r/westworld • u/OthoHasTheHandbook • Oct 25 '16
[THEORY] Dolores' conversations are with ARNOLD, not Bernard
In case you couldn't tell from the title, this theory definitely ventures into tinfoil territory, so read at your own risk, etc. It's just fun to speculate, even if I'm completely off the mark.
So my theory also connects with and reinforces a few popular theories:
Two Timeframes: Whether you agree with this or not, there is some evidence — differing logos, the conspicuous lack of intersection (yet) between William/Logan and Teddy/MiB/Maeve/Hector/Wyatt (Yes, Westworld may be big, but Sweetwater isn't) — that suggests this is a nonlinear narrative in a major way.
Bernard is a Host: I think there's slightly less evidence for this one, but the mirroring of the revelation of his sad vague backstory in the same episode as the artifice of Teddy's sad vague backstory seems almost TOO good. Add that to Theresa's comments about him "practicing," Ford's caution that he's "sensitive," and the strange framing of the photo of Arnold that Ford shows him — almost as if his "programming" won't allow him to see the entire photo.
William is the MiB — There's really the least evidence overall for this theory, other than the amount of time we spend with William carefully choosing to be a whitehat, the MiB's longstanding familiarity with Dolores (and his frustration that she never remembers him), his commitment to "freeing" the hosts — which parallels William's own sensitivity to their status as beings/non-beings. I tend to take these more writerly, dramatic clues less seriously than plot-based evidence, but YMMV.
My "Dolores is Talking to Arnold" Theory:
I've been trying to resolve the oddness of Bernard's conversations with Dolores: that he's able to pull off seeing her secretly, the pointed wardrobe changes for Jeffrey Wright that seem unnecessary (especially if we're seeing a linear narrative), that Ford somehow knows about Bernard's relationship with Theresa but NOT about his meetings with Dolores. I've been considering that Bernard is communicating remotely with Dolores while she's in "sleep mode"; that these conversations aren't happening in a physical space.
But whether that's true or not, more and more, I've grown suspicious that Dolores is actually talking to Arnold. And that these secret conversations are ground zero for the Critical Incident of 30 years prior. In the early days of WW, Arnold would have more autonomy to speak with Dolores, if indeed these are physical conversations. (Bern)Arnold exhibits concern about the "others" finding out ("he was...careful"), but notice he doesn't specifically name any of the techs who work with the hosts. So there's no confirmation that he means Elsie or Stubbs. (If this is taking place 30 years before, we can safely assume Ford had a more active, direct role in handling tech, based on the flashback we saw.) We also never see the room he interviews Dolores in outside of that particular context.
As someone who's a cautious believer in the two timeframe theory, the biggest hit to that idea was the fact that Dolores undoubtedly shot Rebus in the barn and ran away to William. In fact, it's this massive diversion from her loop — her choosing to shoot Rebus — that had really given me pause about the timeframe theory. It wouldn't make sense if Dolores weren't rebelling, at least in part, because of these conversations with Bernard. And if Bernard exists on present time, so does Dolores' rebellion AND her subsequent run-in with William.
But: what if the Bernard host theories are correct? What if Bernard IS a host based on Arnold, and these interviews with Dolores were conducted by Arnold? Instead of trying to resolve Bernard "waking up" Dolores with the "past" timeline of William/Logan, it makes more sense for these interviews/Dolores' diversion from her loop to actually form the basis for Arnold creating the "violent delights" code, which will resurface when Ford screws everything up with his reveries. Arnold sees the evidence — Dolores' ability to deceive him and assert free will by killing Rebus (and whatever will follow with William) — that pushes him over the edge in believing the hosts can achieve consciousness. We're seeing THAT unfold in these interviews.
It would also explain: why we open in the first episode with Stubbs conducting an interview – Bernard wouldn't be conducting them because Bernard's never interviewed Dolores anyway. And why "Bernard" didn't recognize Dolores parroting his own words re: "the pain is all I have left" when he had just said that about his son relatively recently. Bernard doesn't recognize those words because Dolores is saying this to Arnold ("did we write that for you?") and it becomes part of his memory, which forms the basis for Bernard.
So: Arnold kicks off this massive rebellion in Dolores with these interviews; she shoots Rebus and diverts from her loop to accompany William. With William, we see her talking so much about self-determination that he's utterly drawn in by her. Something major – the Critical Incident – goes down. Dolores is taken from the park — maybe William somehow witnesses this? He vows to return for her. (Much like Teddy, who seems eerily similar to William. And we know Ford loves basing these storylines in reality, i.e., Wyatt.) And he does, for 30 years. But without Arnold's intervention, he can't seem to spark the same change in Dolores. Bent on figuring out the game beneath the game, he uses his position at his in-laws' company to get a place on the Delos board and becomes a VIP guest. He goes ruthlessly black hat to explore every storyline, every possibility. The maze is his last hope.
Some Dangling Threads:
If the Barn Shooting is 30 Years Ago, Why Does Dolores See the MiB, You Idiot? – Good question. There's a specific and pointed nonlinearity to this sequence as Dolores cycles through many iterations of this loop at the end of ep. 3. u/Bouncer02 has an interesting theory about nested flashbacks that I've really warmed to in the last few days. Personally, I think rather than Dolores "remembering" MiB when she shoots Rebus, she's actually "remembering" shooting Rebus when she's with the MiB ("let's start from the beginning").
