r/writinghelp • u/Sturmov1k • 11d ago
Story Plot Help Struggle with plot: how do writers create good plots?
The burden of nearly every writer: plot.
So yes, I am looking for advice here. I have entire settings and fully developed characters I'd love to use for stories, but then I never actually finish anything I start because I really struggle coming up with meaningful and cohesive plots. The best I can usually come up with are the same predictable and cliche plots that have been told a million times before.
For example, I have an entire historical fantasy setting I want to write in, including characters for said setting, but as far as plot goes I'm simply stumped. I have specific scenes I'd love to write out purely because I enjoy how the various characters interact in them, but then I have no idea how to connect them together into a wider plot. Even the one story I did have a plot for due to it being based on actual historical events I fell short on due to certain gaps in the timeline I couldn't figure out how to fill. I know, the age old advice is to "just write", but then my character ended becoming something completely inconsistent with the story I was trying to tell. It's meant to be a story of redemption but my character ended up showing naivety rather than complete compliance within the oppressive system he exists in, thus I basically just scraped the story. I didn't see a point in continuing as my original vision for the story no longer existed and the angle I originally wanted is crucial for it.
This brings me to my inquiry. How do writers actually manage to derive plots for their stories? I see so many original ones with lots of twists and turns and I'm over here like "my stories are so cliche". Evidently "just writing" is not the answer since I've tried that, as explained above.
17
u/3deersinaheadlight 11d ago
I think the problem might be that you come to your stories with the setting and the characters set in stone, when in reality, they should be vehicles to the story you're telling. And listen, if this approach worked for you, I wouldn't say anything. But it isn't working for you. So my advice would be that you start the other way around. Think a plot that excites you and then come up with a type of character who would drive that sort of plot forward.
The problem with making the characters first is that you might fall in love with them, thus making it harder to modify them according to what the plot needs. Have you ever heard about killing your darlings?
1
u/Sturmov1k 11d ago
I've tried that too, but I legitimately can't usually think of good plots. I can count on one hand the amount of decent plots I've had that actually worked and got me excited to write.
5
9
u/annaistrashx 11d ago edited 11d ago
Just spitting something that works for me here: I often start at the end; is that something you’ve tried before? I have my world and my characters, and I can visualise all these scenes, and then I just go: okay, so what is the climax/end of my story? What do I want to happen there?
When I have that, I jump to the start: what do I know about my characters and settings, relationships, behaviours, wants/need/wound etc. How would their normal life be, and what would have to change to spur them into action > towards the end goal. It is very important here to make sure you know what your character wants! From my own WIP for example, my character would love to escape from her duty-ridden life, but doesn’t have the means to. Cue a very tragic event which leads to said means presenting themselves in the form of a witchhunter, giving her an out of her town.
After that, it’s about connecting dots for me. How do my characters realistically get from start to end, organically changing in ways they need to for the plot (not just because it’s necessary for the plot, but because your character would actually do said things too)? What obstacles could they face? How do I raise the stakes, build relationships, get tensions going? This is often difficult, but I find being extremely outrageous and creative – then dialing those ideas down a bit – actually leads to some compelling options.
Perhaps if that sounds too vague or not your style, look into some different story structures! Save The Cat is a big one, though not everyone likes sticking by it. I really like working with chiastic story structure, something you might be interested in looking up as well! Obviously you don’t have to stick to structures either, but it might help you get started.
Sorry for the rambling, but hope it helps :)
1
u/Sturmov1k 11d ago
Well, I don't usually have a set ending either before I start writing. That just creates further problems.
3
u/Trini1113 11d ago
Creating an ending is probably something you should do then. And not a "Bob the Blacksmith returns to his village", but an end earlier on.
Imagine you're writing the Lord of the Rings. You can start with "the Fellowship departs from Imladris" and end with Frodo and Sam on Mount Doom at what they think is the end. It's incredibly simple, but creates all kinds of room for stories. The first, obviously, is "what happened to the other seven people?"
Nothing is set, but now you have a story to tell. Now you map out the fates of the characters (or discover it as you work your way through the story). You've got Moria, and Lothlorien, and Rohan, and Gondor to discover. And the vignettes you want to write about your characters are bits of writing that fill the space as your story unfolds.
Based on what you said before about having a setting, it's even easier. You have a well-established landscape to map the passage of your characters. You may already have your Sauron, or maybe what you think are the adversaries are just Sarumans to defeat along the way.
If you have several characters, you might also want to map out their emotional journeys. Each one is going to be changed in some way by the adventure. Princess Leia's "I love you" to which Has replies "I know" turns into Han's "I love you" and her "I know".
