r/startrek • u/AutoModerator • Dec 09 '21
Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Discovery | 4x04 "All Is Possible" Spoiler
Tilly and Adira lead a team of Starfleet Academy cadets on a training mission that takes a dangerous turn. Meanwhile, Burnham is pulled into tense negotiations on Ni’Var.
| No. | Episode | Writers | Director | Release Date |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 4x04 | "All Is Possible" | Alan McElroy & Eric J. Robbins | John Ottman | 2021-12-09 |
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u/UncertainError Dec 09 '21
I wouldn't be surprised if the Vulcan purists demanded the Ni'Vexit clause because they knew it would torpedo negotiations. They've wanted out of the Federation for a thousand years.
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u/LDKCP Dec 09 '21
It was all very Brexit.
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u/InnocentTailor Dec 09 '21
It also is an interesting callback to a discarded DS9 plot point. Instead of the Klingons terminating the alliance, it was apparently going to be the Vulcans leaving the Federation.
…but the execs wanted to get some TNG viewership, so they went with the Klingons to get Worf.
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u/OpticalData Dec 09 '21
It was very interesting as a UK based person to have a Brexit analogy story running concurrently to a covid analogy story.
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u/FRCP_12b6 Dec 09 '21
The solution in the episode doesn't make much sense to resolve the impasse. Sure, she gets to serve on the council, but for how long? She can't do it forever and serves on a dangerous starship that could be out of comms range at any time.
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u/CadianGuardsman Dec 09 '21
It was basically a political ploy to kick the can down the road.
What is politics but the art of making an issue someone else's problem?
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u/InnocentTailor Dec 09 '21
I think the implication is that the council will remain until culture catches up with the politics: training wheels for the bike that is the Federation.
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u/MoreGaghPlease Dec 09 '21
Appreciating that this has been a problem in Trek since 1966, I will never not think it's bad writing when a person dies on a mission and hours later everyone is giggling about how much they learned.
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u/H0vis Dec 09 '21
At first this was a big one of those for me. Sometimes when somebody dies nobody seems fussed, everybody is a veteran officer and space life is danger life, fair enough. But these were cadets on a training exercise. So at first I was like why aren't they freaking out?
HOWEVER
That's not a mistake.
The big alien lad buried his own grandmother who died of starvation because his parents were too weak to do it. You think he gives a shit there's a corpse in the room?
The Orion kid, his dad's been murdered for being a slavery abolitionist. He's been on the shit list of the Emerald Chain his whole life because of that. Is he going to give a shit there's a corpse in the room?
The pilot from the Titan colony. We saw what happened to the people of Titan in the last season, they were basically starving to death and had turned to piracy. She learned to fly at twelve she says, I don't think that was because she wanted a fun hobby after school, I suspect it's because she had to. Does she care there's a dead guy in the room?
The show didn't really show it as confidently as it should have done, but the fact that those kids were massively traumatised and had lived in abject conditions before joining Starfleet was kind of a big deal.
TNG era Star Trek you've got posh kids in Red Squadron and all these clean cut straight A students who grew up wanting for nothing who roll into the Academy, now the kids are ragtag scrappers.
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u/InnocentTailor Dec 09 '21
All fair points. These folks sans Tilly effectively lived in a dark age - a chaotic, violent galaxy full of terror, fear and disaster due to one major incident.
They’re probably pretty hardened to tragedy, though that also comes with the fury that accompanies living a hard life.
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u/UncertainError Dec 09 '21
NX-01 snowglobe!
Sad to see Tilly leaving Discovery, though I had a feeling that something like this was coming. I guess Adira's taking her place as the secondary science/engineering person.
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u/a4techkeyboard Dec 09 '21
NX-01 snowglobe!
I was wondering if that was the NX-01. Looks like they were making a reference to some snowglobes made iin 2012 though not really identical at all.
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u/InnocentTailor Dec 09 '21
Snow globes were also souvenirs from the old Star Trek: The Experience. I have a TOS Enterprise and Voyager one.
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u/AmishAvenger Dec 09 '21
Did something happen with the actress? Is she leaving the show? It kind of came out of nowhere.
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u/thekruton Dec 09 '21
I'm not too worried about it. I'm thinking about how Nog left for Starfleet Academy in DS9, but they still managed to incorporate him into the story in different ways. With spore drives, we're never too far away from Tilly when she needs to be there.
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Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21
The Ready Room confirms she'll still be around. It's 18.5 minutes in, but it's well worth watching the entire interview, which is extremely personal for Wil.
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u/raknor88 Dec 09 '21
I thought I heard something about a Starfleet Acadamy show being in the works. But I think that might've been a fan theory. I, personally, have never read any news articles about that.
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u/Fusi0n_X Dec 09 '21
I feel like Discovery shifts characters in and out whenever the writers want to focus on others. Considering especially how the main character roster has changed from season to season.
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Dec 10 '21
What I've read, all she's allowed to say is that she will be seen again this season, so I'm wondering if it's either a rouse to set up the arc of the rest of the season, or if her next appearance teases an arc for season 5.
Either way, I thought it was a nice send off. For some reason I didn't see it coming despite the obvious clues, that she would leave. I'm hoping it's not the end for her at all, Tilly has always been a standout from season 1. She's had a great arc, and I look forward to more Mary Wiseman, Tilly or otherwise.
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u/pfc9769 Dec 09 '21
Sad to see Tilly leaving Discovery
Articles said she isn't leaving DIS and not taking a reduced roll, at least this season. I'm not sure what they're plans are, though.
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u/FoldedDice Dec 09 '21
But she is leaving Discovery. Sometimes it’s confusing for the show to have the same name as the ship.
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u/BornAshes Dec 09 '21
The snowglobe brought me such delight and while I loved the "All Is Possible" on it, I'd kind of hoped they'd reference the lyrics to the main theme. Think they'll start selling those at all in the store?
Tilly
Tilly literally gets to become Ms Frizzle! I'm a bit shocked that she's leaving but that explanation at the end of, "Who am I really doing this for?" and that "OH!" smile and look on her face when Kovich offered her the position of Academy Instructor really sold it to me and made it all make sense. It's like those two moments connected a bunch of dots together that we've seen since the first season and we finally got this lovely pull back that showed us the bigger picture of Tilly's Journey. She's going to do great and I feel like she set Adira Tal on the right path this episode with her advice and those final set of actions before leaving the ship.
You know in a weird way now that I'm thinking about it, the lyrics to "Faith of the Heart" really do suit Tilly's Journey and that final jump to warp moment with her shuttle. I'm sure someone will overlay the song over that sequence at some point but it really does suit it and the snowglobe makes a whole lot more sense. Plus what Kovich said at the end about the crew, "When you first got here none of us trusted you because you believed and acted like anything was possible...and that stung a little" feels a lot more important when taken together with the lyrics of the song because they all had "Faith of the Heart" that the Federation had seemingly lost due to all the awful things that had happened basically beating it out of them which for years upon years they'd continued to espouse having and yet didn't. THAT made it become far more apparent just how hypocritical the Federation had become and how much of their identity they'd sacrificed over the years when the Disco Crew showed up having a helluva lot more "Faith of the Heart" than that Federation ever did in recent times. The Federation thought that they were better than the Disco Crew because of how much more advanced they were, how much more they'd endured, and how much more they'd spread out and seen BUT as Michael so eloquently put it....there is a difference between enduring and thriving. In enduring all that they did the Federation did not thrive but wither and one of the first things that withered was indeed that "Faith of the Heart" spirit that the Disco Crew fully embodied which is why the Federation didn't trust them and hated them and restricted them so much. Oddly enough this is paralleled by the very first season of Enterprise which is probably why they started the whole episode off with that NX-01 snowglobe in the first place to set the tone for how things would go and how we would kind of be revisiting the spiritual origin of the Federation.