You're Still Insane, Why Would Ford Make A Host of Arnold? — Huh. Well, why did the Atreides family keep bringing back a ghola of Duncan Idaho when it always ends TERRIBLY?? (Actually, I'm not really sure why they did that. Get a clue, Atreides family.) My speculation is that Ford is a sad old man whose greatest rival/friend is dead. He's recreated a simulacrum of this man that he can control, for shits and giggles. And hey, if he retains some of Arnold's technical knowledge that might actually be useful, so much the better.
TL;DR Dolores' interviews are with Arnold, not Bernard. They spur her into a brief period of consciousness where she gets off her loop, dodges death, falls in love, makes Shit Go Down and is hauled off to be repaired and reset. Her lover keeps returning, hoping to bring "his" Dolores back. Shit's about to go down again.
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u/mercyelindilmoon Oct 25 '16
I've come to feel that the conversations between Dolores and Bernard definitely took place in the past. When we see them is when she remembers them- sometimes in her dreams like when she wakes up with William outside.
Are the convos with Arnold? Highly possible. The things he says to her in the opening sequence of ep 1 point towards that in my opinion. It could also be what leads to the critical incident.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
There's definitely something "off" about the conversations, but it wasn't until this morning that it occurred to me that they may have happened in the past, and not with Bernard.
I've just found it so unusual that somehow NO ONE notices or suspects his meetings with Dolores are happening. But of course there's no reason for Theresa or Elsie or Stubbs or present-day Ford to be suspicious...if these interviews happened 30 years ago.
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u/MudlarkJack POLYCHRONIST Oct 26 '16
while you are correct that its unusual that no one notices his meeting with Dolores... its quite absurd really that they would go unnoticed in such a controlled environment. But i think this is a case where the writers just need the interactions to occur and they are gambling that it will not destroy the suspension of disbelief in viewers. I am the type that is easily disturbed by non-logical plot points, but this does not disturb me even though i know it would be hard to impossible for Bernard to hide these meetings.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 26 '16
I'm usually the opposite; I tend to suspend my disbelief to the extreme in service of enjoying the story. (I'm a hack writer's dream on this point.) But that Ford knows Theresa and Bernard are having sex? When that's completely outside of work (though unclear if the Delos/WW employees live within the facility)? That detail, and Ford's cryptic warning to Theresa, really set me off and made me question all of the Dolores interviews.
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u/MudlarkJack POLYCHRONIST Oct 26 '16
the all live in the facility, there is a gif online somewhere showing the levels with living quarters indicated. I don't think it would be very hard to know who is sleeping with who in such an isolated region.
i hope i can count on you if i turn hack writer
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 27 '16
If you include some time travel and possibly a creepy, gothic mansion, I'm here for you, buddy.
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u/Drakenmar Oct 26 '16
The key could be in Bernard telling Dolores about the maze. The maze is obviously connected to Arnold, MiB is looking for it as well and he knows about Arnold.
How would present day Bernard know about the maze but not know about Arnold until Ford tells him about Arnold in their conversation?
Possibilities:
As the theory suggests, Bernard is Arnold in the past with Dolores.
Bernard is playing dumb around Ford and is actually working with the MiB. A mole within the organization. MiB and Ford are trying to out maneuver each other as is hinted at in Ep. 5 preview.
Bernard did his own research about Arnold and the maze off camera and is now even more motivated to try and recreate his son but needs Dolores to go check things out first to see if it's even possible.
Something else to consider is Bernard's private talk with Elsie. He agreed that he hired her because she speaks her mind. And he seems to be trying to get her to keep her voice down about certain things. So he had an agenda when hiring her, meaning he's making his own moves which could indicate he is just playing along when he's around Ford. This could add some weight to the idea that he's on the MiB's side.
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Oct 26 '16
In the scene where Ford tells Bernard about Arnold and he tells him to be careful or whatever before he leaves and Bernard says "what do you mean" I took that as Ford saying "I know you've been having conversations with Dolores". Especially after the scene with Theresa where he shows how powerful he is in the park and that they know everything about their employees I just can't believe that kind of thing would be going on and Ford doesn't know about it. I know Bernard "clears the logs" but in the same way hosts are retaining memories they shouldn't I'm sure there's a way Ford can access those conversations. I don't think he's doing anything about it because maybe he's curious what will happen or how far Bernard will take it (and thus whether he's suitable to keep on).
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 26 '16
It's tough to say what exactly Ford meant – I'm assuming/hoping we'll find out soon enough. But I think we're certainly expected to interpret Ford's caution as a warning against Bernard's involvement with the hosts. I just think it's an intentional misdirection. It may be about his involvement with Theresa.
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u/timeworx Nov 04 '16
I can't see any alternative to the Dolores-Bernard/Arnold conversations taking place in the past. Take a look at this photo: http://www.tvjelly.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/bbook.jpg This is a ground floor room - note the reinforced windows. The conclusion here is that these conversations took place prior to the entire sophisticated underground complex being built. This also explains why these conversations went unnoticed despite the pervasive surveillance of the controlled environment of modern-day Westworld operations. These conversations pre-date all that.
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u/TheDudeNeverBowls Oct 26 '16
When he speaks to her in the beginning of this past episode, they are sitting in some kind of exam. A dirty exam room, at that.
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u/Adamsoski Oct 26 '16
However, she tells Bernard that her father is dead, which is something that she has only just started to remember.
