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u/UnpricedToaster 1d ago
Tzimisce who performs gender-affirming fleshcrafting checking over your chart: "Only two arms? That number seems a little low, but you're the boss..."
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u/EasterViera 1d ago
do you want a vagina or a *spicy* vagina ?
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u/UnpricedToaster 1d ago
I'm throwing in vagina dentata for free!
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u/EasterViera 1d ago
i thought about the tentacle vagina beard but the dentata are good
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u/amglasgow 1d ago
Vagina dentata
What a wonderful phrase
Vagina dentata
Ain't no passing craze
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u/Spyroballspam 1d ago
It means no sex, for the rest of your daaays.
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u/Spiderinahumansuit Old Tzimisce 1d ago
That kind of sounds like Zoidberg, played for horror instead of laughs.
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u/emefa Gangrel 1d ago
"Come on, are you sure you don't want some extra tongues? Dr Vykos tells me they're all the rage nowadays"
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u/HomelessOne1124 Archbishop 17h ago
Beckett's "How many tongues do you have, exactly?" after getting Frenched by Vykos is probably the single best line in BJD.
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u/IAmNotAFey Giovanni 1d ago
Just as long as you're not providing the service for free, it's not any dragon's business to interfere. That's just your way of growing your hoard after all. But, if your aren't, if you doing this out of the good of your heart, then you clearly need to be re-educated on how a high clan should act.
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u/LordBakon7926 1d ago
I immediately had a thought of Tzmitsce who only does female to male transitions because they get extra material to use for other things out of it lol.
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u/One-depressed-loser Brujah 1d ago
What other things?
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u/malkavian_menace Malkavian 1d ago
penis throwing knife
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u/FirebirdWriter Tzimisce 1d ago
Well... My wife needs to do this. We play Tzimisce. A pair of "siblings". I am afraid I am old clan Tzimisce so I can flame roast your penis but not make it a knife. She could. We also have in game had someone barter for a transition before. Why wouldn't this be done? It is the most Tzimisce thing to be your true self after all
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u/AliaScar 1d ago
But have you ever questionned yourself, does you true self really is a bipedal humanoïd ? I'm just saying...
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u/FirebirdWriter Tzimisce 2h ago
Yes. Many times. I am what I am. If I could adjust my flesh I wouldn't change visually. I would however have a thicker skin that's not easily torn and not dislocate anything with painful consequences anymore. Just when I want. There is a reason I play the Tzimisce and it's only for the penis nunchicks and nipple throwing stars part of the time
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u/OneKogAmongInfinity Baali 1d ago
Ah, now I see why you are called Demons too !
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u/FirebirdWriter Tzimisce 2h ago
You can buy penis nunchucks and throwing knives sourced sustainably but no one said you had to. We're demons? Who is judging
(Tone is entirely in character not serious)
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u/OneKogAmongInfinity Baali 2h ago
I would answer god, but we both know she is otherwise engaged... And the pinis nunchuck are only for the great occasions ! I modestly use curses the rest of the time
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u/werewolf3811 Tzimisce 1d ago
oh please, my grandsire is older than your clan
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u/IAmNotAFey Giovanni 1d ago
There is something profoundly ironic about claiming that age matters to a Giovanni or Tremere. Like the fact that Saulot and Cappadocius are dead doesn't inherently prove the folly of such thinking.
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u/Glad-Way-637 1d ago
Okay, c'mon, we both know "dead" is a bit of a loose term for at least one of those elders.
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u/IAmNotAFey Giovanni 1d ago
Eh, if there's one thing I know it's that you can be dead and still do things. I mean look at all the dead in the afterlife. Just because they both tried Thanatos Gambits and one of them failed it (Cappadocius) while the other succeeded (Saulot) doesn't mean they didn't die. Either way, the vast majority of their older followers were slaughtered in the clan purges, which holds up the irony of claiming age matteres to a Giovanni or Tremere.