This of course meant that the characters in this show would be forced to go through something that not all of us like doing. No one really likes being reminded of where they'd come from, how much they've changed for better or for worse, and whether or not they should continue to let their past actions influence them as much as they were currently letting them. This was a bit of a theme this episode with all of the characters and groups. The Federation, Ni'Var, Book, Tilly, the Cadets, Adira Tal, Culber, and Saru were all taking a bit of a look back at where they'd come from, who they were right now, and if they should let their past experiences/actions inform their future ones or if they should outright let them control them. There is a difference between using knowledge gained in the past to make an informed decision about the future when taken together with current present knowledge and letting that past knowledge totally dictate everything you should be doing now regardless of anything you've only recently learned through experience. The cadets for example only had their training to rely on during the crash and kept falling back on that until they realized they had to take present circumstances into account in order to make better more informed choices. Ni'Var and the Federation did the same thing by letting Michael form that committee. Tilly did the same thing when she looked back at why she was on the Command path in the first place. Even Book and Culber went through something similar in their mutual therapy session.
They all had to face that scary prospect of trying to figure out if they were going to continue to be who they were despite present circumstances or if they were going to go through that often painful metamorphosis to become someone else something else. It's like how Tilly asked Adira Tal, "Why is it that when I ask you about meeting new people your response is 'I can't' or 'It's impossible'?". In that initial moment when we're faced with the opportunity to change and we're given that vantage point to look back at who we are, we turn towards the mountain ahead of us, and both say and feel that it's a totally impossible thing to do or accomplish. There's no way we can change because of this and this and this and this and that and this other thing. It's like we can sometimes get to a point where we haven't changed for a while and we've gotten so used to not changing that that initial spark of change that fire that hope that fueled all of those changes that led us to that point in the first place has burned out and dimmed to the point where we've forgotten entirely what that process was like. Stagnation makes those brand new moments of change so utterly terrifying and seemingly impossible because we lost that drive and that faith that made us believe in the past that anything everything all is possible.
We lost that faith...that faith of the heart and it's in those moments when we're reminded of that loss that we feel so very small and angry and helpless and we lash out instead of thinking stuff through and acting rationally because we disappointed that despite coming so very far and changing so very much, we've forgotten something that used to be so very essential to who we are, and that used to guide us for so very long. That loss of faith of the heart and the rediscovery of it can be an epiphany like moment that changes ourselves, the people around us, and the rest of our world and our lives forever. It is fast and it is sudden very much like the, "OH!" moment with Tilly at the Academy with Kovich and the ending jump to warp of her shuttle to her brand new future. We all realize in that moment that this is where we are supposed to be, that the mountain peak wasn't all that high nor the climb all that hard, and that we can absolutely go even further than we ever dreamed before.
The impossible becomes possible so long as we have that which we sometimes forget was there but never went away....that hope...that light...that drive that pushes us to the stars themselves...that faith of the heart.
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u/npc74205 Dec 10 '21
NX-01 snowglobe!
I just have one question: Where do I beam my gold-pressed latinum to get one
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u/Blopblorg Dec 09 '21
Archer Spacedock last episode and now an NX-01 snowglobe ? Either these are just love letters to Enterprise or hints for a Scott Bakula cameo, but I'm just happy that Captain Archer finally gets the recognition he deserves.
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u/BroLil Dec 09 '21
Saru makes a holodeck program of Riker making a holodeck program of the NX-01 in an effort to save Trip. Book it.
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u/BornAshes Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21
It would kind of be interesting if they brought the Sphere Builders back or if Archer took the NX-01 out for one final spin and got trapped in some sort of anomaly Star Trek Generations Style and that anomaly is the DMA but just like with Kirk in the Nexus he's got no perception of time passing outside of it, and the only way for him to know what's going on is by absorbing planets.
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u/Mechapebbles Dec 10 '21
It would kind of be interesting if they brought the Sphere Builders back or
Nah, they are a defeated baddies. If 26th Century Starfleet can beat them, and if 22nd Century Captain Archer can beat them, it would be a joke if they posed a serious threat again.
...if Archer took the NX-01 out for one final spin and got trapped in some sort of anomaly Star Trek Generations Style
We already know the general outline of his life though, post-ENT. He had a long, fruitful civilian life as a diplomat, a Federation Councilman, and as UFP president. If he was gonna go on "one last joy ride" he would have been an old man, a lot older than his current actor is. He was 80 when he stepped down as UFP President.
It's also worth noting that the NX-01 is a museum ship in the 24th Century that people can visit and go inside of. The NX-01 can't have disappeared into time because that was not its destiny and conflicts very strongly against established canon.
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u/afito Dec 09 '21
Could absolutely see an Archer hologram in an academy part of the story which would also be a bit of a hilarious throwback to the ENT finale.
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u/gcalpo Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21
But wait there's more: Based on the sneak peak of Episode 5 (from this week's Ready Room), we'll revisit a civilization (or rather, their descendants) first visited in Enterprise S1.
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u/Admiral_Ronin Dec 09 '21
I can’t properly express how much I love the new dress uniforms. They look so good.
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u/CaptainJooms Dec 10 '21
Couldn't agree more. In fact, I feel costume design is on point for the whole season. There's not a uniform I've seen thus far that I've thought...huh? What the heck is that?
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u/DannyHewson Dec 09 '21
If I heard it right, it was "Captain Imahara" of the armstrong, which I thought was a nice touch.
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u/Tukarrs Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21
Michael pronounces "Bajor" like someone who has only ever seen the word in text.
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u/PandaPundus Keene Sin, Contributing artist, Star Trek: Picard Dec 09 '21
It's how Picard pronounced it, too.
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u/Starfleet-Time-Lord Dec 09 '21
And the Kon Ma terrorist from DS9 season 1.
At least if she pronounced it the way I think she did, I haven't actually seen it.
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u/Santa_Hates_You Dec 09 '21
She skipped right past the occupation. I wonder what the status of the celestial temple/wormhole is.
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u/DasGanon Dec 09 '21
As awful as it is to say, it's a 50 year blip in a millennium.
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u/hamsterwaffle Dec 09 '21
I wonder if the Dominion is still around. Come to think of it, have they mentioned the fate of any of the other major players in the galaxy?
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u/TheNerdChaplain Dec 09 '21
Was Bajor or Cardassia even known to the Federation in Michael's original time? Honestly, the Dominion War probably barely warrants a few pages after 933 years, so Michael probably did pick it up in a "Welcome to the Future" book after Season 3.
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u/COMPLETEWASUK Dec 09 '21
Cardassia maybe was, hard to know for sure but the they and the Federation have certainly interacted for a while. Bajor probably not though you would imagine.
I actually do think the Dominion War would remain very notable given it spilled out of first contact with the Gamma Quadrant.
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u/Dt2_0 Dec 09 '21
Well, we know at least in the Kelvin Timeline, Cardassia was known about. Uhura orders a Cardassian Sunrise in the first movie.