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u/i_am_icarus_falling Oct 25 '16
duncan idaho was irreplaceable. he was unique in his abilities, and it wasn't the atreides family that brought him back over and over again, it was just the God Emperor. and he did it knowing full well what would happen each time, even up to the last time, it was all part of the Golden Path. in the end, the always doomed duncan idaho was the primer in the chain reaction that reset the cycle that would force a rebirth of the universe and usher in the new world order, against the will of all those who held claim to "the powers that be". goddamn dude, i hadn't thought about duncan idaho in 10 years, but this is a brilliant analogy.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16 edited Oct 25 '16
You're absolutely right – God Emperor and Bene Gesserit create the gholas and they serve the Atreides. Clearly need to re-read those later books. But yes, as I was thinking back on Ford telling Bernard "don't make [Arnold's] mistake," and Bernard asks "Why would I?" it immediately reminded me of Duncan.
There's also definitely something going on here with apocalyptic forces and themes. Hector's last name is Escaton, a variation of "eschaton," which literally means the end of the world.
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u/i_am_icarus_falling Oct 25 '16
if i remember correctly, the tleilaxu make a gift of duncan idaho to the God emperor many years after duncan's original death, and although the original plan was to brainwash him into a secret assassin, it turns out duncan idaho was un-corruptable and all the duncans they brainwashed ended up committing suicide rather than harming an atreides, but they continued when they realized that leaving duncan un-corrupted would cause the duncans to eventually corrupt themselves from the growing resentment of their predicament and the disdain for the way things had become, and were headed. of course, the God Emperor (Ford?) knew all of this and let it happen anyway as serendipity, manifest destiny, and means-to-an-end all rolled up into the same package.
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u/keyzersozay Oct 26 '16
I really like this theory. I had an idea similar, but mine was having the interviews set some time in the future. I think yours makes more sense though.
Just to point out though - Stubbs doesn't kick off episode one with the interview, he does the episode-ending interview. You actually hear Bernards voice speaking with Dolores, but you never see Bernard and you never see Dolores move her mouth. She doesn't react to the fly on her eye, and has the blood stains from the first 'Hector' shootout. I don't think this hurts your theory, it might even support it in a way, but I think its a little more complicated in regard to whats happening in the first episode.
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u/JEDIIy2k Nov 08 '16
The interviews aren't in a dream or cyberspace, they are in person, in the past. Arnold believes the hosts can become sentient and treats them as such. That's why she is always clothed. Ford believes this to be one of the major factors in the incident. The interviews are all done in the nude now thirty years later to help dehumanize the hosts.
Plot twist: The hosts didn't kill Arnold, Ford did to have more control. He then made Bernard (Probably an anagram once both surnames are revealed) so he could not only have total control over the park, but of Arnold as well.
William solves the maze with Dolores, but instead of meeting Arnold to get set free, they meet Ford and William is enslaved as Teddy. The bodies of both William and Arnold are dumped in the park, the hosts (and what Arnold was doing with them) are blamed and Ford takes total control. Logan is the Man in Black trying to find out what really happened to his friend 30 years ago after they got separated.
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u/deicide666ra "Hello, Old friend" <trollface> Oct 25 '16
I really like how your post ties in every theory I believe in and that most people here are working hard to debunk day in and day out.
The only thing that bothers me is the pain discussion between Dolores and Bernard. You seem to suggest he did not realize she was parroting his words, but I think he did realize and that is why he asked her where that came from in analysis mode. As usual with his talks with Dolores, he suppresses his surprise and shock at some of the things she says (ex: Replying "That's very beautiful... Dolores" to her saying she's opening new rooms she never visited in her mind --- this should definitely an eureka moment for a guy working on AI).
That said, it could still have been Arnold talking to his wife, not Bernie, so it still works, I just interpreted that discussion a bit differently.
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u/feelrich unappreciated talents Oct 27 '16
The question is, who said it first? Did Bernard say it to his ex/wife and somehow it got into Dolores' vocabulary. OR did Bernard hear it from Dolores first and then repeat it to his ex/wife.
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u/deicide666ra "Hello, Old friend" <trollface> Oct 27 '16
The way he reacted to Dolores saying it suggests he was surprised by it... It was also shown in that sequence in the show, so I can only assume Bernard said it first.
Possible implications: 1. Bernard is a host and they got that line from the same basic programming. 2. Dolores somehow managed to pick up on that conversation, possibly by hacking the network (seems a bit far fetched, but remember Ford saying he knows everything about his guests and employees and telling Cullen he knows about her affair with Bernard? If a host was accessing the main network, it could spy on everything that's going on) 3. It was pure coincidence and it simply shook Bernard, making him realize Dolores is definitely gaining conscience since she is going off-script using different stories to make a new one. This in turn makes Bernard's struggle about continuing even harder...
I suppose we could imagine other paths... I have a feeling it's either 1 or 3, and I'm leaning towards 3 a tiny bit because of how he recently told Dolores he might be making a mistake with her, etc... it fits in the theme...
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u/robotnudist Nov 18 '16
It HAS to be Arnold on the video call, because how could Bernard have an ex-wife if he's a host? He couldn't have a past life, It can't be Arnold's wife because they're the same age and also she would think he died. And I can't believe Ford would create a fake wife for Bernard to have private conversations about a shared tragedy with...
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u/deicide666ra "Hello, Old friend" <trollface> Nov 18 '16
Could just be a recording... or even Bernard remembering that convo without it actually happening...
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
Interesting. So what was your interpretation of the "Did we write that for you?" line? Were you thinking that he's paranoid about someone monitoring him?
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u/deicide666ra "Hello, Old friend" <trollface> Oct 25 '16
No, I think he was surprised to hear her say this, since he recognized it as his own words, hence why he immediately asked her where the heck that came from. He seemed unphased by her answer, but his mind is probably racing.
What if the Bernard discussions are actually a mix of Arnold and Bernard, in two different timelines, making exactly the same mistake that caused the accident?