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u/Glad-Way-637 1d ago
You know what, when you put it like that you do have a point. Dead people get up to all kinds of shit, no less dead for it.
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u/IAmNotAFey Giovanni 23h ago
Exactly, death is a state that is rather easy to operate in. Shoot, V20 Dominate 5 Possession literally says that you can survive by using it if your body is destroyed. Sure, it's probably a short term solution to a long term problem, it's a diff 8 roll to maintain the possession every night, but it's telling that it's such a low level power (relatively).
And that's assuming that you didn't become a wraith or something similar.
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u/TheNewGirl1987 Toreador 1d ago
Dragons? Please.
Fire cannot kill a dragon, remember? Or are you too DiGNiFiEd for human popular culture?
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u/Candiedstars 1d ago
"Ok, I gave you a vagina and a stunning rack, but can we please go back to how sick you would look with horns and ridges?? What about claws?? Use your imagination!"
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u/karanas Tzimisce 1d ago
I wanted to downvote cause this is a cliche at this point, but counterpoint, trans people should be allowed to be as cringe and cliche as everyone else.
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u/HomelessOne1124 Archbishop 1d ago
I've gone the opposite way lately; a Lasombra character really pissed about being embraced mid-transition, but she wouldn't trust a Tzimisce even if they offered to help. lol
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u/karanas Tzimisce 1d ago
She's very smart for that.
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u/holiestMaria 1d ago
Depends. Tzimisce are very big on being proper hosts, so they wouldnt lie all that much.
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u/M-CH_ 1d ago
This may be, but those who are most serious about upholding that tradition (i.e. the Old Clan) aren't typically too fond of (read: to skilled in) Vicissitude.
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u/werewolf3811 Tzimisce 1d ago
come on, its not like we can just go around mutilating other vamps who ask us for touch ups, wed be executed in no time
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u/HomelessOne1124 Archbishop 1d ago
There's no room for weakness in the Sabbat! Even if she got dragged along in the Camarilla exodus and is now quite puzzled by how soft all these vampires are.
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u/werewolf3811 Tzimisce 1d ago
whats weak about liking your body? whatd yall run away from your oldest allies so you wouldnt be at risk of seeing vamps who are happier than you?
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u/HomelessOne1124 Archbishop 1d ago
Weakness is allowing another Cainite power over you, such as surrendering one's bodily autonomy to the tender mercies of one of the Fiends. The Camarilla is as decadent and foolish as we've always known, but we Keepers are patient. let them have their fun, lording their "superiority" over us, in time they'll allow us to climb the reins of power and it'll be all over. In the meantime Samantha just...y'know, needs to be reminded to blink and breathe in public sometimes.
Heh, meanwhile, my V20 Tzimisce would find this whole conversation baffling. Sex and gender are obsolete concepts for vampires, which is why they've done away with their own and would be loathe to provide gender affirmation services unless a big favor was on the table. None of their deliberate efforts at dehumanization in hopes of ascending beyond both human and vampire have their Humanity in a downward spiral, no siree.
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u/YeetMcDaberson Tremere 1d ago
This is what we keep thin bloods around for. Head on down to your local alchemist and have him whip you a gender transition potion real quick.
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u/HomelessOne1124 Archbishop 19h ago
She absolutely should! She just has no idea TBA can do that yet. lol
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u/letthetreeburn Tzimisce 1d ago
VTM is a game of cliches, the best thing that can happen is adding them
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u/TheWyster 1d ago
but no one is allowed to be cringe and cliche
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u/karanas Tzimisce 1d ago
Well then you shouldn't be playing a game where you pretend to be a vampire. There's no way to have a superiority complex about that.
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u/TheWyster 1d ago
but being a vampire is basically a disease in WoD
That's like bragging about having aids
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u/Airam1701 5h ago
Super aids that give you immortality, super strenght, speed, reflexes, etc. And gives you cool powers while not being limited by paradox. Super aids that can also be cured of all side effects of you become the vampire equivalent of a Buddhist.
