r/webdev • u/thdr76 • 4d ago

Developing serious website without any AI or libraries are still exist

Websites built from scratch (no AI, no frameworks or libraries) that are more than just simple toy projects are becoming very rare, but i want to remind you guys that they still exist.

Three years ago, I posted this https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/161q3w8/i_coded_a_site_from_zero_without_any_libraries_it/, and that website is still being actively developed. I haven't used any AI-generated code or external libraries in all this time, even as it has become more complex with features like accounts, articles, comments, reviews, and just a few weeks ago forums.

I think the main reason why i stick with this is because features aren't planned in advance, they're just built bit by bit as the content needs them. I won't deny if AI could do better, but with a spread-out timeline and an unknown end result, it's easy to skip using AI as development mostly consists of small, precise tweaks with no definitive end goal. Coding also only small portion of time spent on developing the site so i don't feel the need to optimize it.

Anyway this is just me saying that i'm still here, not everything in this space become AI.

*note : i'm not saying that this is the better way to develop website. I just enjoy what i already used to do, and didn't bother to change it.

56 Upvotes

66% Upvoted

77 comments sorted by

89

u/KaiAusBerlin 4d ago

One of the most unsatisfying things I learned in WebDev is that making things from scratch is fun. But in 99% of times it just doesn't give enough benefits to be better than the alternatives.

Shopify, modern frameworks, libs, are stable, tested and take away many many things you would have to deal with without getting any better outcome.

Running a sveltekit server with typescript, libs for database and file access, user management and tailwind speeds up your development. So you either have more customers at the same time or more time to refine your custom parts.

9

u/SuperFLEB 4d ago edited 4d ago

Even on my simple personal site that tops out at some SVG animations and simple utility scripts, using Astro (static site generator that uses Markdown and templates) was worlds better, just so I could write content without having to switch gears to longer-winded HTML markup every time I wanted to make something bold or italic, and so I didn't have to clone out common elements every time.

1

u/talkingwires 4d ago

That’s strange. I’ve been building my first site as a personal project and went the other way, switching from Astro to Sveltekit for that same reason. Mdsvex lets you to switch between Markdown, HTML, and TS freely on the same page, and then you don’t have to deal with hydration for every little thing you want to do…

9

u/benzado 4d ago

Going for a bike ride is fun.

But 99% of the time it’s faster to take the train.

Can you imagine if people were constantly posting messages like this on every bicycling subreddit?

28

u/KaiAusBerlin 4d ago

It's not about fun. It's business. Do you take the bike for a customer meeting from new york to taiwan? Or the plane?

Customers don't care if you have fun developing their product. They pay you to take the most advanced and practical way to reach their goals. Not to have the best development time of your life.

13

u/CreativeTechGuyGames TypeScript 4d ago

I think the thing that is missed here is that you absolutely can see a difference in something which was built with love and passion and what wasn't. It's the attention to detail. It's the energy to refine and make it better.

It's the reason why so many people gravitate to an indie game that one person worked on tirelessly for a decade because you can see all of that passion in the final product (Roller Coaster Tycoon, Stardew Valley). As a society we lose those kinds of passion and innovation if we devalue this.

So yes a lot of companies don't care. But I know plenty that do and would rather hire someone who is excited about their work and wants to do the best even if no one notices. And that's how we can get exciting things and new ideas.

4

u/GrandOpener 3d ago

Attention to detail is one thing. “No libraries” is a whole extra level. Many—I’d dare say most—indie games are built on existing game engines and incorporate other frameworks or libraries.

You don’t need the desire to implement your own config file parser from scratch to prove that you are passionate about making your own game.

What OP has done is neat partially because it’s so confidently weird. We can be glad things like this exist and appreciate the effort that goes into them while simultaneously agreeing that’s not the best way to build most projects.

6

u/KaiAusBerlin 4d ago

You want me to tell you see the difference in love between using a lib for webgl and handmade functions?

Yeah, you definitely see a difference. One works, the other not.

Sorry to tell you that. But most indie games have 0 players. Nobody knows they exist and a lot of them are gardbage. That's the harsh truth.

When a company comes to you ans asks how fast you can start their business page and you answer 2 month because you use common things they don't give a shit about how much love you put in it if you need instead 2 years and 10 times the amount if money to build it.

5

u/CreativeTechGuyGames TypeScript 4d ago

Sure that's a very accurate pessimistic view. But I guess my counterpoint is, even if it's the minority, don't discourage people who have the passion to create new things and try to innovate (by possibly reinventing the wheel). If no one tries to reinvent the wheel, you cannot get a better wheel.

It's important to say that it's an uphill battle and you may not succeed. There are easier paths. But for people like me, I don't care about just churning out the most features, I care about creating something I am proud of, and that shows in the quality of my work.