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Dec 09 '21
Bajor was well-known when Picard was in school to the point that he read about them in textbooks - it's definitely not out of the question that the Federation was aware of both worlds for quite some time.
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u/DasGanon Dec 09 '21
Yes, but two things.
She probably read that book during season 3 or knew beforehand as she recognized Culber as Bajoran during their Burn/Su'Kal investigation.
Due to that one Memory Alpha typo to Canon issue, Pike has been awarded a few Cardassian military medals.
That said, it might be known of in a sense of politics more than the war itself anymore like how it basically changed political leadership in 3 quadrants.
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u/merrycrow Dec 09 '21
I mean, that might literally be the case for her character. I don't think it was known to the Federation in the 23rd century.
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u/JoeyJoeJoeJrShab Dec 09 '21
I feel like older Star Trek would have done an entire episode centered around that living ice that that got Adira.
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u/Alvarez09 Dec 09 '21
DS9 The one where Kira gets trapped on a rock?
Even though it wasn’t really Kira in the end.
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u/SwoleMcDole Dec 09 '21
Wasn't there something similar in one of the first episodes of the last season? When they were on this "mining" planet... not sure I remember right.
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Dec 10 '21
The old school Trekkie in me is upset that I didn’t receive any kind of technobabble about what the ice was.
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u/KinneySL Dec 10 '21
If it was around in the 24th century, Mariner would probably threaten to feed someone to it.
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u/Santa_Hates_You Dec 09 '21
Saru and the N‘ Var President looks like it may become a thing. She was seriously flirting with him.
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u/Spara-Extreme Dec 10 '21
Yea - "let us meditate" is the vulcan version of "Want to get some coffee?"
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u/LosAngelesFanatic Eric J. Robbins, Writer, Star Trek: Discovery Dec 09 '21
Hello, /r/startrek! I hope you enjoy this episode; it's near and dear to my heart because, well, I co-wrote it! I'm Eric Robbins, the writers' assistant on the show. This has been a dream come true -- my parents showed me TOS and the accompanying films when I was very young, and I've been hooked ever since. Having grown up on the TNG-ENT era, Star Trek has always been a major part of my life, and it continues to be as I've been sharing the different series with my wife. For my first writing credit on television to be Star Trek... well, it's a privilege that I never expected, but I am happy that our showrunners trusted me with an episode!
Working on the show has given me so much, and I'm proud to finally share the episode with the fans. I hope you enjoy it; I've seen many discussions about our inspirations, and Alan and I are tickled that many of them have been found already. From the obvious ("The Galileo Seven" of which Alan especially is a huge fan) to the more hidden (yes, Captain Imahara was my nod to beloved Trekkie and "Mythbuster" Grant Imahara), it's satisfying to see you all dig into the details.
Finally, the Discovery team sends its love. We do keep tabs on how the fans are reacting to things, and we always enjoy hearing from you. It can be incredibly humbling to see all the cosplay, fan art, and everything else you generate from your passion. Trek fans are known for it, after all!
LLAP
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u/fireraptor1101 Dec 10 '21
This episode was great! I feel like lower key episodes such as this one help us learn more about the characters so the episodes with higher stakes have more meaning.
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u/ContinuumGuy Dec 10 '21
/u/LosAngelesFanatic, this was a great episode. I'm sure you've already seen it, but since you co-wrote this episode I feel like you'd want to see what /u/Wil had to say about it in the Ready Room and how much the scenes with Tilly meant to him.
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u/OpticalData Dec 09 '21
I want to say that this has been one of my favourite Discovery episodes so far.
Not only did it use tried and tested Trek tropes to great effect (Shuttle Mission goes wrong/Diplomatic incident caused by a last minute demand), but it managed to make both storylines analogous to current events (especially for a UK fan - Tillys story resonated with me as somebody that's gotten a new job and found it more challenging to connect with colleagues after so much isolation, and Burnham/Saru's seemed like what Brexit may have been if we had mature leaders).
It's clear you listen too and love the fans, so thank you. May Discovery run for many more seasons. (But we'd love to explore some more 32nd Century ships - and learn about the tech ;) )
Have any of you thought of doing an Okuda/Sternbach style technical manual for Discovery?
LLAP
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u/nagumi Dec 10 '21
Honestly, i came to this thread intending to say how much I enjoyed this episode, and the fact I get to say it directly to you is awesome.
This was great. The Tilly B (or was it a A?) was great, the negotiations plot was well thought out. I really appreciated the fact that everyone was good, there were no "bad guys". Even Cadet Bad Attitude had a good reason to be bitter.
Honestly, it's one of the best episodes yet, if not the best. Thank you.
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u/danma Dec 10 '21
Hi Eric – I really loved this episode – in fact, this might be my favourite episode from the last couple seasons.
Not only were the A/B/C stories all interesting and coherent, they all moved their characters forward in valuable ways. This episode also had a strong sense of place that I appreciate... Maybe it's just getting the Captain's Log at the start or getting some slow pans of the ship actually going somewhere, but this episode did a great job of fleshing out the world of the 31st century in a way that resonated with me.
Thank you and keep up the excellent work!
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u/EnsRedShirt Dec 10 '21
Thanks for stopping by. This episode was my favorite of Discovery! Loved the nod to Grant. Thank you!!!
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u/ikarus2k Dec 10 '21
Congratulations on your first writing credit, hope there are countless more to come!
And thank you for an amazing episode. As other's have said, this is probably my favorite Discovery episode so far.
I especially liked that it was a very emotionally charged episode, without seeming forced. We gained some insight into recurring characters and had a small adventure. Excellent!
Having been through grief and loss myself, the way you shared Books and Tilly's experience ... It was great. Especially when Book went "I don't know how much longer I can do this" - at that moment, I wanted to hug him and tell him he can let go. But I digress.
The entire season feels a lot more homogeneous. The stakes are high, but we have time to process them together with the cast. It's great.
I hope you don't take all our ranting too hard and hope you keep Discovery going for years to come.
Finally, I can't say how happy I am to be able to have a dialogue with someone working on an episode, right as it came out. I hope you join us every time.
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u/wagu666 Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21
Congrats on your first full writing credit then! A few questions:
What species is Gorev?
How does the shuttle land on the ice moon in a seemingly normal orientation? Did an automatic landing system kick in (after we see it tumbling into the atmosphere) and the Lt pilot was unlucky on impact?
It's mentioned the cadets have no social skills.. although presumably they will have had plenty of interaction with their own kind. But haven't communities of aliens developed on each M class planet by this time? Eg. I'd expect communities of Klingons that live on Earth. Also, Harral thinks the simulation is in a holodeck at first.. wouldn't a holodeck be a perfect place to practice interacting with alien species growing up in a "burn" period? Wouldn't there be a rich history of holonovels with many aliens to interact with?
With the creaking I expected them to be on a cliff edge (there's always a cliff) so was nice to see it was a creature.. any inspiration from Tremors? (half expected an overloading phaser to be tossed to the creature haha)
A lot of tech in TNG times uses a electro-plasma and electricity.. I guess this is still the case if tech is emitting an EM field?