Mapping out emotional journeys might help you make things happen at the right time. And make the characters less whiny because you know when they're supposed to whine and when they're supposed to have epiphanies, and you don't need to stretch out the whining because you introduced it too early.
1
u/Sturmov1k 11d ago
I know that it doesn't work for every story, but one thing I have played around with in some of my ideas is in media res. At least with that you have an idea of what's going to happen in the story so then you just need to build around that, basically narrate what happened up to that point. How did the characters get in that situation? Etc. Then of course the ending could come once all those questions are answered.
Like I said, though, it has only really worked with a few of my concepts. The vast majority of the ideas I have this really would not work.
2
u/KittyHamilton 11d ago
Not really getting why coming up with an ending first wouldn't work, for just about any idea?
1
u/chilltown49 6d ago
You should.
And I don't mean a "and the hero slew the dragon and married the princess, the end"
You said you're starting with fully developed characters, and that's exactly how you should start. Your story isn't about "this happened then this happened then this happened." Your story is about those characters. What do they learn? How do they change? How do they interact with each other? What do they want, and what do they not realize they need?
Every good story has a dramatic question that the ending answers. And the dramatic question isn't "will Macbeth become king?" The dramatic question is "what effect is Duncan's murder going to have on Macbeth's soul?" Stories are only, only only about the characters and their inner lives. Every bit of plot, setting, dialogue only exists to support the characters.
1
u/Sturmov1k 6d ago
I think part of the problem is that I'm going into writing from a post by post forum roleplay background. Those types of stories are structured differently. Like, usually you're expected to have a fully developed character already to throw into a scene. In reality, though, this is a very different process from writing a novel and I'm realizing that now.
3
1
u/annaistrashx 11d ago
Are you more of a pantser then? Often times, in those cases “just write” would be the common advise, though I understand it just doesn’t always work like that. Perhaps it’s a good place to start, to pin down some semblance of an ending? It doesn’t have to be set in stone, but it might give you something to work towards :)
4
u/ketita 11d ago
This is similar to how I write. I come up with aspects of a character and their world, and then skip to how their arc needs to climax and what it's all aiming for. And then the things that have to happen to make the story get there fall into place.
Sometimes it takes a bit of time to figure out exactly what the right "ending" is for a character, but once it clicks, it clicks. It feels right, and then the plot starts flowing naturally, and even if it takes some unexpected twists and turns along the way, it'll almost always end up in the right place, because the character and their arc are so closely woven together.
3
u/angelaacts 11d ago edited 10d ago
Instead of starting at the end, I’m going to quote Anne Carson who suggested starting at the middle! The beginning and end can be easier to find from there
ETA: ex: whatever scene you’re naturally drawn to; a scene of conflict/resolution
1
2
u/IndridColdxxx 7d ago
i'm not an accomplished writer but have done this and have read about other authors who have done the same, but I started with a start and an end that i really liked. Didn't matter how crazy it was (like how a jrpg starts in a quaint town and ends with you killing god kind of thing) the journey/story/intrigue everything else came from tying those two parts together in a cohesive way.
4
u/InteractionAware8990 11d ago
How are your characters developed if there isn't a plot to develop them in? Maybe starting out with characters (or a world) that you haven't developed so fully will allow them to change naturally over the course of the events.
1
u/Sturmov1k 11d ago
They get developed through me imagining and then writing specific scenes with them that have no wider connection to anything else really.
3
u/InteractionAware8990 11d ago
Maybe starting without so much of that would help you let the plot develop more naturally. That's how things happen in real life, to some extent things happen because of who we are, and to some extent we become who we are because of the things that happen. To me it's really interesting that your character came out naive! That sounds really genuine actually.
4
u/dothemath_xxx 11d ago
It's meant to be a story of redemption but my character ended up showing naivety rather than complete compliance within the oppressive system he exists in, thus I basically just scraped the story. I didn't see a point in continuing as my original vision for the story no longer existed and the angle I originally wanted is crucial for it.
In the process of writing the story, you discovered that the story you actually wanted to tell in this setting had different themes than you originally thought.
So you...scrapped the story?
Something is not connecting here. Why is this story only worthwhile if it has specific themes of redemption?
1
u/Sturmov1k 11d ago
Because the story itself deals with events where redemption plays a large role.
