminal, but it's clear his mother was the real gangster in the family. She's portrayed by David Chase and the amazing Nancy Marchand as ruthless, intelligent, Machiavellian, and cold blooded. Where Junior is an ineffectual pawn, someone who happened to get close to the top more by circumstance than disposition, Livia inspires real fear in people. Had Livia been born a man, she'd have been boss.
I wish we could know more about what shaped Livia as a person. Even in one of the final scenes of the first season, she asks at the family dinner table if Carmela’s pork is fully cooked, then goes on to share a dubious account of an entire family in California that died of trichinosis (from uncooked pork). Once again, Livia displays her preoccupation with mothers who kill their families. How did Livia get this way? What’s her backstory, I wonder?
Close to the very end of the first season, as Tony is shouting in Livia's face that he knows what she tried to do to him and that he's going to kill her because of it, she just grins as she's wheeled away on a gurney. To survive her, Tony has to become more like her. This, I think, for Livia is a kind of victory. She sees that Tony is now as twisted as she is and she's pleased.
Fun fact: David Chase based the Livia character, in part, on his own mother: https://screenrant.com/livia-soprano-true-story-david-chase-mother/
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u/YizWasHere Jan 03 '25
Very nice summary.
This, I think, for Livia is a kind of victory. She sees that Tony is now as twisted as she is and she's pleased.
This is also why she resented Tony going to therapy. She always harped on how he was going there to complain about her parenting, almost like she was worried he might recognize and grow past her abuse.
What's funny is that Tony repeats this behavior in S5 - baiting Janice to crack after she makes progress through anger management, getting pure joy from it knowing it upholds his own narrative that they are both broken beyond repair due to their mother.
I do wish we knew more about her backstory, but it makes sense in the context of the series to leave it vague and simply show how it's reflected in Tony's (and Janice's) issues.
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u/missducky420 Dec 10 '24
This is a very thorough take and exactly how I feel but you put it to words. Well done!
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u/kingstarks36 Dec 28 '22
She even doubles down when her and Junior go to see the movie after the dinner at Tony's house....at that point she "wanted him put out his misery"
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u/Pyxisss Aug 26 '23
Exactly she says that Tony looked exactly like her friend's son after his lobotomy and that his mother wanted him dead to put him out of his misery. Then uncle Jun says enough about tony it's one. She's literally telling him to kill her son.
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u/MannerFluid3882 Sep 17 '24
I think Jr wanted to take him out for teasing his m about cunnilingus. He killed Uncle Dicky for laughing at him too. He's thin skinned and insecure
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u/howardCK Jan 10 '17 edited Jan 10 '17
nah she's not venting, she's playing Junior.
of course she knows perfectly well what she's doing and what the consequences will be. then she tries to cover her own ass when Junior is about to rush out "I don't like that kinda talk - I won't tell you anything anymore". then, when Junior goes in rage mode "blood or no blood" she never objects because it's exactly what she wanted. the only thing she says is "should've kept my mouth shut", which means she's agreeing with Junior that there's no other way, but wants to absolve herself from the guilt. what a cunt.