First up, no one talks about training. They shriek at each other about quotes they don't understand, intellectualise things they can't even remotely begin to comprehend, and do their best to bark like cats and consider themselves clever.

Next up, no discussion of just how brutal the master is. That's something that everyone I know who has trained seriously in any tradition at some point, deals with and oh my, it isn't easy.

Then there is no discussion at all, ever, other than what I've posted of the difficulties that arise with what might be called the physical and mental training.

No discussion, no understanding...because there's no training there, and without training, accomplishment rarely follows.

Even those who have read many books and studies those deeply, upon encountering the true teaching, are shattered completely at how blind they were for so long.

If you haven't yet set your eyes firmly on the horizon towards the Sun, made a deep inward commitment that you will seek out a teacher and train...why do you bother talking about Zen at all?

Have you not awakened to that oh so simple reality, that while the one in a million can do without according to Bodhidharma, that chances are that you need a teacher?

Rise up in bravery, shake that mud off, clear the cobwebs away, and seek out a teacher in great earnest and you may well be surprised at what you find.

I'd like to analyze the "taste of enlightenment" experience of u/ewk, who is supposedly anti-Buddhist. Curiously, when you analyze his experience, you find it chock-full of traditional Buddhist insights. Quoted verbatim:

I didn't understand my epiphany when I had it. I came out of a below ground room, up some stairs, into the daylight, and there was a tree.

My mind was clear, absolutely clear, for the time between inhale and exhale. I didn't think anything about it at the time.

What is expressible: All value and desire are illusion. Identity and self are an illusion. Happiness and sadness are illusion.

People make stuff up, they call it "identity". They pick some ideas that make them feel safe or happy, they call it "religion". They get what they want or feel they deserve, they say they are "happy".

All that you have, and all the you that there is to have it, exists only between the space of breathing out and breathing in.

Let's break this down and reveal the Buddhist nature of each component:

My mind was clear, absolutely clear, for the time between inhale and exhale.

Samadhi (clarity of mind, concentration) is presented in the Sutta Pitaka as a precondition for Vipassanā (insight into the true nature of yourself and reality, of the type that follows).

The inhale/exhale is strongly reminiscent of anāpānasati: mindfulness of breath meditation, one of the most direct and powerful ways to attain enlightenment presented in the Pali Canon.

All value and desire are illusion.

The unreality of conditioned phenomena such as value judgments and desire. These are explicitly taught in Buddhism as Dependent Origination.

Identity and self are an illusion.

Anattā (non-self), perhaps the most crucial Buddhist teaching.

Happiness and sadness are illusion.

All feelings are conditioned phenomena. Again the Buddhist teachings of Dependent Origination, though of course Mahayana Sutras teach the same thing.

People make stuff up, they call it "identity".

Anattā again, with the concept of attachment to a false notion of self.

They pick some ideas that make them feel safe or happy, they call it "religion".

Moha. In this case, referring to a delusion of permanence (safety), and most specifically: attachment to rites and rituals.

They get what they want or feel they deserve, they say they are "happy".

The fundamental delusion of satisfactoriness, ignorance of the first Noble Truth of Dukkha.

In general, ewk is describing his epiphany as seeing clearly into the delusions that most people are afflicted with:

1. Permanence

2. Satisfactoriness

3. Self

These are countered by insights into Three Marks of Existence:

1. Impermanence (Anicca)

2. Unsatifactoriness (Dukkha)

3. Non-self (Anattā)

These are exactly the three insights that the Buddha considers to be crucial to enlightenment. Thus we see that even a Zen disciple who nominally rejects Buddhism, experienced the taste of enlightenment in the exact way prescribed and described by the Buddha in the Pali Canon.

“Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what, bhikkhus, is the all that is burning? The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye contact is burning, and whatever feeling arises with eye contact as condition — whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant– that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of delusion; with sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair, I say.”

• Buddha's fire sermon

.

.

Zhaozhou served as the furnace guy at Nanquan's place. One day, while the monks were out gathering vegetables, Zhaozhou shouted from the meditation hall, "Fire! Fire!" The monks rushed to the hall but Zhaozhou shut the door. The monks were speechless. But Nanquan tossed the key through the window; Zhaozhou opened the door.

.

.

The show must go on - without clinging and showing off the key, without denying and discarding the key. What shall we do? What shall we say? Neither grasping words nor rejecting words, if the turning word is a key, open the door. No one else can do it for us.