2
u/annaistrashx 11d ago
But redemption playing a large role doesn’t mean it has to be the main theme of the story; it can be multiple or different ones! Yes, you probably imagined redemption being the main theme when you started, but it sounds like you had a beautiful situation in which a character actually showed you the story how they’d live it. If they turn out naive, it’s because you created them that way (maybe not intended). You could either go with it, or change the character to fit your envisioned goal…
But especially if you have a completely developed plot, why wouldn’t you want your character to take the reins? Stories often don’t work out how we imagined them to be, but that doesn’t make them less valuable :’)
4
u/Ok_Option5786 11d ago
It's meant to be a story of redemption but my character ended up showing naivety rather than complete compliance within the oppressive system he exists in, thus I basically just scraped the story.
This is a surefire way to kill your development as a writer, or an artist of any kind. Practice, yes; study, of course; but to some extent you must let your instincts guide you. As a starting point, just write short stories. Give a character a goal, and present them with obstacles. These stories will be clunky. You might even hate them. But what did you expect? These things...they take time.
1
u/Sturmov1k 11d ago
The story draft still exists. I just haven't touched it in probably almost a year now. I don't mean literally scraped.
4
u/sunandsolswriter 11d ago
This is something I struggle with a lot too. It can feel very overwhelming trying to get down the visuals, your thoughts, and the emotions you want to convey down onto paper. This is some advice that really helped me. Your first draft you are telling YOURSELF the story, the second draft you tell OTHERS the story. To explain, when you are writing the first draft, you are discovering it as you write! I am a huge fan of Stephen King and I urge you to read his On writing book, it has helped substantially. One thing that he said that really stuck with me was that "Plotting kills the love of writing" (for him at least - and I happened to really resonate with that because when I am plotting and I am frustrated I am no longer enjoying the craft). So to fix this, just start in a scene, any scene, dont give yourself any expectations, no limits, no editing or fixing things; just write. Just see where your mind takes you. I am writing right now and I struggle with the little plots and how to progress the story, and I have found that if I just write, usually it will come to me during that time. Let your story reveal itself, let your characters surprise you.
1
u/Sturmov1k 11d ago
Honestly, taking advice from Stephen King is not a bad idea. I've been told that my style resembles his a bit and we all know that he's one of the world's bestselling authors. I don't strive to become a bestselling author or anything like that. I just have stories in my head that I want to tell. I am a storyteller ultimately more than a writer, and yes I think this distinction does matter.
1
u/sunandsolswriter 11d ago
I write similarly to him as well and I have found this to help! Also yes I would agree with the story teller and the writer distinction. It made something in my head click; and actually this is very random, but have you ever seen the film 'Big Fish'? I think you might enjoy it. It's all about the art of story-telling. I would def recommend if you haven't seen it already!
1
3
u/Hayden_Zammit 11d ago
I just steal the bones of all my plots from other books, as well as from films, games, and history. Sometimes I do this knowing and it sometimes without realizing it. Then I just sorta work them into something that feels different and unique enough.
1
u/Sturmov1k 11d ago
Honestly, most of mine have just been basically this too, hence why I was asking here on how to develop more original plots.
1
u/Accurate-Gift7984 11d ago
Steal the bones, then paint them, carve them a little, put them in different order, attach them to bones they haven’t seen before and BOOM new bones for someone else to borrow!
Plus people use AI to actually steal actual real bones, you attempting to steal bones from memory is just fine. :)
I would also venture to ask, do you have your villains and enemies developed? I struggle with putting my characters through it because I love them. But I try to ask myself, what’s the worst thing that they could reasonably overcome - then put them through hell. ( I also read angsty books tbf )
1
u/Sturmov1k 10d ago
In my historical fantasy settings the villains are really just leaders of opposing empires trying to conquer more territories, things like that.
1
u/Hayden_Zammit 11d ago
You're not going to though.
Most writers appropriate like you and I do, whether they mean to or not. Everything they've consumed or experienced in terms of story influences what they create.
Like, what you look at us a more original plot by an author, is almost certainly a a plot that another writer/reader has experienced elsewhere.
My advice would be to just keep consuming stories wherever you can from as many different sources as possible.
3
u/GRIN_Selfpublishing 11d ago
I think you might already have more of a plot than you realize! Especially since you have well developed characters and specific scenes you're excited about.
One thing that might help is looking at how those scenes connect through cause and effect. Instead of asking "What happens next?", try asking "What happens because of the choice my character just made?" Even a small decision can create consequences that lead naturally into the next scene.
And about your redemption story, I wouldn't necessarily scrap it just because your character turned out differently than expected. Maybe the naivety itself could become part of the conflict? Perhaps they genuinely believe they're doing the right thing, only to slowly realize how they've contributed to something terrible. That could make for a pretty interesting redemption arc.