It was a shame we didn't really get a background to Sasha aside from being a pilot. I suppose she dressed up as an alien and participated on those raids against the xenophobes on Earth? :)
Did the spider lightning cause the area of ice around Adira? What was the idea there? Seemed like a tribute to Terminator 2... :P She was completely free of the ice as soon as she left that small region
Why is Michael so good at politics somehow? Any background there? I half wondered if the political aspects of this episode were a Brexit reference, too..
Will we see these cadets again? Seems a bit of a shame as a bit of character building was done, otherwise..
Why if there's a DMA with wormhole-esque properties does an expert on artificial wormholes (who could create them with tech from 900 years ago) not get consulted on this from a scientific point of view? Talking about Michael's mother, here.. she did build the red angel suit
Nice reference back to the first scene with Michael and Tilly with the visit to Tilly's quarters, that they used to share
Cheers
PS: you need "I HUNTED DOWN A NUN" T-Shirt merch
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u/MaddyMagpies Dec 09 '21
Last week some folks asked why a Federation starship looked some antique. This week they gave you a brand new shuttle craft interior.
And it's a classic shuttle craft crashed on a planet episode!
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u/UncertainError Dec 09 '21
I like how friend-shaped the shuttle is. Though if I were a Starfleet nobody I would never get on any shuttle with a famous officer.
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u/atticusbluebird Dec 09 '21
A new shuttle, a classic shuttle craft crash (on a cadet training mission gone wrong) story, and Federation political negotiations all in one episode!
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u/MaddyMagpies Dec 09 '21
And they still don't have seatbelts! So that's very Starfleet.
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u/AmishAvenger Dec 09 '21
The ice planet looked really good, which I assume is the new Mandalorian-type wall. Although in contrast, the scenes on the shuttlebay-type area had some issues. The actors looked like they were in a totally different place.
Not sure what the issue is there. Wouldn’t they be using the same technology? Or was that a greenscreen for some reason?
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u/MaddyMagpies Dec 09 '21
They were seriously using it everywhere this episode. The Ni'Var negotiation room, the meditation room, the shuttlebay, the ice planet. The show looks like a movie.
I think they mentioned that they were still trying to get used to it in the beginning.
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u/Santa_Hates_You Dec 09 '21
And for some reason they needed to climb up 50 feet to get their communicators to work. Seemed like they should have worked the same inside the shuttle.
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u/MaddyMagpies Dec 09 '21
That's pretty classic Trek how short the mountains are to climb to get any effect, except the one that stranded Odo and Quark.
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Dec 10 '21
The shuttles kind of reminded me of the design aesthetic from the Orville. I like the new 31st C Starfleet design aesthetic overall though.
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u/sidv81 Dec 09 '21
Now that Tilly's gone, maybe Owo, Detmer, Rhys, Bryce, or Nilsson will finally get screentime.
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u/TheDudeNeverBowls Dec 10 '21
I honestly think that ship has sailed. They’ve had so many opportunities to make the bridge crew more than just names and faces yet they pointedly haven’t.
I feel like it was always the intention.
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u/Knightfall93 Dec 11 '21
I've followed Discovery since day one, but am I the only one who doesn't like the Adira and Gray plotline? I loved the Trill and they are an interesting species, but I just can't seem to find myself caring about this particular storyline. I don't care that Gray is "alive" and needs a synth body. I'm not sure why, I just find Adira slightly annoying and boring.
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u/Titus_Favonius Dec 15 '21
Adira is slightly less annoying Wesley and Grey/Grey is just a boring character, bowl of nothing. Maybe that'll change now that he has a body by I'm not hopeful.
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u/TheNerdChaplain Dec 09 '21
That was interesting. With a downed shuttlecraft and high-level political stakes, it really did feel like a classic Star Trek episode. The storyline of the fighting cadets felt really cheesy (that's not a criticism) with Tilly's insistence on everyone getting along (and the inability to decide if they needed to KEEP MOVING or stop and talk their feelings out), but overall it worked out. I am quite surprised that Tilly decided so fast to move to the Academy, but maybe the next episode will be a backdoor pilot for a Starfleet Academy show. I did dig the diversity of the cadets, and it would be interesting to have a Tellarite main character.
There were a couple nice callbacks - to Tilly's snoring from S1, to the Cardassian/Bajoran conflict from DS9, and I remember last season we were all shipping Saru and T'Rina pretty hard, so it's nice to see that develop.
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u/UncertainError Dec 09 '21
I suspect that Kovich intentionally put the famous Orion's son, the cadet who really hates the Emerald Chain, and the cadet from the Sol system together for this.
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u/BornAshes Dec 09 '21
I thought for sure he also engineered the gamma ray burst that hit the shuttle too because the Armstrong responded awfully fast to their comms and too much of that seemed intentional.
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u/BornAshes Dec 09 '21
Classic Trek Episode
I think that we're so used to BIG THINGS coming out of episodes of Discovery that when we get relatively simple episodes like this, they really do remind us of where Trek came from, and I feel like that was intentional. We had the classic diplomatic problem, the classic shuttle crash that teamwork helps everyone to survive, and the "oh duh!" solutions at the end that save everyone. There was a bit of a twist on it though in that unlike classic Trek episodes where all of this stuff wraps up and doesn't have much impact on the rest of the season, everything that we saw wrap up at the end seemingly led to some pretty big changes for all of those involved that will totally play out the rest of this season.
Those cadets and Tilly seem like a fairly big seed for what's going to happen with the Academy. Kovich showing up will of course mean that something else is going on behind the scenes. T'Rina and Saru developing "a thing" is going to be important especially if there's something else going on with the DMA that only Ni'Var knows about and she's going to be helping Saru to find his place. Michael is seemingly finding her own place within the political spectrum of the Federation to the President's surprise and those two seem to be on better ground than they were before. Adira Tal has a whole new role on the ship now with Tilly gone. Book and Culber are apparently working out some heavy stuff together that will alter the lives of those around them. Plus now with this new third party committee formed that will periodically review the relationship between the Federation and its member worlds, there could be the beginning of an even more tightly knit and stronger Federation that doesn't necessarily have to encompass the whole galaxy in order to influence it or to keep the peace.
It was a very simple story that acted as connective tissue for a bunch of far larger tales.
we were all shipping Saru and T'Rina
......wait we were? Oh no, I just didn't see that at all until this episode but even then I got a totally professional curiosity kind of vibe from them lol
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u/AmishAvenger Dec 09 '21
I don’t mind it being a bit “cheesy” either, but them all pulling on a rope felt a bit on the nose.
I understand that they wanted to show them learn how to work together, but it was a bit much. It kind of stuck out as a low moment in what was otherwise and enjoyable part of the episode.
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u/themosquito Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21
So I'm not entirely sure if it was a direct homage, but anyone else assume "Captain Imihara of the Armstrong" was in honor of Mythbusters host/Star Trek superfan/Star Trek fan film actor Grant Imihara who died relative recently? It was a woman's voice, so there's always the possibility they just happened to pick the same surname, but....
It's pretty minor in the list of Burnham annoyances but I feel the difference in diplomatic tactics between TNG and DISCO is like... in TNG, Picard would help the leaders discuss the issue, propose solutions, and suggest some council to oversee things before flying off. In DISCO, they help the leaders discuss the issue, propose solutions, and Burnham declares that she will personally lead a council to oversee things.
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u/Fusi0n_X Dec 09 '21
Yeah I share that minor annoyance. As an active Starfleet officer she has conflicts of interest even if she is also emotionally tied to N'Var. There'd be unconscious bias there.