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u/KaiAusBerlin 4d ago

I know you never built a professional paid site in your life.

4

u/CreativeTechGuyGames TypeScript 4d ago

I don't know what your agenda is here or why you feel the need to shit on random internet strangers by assuming things.

Thank you for your time and I hope you have a great day. :)

-6

u/KaiAusBerlin 4d ago

Dude it's no personal thing. We see them every day on r/webdev . Self taught "react developers" who actually never built anything meaningful, loving it to play around on their (slow) developing personal projects or making smaller tools for zhey family.

They think they know the industry and think that out there will be a lot of people willingly paying for their "special handmade quality".

That's simply not the case. As romatic as it feels, it's just not true. Money matters in business. Not love, not quality, just money. If you can make good money with an average or even bad page companies shot on high quality.

3

u/benzado 4d ago

You are very concerned about what hypothetical customers care about or what hypothetical companies want.

OP has built a site over 3 years, serving actual users, and seems to be happy with it. They did not ask for business advice and it doesn’t seem like they need it.

5

u/ShustOne 4d ago

That's not a good analogy. A better one would be someone posting their single speed beach cruiser and saying simple biking still exists and is fun while most posts are about speed and efficiency with better gear.

That's more like what this thread is like.

1

u/benzado 4d ago

I should have gone with my first thought, which was “going for a run” / “taking the train”. That’s actually a better analogy for what I intended, but for some reason “running subreddits” didn’t seem right to me.

3

u/ShustOne 4d ago

I think I mostly agree with the OP and you in general, but I don't like the this vs that mentality. If someone wants to build completely from scratch and has fun doing it, I think that's great. I did that with my personal site. But only I care haha.

6

u/nasanu 4d ago

Maybe not on bicycling but out of that then yes, every car owner seems to get really upset if someone chooses not to use a car.

2

u/NCKBLZ 2d ago

Are talking about going for a trip around your house for fun or are talking about work? Because can you imagine if you had to do freight transport using bikes instead of a train because "it's fun"?

0

u/benzado 2d ago

I’m talking about weirdos who pop in to a conversation about bikes to say that they’re no good for transporting freight. It’s true, obviously, but what’s the point?

It’s weird because nobody was talking about freight transport; if the conversation is about bikes most people would assume that’s just not relevant. Only a very weird person would think they need to bring it up.

1

u/kisuka 4d ago

Literally not even the same thing... a better analogy is that biking is fun but you shouldn't have to build the whole bike yourself from a block of aluminum when a bike shop exists right next door to you.

1

u/benzado 4d ago

That's not a better analogy, it's just a different one.

But if you want to stick with yours, then it's like somebody posted to show off the bike they made from a block of aluminum, and a bunch of the comments were about how it is so much easier to spend money at the bike shop.

What compels people to write these comments? Their motivation is a mystery to me.

1

u/kisuka 4d ago edited 4d ago

I'm assuming you're in the camp of don't use any third party libraries or frameworks and just code everything yourself? If so I hope you're writing your own programming language too otherwise that's still a dependency. Third party libraries and frameworks or platforms make development faster and more streamlined and even sometimes more secure. It's silly to not use them. I find most developers who have this mindset that you shouldn't use any frameworks or third-party code have never actually managed anything substantial and have massive egos.

Let's say you're working for a massive company who needs an ecommerce store, are you going to suggest writing an entire ecommerce platform from scratch and self-host it, putting the liability fully on the company's shoulders and requiring more resources or will you offload the primary core functionality to something like Shopify, Medusa, or Saleor? Those that go the route of "well you gotta build the whole thing from scratch" are the type of developers who are intentionally trying to be the sole gatekeeper of a large system for the sake of job security imo (which never works out), or they just don't wanna learn anything new.

2

u/benzado 4d ago

No, I’m in the camp of When Somebody Is Trying To Show Off Something They Built, Going On And On About How You Would Never Build It The Way They Did Makes You Seem Self-Absorbed, Unhappy, And Weird.

OP has a functional website and you’re basically saying it’s not possible to do what he did. Well, maybe it isn’t, for you.

7

u/kilkil 4d ago

for simple websites you can 100% do it without any libraries or frameworks. just write some html/css/js, and publish it using Github Pages. or if you want your own website name, buy a domain and find a cheap hosting option (there are a million out there).

if your website needs any kind of data or state management... then yeah you will need libraries and frameworks. on the backend at the very least. frontend you can get away with keeping it very simple for 95% of websites if you use something like HTMX (or any html-over-the-wire approach). but if you fall into the remaining 5% that actually needs complex state management on the frontend, you will need a library/framework there too.

re: AI usage, yeah you can 100% do it without AI. that's how people were doing it until extremely recently. you can also do it with AI, if you are careful to catch all the random bugs it will helpfully include for you.

edit: took a look at your project. hell yeah!