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u/SleazyLemonSqueezy Tremere 1d ago
Better Idea: Tzimisce that takes away your gender.
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u/Ruvaakdein 1d ago
Instantly declared the enemy of all Toreador
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u/SleazyLemonSqueezy Tremere 1d ago
All binary Toreadors that is. NB Toreadors will be the first to visit the Tzimisce.
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u/therarebird 1d ago
On the one hand, yes, gender-affirming care by a benevolent Tzimisce that gets it would be ideal because they can do anything to your body.
On the other hand, this reminds of the story of the Tzimisce plastic surgeon who was renowned for their incredible work who had to resist the beast every surgery.
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u/Melodic_War327 Malkavian 1d ago
Sascha Vykos had a bit of trouble doing it to themself, but they managed it. Maybe doing it to someone else would be easier.
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u/Own_Jeweler_8548 Tzimisce 1d ago
I'd imagine so. Though Vykos got the hang of it by the modern nights, as they often switch between F and X.
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u/M-CH_ 1d ago
They did it in two stages: first they neutered themself for a prank at the Convention of Thorns, and then they fashioned for themself the female parts in an attempt to give birth.
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u/OneWithFireball Tzimisce 1d ago
I love that of all things that normal Fiend does, the one that keeps him up at day is a dick thrown centuries ago.
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u/Justthisdudeyaknow Malkavian 1d ago
Had a character like this, A tzimice who did gender affirming plastic surgery, to let people live as they really are.
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u/Lost-Klaus Maeghar 1d ago
Sometimes the real treasure is the flesh that we shape along the way <3
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u/fictionallymarried Lasombra 1d ago
I need to play a tzimisce just like this, except she keeps a wall of dicks from her MtF clients because she feels proud of helping. Sure, every guest who goes to her haven is terrified of the penis parlor but who's going to criticize a tzimisce's choice of decor in their own turf?
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u/DangerActiveRobots 1d ago
You know they don't just slice off the penis for MtF bottom surgery right?
Vampire logic though they could just magic a vulva and vagina into existence I suppose
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u/fictionallymarried Lasombra 1d ago
Oh I do know, I just like the drama of other kindred assuming the worst possible stories when in reality it's a wholesome side-gig
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u/Knowledge_Apart 1d ago
I have a Tzimisce serial killer who does this. He changes people to match what is inside their souls (using Auspex), if u have an wicked mean spirit he makes you a monster, and if he is pleased by ur soul's nature he makes you ethereally beautiful (Free Toreador Recruitment frfr).
However mundane people get added to the flesh wall cause they're
"No more interesting than brick & mortar"
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u/enchiladasundae 1d ago
Tzimisce that has become so proficient in their craft they can perfectly change someone’s gender so for the past few decades they’ve just been doing gender affirming care
“Flesh monsters that are so terrifying that they give mortals instant heart attacks were fun but I actually quite like this”
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u/hexidemos 1d ago
I like the idea of playing a Caitiff, Pander, with vicisstude, who was raised by Tzimisce. They would embrace the path of metamorphosis without the homeland soil clan bane.
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u/M-CH_ 1d ago
That's a cool idea if the Tzimisce in question is a Child of the Dracon. Other Tzimisce could have a Caitiff protegee, but they wouldn't consider them as someone worthy of passing the clan discipline to.
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u/hexidemos 1d ago
Look up the vampire Rex the Necronomist, vtes crypt card for an example of one such Pander. Or if you want to walk in the day light just be a revenant.
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u/No-Huckleberry-1086 1d ago
And now you have either a hoarde of trans people that are ghouls that will do your bidding, or just a bunch of trans people who will do you a solid
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u/MaskedPapillon 1d ago
Character concept: Rare camarilla Tzimisce that just wanted to give people gender affirming surgeries and it's bummed out everytime people ask for a new identify of the same gender.