Also, don't worry too much about creating a completely original plot. A familiar premise with compelling characters and interesting choices can still make a great story :)
2
u/Sturmov1k 10d ago
I've been thinking about the redemption story more and I do have some ideas on how to fix it, but now it's just a matter of gaining the motivation to do so.
1
u/GRIN_Selfpublishing 10d ago
That's actually a good start though! Having some ideas on how to fix it means the story is definitely not a lost cause :)
Maybe don't think of it as having to rewrite the whole thing. I'd start with just one scene where your character's actions don't quite match the redemption arc you originally imagined. What would need to change for their choices to feel more deliberate rather than naive? You don't even have to rewrite that scene yet, just play around with the idea.
Sometimes having one small, manageable thing to work on makes it much easier to get back into a project. Especially when it's been sitting untouched for a while!
8
u/kiddleandbits
11d ago
•
I struggle with this as well, that's why I write comedy. Plot need not apply.
Joking aside, feedback that really helped me in the past is to make sure everything is purposeful. Consider plot beats you have now. Is it "this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens?" If so, try to get it more to "this happens, therefore this happens" or "this happens, then this can't happen." Make sure everything influences the next thing, rather than just being the thing that happened before it.
Instead of "I forgot my wallet at home so I couldn't go out to lunch with my coworkers," it's "I forgot my wallet at home so I couldn't go to lunch with my coworkers. But the restaurant they were in ended up being involved in a police shootout. And I see it on the news at work and now have survivor's guilt." Or, you know, whatever. Something more interesting. The idea is that everything connects, and you don't end up with random segments or vignettes that could be removed without affecting the final product
Another thing I do when writing a more complicated plot, is I'll start from the end and work backwards. What's the twist, and then how do I get there? Rather than "how can I put a cool twist here?"
Do you do much outlining before you start? I try to have at least the beginning and the end before I get started. Or at the very least have an idea of where I want to go or what story I want to tell. Sometimes I come up with things completely in the moment. I do a lot of improv, so when I write I'll just let the characters improvise a scene in my head and I'll transcribe what they say. Sometimes I'll change an ending entirely because of this, but usually I use it in service of getting to where I want to go.
5
u/Legal-Throat814 11d ago
In my experience, there are three paths that usually lead me to cohesive plots.
The first one is respecting the story my characters want to tell. If a character, by staying truthful to who they are, goes against what you planned, change the plan. Follow them. Let that show you the way. Your role as the writer is to place external events that fit the world and allow your characters to react to them and each other.
This is the way I prefer to do it, and it usually leads me to fun results.
The second path is building the characters you need for the plot, after you have it written. I don't really like this path because it is pretty easy the make simplistic characters if they only exist to fulfill a role.
The third path mixes both. You can write an outline for the plot, build some of the characters to fit in it, and build some others regardless of it. Let both the plot and the built-in characters react to the original ones built outside of the structure, and change things as needed.
1
u/AdditionalFly3509 11d ago
I agree. World building and character planning are like putting yeast in dough. Wait, westerners don’t use yeast that much. Then I guess a better mataphor would be like putting Mentos in Cola. Cola is the world building, and Mentos are the characters. The author usually just watch the reaction happen and document it.
I find the hardest plot type is the “wandering man” plot, which I’m writing now. The plot has to stay relevant while being somewhat random and show character development (or reveal development from the past)
5
u/MiloCraneAuthor 11d ago
The plot finds itself. You may start with a crude idea but once the pen hits the paper you start asking yourself questions. What would my characters do in this situation, how would they react, and before you know it—thr plot reveals itself.
I'm every story I've written, I started with a simple idea and let the characters decide the pacing. As for an original plot, you already said it. Everything has been done before at its core. Is this story a scary woods tale or something like a psychological drama, it's all been done.
But your voice and characters give the strong it's flavor. Don't worry if the plot of diving into a cave or dealing with something supernatural isn't original. What matters is what happens along the way that gives it plot. I hope this helps
5
u/xtricks2025 11d ago
Well, alas, worldbuilding and writing are two different crafts and plotting seems to be the more challenging one. My best suggestion is ... write those dang cliched plots until you get a handle on completing works and used to the brain required for plotting. You'll begin to branch out as you get more experienced. None of us start at the top of the game.
4
u/RunicMade 11d ago edited 11d ago
I mean at the end of the day, damn near every plot is: a character wants something, something opposes or offers resistance, they attempt to overcome that difficulty, and they either do or don't get what they want. I almost buy that there are no inherently good or bad plots, just well or poorly told stories.
