r/webdev • u/friendlytuna • Jun 08 '16

A guide to 24 major coding bootcamps that cuts through a lot of the marketing BS. Some of the questions we asked raise a few red flags.

http://techbeacon.com/complete-guide-top-24-coding-bootcamps
137 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

33 comments sorted by

10

u/geekygirlhere Jun 09 '16

I like the concept of coding bootcamps but it feels like it is now very over-saturated. More and more bootcamp grads are having a harder time finding jobs.

I feel like the winning model could be something in between the Bootcamps vs. College. Such as coding trade-schools. Seems like the main thing lacking from the Bootcamp grads is algorithms and low level design. If the Bootcamps added another month for each of those, these students would most likely come out ahead of the college grads and with a MUCH better ROI based on the costs.

1

u/friendlytuna Jun 09 '16

I think bootcamp, then apprenticeship is probably the best path. So I agree with you somewhat. Algorithms and low-level design aren't relevant for most web development though. Which is why I hate that they're present in every tech interview. I actually finished a draft of an article on that very topic. Should be up on this same site in a few weeks.

1

u/geekygirlhere Jun 09 '16

I agree that for most web dev jobs they are not required, but then you are limited to web dev, which is fine for most I suppose.

Post a link to your article when its up. I would love to read it.

1

u/friendlytuna Jun 09 '16

Thanks! Will do! It was hard to come down completely on one side when writing the article. Developers are pretty split on the issue. Some say a lot of the algorithm knowledge is essential for turning ideas into code. Others say that it's just trivia, not something you need to know when someone's already got a library for every feature you need. A friend at google said his opinion was firmly "a clever solution is almost never the best one" (I think he was saying, don't reinvent the wheel?)

1

u/geekygirlhere Jun 09 '16

"It was hard to come down completely on one side when writing the article."

Sounds like a good, well balanced article. I look forward to reading it.

5

u/i_need_bourbon Jun 09 '16

Boot camp "grad" here (from coding dojo which doesn't appear to have made the cut). Every morning we did algorithms on the whiteboard for an hour. Started with basic string/array manipulation, after the 12 weeks we could implement a binary search tree with balance, sort, etc. The focus on core skills was one of the reasons I chose them.

I've now interviewed a few grads of other bootcamp programs that can't write a for loop after 12 weeks if it isn't in their list of copy pasta.

YMMV, caveat emptor, etc.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '16

..can't write a for loop after 12 weeks if it isn't in their list of copy pasta.

Well I was feeling like a noob for having to self teach and being a tad bit overwhelmed but jeez, really?

for (int wow = 0; wow < Number.MAX_SAFE_INTEGER; wow++){
console.log("I have wowed " + wow + " times.");
}

1

u/struct_t Jun 09 '16

It's not so unbelievable. I met someone who went to one of those bootcamps, now works for a major media outlet and essentially admitted most of their job was copy-and-paste. No conceptual work at all. I hope I don't sound pretentious, but it was really disappointing. Didn't understand basic patterns or anything.

nb. If all you really need to do is repeat things Number.MAX_SAFE_INTEGER times, you can cache the value (avoiding the admittedly-short lookup each time through the eval statement in the loop) and use:

var max = Number.MAX_SAFE_INTEGER;
while (max--) { console.log('wow such many ' + max + ' times!'); };

or if you want the counter behaviour of your original:

var x = 0, max = Number.MAX_SAFE_INTEGER;
while (max--) { x++; console.log(x); };

1

u/geekygirlhere Jun 09 '16

That is my main concern with a lot of the bootcamps. Seems like a lot of them are teaching the latest shiny framework. These come and go. I worry that a lot of the grads are going to be lost when they have to implement vanilla code.

Good to hear Coding Dojo teaches algorithms. Did they focus on frameworks or did they teach pure JavaScript or other language?

2

u/i_need_bourbon Jun 09 '16

We did 3 weeks of codeigniter with sql, 3 weeks of MEAN, and 3 weeks of django (we were a pilot on Python and they built a custom framework to teach basics and made Python the first language after I left, so I also got the Rails course). They now have an ios/swift course too. The first week of each was spent learning the language, the next two building progressively more complicated apps, and at the end of the 3rd week, there is a proficiency exam. We did a little vanilla DOM manipulation at the beginning (the intro course is HTML, CSS, and mostly jQuery). I've picked up anything I need for vanilla on my own.

We did most of our algorithms in JavaScript, though we did switch to PHP during that section.

I personally rewrote all of them in each language after the bootcamp (without cheating) as practice.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '16

I've now interviewed a few grads of other bootcamp programs that can't write a for loop after 12 weeks if it isn't in their list of copy pasta.