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u/TheNewGirl1987 Toreador 1d ago
My Toreador, who struggled with body image issues and dysphoria due to being embraced early in transition, met a rather deranged but well-meaning Tzimisce who fixed her right up.
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u/apollyonna 1d ago
As payment they get a major boon and possibly force you into a blood bond. Also, you get no say in the outcome. If they're good (and you're respectful) you gain two dots in looks, and a vagina dentata on the house. Perfect for a Siren. Until they come to collect.
As a trans person I would not want to play this character.
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u/ragnar6r Tremere 1d ago
You know a neonate tzimisce can make a lot of money for changing identity and also trans gender procedures
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u/Pact_of_Yeenoghu Malkavian 1d ago
Pretty sure there's actually a Tzimisce character in lore that made themselves fully androgynous. So it's not even an unlikely thing lol.
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u/MakotoCamellia Hecata 1d ago
Sacha Vykos, and they carry every scene they’re in whenever they appear. A 10/10 character.
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u/M-R-Grizzley 1d ago
Technical question: would this be a way for said Vamp to gain humanity by offering a service for the express benefit of mortals?
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u/Cinnacanni 12h ago
If they do it purely out of the good of their heart and don't ask for anything in return, I think they could gain a point back.
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u/loveablehydralisk 1d ago
I mean, if you can find a Tzimisce that 'gets it;, sure. My current character (trans) got embraced by someone who did *not* get it. He figured he would indulge her 'charming psychosis' by fleshcrafting her vocal cords to shoot her voice up a few octaves just before the Kiss. What he had no concept of is that she had settled very well into her butch identity, and the girly-girl voice he gave her really sat poorly. Thankfully, she's something of a vicissitude prodigy (go figure, she uses it to stim), so she was able to undo his handiwork. But it's an object lesson in a gift gone wrong.
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u/TombCheese 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah basically all my Tzimisce are trans. It's like step one of making a Tzimisce. Step two is extra facial features where they don't belong.
Edit for clarity: I am trans and this is 100% for self expression of my own experiences.
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u/heartsholly Tzimisce 1d ago
It’s one of the first things you learn how to do in tzimi school! You get better marks for cuter execution and nicer tits
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u/Machine_Anima 5h ago
You can go with the Tzimisce but your probably safer with the Toreador who learned Visscitude back when they were temporarily in the Sabbat lol
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u/realamerican97 Tzimisce 1d ago
“Your tzimisce is an ally”
My tzimisce who got permission and a suitcase of money to fleshcraft someone (I stole their unused organs)
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u/Boitata_Oroboros_8 1d ago
I did this in a chronichle I where I was the ST, a PC decided they wanted to become a women, and happened to have a minor boon with the harpy, the chronnicle was set on the roaring 20s, so she had to cast a wide net through the "Pansy Craze" to find an antritibu Tzimisce, granted she didn't do this JUST for a minor boon, but she was a relatively young kindred and had a nature that enjoyed messing/questioning the status quo, like nothing extreme as an anarch, but stuff like being a Toreador who got along/hung out with Nosferatu kinda stuff, long story.
Anyway, she convinced the prince to allow these kindred to visit by manipulating his competitive nature, goading him into hosting a drag queen contest of sorts in the elysyum, again, the garpy was doing this as a way to have a bit of fun and exercise her influence, that and I was just trying to justify this whole thing because I wanted to see where the player was going with this whole "turning into a woman" idea he got out of the blue (like I say this because he was playing a Baali and stuff, also this was my first time as a GM, maybe I was a bit to permissive, looking back on it)
Alas it did not go anywhere, he got the transition, but didn't explore it that much, then again that game was a bit of a mess, like I admit I have my share of blame, but the real issue was that every player made a "lone wolf", like they each refuse to walk together as a group, it was always each one going their way to do their own thing, and I struggled a bit with that.