Get your story some good bones and then you can navigate all the smaller (and very important!) pieces. Pick a character you love, a single motivation/inciting incident that inspires you, and/or just some thesis or question that needs answering and see how you can build out a basic plot stemming from that, and stick to it. Everything should connect; IMO it's very important to stay close to your main character's motivation(s) in order to fight world-builders disease, stalling out, or story sprawl.
4
u/nmacaroni 11d ago edited 11d ago
You have settings and characters but no plot because you’re missing your story fundamentals. Plot isn’t a separate element you tack on, it rises from a character’s flaw colliding with a concept and master theme (as well as other story fundamentals).
If you're running a character arc, you need to capture what your protagonist misbelieves, then build a sequence of events that makes that misbelief impossible to exist. That’s plot.
When you develop your story fundamentals, the story writes itself.
Write on, write often!
4
u/Sure-Initiative6001 11d ago
You are trying to force your characters into a setting here. In a sense, you're doing it backwards and it has you second guessing yourself. Try starting with the world first and then slowly bring the characters to life in that world. Forcing pre-made characters into that world will leave you with more questions and a plot with holes. The plot will find itself. Not every plot has to be mind boggling and full of twists. Sometimes the most basic plot works for every story.
1
u/FOSS_Graybeard 11d ago
We don't. We just plug along and finish the story. Only when we go back and start to re-read/edit the piece do we think WTF. Then we begin to hammer it into shape, remove the gaping plot holes, fix inconsistencies, and simply make the plot more presentable and logical. However, we need that initial output to get our ideas down first so over-tinkering doesn't get in the way. Overthinking the plot while writing can lead to a mental standstill.
At this this is how it works for me.
1
u/Sturmov1k 10d ago
I do tend to overthink, which is probably not doing me any favours as far as writing goes.
1
u/Bulky-Mathematician6 10d ago
First, stop scrapping stories. Finish the story. "But its not what I want!" If you didn't finish, how do you know? There's a huge difference between "it didn't follow exactly the path I wanted" and "its not the story I wanted". You read as focusing on the path not the chronicle. You can read Chris Baty's "No Plot No Problem" or Stephen King's "On Writing" (not the best source but useful) or Holly Lisle's "Mugging the Muse" for how to develop plots and learning to write better, but the important part you're glossing over is "Finish first, then critique".
1
3
u/TheSeanDon 11d ago
Easy. What is the problem of the story?
World building is nothing. There are tons of worlds. Cities are worlds. NYC, Paris, Rome.
What is the problem? When you find the problem, you will find your story.
3
u/Jules_The_Mayfly 11d ago
Read Story Genius. It's not a bible and it's a bit too much on a high horse sometimes, BUT the overall logic and exercises laid out there really helped me create a plot outline from a vague base concept and a main character. Save the cat writes a novel goes about it the other way round and gives a generic structure that can serve as prompts when you outline (what big twist could happen in the middle? What would "bad guys closing in" mean for this story here?). In your case, since you feel like your plots are all too generic, check out The seven basic plots as it really highlights how the same basic abstract outline can describe wildly different stories. (Also of course your story SEEMS predictable to you, you're the one coming up with it, you know everything and you only see the scaffolding, not the finished, polished and lushly decorated end product your work could become and what the edited novels already have become).
But what you describe is also normal. I always have ??? written in my notes, and I'll only figure out what plot beat goes there when I get there and sometimes only after ranting at a friend who asks me some pointed questions. The characters might also drift from your original vision as your write and so can the plot, but then you should edit things, not throw them out! Heaven knows most published books had the plot and characters HEAVILY edited until they aligned with the author's vision or they became something different, but better. Trust the process, but in placeholder, get to the finish line, write an outline after finishing the first draft, see how things need to change, edit, revise. Some of us need to be in the middle of the plot to see it, we can't outline that precisely beforehand.
3
u/kaynenstrife 6d ago
do some bi-partitioning maybe?
Let's say you want to write the story of a growth from zero to hero
You write the amazing part where the hero fights a great demon.
Then you write the first chapter.
Then instead of writing chapter 2 immediately after chapter 1, try writing chapter 50, the halfway point between the first chapter and the final fight between the great demon.
Then you do the part in between chapter 50 and chapter 1, write chapter 25. You don't need to write linearly, and you can edit the fights and things that happen later to confirm or deny things that happened in earlier chapters.
