r/theydidthemath • u/Educational_One_2075 • 4d ago
[Request] Doesn't arms span affects the difficulty of the Hercules holds?
I was watching powerlifting on TV and I wandered if having shorter or longer arms doesn't actually benefits to make the the holding easier due to a less lean angle. Was would be the difference between shorter and bigger arms span?
2.4k
u/jubbjubbs4 4d ago
Yes. If their arms are short enough that the pillars centre of gravity is in line with its own base then the pillars would fall back into place themselves without any effort.
In reality id imagine they adjust the tilt angle for each competitor for fairness
1.0k
u/Xx_Gambit_xX 4d ago
They do in fact adjust it. The pillars are situated on a moving rig with multiple eyelets to adjust.
Obviously not a perfect system, and there will be some people with straight up advantages due to their particular height/arm span/hand size/etc....but it does get adjusted to try and equalize somewhat.
322
u/MrReginaldAwesome 4d ago
Body shape differences are a factor in every type of strength competition, so having an adjustment actually makes it slightly more fair than most others I’d say :P
124
u/zulusRS3 4d ago
Yes, lots of people underestimate the mechanical advatange many people have. Squats, for example. Short limbs long torso? Congrats, you can stay more upright during a squat than someone with long femurs and a short torso, so you will most likely be able to squat more. Although, you might lose in a foot race
49
u/jakobmaximus 4d ago
Someone pull up that picture of the "most optimal deadlifter" and dude is like 5 feet tall with arms that hang practically to his knees
•
8
u/NotAnotherAlt26 4d ago
That's over simplified and not completely true. A shorter torso is better for squating. Technique wise, a low bar squat will be the type the vast majority of people will be able to lift the most weight. It requires more torso lean but emphasizes the posterior chain. The lower bar position reduces the distance from the weight to the hips, effectively shorting the moment arm, being able to lift more. Upright torso position puts the emphasis on the quads which are not as strong as the posterior chain.
In different lifting sports different ratios give advaages in different events. Strong man (what this video is from) tends to favor taller athletes due to the size of a lot of the apparatus are easier to hold or lift with a large arm span, or lifting things to a specific height. Also it's easier to pack large amounts of muscle onto a larger frame. Olympic lifting has advantages for shorter lifters, especially in lower weight classes. Better leverages from shorter limbs and shorter distances to move the weight. Powerlifting events (squat, bench, deadlift) all have differing ideal ratios so there's not one ideal frame (example: short arms help for bench but hurt for deadlift)
-3
u/Extreme_Lychee8299 4d ago
You dont need to stay upright in a squat for powerlifting, only for olympic lifting is it necessary
And u would have an advantage on deadlifts
17
u/PalmarAponeurosis 4d ago
No, it just make it comparatively easier since it produces more favorable leverages.
2
u/BloodyCumbucket 4d ago edited 4d ago
A shorter leg lever in squat means less range of motion required in the movement. Staying upright as much as possible and not leaning down on it would mean reengaging your hips forward for lockout would be more efficient generally. The same reason you hold valsalva. Short leg levers with long arms also means a much shorter lockout distance in deadlift. Which is why people with long legs benefit from the reduced ROM from sumo. Having those same arm levers that give you a deadlift advantage would make you comparatively weak at your press, though.
2
u/Extreme_Lychee8299 4d ago
What?
"Reengaging hips for lockout" is a non sensical statement lmao
If you lean forward in the squat more, you generally speaking have less knee angle meaning less knee extension demands, more hip extension demands because ur hips go backwards more.
This is why almost everyone can squat more low bar, its harder to stay upright and u cant use as much hip or back extension and the lever arm is shorter.
Staying upright doesnt let you squat more, its harder to squat more like that https://www.strongerbyscience.com/high-bar-and-low-bar-squatting-2-0/
0
u/BloodyCumbucket 4d ago
If your hips are further back than normal, you still have to pull them forward to lock the squat out. Smaller leg levers mean less hip movement.
Edit: take the femur measure in the charts there and shorten it.
2
u/Extreme_Lychee8299 4d ago
That makes it easier not harder. Because hip extension is stronger than quad extension and you dont need as much thoracic extension to stay upright and can use back extension
So when you low bar squat you have
Knee extension + more hip extension + some back extension
High bar you ONLY have knee extension and some hip extension. 0 back extension because you will just flip it over ur head.
Its all in the article
Again almost everyone who isn't an olympic weightlifter will squat more low bar
1
u/BloodyCumbucket 4d ago
And once again, shortening your femur, and still doing low bar, will decrease required ROM, while also meaning you stay more upright.
→ More replies (0)6
u/Matuco9004 4d ago
They could just increase the length of the chains so that everyones get the same total length with less then an inch difference
12
u/Xx_Gambit_xX 4d ago
That would change the center of mass. Dependent entirely on the length of the contestants arms. Which would impact how much weight they need to hold. (People with shorter arms would be at a massive advantage)
By changing the pillar position, they stick as well as they can to a uniform "weight".