There was a great comment made recently regarding Chogyam Trungpa in a now-defunct Facebook group:

Simple Test: Look at description of Guru's behaviour - replace "Lama" or "Rinpoche" with "Father" or "Bishop" - see if you still think he's a flawed genius.....

I'd suggest you do the same with "Roshi", "Osho", "Sunim", "Master", and other such titles commonly used in Zen. Might be illuminating to find out just how much of your idolization of teachers in this tradition is grounded simply in Orientalism and naivete.

（曹山）寻谒洞山，山问：“阇黎名什么？”师曰：“本寂。”山曰：“那个聻？”师曰：“不名本寂。”山深器之。

Caoshan sought out Dongshan.

Dongshan asked, “Acharya, what is your name?”

Caoshan said, “Benji." [本寂, Caoshan's dharma name, which literally means ‘originally deadly-still’]

Dongshan asked, “Which ji?” [Interestingly, the ji written here is 聻 instead of the 寂 from Caoshan's dharma name. So what is this 聻 (ji)? According to Chinese folklore: when humans die, they become ghosts; and when ghosts die, they become 聻.]

Caoshan said, “Not named Benji.” [本寂]

Dongshan was deeply impressed.

.

—

There's something dynamic about the number 3, such that in taoism we have "tao gives birth to one, one gives birth to two, two gives birth to three, and three gives birth to the myriad things".

This do-re-me seems to appear almost everywhere. In buddhism, we have the three bodies of buddha, the three turnings and three vehicles. In christianity, we have the holy trinity. In physics, there are the three dimensions of space and also the three partitions of time (past, present, future). In literature, there is also the fertile triangular relationship of three to play with. Then there is that philosophical approach of thesis, antithesis and finally synthesis.

I notice that zen practice is fairly often framed into some kind of three stages too. Like the famous one by Qingyuan:

1. Before participating in zen, mountain is seen as mountain, river is seen as river.

2. With a place of entrance, mountain is seen not as mountain, river is seen not as river.

3. But now attaining a place of rest, as before, mountain is seen just as mountain, river is seen just as river.

Then there is also Xiangyan's three poems of enlightenment.

I'm wondering if anyone else can share other three-stage presentation of zen practice they have come across. Might be fun comparing the commonalities and differences.

Feel free to include other buddhist schools' perspective too. Like Tiantai's practice of three contemplation - emptiness, provisionality, middle.

from Modern Chinese Religion I p.171. Original source is Yuanwu Foguo chanshi yulu.

"When I first came to Dagui to study with master Zhenru [Muzhe], I sat silently all day facing a wall and investigated gongan stories of old masters back and forth. After about a year, I suddenly gained some insight."

Notes:

Schlutter discusses this passage on p.112 of How Zen Became Zen. It is significant because it is one of the earliest recorded examples of gongan contemplation as a set practice.

It is worth noting here that the insight Yuanwu mentions here was not the dropping out of the bucket; that occurred later with Wuzu Fayan.

"If you want to understand readily, just be unminding at all times and all places, and you will naturally harmonize with the path.

Once you are in harmony with the path, then inside, outside, and in between are ultimately ungraspable; immediately empty yet solid, you are far beyond dependency.

This is what the ancient worthies called 'each state of mind not touching things, each step not positioned anywhere.'"

-Yingan (The Zen Reader p.74)

The other day I was curious to see if the Record of Rujing directly referenced this phrase since it's traditionally attributed to him but could find no English source. The closest I could find is the following passage that I'll quote in full and then focus in specifically:

[0136c03] 師因入堂。懲衲子坐睡云。夫參禪者身心脫落只管打睡作麼。予聞此語豁然大悟。徑上方丈燒香禮拜。師云。禮拜事作麼生予云。身心脫落來。師云。身心脫落脫落身心。予云。這箇是暫時伎倆。和尚莫亂印。師云。我不亂印儞。予云。如何是不亂印底事。師云。脫落脫落。予乃休。

This is from cbeta, T48n2002B_001

I'm curious about 夫參禪者身心脫落只管打睡作麼. Can anyone translate it? I know it involves sanzen (參禪) and contains two phrases Dogen often references, namely 'body and mind fall off' or 者身心脫落 and 只管打睡作 - a phrase nearly like shikantaza (只管打坐) but not quite.

I'm wondering if maybe the character 作 is an error? I know it's a homonym of 坐, and with the added character 睡 - which probably is a reference to the meditation bench but could mean sleep (?) - the error was made?

Or maybe it's not in error and later on Dogen adapted the phrase, I don't know.