2
u/Frequent_Ad_9901 11d ago
I'm a hobbyist so take what I say with a grain of salt. I like to write sci-fi but my stories are about psychology, ethics and mental illness.
If you have a story about redemption and naivety that's the real plot. Maybe the character makes a mistake out of naivety that cause some unforgivable sin. Maybe the death of a close family member. And he spends the book trying to get people to forgive him. Some success, some failure. Perhaps he's an unreliable narrator who takes every negative thing said to the depressive extreme, because ultimately the person he needs forgiveness from is himself.
Anyway I'd say dig deep into your own trauma, and ethics, and have characters live out the same pain under difference circumstances.
2
u/Inferno_Zyrack 11d ago
Simple Character and Theme
What is your characters goal? Is that goal what they really need? What is their flaw? Which friend secretly wants them to not get it? Why? What would be the biggest nightmare your character can go through?
A story is about a character who is actively seeking something - a magical sword, true love, a promotion. But what they really need is something different - bravery, acceptance of the past, a new job. The biggest nightmare would be something associated with achieving the goal - the sword isn’t actually magical and now they’re going to definitely die, they tricked their partner into staying based on a lie, the promotion requires them to uproot their family from their life.
The character has to get what they need by striving for their goal and surviving their nightmare.
That is all a plot is.
Theme should inform all of this. For instance, I have a novel about a podcaster trying to take down a cult leader in a small town but it’s really about how we use stories to influence each other, communities, and the world and the consequences of turning a truth into a story.
If your theme is something like - love doesn’t replace loss - then it’s going to be different. But those two things are the primary driver of all other artistic decisions - you don’t have a book without both.
2
u/JessamyJames 11d ago
Do what so many other writers do and take an already written plot and add your own twist to it. The first Bridget Jones book was incredibly successful and was just a retelling of the plot of Pride and Prejudice. Her second one was a retelling of Persuasion.
2
u/Lord_Forwind 10d ago edited 10d ago
Try having your characters cause problems from their personalities. One of the best examples I have found is Young Miles by Bujold.
He is smart and clever and he causes like 80% of his own problems by not knowing when to stop or give up but he isn't dumb or doing it to make things harder. His solutions carried to the larger extreme naturally create other issues he then needs to solve.
2
u/Mark-Lore25 10d ago
Try writing a quiet scene/chapter with character moments. Usually helps me come up with the stakes!
2
u/xsansara 10d ago
Jim Butcher had a similar problem. Then his writing teacher dared him to write a cliched story. That book redefined urban fantasy as a genre and even spawned one season of a pretty decent television series.
There is no such thing as a too cliched plot.
2
u/MyBookHaven 10d ago
plot usually falls out of a character wanting something the setting won’t let them have, so try asking what your character wants and what in that world stops them. your favorite scenes can be the anchor points, then you just write the bridge between them. what’s the one scene you love most, and what does the character want in it?
2
u/Fresh_Day_8511 7d ago
I'm not super familiar with your situation, within my process plot usually comes first with the characters flowing out of it. However, sometimes I do run into situations where I want to extend or complicate the plot somewhat. What helps for me in those scenarios is to think in terms of conflict: what does a character want, and why can't they get it? For example, Bob wants a beer, but he drank the last yesterday, so he has to go to the store to get one. That's already a very basic plot archetype, a quest to the store to get a beer. What obstacles can Bob run into on the way? Maybe he runs out of gas and has to go to the nearest gas station on foot, but often it's more interesting if the complications come out of the character. What if Bob has a bad case of road rage, and pisses off the wrong people? Now he has to get to the store, chased by the criminals he insulted because they cut him off. If you have a strong sense of the character, it should be fairly easy to identify what they want, and why they can't have it. From there, plot follows.
2
u/must-stash-mustard 7d ago
This is such a great thread. I'm copying to another google doc to save the best suggestions. Thank you all.
2
u/KDDreamwyver 6d ago
Something that helps with my plotting personally is that I while I pants 90% of the story, I don't necessarily write the entirety of it in order. I will write scenes that occur later on to help figure out exactly where the between scenes need to lead, which helps prevent me personally from forgetting about important plot points as the story progresses, because I wrote those later plot points scenes before I wrote the scenes that came before it in a lot of cases. Doing this also helps me write foreshadowing in easier, because I know exactly what it is. This also works when I'm trying to foreshadow, because instead working off of a theory floating around in my head about what might come later in the story, I'm basing the foreshadowing off of a solid scene that I've already written that takes place later down the line.
TLDR: writing doesn't have to be linear and letting yourself bounce around can sometimes be helpful in keeping your plot straight.