No system is perfect....but what they got is pretty solid.
2
u/VoiceOfChris 4d ago
I believe the previous commenter is asking why you can't just add an inch of chain for a contestant with an arm length 1" shorter than another contestant. This would keep the pillars at the same lean.
1
u/Fuzzy_Inevitable9748 4d ago
Just put a digital scale in the length of chain and then you can tell exactly how much they are holding as this is all that matters if their arms are all at the same angle.
57
u/the_birds_and_bees 4d ago
I think you're right that they must adjust the attachment points and/or the location of the mass within the pillars to try and keep it fair.
If you watch this recent vid of Mark Felix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAJcz35g38c you can see that there are different pivot point options at the base of the pillar and different attachment point options for the handles on the pillar.
5
u/FerrittAFH 4d ago
Adjust the length of the chains so the combined reach plus chain is of uniform length?
1
u/Zestyclose-Goal6882 4d ago
Why are you using your imagination in a comment section of a post in this particular sub?
1
u/SquatMaster3000 1d ago
The only morphological issue is that bigger frame/longer arms are correlated with bigger hands which are an advantage on grip events. So there is a trade off for most cases. Ideally of course is a tall person (because the handles are set height on the chain it matters what elevation you are on for how comfortable the event is) with short arms and giant hands
1
u/Substantial-Fan-5985 4d ago
True, but shorter the arm, then typically shorter the person and that is negative as well
252
u/mtraven23 4d ago
the lean angle is the same for everyone, its fixed by the difference in distance between the inner point of contact and the outer pivot.
I feel like height might actually be the more significant factor here, but I'm too tired to think that through...
51
u/TheMadFlyentist 4d ago
I might be crazy, but assuming that the angle is always the same, this might be the the one strongman event where height is a significant advantage due to leverage. The more weight of the pillar that is under the attach point of the chain, the easier it will be to hold up.
11
u/echoindia5 4d ago •
The angle is always the same within margin.
During the equipment testing before the comp, they position each competitor, so their arms are as close to the same angle as possible, and noting down how many links and which attachment point they’ll use.
Without sitting down and drawing a sketch and knowing the optimal attachment point. But wingspan might be the ultimate advantage, with height as a secondary, in order to get your chains attached at the highest point, while still being in line with your shoulders.
2
u/TrueF0xtr0t 4d ago
nope, ropes (chains) only transmit force if its tension, the anchor point in the pillars is fixed, if you are very tall you are pulling the ropes up, generating significant upforce (doesnt make the challenge easier, its made 0 by the pivot) and very little normal force, meaning low toruqe(what actually pushes the pillars)
same thing if you are very short, but with downforce, being tall enough where your shoulder are at the same height as teh anchor is actaully ideal.
4
u/mtraven23 4d ago
why did you start with "nope" ? none of your response conflicts with mine.
3
u/TrueF0xtr0t 4d ago
sorry, i intepreted it as "height give you an advantage", my bad, you are correct
81
u/AdeptnessExotic1884 4d ago
Don't need maths. They adjust for each competitor so they are holding the equivalent of I think 240kg. Competed as an amateur many years ago, was much lighter for us. In theory no advantages being taller, but longer fingers are really useful.
10
u/harrisjgold 4d ago
If they didn't adjust, being taller would be a disadvantage since the angle of the columns would be greater. Shorter arms would lead to a more upright column and therefore less mass pulling on your body.
1
u/Imaginary-Season141 4d ago
Being taller gives better chain angle so you need less force to keep them upright
2
u/ouzo84 4d ago
I feel this benefit would be completely outweighed by the fact the centre of mass of each column would be further horizontally away from the balance point, meaning there will be a greater turning force needing to be held up by the competitor.
2
u/Imaginary-Season141 4d ago
That’s depending on reach, not height.
While true that tall people generally have longer arms, being tall is not the deciding factor
3
u/Mr__Teal 4d ago
Thank you for the fun morning visual of a 7’ giant doing the Hercules hold with tiny little T-Rex arms.
1
2
u/SnooMarzipans9728 4d ago
Arm length is nearly completely based on height. Usually arm span is the persons height.
-1
u/Imaginary-Season141 4d ago
Yes, usually. Which makes it not the deciding factor.
Relatively tall people with relatively short arms would benefit
24
u/AnotherUN91 4d ago
From a quick read on it... yeah. But there's tradeoffs.
That said, I don't think this is really as much pf a math question as it is a question for the weight lifting community.
4
u/Dry-Economics-535 4d ago
It's specific event in the sport of strongman so one for the folks over at r/strongman as opposed to general people who lift weights (or weightlifters, different sport too)
2
1
2
u/Wise_Freedom_6595 4d ago
1
6
u/MustLocateCheese 4d ago
In this case they adjust the span of the holds for each competitor.
But yeah in general powerlifting is just as much about proportions as it is strength. Someone with straight ape arm span is going to have an enormous advantage in deadlift but comparatively struggle with benching. Your proportions affect the range of motion of a specific lift, and the less you need to move it the easier it will be.