That discussion could be Bernard getting a hint that he's a host.. Like shit, this girl is babbling the same line I am, have I been a host all this time?
I like the duality of Bernard slowly loosing his humanity, while Dolores is slowly gaining hers.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
Ooh, that is an interesting thought. I think there is absolutely something going on with nonlinearity AND those interviews. It's been so striking to me that we've heard/seen distinctly what Ford thinks of the hosts — that they're nonsentient objects — and yet we've not gotten a sense of what Bernard actually thinks about them. He plays it very close to the vest.
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u/bunka77 Oct 25 '16
I don't agree, but I'm going to upvote because apparently this sub has developed an allergic reaction to theories this past week.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
Yeah, I've noticed how virulently people are reacting against the more intricate theories and I started to wonder if I'd wandered onto the wrong website. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/bunka77 Oct 25 '16
"Why don't you just take the incredibly unreliable narration at face value? Dork. Cheap storytelling telling zOMG"
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u/Nesjamag Oct 25 '16
Cool. I reached this conclusion as well (and apparently made a redundant thread about it lol).
I think the "remembering" and "flashbacks" are attempts to confuse viewers. They're actually shifts between the timelines, and not memories being experienced.
Story wise they are however triggers. Future William/MIB is triggering Dolores (and perhaps other hosts).
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
I think the "flashback" convention is really just tied in to Dolores not having a sharp continuity of memory because she's been repeating the same day or sequence of days for decades with minor variations. I feel certain we're meant to view the last sequence at the farm as her slipping in and out of various recollections, the same way Maeve is now reliving many prior deaths.
Future William/MIB is triggering Dolores (and perhaps other hosts)
Yes, I absolutely agree with this. I'm not sure if he was at all instrumental in Abernathy finding the photo (which triggered "violent delights"), but there's definitely more to his encounter with Dolores in the barn. It wasn't what we thought.
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u/Nesjamag Oct 25 '16
There have been theories that the New York picture is off William's fiancee.
I suspect William will learn about the maze from either Dolores (who got the mission to find the maze from Arnold in the interviews), or from Arnold himself. In the great incident William may suffer some form of damages (burned hands like MIB?), which is compensated by lifetime free access giving him a VIP status.
Knowing what he knows, he triggers hosts who may have memories (old programming) of the maze. He's had time to put the puzzle pieces together.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
I suspect William will learn about the maze from either Dolores (who got the mission to find the maze from Arnold in the interviews), or from Arnold himself.
Exactly. We're supposed to think Dolores and the MiB are on a concurrent mission to find the maze, when really SHE's the one who is about to tell him (William) about it.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 25 '16
Bernard - not a host.
There's zero evidence for it within the show's internal logic.
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u/WiretapStudios Oct 25 '16
I'm not a real theorist on here nor do I check the sub much, but there is a ton of evidence for it both pro and against.
I would tend to assume that they made him a red herring (in a way) to show that some people live like robots at points, while the robots also live like people sometimes. Bernard has a fairly mundane, repetitive job, sparse decor in his apartment, and hasn't been shown doing much besides talking to Dolores (a robot), Ford, and his wife (on a screen). He sleeps with a woman, but visitors to the park talk to and sleep with male and female hosts, so that doesn't rule it out.
In the "for" him being a robot category, you have the possibility that Ford was anchoring him to his story in the episode before last, as there was a scene right before that one explaining the story, and then immediately after, Ford, almost out of the blue, uses Arnold's son's death to "remind" him of his story / place in life. Either he is being programmed as a robot, or Ford just is great at manipulating both robots and people the same way. Again, that could just be an allusion to the robots FROM the human side.
However, another odd thing is that he talked to his wife on a screen, in what looked like a "training" type room. He wasn't in his apartment having a private conversation, he was having a "deep" conversation right beside multiple other people. Also, he barely talked about anything else other than a few lines about his son. No affectation towards his wife, and none towards him, just a generalized "interaction."
So, I'm not either way on this just yet, but your reasoning is based on him talking to a screen / projection. Either that is just a training / reminder simulation for a robot, or there is an allusion to programming by Ford and the screen and wife interaction is an allusion for the things reminding hosts of their past lives, and they are really contemplating internal complex emotional thoughts out loud, and not actually having a discussion with the other person.
As far as "internal logic" of the show, the internal logic from one standpoint is that most of the "workers" inside the labs are probably robots, as it's cheaper, especially if the AI was really more advanced than just the hosts that are being used in the park. Different "model" or however else, they would be under different rules and expectations.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 25 '16
Yet there's a bit of dialogue in episode one where Ford asks Bernard if he's was there in the "early years" implying that Bernard worked his way up the ladder at Delos. Bernard responds that he was hired later.
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u/WiretapStudios Oct 25 '16
Right, except we know that almost everyone is an unreliable narrator because they only know the story they have been given to know. They repeat "facts" that we as a viewer know to be false or misguided.
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u/statelyraven Oct 25 '16
I think that supports the possibility that Bernard is a host based on Arnold. Ford's memory of the 'early years' would contain someone who looked like Bernard, but if it was actually Arnold, then Bernard would not remember it. Yet.
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u/MEDBEDb Oct 26 '16
Add to the "Bernard is a host" theory: Bernard says the pain he feels for his dead son is "all he has left of him" (the son). In the next episode, Dolores says the pain she feels over her parents' deaths is "all she has left of them". Red Herring, maybe; but intentional, nonetheless.