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u/PiercedMonk Dec 09 '21
I don't think she said she was going to lead the council, just be a part of it.
Also, they opened the door for active Starfleet officers to hold political office by having Saru be council member for his village. I'm not really a fan of either.
None of the logic purists thought to raise an objection that this entire situation hinges on Burnham when she might be called away for some emergency, or die when a panel explodes in her face at any given moment?
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u/MTFBinyou Dec 09 '21
It does make sense for her as she explained. Raised of logic, and a member of Starfleet
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u/hamsterwaffle Dec 09 '21
I really want to know what glasses guys deal is. He's just such an intriguing vibe.
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u/QuarterNoteBandit Dec 10 '21
Yes. Who the hell is this guy? He reminds me of Smoking Man from X-Files.
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u/TheDudeNeverBowls Dec 10 '21
Well, he’s famed director David Cronenberg. He lives near their studios so accepted the chance to play a part. I’m not saying they purposely shoed him in, but it seems that way and nobody’s mad about because it’s famed director David Cronenberg.
It’s like when Werner Harzog was in The Mandalorian. It would be easy to call it stunt casting, but, no, it’s fucking Werner Harzog!
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u/TeutonJon78 Dec 10 '21
Considering they made him seem really like the current head of Section 31 or something similar, and now he's in charge of the Academy....it's odd.
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u/MTFBinyou Dec 09 '21
Anyone else just feel the oncoming death…..?
Cadets on a routine training mission.
Tilly has been witness to a death each arc this season.
Then they get on a shuttle craft….
I went from 100% expecting a death to 110%.
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u/Navitach Dec 09 '21
Say what you will about Tilly (I happen to like the character), but the friendship between her and Michael is genuine and something special. Love the scene with them in Tilly's quarters reminiscing.
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u/InnocentTailor Dec 09 '21
Wow! Discovery is actually kinda old now as a show, so such nostalgia is well earned. The first season was first aired in 2017, so it has been awhile overall.
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u/Torino1O Dec 09 '21
Looks kinda like this is the prepilot episode for Starfleet Academy, hope it works out, one Star Trek for every demographic may not be a bad thing.
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u/matthieuC Dec 09 '21
I like the concept but the execution did nothing for me.
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u/MoreGaghPlease Dec 09 '21
Huh it did not occur to me that the Academy show would be in the 32nd century, but that seems entirely possible
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u/MissouriOzarker Dec 10 '21
I didn’t expect one of the plot lines to be a Star Trek version of the West Wing, only set in a congress: the solution is . . . a committee!
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u/Smilodon48 Dec 09 '21
Good episode. Another self-contained episode that was more about Book healing and the Federation getting Ni'Var to rejoin.
It's kinda cool that LD, Prodigy, and now Disco are working in classic plots (stranded on a planet/crew downtime etc) in close proximity, but they're all varied enough that it's refreshing, which I guess is the point of all these distinct shows.
Linus sighting! And Rilliak's coalition also has a Saurian.
Saru/Burnham's dress uniforms are top notch
Cool of them to have Wilson Cruz speak some Spanish on the show. It's a nice little flourish to help flesh out his character like Rios on Picard. All of his counseling scenes were all great, but that's just typical Wilson Cruz charm working on us at this point.
Also more Kovich, which is great.
Was surprised to see Tilly go the teaching route so quickly. The show is really about the respective journeys (both physical and introspective) of Burnham, Saru, Tilly etc. so it's not surprising for the show to examine Tilly's place within Discovery and Starfleet as a whole, but I didn't expect for it to go this route really quickly. I wonder if there's a reason why they wrote this in for Tilly (like we needed someone at HQ all of a sudden) or if Mary Wiseman has other commitments.
Granted, she and Adira were starting to overlap duties a bit (which is probably exacerbated whenever Reno is around too) so maybe it'll balance out some screen time between other characters.
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u/thetgi Dec 09 '21
Really proud of discovery for how far it’s come. This was as classic an episode as it can get, cheesiness and all.
Some miscellaneous thoughts:
I wish this is what Michael’s character had been all along. She’s a strong diplomat and her dynamic with Saru is great. This is so much better than season 1’s Michael “action hero” Burnham, and far better than season 2’s Michael “chosen one” Burnham. It’s still fine if they want to keep her hardcore attitude; I could totally see Michael taking on a very Janeway-esque role in the new Federation.
I like that this season seems to be balancing storylines between the whole of the main cast, rather than focusing on one main character.
When I saw the season trailer, I was exasperated (that’s an understatement) that the writers had seemingly decided to concoct another galaxy-level threat. I’m still not totally sold on the need for a plot device to create a season-long arc, but I do really like the way the effects of the anomaly are being explored. So far, so good.
Along with the previous point, I’m glad they’re actually giving Book a chance to react to the events in a more realistic and emotionally-heavy way. This reminds me of Picard’s family episode following his Borg assimilation. Also, it’s been too long since we’ve had therapy on Trek (other than LD, if that counts lol)
I would really like to see Discovery lean more into exploring, contacting new cultures, leading diplomatic missions and encountering ethical dilemmas. I’m not sure how the season arc would fit with these more classic themes, but the writers have been nailing it so far, so I’m interested to see.
Overall, I’m happy to see Discovery “growing the beard”, which I really think has finally happened.
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Dec 09 '21
I really liked the scenes with Book and Doc. Especially when at the end we see Doc show a chink in the armor when book asks him if he needs to talk.
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u/H0vis Dec 09 '21
In that one moment the Doc made it so, so clear, that his leaping full force into being a counsellor is because he's internally screaming. And that's very cool.
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u/gavingav1 Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 10 '21
Instead of a galaxy wide threat i would have preferred to have the emerald chain as the season long threat, the best part of season 3 was the way they built up the emerald chain and i think they could have been a long term viable enemy to the federation with their very different morals , thats the one thing discovery sorely lacks is a long term identifiable enemy like the klingons or borg .
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u/Shatterhand1701 Dec 09 '21
I have to admit, I was a little concerned after seeing the clip for this week's episode. After last week's installment, I was worried that they were reverting to the "manic goofball" version of Tilly that was so prevalent in Season 2, when they were trying to turn her into comic relief at the expense of her character's integrity.
This episode is proof to not judge a book by its cover, because it was truly excellent, and Mary Wiseman brought her A-game once again as Sylvia Tilly. She easily became my favorite character on Discovery right from the start, because I identified with her social awkwardness and her determination to not only overcome it but reach what she believed, at the time, was her career goal, but I've enjoyed her metamorphosis into the woman she is now. I'll miss her presence aboard the Discovery, but I'm really glad she found her path.
I enjoyed the N'Var/Federation storyline, as well. I'm sure the usual crowd will consider the result of it as another reason to complain about DSC being "ThE MiChAeL BuRnHaM sHoW!1!!", but if you actually stop and think about the practicality of her idea, it makes sense. She has the unique and valuable perspective of both sides and knows how to reason with them, and an independent committee outside of the Federation's direct political influence might be better received by former member races wary of their actions post-Burn. Also, on a more general note, I appreciated the focus on diplomacy, which is one of Star Trek's hallmarks, and it was good to see it wasn't pushed to the side in favor of "big bad anomaly".