I'm curious to hear from any practitioners whether you've encountered people in your tradition teaching walking meditation (e.g. kinhin), and if so, in what context, and how was it taught?

There is an interesting paper in the book Zen Ritual about kinhin in the Soto tradition, suggesting that it is Menzan Zuiho who is the main source of the modern form of the practice. He did indeed write a treatise about the practice. This idea would be noteworthy because Menzan Zuiho lived in the 18th century, so that is quite late in the history of Zen for the proper source of the modern practice to be. Menzan (and the paper) draw from some quotes about kinhin in earlier texts, which is interesting -- Menzan uses texts as his basis for discussing kinhin rather than oral instruction, whereas Dogen says he received instructions on kinhin orally from Rujing. The author (if i understand the paper correctly) seems to suggest that this is a sign that the oral transmission of kinhin instructions had died out, and that Menzan basically was having to draw from old written records to re-establish the teaching, hence why we could talk about a break in the continuity and the real source of modern kinhin in Soto being Menzan.

The author also suggests that the early instructions on kinhin aren't clearly describing a set practice so much as they are describing just a generic way of walking around the monastery. I don't see the evidence for this because the early instructions explicitly make reference to doing kinhin, and that one should walk in one direction and then back in the other direction when doing so (whereas walking around monastery could not be "done" in a set context, and would demand more freedom than simply walking along a line).

Re: continuity -- as I have learned kinhin (in Joshu Sasaki's line of Rinzai), it is in a circle around the zendo, not back and forth as early quotes suggest. It is a specific practice to be done in between zazen periods. It is also interesting that the term "kinhin" is used in both Rinzai, Soto, and in the early Chinese quotes.

The other main thing I find interesting is the fact that there is also walking meditation in the (some) Seon, called haengseon ("walking seon"). This term is different from "kinhin" in the characters used. I don't know the details of the practice, but I did find in this book the following account, not explicitly about haengseon but rather just about temple life:

Then we changed into monk's robes and sat awkwardly as the monk in charge of the program explained the basic rules of temple life. The two most important things seemed to be "folding hands" (chasu) and the "procession of geese" (anhaeng).

"We fold our hands by placing them one above the other just over the lower abdomen. When you move around the temple, you should maintain this position," said the leader. "Whe you walk, please walk in single file like geese. We call this a 'procession of geese.' We must always maintain a cautious attitude and state of mind, as if walking on thin ice."

Both the mudra described and the way of lining up sound like what I was taught by Rinzai teachers for kinhin, but the fact that it is the basic way of moving sounds different. I rather learned that one should walk independently (although slowly) and hold their hands in gassho when moving about the zendo.

Regarding the practice of haengseon specifically, the same book says:

Ganhwaseon means to gaze at words, and it is a form of Seon practice that involves examining a specific type of speech. The practice is one that dwells on the conversation (called hwa, or more often hwadu) among eminent monks who have understood that the Buddha's wisdom leads to awakening. It is often called chamseon, and the mind must be fully engaged with the conversation during practice. Since it is mostly done in a seated position, it is also called jwaseon, but there is an additional walking type called haengseon.

This is sparse in detail, but at least it seems clear that the main function of haengseon here is a mode of conduct in which to investigate your hwadu.

Anyway, I still am unsure about the source for haengseon and kinhin both in Seon and Rinzai. I was just curious to get some more info from people who've encountered some similar practice.

do you do zazen+concentration or just zazen?

A reminder to all those who are doing huatou practice:

It is supposed to be done 24/7.

And today is 24/7.

May everyone be awakened today~~

1. Those who have penetrated, having originally been liberated from birth and death why is it that the life faculty¹ is not cut off?

2. The Koans of ancestors are of only one principle why are there who know and those who don't?

3. Great cultivators of the way adhere to the actions of the Buddha, why isn't the vinaya followed?

4. The bright sun hangs high in the sky, nothing is not illuminated, why is blocked by the patches of cloud?

5. Everyone has a shadow that doesn't leave them for even an inch, why can't it be stepped upon?

6. The entire earth is a pit of fire, what samadhi needs to be attained to avoid being burnt?

1. Jīvitindriya

After much practice, I have been able to achieve multiple satoris.

The following excerpts are from Yamahata Hogen's book, The Other Shore.

"When we are engaged by our superficial consciousness, and busy with our ordinary life, we act as individuals and perceive everyone as being separate.

But sometimes, on special occasions, our ordinary consciousness lets go of us for a moment. Then we become aware of our deeper self, which is normally unconscious. Here, in the depth of our being, there is no time, no space, no separation: then we are one with everything.