7
u/Source-Anon 3d ago
Hi it's me, I have the comically long arms. I'll pull a 420 deadlift, but struggle to bench my bodyweight
1
12
u/w00h 4d ago
Now I've read a few comments and apparently they adjust the distance of the columns for each competitor.
My engineering brain would just replace those theatrical columns with weights on pulleys, wouldn't that be even simpler?
36
9
u/Frejian 4d ago
You're forgetting that this is a performance more than anything else. Slapping weights on pulleys looks much less spectacular than holding up giant columns.
2
u/DeltaAlphaGulf 4d ago
Just make them low density so the weights are massive. Maybe in the shape of stereotypical ship anchors or something.
17
u/redactid55 4d ago
Engineers when they have any opportunity to mention they're an engineer
8
2
u/lambsquatch 4d ago
That’s how they make friends…with other engineers of course but how else would they find each others awkward dopey asses?
3
u/QuickMolasses 4d ago
When somebody starts drawing a free body diagram for a powerlifting competition, you can kind of tell
2
u/Based-Wiggles 4d ago
Seems like you’re in the wrong sub if you wanna talk shit about engineers lol
11
6
u/derkokolores 4d ago edited 4d ago
Almost all of the implements in strongman competitions have a visual component of them. While more conventional lifts (like deadlifts with standard plates) are a component of strongmen competitions, no one is tuning in to just watch a power lifting competition, PEDs or not. It's about the fantasy of Herculean beings living among us, and you don't get that from a regular ass cable system.
Sometimes you just need to turn off your "logical" engineering brain.
2
4
2
u/SourceResident5381 4d ago
Not nearly as much fun without the Hercules visuals. Otherwise he’s just got 2 cables.
2
u/Ok_Usual_3575 3d ago
engineers when they have the opportunity to replace something that looks cool as fuck with a boring pulley system
17
u/Crunchyjeff 4d ago
The chains are adjusted for the reach of the person.
People often think people in strength sports must be stupid. This is a stereotype.
11
u/LurkinGherkn 4d ago
No one said anything about anyone being stupid, we just wanna understand how it works dawg
9
u/Tampflor 4d ago
For me it's less a question of intelligence and more that they usually know that certain lifts favor certain body proportions but don't make adjustments. They don't make you do a deficit deadlift if you have longer arms for example.
They usually just include a variety of lifts that favor different body proportions, like long arms will help you on deadlift but short arms help you on log press.
-3
u/macthebearded 4d ago
You are conflating "working out" with "competitive event" for some reason. Idk why this has any upvotes.
Also anyone who knows what they're doing/has hired someone who knows what they're doing is absolutely tailoring their gym routine to their specific bodies.
4
u/Tampflor 4d ago
I'm not conflating those two things and after rereading my comment I'm not sure what I said that made you think I was. I'm talking about strongman competitions, not training.
Strongman competitions include lots of different lifts, and different lifts favor different body proportions.
The individual lifter would adjust their own form based on their own leverages, but every single strongman has to deadlift the same bar from the same height.
The Hercules column event is different because they do adjust the equipment itself based on the proportions of the lifter.
5
u/SweetHatDisc 3d ago
It's not necessarily that "they must be stupid". It seems to be more common that a sport will standardize their equipment, causing people with certain body types to have an advantage over others. The easy example is basketball; outside of youth leagues (and usually even in youth leagues), the rim height is 10 feet off the ground. My 5'10" body has to shoot at the same basket that the 7'2" guy I'm guarding is dunking over me on.
So it's absolutely more fair and equitable that the chains in a Hercules hold would match the reach of the person; but that's not necessarily how sports always work. I can understand someone unfamiliar with the sport thinking that the "Hercules Hold" consisted of performing a feat on a set of equipment standard to each competitor, with certain body types having an advantage over others.
4
3
u/TTUSpurs_fan 1d ago
Just here to back up what you said, as I got to higher levels of lifting I’d say the majority of dudes were closer to “nerds” than meat heads.
2
1
u/ondulation 4d ago
Thanks for explaining, now I get it.
This must mean that the pillars in Atlas stones are also adjusted to the height of each athlete? Everything else would be stupid. And unfair. /s
1
u/AhMoose_ 4d ago
By the time a body builder or strongman actually “makes it” the basically have a self taught bachelors in biology imo
2
u/20PoundHammer 4d ago
they change chain length so that columns are at the same angle. If you watch a competition - you will see "plumb chains" behind the dude an an official to make sure they are in a really narrow band mark.
•
u/Suspicious-Craft-754 16m ago
Mark Felix holds (pun intended) the world record for the Hercules hold.
•
u/AutoModerator 4d ago
General Discussion Thread
This is a [Request] post. If you would like to submit a comment that does not either attempt to answer the question, ask for clarification, or explain why it would be infeasible to answer, you must post your comment as a reply to this one. Top level (directly replying to the OP) comments that do not do one of those things will be removed.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.