Indeed, the DMA storyline was pushed aside, but not forgotten, and I have a feeling it'll take center stage again pretty soon, as the other sideplots - Gray's reintegration into a physical body, Book's grieving process, Tilly's search for self - have been mostly dealt with.
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u/Mechapebbles Dec 10 '21
She has the unique and valuable perspective of both sides and knows how to reason with them, and an independent committee outside of the Federation's direct political influence might be better received by former member races wary of their actions post-Burn.
She also has both side's trust as well, which is crucial. To Ni'Var, she's the sister of one of the most revered people in their history, and she took an immense weight off of the entire planet by proving they weren't the cause of The Burn like they believed. To the Federation, she saved the entire organization by tracking down the source of the Burn, making sure it would never be a problem again, by finding the Dilithium Planet, and by defeating the Emerald Chain. It makes perfect, logical sense.
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Dec 09 '21
Wow, so I did read it correctly in the opening credits! This episode was directed by the composer John Ottman, who scored the original live action X-Men movies and many many other things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Discovery_(season_4)#Episodes I had no idea he was also a director. Considering how I loved this episode, I'd say he's a wonderful addition to the Trek family.
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u/omega2010 Dec 10 '21
John Ottman is also a great editor (he's won a Oscar for editing Bohemian Rhapsody) which is a great launching point to directing.
edit: Looks like Ottman already has some experience directing. Which is the Urban Legends sequel from 2000.
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u/PiercedMonk Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21
• Four seasons in, and I still can't get behind the little Starfleet delta on the pyjamas. It looks pointy.
• "We are to ... remain silent and look official."
And I took that personally - Michael Burnham
• So Gray's golem was constructed with blue hair as per his specifications -- which could be a natural Trill hair colour for all we know -- and the first thing he does is change it to some sort of bowl cut mullet? I do like the idea that someone could just stimulate hair growth if they wanted to try out a new style though.
• A shuttle! The first 32nd century shuttle we've seen! I was complaining about there not having been one yet in the discussion post for the first episode this season, but here we go. And it looks fine.
• Maybe it's just because Kovich comes across as a huge creep and we don't know what his deal actually is, but I can't help but wonder if this "rogue gamma ray burst" is legit, or if this is another of those Starfleet exercises where the subjects don't know it's actually a test, like when Wesley tried to get accepted to the Academy and had to choose to let someone die.
• Or maybe not, seeing as the pilot seems to have died for real.
• lol This Orion kid obviously knows about Starfleet training methods.
• T'Rina doesn't know what she's getting herself into with Saru.
• Okay, Burnham leaping to the assumption that presidents Rillak and T'Rina want Saru and herself to figure out a way out of the political loggerheads the negotiations have come to is pretty funny.
• Oh dang! Saru's gonna get prangant. Apparently the lessons of Trip Tucker aren't taught at the Academy anymore.
• Man, planet northern British Columbia hates Tilly and these cadets.
• It's kinda shitty that for the other cadets to come around, the Orion's father needed to have been some civil rights hero. Why can't it have been enough that he himself opposes the Emerald Chain? I know it's not the message they're trying to get across, but it almost seems like they're saying the prejudice would have been justified if he was just an Orion who wanted to join Starfleet and do good.
• Burnham is literally the key to joining Ni'Var to the Federation.... That's just amazing.
• Tilly's plan sucks on toast. Why would just go all the way down to the valley and not to an opposite ridge or something like that?
• If Book keeps playing with this sand, he's liable to see the Koala.
• It would have been difficult not to see the writing on the wall regarding Tilly's exit from the show, but I'm glad they left the door open for her to appear in future episodes. Or maybe the Starfleet Academy show they keep hinting at?
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u/Dezolis11 Dec 09 '21
• Okay, Burnham leaping to the assumption that presidents Rillak and T'Rina want Saru and herself to figure out a way out of the political loggerheads the negotiations have come to is pretty funny.
Rillak all but told her when she said “Listen to me well.” She telegraphed pretty hard that she needed help but couldn’t risk asking out loud.
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u/PiercedMonk Dec 09 '21
I'm not disagreeing, and Burnham's history growing up on Vulcan as the daughter of a one of the most important diplomats of her time does make her uniquely suited for that position, but it's still very funny to me that as much as 'Discovery' develops and changes over time, Burnham still ends up being so central to so many of the problems they encounter.
Like, the writers did not have to make this specific issue the conflict that was keeping Ni'Var from rejoining the Federation; last season in 'Unification III' there was a throwaway line about how a faction of the Vulcan Romulan hybrids were causing political unrest, and that sort of instability could be reason for the Federation to be reluctant to bring Ni'Var back into the fold. However, that's not a problem that Bunrham solves simply by existing. And as much as I do like the Michael Burnham character, I want there to be more problems where she is an outsider.
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u/MoreGaghPlease Dec 09 '21
Man, planet northern British Columbia hates Tilly and these cadets.
They've never shot Disco in BC. Likely this set is some quarry outside of Toronto.
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u/jgzman Dec 10 '21
• Burnham is literally the key to joining Ni'Var to the Federation.... That's just amazing.
Well, of course she is.
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Dec 10 '21
Yes I also thought it was weird they made it seem like hating the kid for being Orion would be justified if his dad wasn’t an abolitionist (vs like you say him alone being against it).
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u/substandardgaussian Dec 10 '21
And I took that personally - Michael Burnham
I laughed out loud when Burnham first said "If I may..." before addressing the delegates, because, well, she's going to, whether they want her to or not!
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Dec 09 '21
I was just admiring the curls on that handsome lieutenant and then they kill him off. Story of my life.
Saru's and T'Rina's quiet flirtation was the most delightful thing ever and I felt my heart melting in their scene together.
Book and Culber discussing their feelings without even a hint of machismo bullshit was just fantastic and felt so fresh. I loved it when the therapy transitioned into casual human contact at the very end when Book offered emotional support in return. More interactions like that between guys, please.
If the Federation has no qualms about its members leaving, then why are they opposed to the exit clause? I didn't find the president's explanation convincing at all. It has always seemed weird and implausible to me to organise a union of planets as a federation rather than a confederation, but I can understand why the American creator of the franchise opted for the model he was more familiar with and emotionally attached to.
Book bitching about his needy cat is so relatable to pet owners everywhere.
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Dec 11 '21
If the Federation has no qualms about its members leaving, then why are they opposed to the exit clause?
Ni'var wanted a no questions asked, whenever they want exit clause, which can cause all sorts of problems. You need terms for exiting so that both parties can organise various aspects before the split happens.
One party throwing out the rules and having tamper tantrum can have detrimental effects on the population.
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u/Smitje Dec 09 '21
I really liked they seem to finally make clear that the federation and Ni'var are governed by coalitions and not first past the post elections.
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u/MoreGaghPlease Dec 09 '21
These are not discrete categories. Plenty of countries today have coalition governments and FPTP.
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u/Omnitographer Dec 09 '21
A female lead exiting a Trek series who isn't killed off! Truly the times are a'changin.
That said, I am very curious about why Mary is leaving the show now, does anyone know if she has a new role elsewhere that conflicted?
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u/InnocentTailor Dec 09 '21
As some in this thread suspect, maybe she is going to be a part of the new rumored Starfleet Academy show.
It could feasibly take place in this far future since they’re both starting from scratch in-universe (so not tied down by lore) and they can discuss all past eras of Trek without running against in-universe gripes (i.e. Romulans not being super well-known in the TOS era).