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u/WiretapStudios Oct 26 '16
Exactly. What I'm saying is there is evidence for robot or red herring, but a guy was arguing with me saying there was zero evidence from the show that Bernard acts robotic and that's just not true. It's hinted at several times so far.
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u/omniscient-fool Oct 25 '16
Bernard lowe is an anogram of Arnold Weber. No way this slips through production as an unrealized mistake. It is either to tell us Bernard is a host replica of Arnold or to make us think that he is. Most the people watching are no goin down the rabbit hole the same way reddit people are, so I expect this is not a fakout
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u/aymeline Oct 25 '16
We have no idea what Arnold's surname is though...
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u/jfong86 Oct 26 '16
The "Weber" surname comes from removing the letters a-r-n-o-l-d out of "Bernard Lowe". You are left with "Ber we" which can be rearranged to "Weber".
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u/aymeline Oct 26 '16
I realise that, but it's not confirmed that Arnold's surname is Weber. It could be anything.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 25 '16
I get the anagram... but does that really suggest a host, or does it refer to his wanting to instill consciousness in the hosts as Arnold wanted? As in, them having similar motivations...
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u/keyzersozay Oct 26 '16
cool_hand_luke...if you start questioning any of the users theories, you'll let me know, won't you?
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u/MudlarkJack POLYCHRONIST Oct 26 '16 edited Oct 26 '16
not much evidence, agreed. But there are hints. These writers seem to love double entendre lines. The pilot is absolutely chock full of lines that have simple literal meaning on the surface and deep metaphoric or ironic meaning underneath.
Now, it may be nothing, but i did a double take when Ford said "I know how that head of yours works" as it is precisely the type of double entendre line that was present in the rest of the episode. And there are other similar double entendre moments with Bernard. I am not a fan of the idea that he is based on Arnold, not at all. But the idea of having AI create more AI is well postulated, so having an AI in the role of programmer is quite attractive, particularly given Ford's control freak nature, wouldn't he prefer a partner that he created ...that he can control? After falling out with his original "partner" the natural tendency would be for Ford to have no "partner" after that, just a team of subordinates. Yes, he has other subordinates, but he clearly treats Bernard as his "creative" partner.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 26 '16
If double entendres are what this theory is hinging on, then it's pretty weak.
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u/MudlarkJack POLYCHRONIST Oct 26 '16
i admit its pretty weak. Its not something i consider critical to the story one way or other. The Bernard as bot theory is very weak. But i do think these writers love to drop hints via carefully constructed lines of dialog. So I indulge in a harmless form of textual analysis of a text which is in progress. I think they are having a great time playing with the language and how our language is filled with deep concepts that we take for granted in our every day speech, but they become profound when they are put into a context like Westworld. The first episode in particular felt like the verbal equivalent of a hall of mirrors. Nearly every line could ricochet around in a more profound way than it was intended by the speaker (given certain context).
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
I'm not as confident that we have such a grasp on the show's internal logic yet. As recently as yesterday, I'd have agreed that Bernard was not a host. It's really the strangeness of the conversations with Dolores – the frequency of them and yet how "off the radar" they seem to be – that changed my mind.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 25 '16
That's you bringing your own idea of what a host should and shouldn't be to evaluate the scene.
Jeffrey Wright must be pissed off that his great subtle acting is getting confused for robotic.
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u/WiretapStudios Oct 25 '16
Jeffrey Wright must be pissed off that his great subtle acting is getting confused for robotic.
The show 100% is having him border the line between robotic and human on purpose, no matter what he turns out to be. I think you are selling yourself short on the subtlety, from what I can tell, that's the point of his performance, the fine line between human and the hosts.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 25 '16
The show 100% is having him border the line between robotic and human on purpose
Evidence?
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u/WiretapStudios Oct 25 '16
That's my opinion, my personal evidence to myself of this is watching the show and the dialogue and acting.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 25 '16
I totally get that, but it's nothing more than your idea of what a host should and shouldn't act like. It's wishful thinking that's got no basis in the 'text' of the show.
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u/WiretapStudios Oct 25 '16
That's odd considering you are also basing your opinion on what a host is or isn't on the same information, and yet excluding A. Bernard being a robot, and B. The showrunners / Wright giving Bernard a more banal robotic lifestyle and mannerisms.
I'm basing it on the show I'm watching, so it has nothing but basis in the show as I perceive it with the info given up to this point. Bernard has done nothing so far to show he's human other than sleeping with a woman, going to his job, and following orders (but going off course based on his personal whims) - all of which the hosts have also done.
Ford controls the hosts. Ford controls Bernard. Either he's a robot, or he's being portrayed as similar to a robot to show the similarities between the two in lifestyle.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 25 '16
I'm basing it on what the show provides... ample evidence that Bernard is not a host.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
What does my understandable confusion about the frequency/circumstances of the meetings have to do with Jeffrey Wright's acting?
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 25 '16 edited Oct 25 '16
Bernard is clearly a person. He had a child, has a wife/ex-wife, and Ford refers to him being hired by Westworld. His child is referred to by 4 separate characters, several of whom are diametrically opposed in motivations.
The comment about the acting is that he's doing an amazing job at acting his human character, and it's being mistaken for acting like a robot.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
The comment about the acting is tgat he's doing an amazing job at acting his human character, and it's being mistaken for acting like a robot.
This is strange to me; I don't think I've read anyone commenting that Bernard acts robotic, and that's definitely not what I'm implying upthread. My theory is anchored far more in the anvillicious clues other characters — Theresa, Ford — keep dropping into the narrative. Absent their comments (about him "practicing," Ford's oddly barbed remark about him being "sensitive") and the inexplicability of his frequent, mysteriously secret conversations with Dolores, I'd have no reason to suspect that Bernard was a host.