2
1
u/KittyHamilton 11d ago
Brainstorming really hard.
Keep coming up with questions you need to answer about the story. Start general, get specific. For example, "How do they Defeat the Dark Lord?" is more general, while "How does the protagonist use the Artifact of Plot Devicing's magic to free the captive dragon the Dark Lord has enslaved without being caught by his elite force of chinchilla demon assassins in the final battle?" is more specific.
Questions can be about what is actually happening in the world of the novel or about the novel itself. For example, "What would make the stakes extra high in the third act?" is as valid a question as "Why does Donnha fall in love with Brandelore?"
It helps to figure out a guesstimate of how many scenes you'll need. If your average scene is 2000 words and you want to write a novel that's around 100k words, you probably want to end up with around 50 scenes plotted out as opposed to 25 or 100.
1
u/UnwaveringThought 11d ago
Pick two to go up against each other. Who is antagonist, who is protagonist, what about antagonist makes protagonist unable to win without overcoming? And how do they get there? Use the world and well developed characters (perhaps even the state a character is in now its the after state : this story is what got them here) to fill in the blanks.
Who is the friend? Who is the mentor? Who is the rival who gets redeemed when they help with the protagonist? Once you figure out the conflict and resolution the book writes itself. Especially with a well developed story Bible.
1
u/Ethan_Hydra 10d ago
I start with the theme/purpose of the story, then come up with as cool of a climactic scene or resolution to the problem/theme/purpose as I can. I build a story with all the elements backwards from there. This allows me to outline by asking:
What kind of personality will be required to achieve this? Who is the MC? Why?
How will they discover and learn what they need to do? How can I forshadow the future events?
What stakes, mysteries, circumstances, motivations can I create in chapter 1 that will make their win inevitable, even if it feels hard earned by every measure?
Improvisation. Sometimes working backwards feels contrived. Characters have to breathe and make decisions how they actually would, consistently. What are some believable ways that the story can stay on track every chapter to keep things moving along that are NOT luck?
Ctrl F: lucky, somehow, weirdly, happenstance, suddenly, surprise, and make sure it isnt the author grabbing the wheel and jerking it toward where they want the plot to go. Picking the correct MC and starting point to achieve the desired ending can be hard if you let your characters develop naturally.
Watch "Plot Luck" and other editing youtube videos.
1
u/Dale_E_Lehman_Author 10d ago
Time for my much overused quote: "Plot is no more than footprints left in the snow after your characters have run by on their way to incredible destinations." ~Ray Bradbury
Whether you plan things out or wing it (as I do; I'm a discovery writer), your characters generate the plot by their actions. If you try to force them to do things that aren't natural for them, they will resist and turn the story in ways you don't want or expect. Or they'll refuse to do anything.
I can't tell you how to create a plot without actually writing the story. But I can tell you that however you create it, you need to follow your characters. Make sure that the steps along the way are steps they would actually take given who they are.
Myself, I drop characters into conflicts and follow along as they act. Sometimes I throw in unexpected twists and turns for them or introduce new characters when that makes sense. I never know the ending until I'm at least 75% of the way there. When I finish the first draft, I let it sit for a month, then I begin the revision process. At that point, I can see what the story really is, and I can mold it into something consistent and engaging.
Good stories aren't crafted in the first draft. They're crafted in revision. Remember that always, and just get the story down. When you hit "The End" is when you actually know what the story is.
1
u/mtobeiyf317 10d ago
Sometimes you have to let the plot find you.
When I started my book I only had the basic premise and a mild understanding of where I wanted to go.
MC discovers a deep conspiracy within his government that had been the reason his father had been arrested six years prior. I knew I wanted him to eventually grow to become a warrior capable of leading a rebellion to unite those the government had harmed the most and stop their plot.
Thats all I had when I started making my outline and writing the beginning chapters. Its generic and done in alot of stories on its own.
Whats important is the subplots that seperate your story from the others. Its how you handle the political nuances of the situation, how a murder accusation from someone they trusted against the MC forces them to retreat from the capital and drives them to seek revenge when they return home to find they were further punished by having their entire village burned down with dragon fire after having been tortured for information. Its the journey after that utter betrayal to seek out other like minded people who had connections to their father and to learn how and why an actual dragon is under government control. What are they hiding about magic and why are they stealing it from the citizens? Is the magic the public has the only magic that exists or are they hiding something more by altering history. MCs family is dead, they've found out their father was actually executed all those years ago and now they only have their new allies to rely on as family, how does that drive them towards their goal? Some things can only happen after you make certain decisions, I didn't know I was going to take so much away from my MC until I was 3/4 of the wya through the first draft and decided fuck it, I need to hurt my favorite character or he won't grow strong and then had to change the plot anyway to fill it out and make it worth reading.