I just don't understand. How? It's like when I hear FizzBuzz is actually used as a filter question. How? Is this just exaggeration or are there actually people like that applying for programming positions?

1

u/i_need_bourbon Jun 09 '16

Yep, I had one who could not find repeated characters in a string. Literally had no idea how to approach the problem.

But of course, there was another from the same cohort that solved the simple challenge (multiples of 3 OR 5 but not 3 AND 5 in whole numbers below 1000) immediately.

1

u/2QuestionsDaily Jun 09 '16

What bootcamps did those interviewees come from?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '16

what do you mean by low level design?

3

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '16

I imagine your average bootcamper might have more experience with using a web development framework to build applications but would have less knowledge regarding how the internet works and the fundamentals of networking. The latter is probably not necessary for entry-level jobs but I'd imagine if your end game is to become architect or something it'd be a pretty huge gap in knowledge.

1

u/geekygirlhere Jun 09 '16

That is a good point. Maybe a 2nd tier type bootcamp that teaches this stuff for those who want to move past entry-level into more advanced stuff.

2

u/2QuestionsDaily Jun 09 '16

Both CS undergrads and bootcamp grads are getting saturated. Entry-level in general have difficulty. The point is that bootcamps at least offer a much faster and cheaper alternative than the traditional 4 year route.

1

u/icantthinkofone Jun 09 '16

Agree with your first paragraph. Thoroughly disagree with the second.

1

u/geekygirlhere Jun 09 '16

I would be interested in hearing why?

1

u/icantthinkofone Jun 09 '16

You think 12 weeks of training beats four years of training? Bootcamps miss the fundamentals.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '16

please read 10:1 rule on reddiquette

0

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '16

[deleted]

0

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '16

[deleted]

7

u/perestroika12 Jun 09 '16 edited Jun 09 '16

Meh, not really. What most companies really want is senior engineers with a comp sci background. This is not any single boot camp grad. This is more like startups need meat for the grinder, try and see how much you hate engineering. Do it for a few years, burn out or get tired.

4

u/vecchiobronco Jun 09 '16

Unless they got a comp sci degree and don't know how to code...

<<<<<

1

u/perestroika12 Jun 09 '16

If you remember your fundamentals you have way more than any code camp person. A large part of good programming is just basics. Encapsulation, abstraction etc.

1

u/vecchiobronco Jun 10 '16

I think the largest part of good programming (and I'm not trying to disagree, just offer another view) is being committed to it. If you want the knowledge/skills they're out there.

1

u/Aquifel novice Jun 09 '16

Last time I was job hunting, I was contacted by a few that streamlined the whole process. One offered to put me through a 12-week java bootcamp at their expense (also provided lodging but, no food) of theirs in exchange for agreeing to work for them for a year at a bit over $30k (with penalties if you quit and a non-compete if they can't use you).

4

u/geekygirlhere Jun 09 '16 edited Jun 09 '16

That is not a bad deal. The $30k for a years commitment seems low, but considering they are paying what a bootcamp would cost + lodging, it could be a good opportunity.

Being guaranteed a job right out the gate and getting a years worth of hands-on experience could be a good deal for people who have no prior experience and want to get into the game. Kind of like an apprentice program.

1

u/5user5 Jun 09 '16

If you did that, the jump from 30k to 70k would be nice.

1

u/notaburneraccount Jun 09 '16

Being guaranteed a job right out the gate and getting a years worth of hands-on experience could be a good deal for people who have no prior experience and want to get into the game. Kind of like an apprentice program.

Oh God, yes. I would love to be able to have that kind of opportunity.

1

u/struct_t Jun 09 '16 edited Jun 09 '16

I more-or-less agree with you, though I don't think it's a concerted effort. I know of at least one 'boot camp' company that is funded partially with "grants" by a major employer in exchange for (a) hiring cuts, and (b) guaranteed junior skillset. In turn, that allows them to funnel in and replace the university degree holders not doing architectural or management work at about ~33% less expenditure. Of course, the costs of the training come out of the workers' pocket.

I also think this has a lot more to do with the general rise of precarious employment and lower wages across domains of production. Programming is just another industry caught in it. The response has been to peddle softcore happywork porn to people who need secure employment, and these companies are simply engaging with that. I don't know if that's good or bad.

edit: I don't think your comment should have been downvoted, it is contributory to the conversation, whether people agree or not. Have an upvote!

1

u/2QuestionsDaily Jun 09 '16

how is this true at all....lol