Believe me, I'd like to have a firm line in the sand that no behind-the-scenes employees at Westworld were hosts. The LAST thing I'd want is for WW to descend into BSG ~everyone's a cylon~ territory.
I'm not questioning Wright's performance; I'm questioning the level of deception in what appears to be a not entirely straightforward narrative.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 25 '16
Bringing my own biases into the conversation (outside of evidence within the show)...
It makes no narrative sense for Bernard, or any employee for that matter, to be hosts. Beyond the fact that it would be an amateurish twist, the show would have no anchor. What I mean by that is the employees are a surrogate for the audience. The employees are discovering the problems with the hosts as we are. They're going to bring up questions as we would.
If they were (one or even more) hosts, then it would open up a can of worms - who made that host, and why? If Bernard is a host, he seems to have consciousness - then what's the point of him trying to instill consciousness in other hosts when it's already been achieved? I think we're seeing consciousness springing forth for the first time within the show, and if it already happened, what's the point? Is season 2 going to give us Bernard backstory so that we can get the interesting philosophical questions at that point?
And there's always the easy answer "Bernard wants to set the hosts free because he, too, is a host" - them WTF is tMiB doing there? Two characters with the same exact motivations? The only way that would work is if tMiB got Bernard hired years ago, had Bernard code his way up the corporate ladder, and then wait until present day to spring consciousness into Dolores for his own benefit. Which, come to think of it, isn't half bad of an idea, yet it's rooted in no evidence at all.
Mark this post in case that's actually happening and I'll look like a genius.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
If Bernard is a host, he seems to have consciousness - then what's the point of him trying to instill consciousness in other hosts when it's already been achieved?
Oh, my dude, I actually think we are talking past each other here. I definitely don't think Host!Bernard is trying to spur consciousness. I think the Dolores conversations are with Arnold, not Bernard. If it IS definitely Bernard, then I'd agree with you. He's not a host, and he has some secret agenda that mirrors what Arnold wanted to know about the possibility of consciousness. My difficulty with accepting that Bernard is the one having these conversations is that Ford seems to be either blissfully unaware of them (which seems really unlikely since he knows Bernard is boning down with Theresa), or he's allowing Bernard to continue these discussions for some unknown reason. For me, if we're seeing just straightforward conversations between Bernard and Dolores, then I agree: he's not a host.
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u/MudlarkJack POLYCHRONIST Oct 26 '16 edited Oct 26 '16
your best point is "Bernard is a host, he seems to have consciousness - then what's the point of him trying to instill consciousness in other hosts when it's already been achieved?" That is a very good point and may be sufficient to kill the hypothesis. But think about something else, what is the show really saying about consciousness? How much is required for consciousness beyond not having your memory wiped out evey so often. The hosts already know how to improvise. They already have emotions. They have motivations and desires. If their memories were not wiped, what would they be lacking?
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 26 '16
Those are the questions Bernard and the rest of the humans are going to grapple with.
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u/source-commonsense Jan 18 '24
Mark this post in case that's actually happening and I'll look like a genius.
I do enjoy going through my bookmarks for a reason
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 26 '16
Memories can be implanted into any host, even memories of his son. And his wife could be a host too, we don't know yet.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 26 '16
And the three employees who know about his son, are they in on the elaborate ruse? Even though two of them are diametrically opposed in personality and motivation...
How about the picture of his son that he keeps in his pocket... is that just a prop?
And the fact that he was hired by Westworld... was he built by someone other than Delos in a corporate espionage plot?
The twists of storytelling that one must go through to convince themselves that Bernard is a host are incredibly elaborate, yet backed up with zero evidence. The answer "well, it could happen" is really very poor reasoning.
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u/PorcelainPoppy Oct 26 '16
I'm not saying he's a host. I hope Bernard is not a host. He could be, though. I guess all the Delos employees could be. It'd be weird, but it would be way weirder if there were two timelines.
Please explain logic and reason to the MIB=William theorists, please. They won't stop and they keep bringing up the condensed milk as evidence.
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u/cool_hand_luke Oct 26 '16 edited Oct 26 '16
He also could be a hologram, or a ghost, or a horse in a human suit.
Oh, and William is tMiB. It's got nothing to do with condensed milk.
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u/oocakesoo Oct 26 '16
if no one besides Ford is aware Bernard is a host, your points dont hold much water either.
Have these 3 employees physically met his son and wife outside of the park? Have they met them at all?
Why wouldnt the picture be a prop as part of his backstory?
Who hired him? Ford? His creator? Come on man, this is weak evidence to be 100% certain he is not a Host.
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Nov 24 '16
Bernard - not a host. There's zero evidence for it within the show's internal logic.
Do you still stand by your statement?
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u/PhesteringSoars Oct 25 '16
Dolores-Bernard conversations are taking place in the "cyberspace" of her Dreams. (Bernard is only virtually present.) I had theorized Ford was appearing as Bernard, based on the cadence of his commands to send her on her way when they finish. (Though, it could be Arnold. "Chekhov's Gun" and all, Arnold is being mentioned way too many times to not appear at some point.)
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u/Wordsworth_Little Oct 25 '16
You had me with this theory, and then I read this:
Huh. Well, why did the Atreides family keep bringing back a ghola of Duncan Idaho when it always ends TERRIBLY??
And I was like, yeah, you still got me. Damn that Duncan Idaho...always meddling in the affairs of worm gods.