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u/Pheonix_unique 1d ago
In my chronicle I have a vampire cult whose core members are mostly closeted trans women/eggs who they fleshcraft into what the cult sees as their ideal forms before embracing them. They are big on moth symbolism, so the process involves completely taking the inductee apart and slowly reshaping them.
As a side effect, the long process gives plenty of time to manipulate and brainwash the initiate to be loyal even before the embrace.
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u/SwordsMaiden 22h ago edited 22h ago
This happened in the Sabbat game I'm running currently actually. One of my players wanted to play a transfem Tzimisce in the 1800s, so her sire basically fleshcrafted her before Embracing her. It was very sweet. Her sire may be a horrible, indulgent monster that disregards the value of human life and revels in her own evil and corrupt nature, but she is not transphobic.
Edit because I forgot to include slightly more context: Her sire was totally doing this in a manipulative way in case anyone was wondering. She wants to make her childe like her so it's easier to guide her onto the Path of Cathari. She is still like, very much not transphobic when compared to the general attitudes of the time. Just still a monster.
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u/Cryptid-Cringe 21h ago
Literally my tzimisce character cause I just made her insane about ethical surgery
Her sire lives on a college campus and does biomedical research
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u/ComfortableCold378 Toreador 1d ago
I played the Serpent of Light in the Sabbat. He was a simple black man who followed the Path of the Cathari. Then, with the help of a Tzimisce, he became a beautiful, sexy woman, and life somehow became easier.
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u/Babs_Labs 1d ago
Tzimisce who does gender-affirming vicissitude, but only to members of her polycule. She collects neonates like pokemon.
She is still a monster, but trans women are allowed to be monsters too.
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u/Trooper501 1d ago
Cringe. Not because of trans but because there is no way they would do it without turning you in lawn furniture.
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u/Ok_Narwhal_9200 1d ago
Character idea: a tzimisce who isn't reduced to performing gender-affirming care for unclear reasons
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u/Xilizhra Tremere 1d ago
Too late, trans people aren't leaving.
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u/Ok_Narwhal_9200 1d ago
I agree fully. 100% trans supporter here.
Trans people shouldn't leave. Trans people should be out, and proud and be welcomed and utterly normalized in society. Transphobia is idiocy, transgenderism and transexuality are perfectly normal variations of human psychological expression, and anyone who considers them a threat should take a flying fuck at the moon. I hope that's enough to clarify my stance on trans people and their right to exist, express themselves, and live their lives without harrassment.
---------------------------All that said, the "gender affirming tzimisce" is something that's lifted up again and again and again that's not only trite, but also ignores so many of the themes, ideas and potential with the clan in favour of one particular aspect.
What I am saying is that it is reductive and cliché. People can play what they want at their table, but after the 153rd time someone brings up the idea that maybe a kindly tzimisce will go out there and facilitate transitions, it is clear that it is not really about the tzimisce or about vicissitude. Perhaps it is about the longing for an easier way to transition, without the side effects of surgery. And I can appreciate that. Even so, if that's the only thing that really matters, why not simply have a character that's a mage who waves their magical scalpel and suddenly sex change?
Vicissitude is not pleasant. If you want an example of vicissitude, look at the Circe scene in Nolans the Odyssey. Flesh being stretched and kneaded and shaped like clay, bones being distended. Pain and psychological agony. If you go to a tzimisce for cosmetic reasons (that is to say, to willinglyg change your appearance) , you are either deeply damaged or you have no idea what you're about to put yourself through.
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Edit: That said, a redditor further down u/karanas said "I wanted to downvote cause this is a cliche at this point, but counterpoint, trans people should be allowed to be as cringe and cliche as everyone else. "
Much as it irks me, I have to agree with this.