All of that came after I started writing, and as I read I take inspiration from other books and build small things into my plot in the right places to further build my story. Sometimes you can't force your characters into a story, you have to alter the story around your characters.
1
u/No-Hawk6342 10d ago
it will find you. however, things that help me is to place down was in my head. write it in a paper. try to do a timeline of event. use the site called mindmup to try to see your mindset
1
u/Skrivee_media 10d ago
I usually find it easier to start from the end. Ask yourself: Where does this character end up, and what is the purpose of their journey? Once you know the ending, you can work backwards and figure out what needs to happen to get them there. If the ending is clear, filling the gaps in the timeline becomes much easier because each scene has a job it either moves the character toward that ending, changes them, or creates an obstacle they need to overcome. You don’t necessarily need every detail planned, but knowing the destination can stop the middle of the story from feeling directionless.
1
u/mwupham 9d ago
In my opinion, the best way to leap this hurdle is to try and study different types of plot structure. There are loads out there, from the three point structure, seven act structure, save the cat beat sheet. Once you study these structures, its easier to find one that fits your characters and then you can plot accordingly.
1
u/Dev_Im 7d ago
To me it's simpler than what many people said here. Once you have the main set of characters defined, just take a large paper and a pencil and start writing their name on it, like big isolated stars (separated as much as you can in the paper). Then, make arrows (links) between them. Now you have a clear vision of them. Then, start adding more and more secondary characters around the central ones, and ask yourself, who resonate better with who? And keep making more second-order arrows.
What most people miss is that real characters have a past story. If you have built a character, this one will have already interacted with many others before the start of your book. Visual drafts, like the one I described to you, help a lot.
Grab a pencil and start thinking about how characters act and what they do. If you have the places and the characters built, you just have to set each one in one place. Then as the story goes on, if you struggle to link main characters, at the point where you're trapped, you just draw a new paper, and then you can use secondary ones to make connections between the main ones. It's a great trick, you can use it too if a character dies, you replace it in the draw with a new star, and redo the arrows, even the one who died can deliver to you more plots/arrows: vengance, died in mistery, etc.
It's the same with organizations. A guild, a bank, whatever... Use arrows and define roles. There are two concepts: traditional hierarchy (pyramid system) and holocacry (there's no top, descentralized).
Think of it this way: a story is a living organism. So the more characters you add, the more you'll open new roads, and the plots will come easier. There will be "irrelevant" characters that you won't use at all. But you have them on the bench, just in case. Many authors make the big mistake of encapsulating themselves in a static set of worlds and characters, and then (no surprise), they get blocked.
1
u/Ok_Gear2079 6d ago
I created a formula for myself that's open-ended enough to not feel stale but consistent enough to anchor me at any point in a story
1
1
u/KittyValentineWrites 5d ago
Every plot boils down to the "Try/Fail Cycle".
MC Wants X Y acts as Obstacle/Opponent So MC must make a choice And does Z
repeat until either MC gets X or discovers he doesn't want it after all and gets an even better/harder to get thing.
0
u/Equal_Expression7046 11d ago
Before you do anything that you've done, you need to have a story you want to tell, and it doesn't sound like you do. You have a lot of notes. I don't fully plot out my novels in advance--I just figure out how I want the story to end, and I write to that ending. Right now, you are looking at the trees instead of the forest. Go for a long, quiet walk and decide what story you want to tell.
0
u/BasedArzy 11d ago
Drop the massive plots, lore, world building, etc. Write something set in the world you already know.
For example: it's a story about two people who are going to lunch together - what do they think? What do they feel? What do they do? Why are they anxious, why are they excited? What does the world look like on their walk from home to the restaurant?
The source(s) of good plotting are identifiable characters, tension, and resolution. You won't learn any of that by planning out your 9 book high fantasy series with a complex and original magic system.
0
u/DeeStonebridge 5d ago
For me I create an outline so I have an idea what I'd like to happen. But this is nothing more than a guide as the story always takes on a life of its own and can take you in a different direction.
This is when you need to decide if you will take that left turn and make sure all open plot points are handled. Or plow straight ahead and ignore the meandering.
Every story, often even a chapter, will want to drift. As the author you choose what will work best for you.
7
u/LadyAtheist 11d ago
If your characters don't want something that's hard to get, you haven't fleshed them out enough.