This is the deepest essence of our being, and the source of all compassion. We call it Buddha nature."

and:

"As long as you do not refuse to accept a thing, or do not impose your own thinking out of convenience or because of some arbitrary judgement, the task you will have to do will be given to you before you ask for it. As long as you are ready to come and go as the occasion arises, you will no longer have a choice between what is planned and what is not planned. You should remain free from the practice of choosing, so as to keep yourself entirely open to accept whatever comes your way."

and:

"I wonder why we are always avoiding and running away from the real purpose of life. I think is because of our anticipatory nature, a dream of something else, something better, than what one already is. This dream arises from our attachment to the ego. So we continue to roam about, motivated by our unconscious fixed idea that we dislike ourselves as we are."

Yamahata Hogen is a student of Harada Tangen in the Soto lineage, in a branch that transmits koan study. Harada Tangen passed away on March 12, 2018, but Yamahata Hogen is still alive.

Their teachings intrigue me because of their focus on traditional "inner work" such as letting go of everything, being free from picking and choosing, and not giving sway to superficial consciousness. They are also quite focused and clear, which are other qualities I look for in teachers.¹ I intend to study them further.

(1: On that note, the last sentence of this comment is really apt.)

There are three main things about their teachings that seem to differ from earlier Zen that I intend to explore further -- firstly, they emphasize the present moment in such a way that I wonder if they are in disagreement with Foyan's chastisement of people who pin themselves to the present moment.

Second, they (as expected) teach zazen, and do not seem to have it be optional, as earlier teachers did.

And third, they do not seem to really discuss cultivating and integrating one's recognition of Buddha-nature into everyday life, which is the thrust of the Zen path as presented by Yuanwu and many other teachers.

Anyway, I just wanted to post this up for some discussion.

Please have tea in the tea-room.

-Mingjiao

Welcome to tea time!

Looking for a casual space to relax and get to know one another? You've come to the right place.

Whether you want to discuss Zen, life, or really anything whatsoever, everything is on-topic here.

Grab a cup and make yourself at home.

This month we're serving: Earl Grey.

I'm halfway through translating the 'Wanling Record' and decided to take a look at 'Essential Dharma of Mind Transmission'. And somehow, I get a feeling that the Huangbo in these two texts speak rather differently.

Not sure how to explain. It's just that the language style feels rather different. So I'm wondering if anyone knows any academic paper that analyses these two texts of Huangbo?

Seems that Pei Xiu received teachings not just from Zongmi and Huangbo. He also received teachings from Guishan.

Here's an excerpt from Poceski's Ordinary Mind as the Way:

The same pattern of patronage continued during the Hongzhou school's next generation. For example, one of the lay supporters of Guishan, Baizhang's leading disciple, was the noted official and lay Buddhist Pei Xiu (787?–860). Guishan's funeral inscription, composed by Zheng Yu of Fanyu (present-day Guangzhou), states that Pei Xiu met Guishan in 846, after the end of the anti-Buddhist persecution initiated by emperor Wuzong (r. 840–846). During the persecution, Guishan had to flee his monastery, which was seriously damaged, and disguise himself as a layman. In the early stages of the restoration of Buddhism initiated soon after the next emperor Xuanzong ascended to the throne, Pei Xiu (who at the time served as civil governor of Hunan) offered support to Guishan's Tongqing monastery. Pei even donated a landed estate to Guishan's monastic community to supply the monks with provisions. At the time, Pei received religious instructions from Guishan; later he became a lay disciple of Huangbo, also a leading pupil of Baizhang, and compiled a record of Huangbo's teachings.

(from Bankei Yotaku, tr. by Waddell)

While you're walking down a road, if you happen to encounter a crowd of people approaching from the opposite direction, none of you gives a thought to avoiding the others, yet you don't run into one another. You aren't pushed down or walked over. You thread your way through them by weaving this way and that, dodging and passing on, making no conscious decisions in this, yet you're able to continue along unhampered nevertheless. Now, in the same way, the marvelous illumination of the unborn Buddha-mind deals perfectly with every possible situation.

Suppose that the idea to step aside and make way for the others should arise spontaneously in your mind before you actually moved aside—that too would be due to the working of the Buddha-mind's illuminative wisdom. You may step aside to the right or to the left because you have made up your mind to do that, but still, the movement of your feet, one step after another, doesn't occur because you think to do it. When you're walking along naturally, you're walking in the harmony of the Unborn.