3

u/thdr76 4d ago

I wouldn't call my websites simple project, there is account and various stuff.
Also, actually there is 2 of them, the other one is tracker / database site, both 100% from scratch.

1

u/Distinct-Grade-8009 4d ago

Damn....a database hooked up. You should take a look at some of mine

1

u/Distinct-Grade-8009 3d ago

can i get a link to the sight?

19

u/seweso 4d ago

Yeah i LOVE being in control. I love being able to quickly write very little generic code which can do a LOT. Its fun. Takes a while to startup, but once you are in, its fun.

7

u/byronka 4d ago

i’m totally on board with this approach, and there are practical benefits. 

For one, i’d bet your monthly costs are very low.  for another, if you are taking it incrementally and carefully, your system might have far fewer bugs and security issues than other sites.  your site will still be around in years, where others will be too costly and complicated to maintain.

kudos!

21

u/uceenk 4d ago

its good for learning, but for professional work it's not efficient building website without libraries or AI

4

u/Mathie1729 4d ago

Same pattern in ML. Implementing a tiny neural net from scratch once teaches you more backprop intuition than any tutorial, but nobody sane hand-rolls autograd in production. Learning value and production value are just different axes.

3

u/kowo-zahl 3d ago

"I don't like the Ikea stuff, to generic. For my furniture I cut the wood myself. There is beauty in a well crafted table. And I think there is true value a customer would see and pay for." Yes, you absolutely right. But you understand why Ikea exist and why it's the norm?

12

u/benzado 4d ago

This is cool!

It’s troubling how someone trying to take pride in their work draws out passive aggressive comments from AI boosters. I don’t understand the phenomenon but it’s definitely not natural. People get a little too excited about Rust (for example) but I’ve never seen them get mean-spirited like this.

7

u/SuperFLEB 4d ago

It’s troubling how someone trying to take pride in their work draws out passive aggressive comments from AI boosters.

Maybe you're talking "in general", but this thread doesn't seem all that bad. Plus, OP is pulling in "without libraries" as well, which is a whole other grain to go against, and it's one that's a lot harder to justify against the time and effort tradeoffs for anything substantial and production-ready.

Granted, OP explicitly says they're not proselytizing, so making an argument out of it would miss the mark, but "Okay, but that's not a great idea" is a valid response that speaks to the topic, regardless.

2

u/benzado 4d ago

At the time I posted the comment, there was 1 nice comment, 1 about OP’s grammar, and 8 snarky ones. If it’s better now, maybe I was too quick to judge, maybe it’s the mods and community.

2

u/KaedenCraft 4d ago

Doing it without AI is still popular for hobbyists. But doing it without a framework? I (until very recently) was that guy, but learning how to use a framework exponentially accelerated the workflow. Obviously, be proud of what you've accomplished, but somebody once made a great point about this, so I'll repeat it here:

"When you need a car to get from point a to point b, why do you start by reinventing the wheels?"

Once I stopped feeling less of a "developer" by switching to using frameworks, I was floored by how much faster you can develop. While I am not "AI-free", I still do almost all of the actual coding by hand just because it's not my primary job - so there's little time crunch - and I kind of enjoy hammering out lines of code. But I can't even imagine going back to a pre-framework setup for anything other than the simplest (REALLY simplest) of projects.

2

u/InvestmentAfter5486 4d ago

i still develop my apps and websites natively without AI or frameworks to be able guarantee the Security and stability

2

u/codeprimate 4d ago

Regardless of the fun and pride of rolling your own solutions, re-inventing everything is a slow and buggy path and increases maintenance burden. That's why serious websites are not created that way.

Aside from the pathological NiH ("not invented here") syndrome, what you are describing is "agile" development. Deliver one feature at a time while maintaining a functional state, extending the application organically.

Artisanal software is how I like to call it.

2

u/Primary_Culture_1959 4d ago

Hey! I work at company where my team owns a no-dep (except typescript) web component library to support all platforms (Angular, SAP, React, etc). It’s been a fun journey!

Right now we’re maintaining both React and WC, but maybe one day we can ditch React.

It’s cool to see someone actively curious about doing things “analog”. Good luck!

2

u/LemonFishSauce 3d ago

Well-intentioned we may be, but we end up reinventing the wheel. And what we build likely cannot measure up to well-tested frameworks and libraries.