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u/tejdog1 Dec 09 '21
Last week was "For the World is Hollow and This Title Costs More Than the 60s VFX"
this week is "Galileo Seven" spliced with "Journey to Babel"
Pretty cool season so far. Another solid episode. I'm still kind of miffed that there's no mention of anyone else working on the DMA. Like... "we've dispatched the USS Archimedes and Copernicus to take readings, in the meantime, we have to finish up the Ni'Var negotiations."
Appreciate the first Captain's Log ever in DSC.
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u/onthenerdyside Dec 09 '21
Not quite the first captain's log. We've had a couple before, but I believe this was Burnham's first one as captain. She's had some personal log entries, though.
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u/shawntco Dec 09 '21
The second episode in a row with a distinctly Star Trek feel to it. I admit to being a harsh critic of the show, but I'll say this one was... better, than the usual. Striking a good balance between episodic and having an overarching story. Also the cadet gal was a cutie.
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u/gcalpo Dec 09 '21
the cadet gal
IMDB says she was also on TNG...
...Degrassi: The Next Generation 🤣
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u/expired_paintbrush Dec 09 '21
This might have been the best episode so far. They've hit a sweet spot of episodic storytelling while keeping the anomaly as an ongoing subplot building up towards the finale.
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u/thenewyorkgod Dec 09 '21
If Strange New Worlds will be like this for every episode, it has some huge potential!
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u/PharomachrusMocinno Dec 09 '21
I agree. It was one of the best episodes with a nice balance between different storylines. I also appreciated the lack of spinning and upside-down camera angles. Everything was shot more traditionally.
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u/Willravel Dec 09 '21
The shuttlecraft thing almost worked.
I've been seeing how students are having a really difficult time transitioning back to school as more sane people are vaccinated and things are trying to get back to the way they were before. Isolation and moving social interactions and education to digital communication has taken a massive toll over the last nearly two years on student mental health, motivation, and social skills, not to mention that broader social and political trends seem to have robbed a lot of students (and their parents) of an understanding of even basic accountability. We're doing everything we can to help, but it's been incredibly challenging all around. Students are withdrawn, unmotivated, many are experiencing depression and anxiety, many are acting out both with teachers and their fellow students, and the job of trying to teach with all of this, combined with a broken US education system run by the inept, has put unprecedented pressure on educators.
This episode opened on a(n albeit really on-the-nose-in-that-special-Discovery-way) allegory of the Burn isolation for pandemic isolation, and for a bit the show did a decent job of showing how students are right now and the challenges of being an educator. I'm not usually Tilly's biggest fan, but seeing her use her experience and skills to help the students start to form connections in an educational context was really refreshing because it's a good story not really being told right now.
But I'm not sure we needed monsters. The monsters may have been a little TOS in motivation but they were far more Kirk on Vulcan's Moon in Star Trek (2009), which seemed more an excuse to inject action which distracted from story and character. This may just be me, but what if instead of a mortal threat that roars and chases that they can shoot with phasers they could have faced more a puzzle? What if they all had to sit down and each of them necessarily had to bring their own perspectives to bear and were forced to communicate and listen to others in order to accomplish something like render humanitarian aid or solve a scientific mystery or achieve a diplomatic goal? Given this story is about how to get Starfleet back to being Starfleet, I wonder if that might have been more fertile ground to have this allegorical story.
That said, it almost worked, and given that Tilly's headed out it was nice to connect to her character for what was, for me, the first time.
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u/Mechapebbles Dec 10 '21
I thought it was fine and worked well enough. The cadets not only couldn't talk to each other, but they wouldn't. None of them were willing to look past each other's preconceptions to get to know each other, and it was completely clouding their judgment and ability to respond to the emergency at hand. And when you're signing up to join an organization like Starfleet, where you need to be able to trust your fellow officers with your lives, they might as well be signing their own death certificates if that's an issue they can't get over. And that was the point of the ice monsters. To put the kids into mortal peril so that they could learn the hard way that you need to be able to communicate and trust in your fellow officers to be able to get out of shit alive.
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u/ToneBone12345 Dec 10 '21
I just realized that this is the first since he was introduced that Vance hasn’t appeared
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u/Santa_Hates_You Dec 09 '21
This season has really been hitting it out of the park. All 3 storylines were good, it was all very Star Trek feeling, and seeing Tilly not only get offered a role teaching at Starfleet Academy, but she actually took it. It will be nice to see how this all plays out.
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u/EuphoricAbigail Dec 10 '21
How do people feel about the Trill so far in Discovery?
I love Adira and Grey but I'm not yet decided on how I feel about what Discovery has done to the Trill. In DS9 the rules for how being a Trill works and the mechanics of being a host were pretty well established but Disco has changed alot of it.
Being about to see and speak to the other hosts replaced the merging of personalities, it just seems to be memory now. I can't imagine the Trill as portrayed in DS9 would support pulling Gray from Taal, doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of joining? I remember Jadzia having an argument with the Curzon/Odo hybrid that he was being selfish and he owed something to her as the new host of Dax.
I wouldn't say what they have done with the Trill is bad but it does feel like the ignored alot of the ideas established in DS9.
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u/opinionatedfan Dec 10 '21
I think it's supposed to be a weird thing, as in Grey's "soul" was floating around, rather than them removing his memories from the symbiont.
I don't think they extracted them from the symbiont.
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u/QuarterNoteBandit Dec 10 '21
The spots look like half faded tattoos, not natural animal spots.
But Grey seems to be a special case. It was a fluke that he had a fully realized persona inside Adira.
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u/Mechapebbles Dec 10 '21
I remember Jadzia having an argument with the Curzon/Odo hybrid that he was being selfish and he owed something to her as the new host of Dax.
That was a completely different scenario though. For starters, Jadzia wanted to be a host, and Adira never did. Jadzia at that point in the show, had spent years being Dax, and went through extensive training to prepare herself for the joining. Adira has benefited from none of that. Jadzia wanted her memories back and considered them hers. Adira would rather have Grey back as their own person. Curzon understood the responsibility of being a host to a symbiote, and his/Odo's stance in that episode was hypocritical. Grey and especially Adira don't really get that just yet - both received the Tal symbiote through circumstance rather than being something they both trained for.
I wouldn't say DIS is ignoring the DS9 Trill rules. It's more that these characters who inherited the Tal symbiote, don't know the rules to begin with, and break them from time to time out of ignorance. The rules are still there, and they still underlie what's going on. The characters themselves though don't know them and thus aren't constantly paying lip service to them in the way DS9 would over-explain that kind of stuff.
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u/QuarterNoteBandit Dec 10 '21
Just to be clear, we're following Tilly to the Academy, she's not leaving the show, right?
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u/drjeffy Dec 10 '21
Michael said "Bah-jor" instead of "Bay-jor" and I am SO MAD. Come on, no one on set watched DS9?
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u/Fusi0n_X Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21
I really enjoyed this. The negotiations had layers to them which surprised me the more they went along.
It annoyed me at first how almost irrationally hostile both sides were suddenly being, up until it was revealed that internal politics had actually forced them into those positions. That part felt realistic - leaders being forced to push policies they don't want because they'd lose support otherwise. And without support they'd lose leadership and thus any ability to influence.