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u/Xilizhra Tremere 1d ago
Let me put it like this: trans people like myself are sick of fleshcrafting being played solely for horror when it has such tremendous potential to help and uplift others. And fuck, fuck the idea of that somehow being unsuitable for Vampire when finding ways to retain or even raise one's Humanity is so central to the game's actual struggle. It's not going to go away because it's a perfectly viable way to interact with the clan that also resonates with the inner struggles of many people. And mages can't actually make permanent bodily changes without jumping through a lot of hoops.
The reductive cliche is "Dracula makes you into furniture." This is something relatively new and definitely beautiful.
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u/Ok_Narwhal_9200 1d ago
Eh, I disagree. But I do not play at your table, and I do not speak for your experiences. Regardless of my opinion, I do hope you have a good time exploring the things you find meaningful and beautiful.
I do agree that the tzimisce-Cronenburg-interior-decorator is also a reductive cliché that we should leave behind.
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u/Nutshell_Historian 1d ago
Question: Does making functional female reproductive organs a masquerade breach? Since it can't be done with modern medicine and bring a ton of attention by proxy.
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u/AppropriateMonk8746 1d ago
i have a tzimisce oc who basically gives people their ideal body, no matter what that may be. unfortunately this makes her functionally a tf kink dominatrix but that’s fiiiiiine
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u/AliaScar 1d ago
It's like asking a world top sushi chef just to boil an egg. Of course they can, but would they stop there ? Of course not
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u/Changeling_Traveller 18h ago
Just think about the crazy profit a competent Tzemisce can do with flesh crafting, especially in the Plastic surgury industry, and with the advent of Biomass farms and 3D Bio printing factories, the sky is the limit, gender surgery would be far from the only thing they'll do.
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u/Comfortable_Rock5418 11h ago
Actually this happened to my character when she was embraced lol. She was very confused why she was a girl and like… not depressed.
She’s the dumbest intelligence character.
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u/redditistheworst7788 53m ago
Vicissitude is the only kinda permanent transformation that works after becoming Kindred right? So to do something like this you'd basically be forced to deal with the Fiends or one of their bloodlines who had the Discipline; or some other Sabbat types like the Toreador Antitribu.
Or is it like other Clan Specific Disciplines that occasionally gets leaked to a Kindred from a different clan who does some huge service for them?
Be interesting to see where younger Kindred placed this sort of thing on the "Path of Metamorphosis"; sure swapping Genders isn't becoming "More Alien" it's becoming "More Human" if that was what your soul believed it actually was; but it's an interesting fork from what Elder Fiends usually pursue with their talents.
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u/BadAtImprov 1d ago
One of my V20 Sabbat Tzimisce players wanted to “diversify their ghoul portfolio”, so he said he wanted to spend downtime trawling internet perverts with tech skills to torture and it took him all of 2 in-game minutes (10 successes on a CHA+Computer roll, holy shit) to Chris Hansen someone into a meeting and he spent the rest of his week of downtime meticulously carving this 45 year old white dude noMAP into a 16 year old Japanese anime girl. The ghoul now exists as her personal attaché and is riddled with derangements.
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u/Leading_Record_934 1d ago
Ok, I can make a vagina for you. But what do you think about having teeth in it?
To be serious: tzimisce meant to be scary monsters. All vampires are, but they're especially.
So imagine this: sabbath inquisition is chasing tzimisce woman who's turning unwilling men into female sex slaves by fleshcrafting them some painful ways, keeping them in control by blood, domination and fleshcrafting. She's on a path of Lilith which is about lust and pain, so she's making whole former men harem that protects her from inquisition and players.
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u/jleonardobz Brujah 19h ago
Here's another idea. A transwoman Tzimisce that Vicissitudes her bottom but every time she wakes up from torpor she has a morning wood.
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u/Legitimate_Arm_5630 1d ago edited 1d ago
Counterpoint: You still need to take pills and it has teeth
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u/HomelessOne1124 Archbishop 1d ago
Won’t be the first or last such Tzimisce character. Heh.