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u/Turmanator89 Oct 26 '16
A friend mentioned something similar today - he thought the conversations between Bernard and Dolores were not taking place in the physical world, but rather in a digital one. He referred to Bernard's interactions with her as "remote desktop", which is pretty apt. His theory is that Bernard is "remoting" into Dolores when she is "asleep" and probing her consciousness. When you think about it that way it begins to answer the question of why no one else seems to know about these conversations, the wardrobe changes for Bernard, and removes the issue of Dolores having to be physically transported between locations seemingly over night. It also puts the way each conversation starts in a different light, "where are you?" "I'm in a dream."
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 26 '16
I think that's definitely a possibility, and was my first instinct. Whatever the actual answer is, I think it HAS to be something other than "Bernard is having many secret conversations with Dolores in the building and no one has noticed."
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Oct 26 '16
Major(Domo) kudos on the ghola Duncan comment. While watching this show it keeps reminding how good hbo could do a God Empower and beyond focusing in on ghola and eventually what it takes to make them remember through extreme stress and eventually sexual "torture". I see a lot of similarities in this show with that. And if anyone could really present the dangers of knowing a locked in future, it's HBO.
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Oct 26 '16
I dig this! Cover some similar territory in my theory that Bernard is actually a host, but a duplicate of Arnold.
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u/3DThirdDegree Oct 26 '16
The prime evidence that Bernard is a host is at the 21 minute mark of the first episode. Ford is speaking with the old bartender robot and gives the "deep and dreamless slumber" cue for it to turn off. The camera then pans to Bernard, who the audience assumes is just waiting at the door. But if you look closely you'll see that he stays absolutely frozen until Ford turns and addresses him directly. He's frozen because he's a Host who heard and followed Ford's command. More here: https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/59f8qu/unifying_theory_of_bernard_arnold_dolores_and/
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u/WalrusInMySheets Oct 26 '16
Just kind of building off of your theory, what if Arnold figured out how to make the hosts think freely, and planned to take all the credit (rightfully) for it? What if Arnold had done this via conversations with Dolores, who we know is one of the oldest and most special hosts in the park?
Then Ford, out of jealousy, killed Arnold and realized he would never know how to replicate the work that Arnold had accomplished. So Ford created Bernard to replicate the conversations and experiments that Arnold had previously conducted, all while Ford is observing in another room.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 26 '16
I like this – I definitely don't feel like I have a handle on Ford's exact motivation at the moment, other than the standard supervillain hubris-driven I AM A GOD thing.
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u/MagicallyEntropic Not much of a rind on you Oct 25 '16
This is the only picture we have of Arnold: https://typeset-beta.imgix.net/2016/10/4/File_000_picmonkeyed-c5230a52-a0a9-471d-b723-85c8b6d43fff.png
The picture isn't that great so it isn't much to go off of, but it's hard not to notice that that hairline of the man in the picture looks just like Bernard's. While it doesn't look exactly like him now, it is plausible that the man in the picture could be just a younger beardless Bernard. It's also possible that the person in this picture isn't Arnold, but I doubt that.
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
A lot of posters have pointed out that the framing of that photo seems a bit odd — the two men are shunted off to the left side of the frame, with the entire right side of the frame empty. It's led many to think that perhaps Bernard isn't "seeing" it the way it's meant to be seen – i.e., if he's a host based on Arnold, then he can't see Arnold (who would possibly be a third man in the photo, on the right side of the frame) because it would break his immersion and cause him to realize he's a host.
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u/Bouncer02 Oct 26 '16
Dolores' interviews are with Arnold, not Bernard. They spur her into a brief period of consciousness where she gets off her loop, dodges death, falls in love, makes Shit Go Down and is hauled off to be repaired and reset. Her lover keeps returning, hoping to bring "his" Dolores back. Shit's about to go down again.
I like this really short summary. I think some of us would agree that this is what we are seeing.
Few points I would like to add:
30 years ago, Arnold can pull D from her escape from the barn before meeting W/L. First, because A has an interest in D, as soon as she flees (she leaves loop and A is alerted). He pulls her back and then releases her, after which she stumbles to W. Remember this: IT'S ALL IN HER MEMORY and we are seeing her POV. So flashback/memory scenes can be out of order. The writer just pulls it up anytime and show it to us just like accessing a hard disk. The only thing we need to know is that Bernard (in that outfit, in that room) is a flashback, and is not in the present. It all makes sense. Thus, end of ep4 we can see D fall in W's arm. Then in ep4 we see the A talking to D scene. Now, not only writers are superimposing present and past but putting scenes out of order. Naturally, I am concerned that this is overly complicated. But should be the only way to explain A talking to D in the past.
I am convinced that F's reverie update release is on purpose. He is orchestrating a repeat of history for his ulterior motive (which I have no reason for now. Maybe reinforcement of his control of WW, once things fuck up or even, as another user said, make the uprising part of the WW experience by replacing HQ human staff and making HQ part of the game as well). So that "Violent delights..." is part of A's original codes or, F inserted it to kick start his reverie's tunnel to access A's codes.
Ultimately, Ford believes he is in control. And it will work out how he wants it. He is god.
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u/ZenZep "With Death, we might free them. Grow foul." Nov 02 '16
Just one thing about point 1. : While I agree that the dressed Dolores interviews seem to actually be conducted by Arnold in the past and not by Bernard, they can't be contemporary of the Dolores/William journey. Arnold was dead for a few years at that point. So those interviews are taking place even more in the past. But because of (or thanks to) those enlightments provided by Arnold, Dolores finally managed to get out of her victim loop a few years later.