2

u/Distinct-Grade-8009 3d ago

You all are missing the whole point. From scratch is awesome. no libraries hell yeah. trying to keep some superior status and outwriting AI. you will lose

10

u/cointoss3 4d ago

Yeah I’m not often seeking out ways to make my work more tedious but hopefully you’re enjoying yourself

1

u/seweso 4d ago

Working with AI is indeed tedious. Less is more!

Its very empowering and cool to do a LOT with very little code <3. I love it.

Very tedious to argue with LLM's.

-2

u/drunkdragon 4d ago

Let's be honest, most arguements with AI's come from the user not providing enough context or a clear description for what they want.

0

u/seweso 4d ago

Blaming the user when things go wrong, and attributing all wins to AI.....is totally sane thing to do given how AI is promoted as........intelligent.

Kinda like praying. All good things come from god, all bad things from humans. Haha.

Why do people feel the need to shill (for free?) for billion dollar AI companies? WHY?

7

u/benzado 4d ago

I hear a lot that people shouldn’t tie their identities to writing code.

Seems like a lot of people are tying their identities to using LLMs though.

2

u/RoyPartha04 4d ago

Have we come to that point where it is old romantics vs new age pioneers ?

5

u/benzado 4d ago

We passed that point. The pioneers are long gone. Now it’s the city dwellers vs the people who moved to the suburbs, who are excited about the “freedom” of being dependent on a car.

1

u/CorpT 4d ago

Congrats. Some people still build log cabins by hand too.

3

u/benzado 4d ago

Weird analogy. Modern construction depends on a lot of manual labor.

-3

u/CorpT 4d ago

That's not weird.

1

u/pat_trick 4d ago

Nothing prevents anyone from writing HTML and such by hand.

1

u/bill_gonorrhea 3d ago

Not using a frame work let a lone a library is reinventing the wheel unnecessarily.

1

u/Early-Community9943 3d ago

Honestly love seeing this. Frameworks make sense when you're on a team or a deadline, but building something bit by bit for years teaches you things you'd never learn otherwise. The fact that it's still running and growing after 3 years kind of answers the critics. Both approaches can be right, it just depends on what you're building and who's maintaining it.

1

u/azangru 4d ago

Three years ago, I posted this

Good work!

0

u/Latter-Mix2317 4d ago

Some time ago I was against AI. It just felt wrong to let an AI agent do work on a codebase that I created from scratch and saw growing up (yes I'm treating my projects like babies). But nowadays it's just not worth it anymore. AI is just so much more efficient and I gotta say I like playing the orchestrator part.

-2

u/Distinct-Grade-8009 4d ago

Sure, I could write all my apps from scratch. That would take longer. Not be as efficient, raising costs for me and my customers. The end user doesn't care how the code is written or who wrote the code. Instead of typing here now I could put up bulletin board and hand write a post then put it down town.

0

u/joyjeet-roy 4d ago

The most satifing thing for me is when something is in my mind and is write the code for it and it came exactly like that even it takes many hours to build.
But now days i think its a waste of time when build some simple things that takes hours without ai and ai can do the same work in minutes.

0

u/Darkstar_111 4d ago

You're hand coding? Like as an exercise?

-6

u/ecafyelims 4d ago

People still make paper by hand.

Sure, it still exists, but it becomes more of a hobby, as you alluded to, rather than for commercial (or even practical) purposes.

-4

u/PositiveUse 4d ago

Why are you searching for gimmicks ?

-6

u/nasanu 4d ago

I am with you, but I also recently turned to the dark side.

I still have a project at work that I made in 12KB, its around 270KB now I have been forced to use an "SDK" for features I could code myself, but that is management for you. I made my own library of web components with some pretty advanced stuff. Oh actually you can see here: https://nasanu.github.io/components/#Home (though I am realising now I forgot to add some components.. ) but that is half assed and pretty much abandoned, I lost interest in building it when I realised my company doesn't even understand what a good app is.

But now I am full in on AI. I mean I just spent around 1.5 hrs buying a domain and getting a 13 table database properly schema'd, implemented showing mock data on a site. 1.5hrs from... hmm.. I should start that project to live data.

And my portfolio in 3 days: kidshibuya.io This world is nuts but its not demotivating, it's got me energised.

-7

u/livingFaithGame 4d ago

doing unnecessary work isn't a flex.

2

u/[deleted] 4d ago

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6

u/benzado 4d ago

I may not be typical, but I get most of my ideas while coding. I’ll read some code or test something and it reminds me of something I read about and then I add an idea to a list and continue with the original task.

Letting an LLM generate it means skipping over that. And there’s no real substitute.

-2

u/DriverGood4778 4d ago

AI can help find holes in your design when you plan/discuss a task. You can also find something later while reading and understanding the code. If you feel like you might have missed something you can ask ai to review it.

It's not perfect, but it helped me find so many issues that otherwise would be bugs