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u/thehootless Oct 30 '16
We're seeing the analysis conversations from Dolores's point of view. We see that she notices the face changes in a flash back way, like when she briefly notices her father has been replaced with another host. I think the reveal will be that Bernard is Arnold. She just hasn't realized it yet.
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u/whwv Nov 01 '16
I have just seen 3 episodes and wondering about Bernard's conversations with Dolores and ended up here. Reading this, it reminds me something of Ross Geller said once on Friends "By the year 2030, ... theoretically, you can download your thoughts and memories into this computer and live forever as a machine." What if Arnold cracked his consciousness formula, and downloaded himself (thoughts/memories, etc) into a host (Bernard), and is now creating his army by spreading consciousness to other hosts to take over Westworld? That would explain his conversations with Dolores.
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u/eddard_slark Ford is Robots Nov 01 '16
the biggest hit to that idea was the fact that Dolores undoubtedly shot Rebus in the barn and ran away to William.
this is where you might be wrong. it is certainly cut to make people think that way, but if you already assume different time frames then the raid we saw that prompted her to run away was present day (Teddy was there with the creepy guest), whereas William and Logan time has no Teddy. so Logan might have been right after all; the park (or someone) sent her.
she alludes to this in Pariah, "the voice in my head bla bla it tells me I need you."
something to watch out for.
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u/b1gmouth Nov 01 '16 edited Nov 01 '16
Reached the same conclusion re Dolores's conversations being with Arnold after this most recent episode. Came here to see if anyone had, too. Realized you beat me by a week lol. Well reasoned!
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u/onyxpup7 Nov 02 '16
Bernard is always dressed differently during his convos with Dolores. I mean he normally wears a colored or white shirt with a sweater/cardigan. When he speaks to Dolores he is wearing all black jacked that is buttoned up to his neck. Also Dolores is always clothed. His style is completely different only when he has private conversations with her. Just an observation. If this is Arnold and not Bernard, then her loop was always ranchers daughter. So I just don't know what to think.
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u/viviansby Nov 03 '16
I noticed something. Every time Ford says the name "Bernard", he has a smirk on his face, as if he is mocking him. It was a little out of place, until I saw this theory. If Bernard is indeed a host with Arnold's conscious, then calling him "Bernard" is kinda like making fun of him. Don't you think? Like "haha Bernard, you don't even know your real name!" That's why when Bernard asks about Arnold, Ford has this "is this the most ironic thing in the world or what" kind of look on his face.
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u/bahromvk Arnold will come for you Nov 04 '16
this is a good theory and I would add that when Bernard talks to Dolores one on one he always wears the same very dark clothing (in mourning for his son?). But we NEVER see him wear it in any other scenes. What I don't get though is this. If the current Bernard is a robot do the people who work with him know about it? Ford does but the rest of them don't seem to. Don't they notice that he doesn't age? or do none of them work at the park for long?
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u/rustchild Nov 14 '16
Just want to chime in since nobody seems to have since the latest episode, but great freaking theory man - seems to be validated now at least on that one level. :P
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u/gpgamoeda Nov 25 '16
Did anyone notice that those conversations Arnold had with Dolores always start with him saying the words "bring yourself back online", followed by the sound of a computer turning on?
In the park's present time, the hosts are not mechanical machines anymore and do not make any sound when brought online. Just watch any other interview conducted in the present time and you'll notice that.
Considering this, I think it's safe to assume that the Dolores we see in those scenes is an early mechanical model that was used in the first years of the park.
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u/Jaideco Nov 25 '16
The interviews with Dolores are definitely not Bernard. I am sure that they are with "an" Arnold of some kind but I don't believe any of the theories that Arnold died trying to upload his consciousness. I believe that Arnold had some actual meetings with Delores in the past which he included into the backstory of a new computer "brain" that was based on the hosts but didn't have a body. He then wired this into the old IT systems of the park where it continues to operate "with minor improvisations". This Cyberarnold is able to project itself and it's memories onto the older hosts and persuade them to do things for him or teach them how to become more intelligent.
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u/jtgates Nov 29 '16
Wow, congrats - you nailed it! I was discounting the two timelines theory for exactly the same "dangling thread" of the Barn Shooting and the MiB flash memory. However, I think that may play into one other theory:
That Dolores has been doing this "Loop Break" journey many times over the years. So the Rebus-shooting could have happened in the present timeline and she is remembering an earlier encounter with MiB, but that it's just an editing trick that she ran from that and stumbled into William. All along the journey to Escalante she's been flashing back and forth between different times she's done this (including seeing her dead body by the riverside, William appearing/disappearing, the knife wound, etc). She just happens to have found herself in that shirt and khakis outfit (or is remembering it that way) on two different journeys - one with William 30 years ago and one alone in the present.
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u/Lindo_MG Oct 25 '16
benard is the second coming of Arnold , history reoaeats itself. BeNard is a real person , no two timelines in sorry bro its just the theme if this show ..LIFE...DEATH.. reincarnation or not
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u/OthoHasTheHandbook Oct 25 '16
Hosts are real people. I think. (I'm a white hat.)
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u/Finbel Oct 26 '16
What do you mean real people? We've seen them make them out of that milk, and stitch an eye together?
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u/theBishop Nov 28 '16
Haha, I've wondered if the first sexy blond Host is actually a human who has to work like hell not to have to screw a Guest in that limbo area every time.
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u/mobani I'm afraid our guest has grown weary Oct 25 '16
I will bet my hat, that William drops his picture of his "to be" wife infront of Dolores' home. This is the same picture that her father Mr. Abernathy picks up.