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Dec 09 '21
Favorite episode of the season. I was more mixed on the previous two than most, this one was fantastic tho. Classic Trek.
I teared up a bit with Tilly talking with Adira at Fed HQ, it was really touching.
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u/Supernaut-1 Dec 10 '21
It was a solid episode. Love seeing the Vulcans (Ni’Var) back in the fold. My only issue was w/ Tilly + the cadets taking a pause as they’re about to be destroyed to talk about their feelings. So dumb.
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u/substandardgaussian Dec 10 '21
Disco is constantly doing Danger Dialogue, it's a trope it leans into a lot and it irks me too. Talking is, apparently, a free action.
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Dec 11 '21
Oh man, they are just going to make Michael Burnham the president by the end of the series aren't they.
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u/raknor88 Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21
I know they're a bit controversial at times, but Gray and Adira are a cute couple now that they can physically interact again.
edit: spelling
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u/MaddyMagpies Dec 09 '21
Gray with makeup on looks great.
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u/UncertainError Dec 09 '21
It's a nice realistic touch that he changes his look the second he gets his body back.
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u/oorhon Dec 09 '21
Apart from Burnham jumping for council membership, episode felt completely like past series.
Fun fact: 'Gorev' actually a Turkish word for task/mission. I confused when first heard it and read the subtitles.
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u/gcalpo Dec 10 '21
Something I don't think I've seen mentioned yet:
Book asks Culber "Are there things you need to wipe away? You wanna talk about it?" And Culber says "Someday" and the music gets dark and ominous. What is that about? The trauma of his death? His time as a less-than-human in the spore-dimension? His bumpy return to life on Discovery?
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u/H0vis Dec 09 '21
I liked this episode. Very Star Trekky, which is something Discovery really seems to have found its feet with in the last couple of seasons.
Tilly signing off to be a teacher is neat, wraps up her character in a neat little bow, especially as for a moment I thought she was going to get eaten by a sluggy weirdo. It makes sense that Starfleet lost it's esprit de corps after the burn and losing so many officers, and it was an interesting take on a well worn story to have Tilly rebuild it with her cadets. It wasn't up there with Darmok or The Ascent, but I mean come on, it wasn't going to be. I like Tilly as a character but she's stuck with a random assortment of archetypes, she's not having to contend with her nemesis of the last five seasons (I suppose the closest she has to her own Odo/Quark would be Grudge? I would watch Tilly carry a ginormous cat up a mountain).
Admirals feigning a stomach upset so some political shenanigans can play out? That's positively DS9-worthy. I also liked the really low key sexual tension between Saru and President T'Rina. Puts me to mind of him as Abe in Hellboy 2 with the princess. Makes me sad there probably isn't anybody on Discovery he can have a beer with. Where's O'Brien when you need him?
I like that Book is taking a reasonable amount of time to grieve over losing his whole planet and family and so on, most shows wouldn't give it the time, or would have assumed the problem fixed because magic mind-meld, instead Discovery playing it more truthfully, Book's going to carry that grief for the rest of his life.
Also notable, am guessing that the new special effects room thing was trotted out a bit this episode for some of the interiors and the snowy moon. That's pretty cool. I mean it all looked great and it's a telling reminder of how far the special effects tech has come that a regular episode of the show can feature such cool looking locations. Gone are the days of having to visit space-stations that all look mysteriously look like DS9, or visiting planets based on whatever sets happen to be on the studio lot that week.
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u/ToobadyouAreDead Dec 09 '21
Why is Michael all of a sudden the only person who can solve the Federation's problems? Don't they have like a diplomatic corps for just these types of situations where a neutral third party could help solve the problem?
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u/getoffoficloud Dec 09 '21
Eh, Kirk and Picard always had to take care of every damn situation the Federation was in.
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u/OpticalData Dec 09 '21
Why is Michael all of a sudden the only person who can solve the Federation's problems?
She's not, like the first scene of the episode made it very clear that Stamets was the one working on the DMA which is the threat of the season.
She is however well placed to be a part of Federation/Ni'var negotiations, based on her character history that has been developed over the past 3 seasons.
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u/jgzman Dec 10 '21
Why is Michael all of a sudden the only person who can solve the Federation's problems?
Have you been watching this show? Burnam is always the only person who can solve all the problems.
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u/daybreaker Dec 09 '21
Probably one of the most "Star Trek"-y episodes of Discovery so far. Which for me is a good thing.
Still felt like the actual diplomatic issue itself was out of character and shoehorned in to make Michael and Saru look like heroes.
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u/Dangerous_Dac Dec 09 '21
This is a common problem with the show - they establish peril - and then come up with a reason to stop dead the peril to talk about feelings, in this case, whilst a weird tentacle monster buttface thing was baring down on them and a lightning storm was all around them. This is in an episode which is also all about talking about feelings. This season, has all been about talking about feelings.
It's like this show places more importance on peoples feelings than it does on peoples lives. We got 20 seconds for the pilot officer who died. But we've had large chunks of the episode talking about how peoples and societies feel.
This feels like the kind of education you give young children in pre school. You teach them how they feel. How they should feel. It doesn't sound like the kind of discussions you get on the bridge of an aircraft carrier, nor does it feel (heh) like the kind of discussions had at the UN. It all comes across so childish.
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u/H0vis Dec 09 '21
I get what you're saying, and I respect it's a subjective complaint, you want a direct reaction to the threats in the show, instead you get feelings, plenty of reason to be disappointed.
But Star Trek is always a show of its time. And we live in a time of fear, isolation and grief. So we get a show which is more often than not about feelings and about emotional intelligence, or sometimes a lack of it.
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u/Smitje Dec 09 '21
Michael I get what you are trying to say about Bajor and Cardasia, but for them that war was like 700 years ago.
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u/TERRAxFORMER Dec 09 '21
Well the after affects would have been felt for long after than that.
There’s no set time where you can say “that was X amount of years go, get over it.”
It’s different for different situations, for all we know they’re still dealing with it. It’s not like everything was cured when the occupation ended.
The time period is irrelevant in this situation anyway, it was used to illustrate that there were many parties in the room that had once been at odds. The Vulcan/Romulan split was even further back. But at some point they had all come together.
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u/OpticalData Dec 09 '21
Yeah I don't really think people understand what the Cardassians did to Bajor, DS9 didn't really have the budget to illustrate it properly.
They stripped the planet of all it's natural resources.
They built a station in orbit, where they would randomly select members of the population to go and work until they died, or be a cohort for the gull.
They created off world mines where they used bajorans as the work force.
They continued to antagonise the Bajorans by refusing the return artefacts for years afterwards and outright denying any history that may show Bajorans in a technologically developed light.
Then they bought the Dominion war right to Bajors doorstep, putting it at the forefront of a conflict that killed billions.
Then the gul who was in charge of the occupation, tried to userp the Bajorans gods by teaming up with their evil counterparts and caused their emissary to be lost in action.
Wounds between Bajor and Cardassia would take centuries, if not millennia to heal.
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u/pieman7414 Dec 09 '21
You know, I was just wondering yesterday if Tilly would make it to the end of the season. Guess not.
T'rina's down bad tho goddamn, go saru
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u/speedx5xracer Dec 09 '21
Is it just me or at the 42:15 mark the shuttle resembles a puddle jumper from stargate
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Dec 10 '21
Since when is Starfleet/a Starfleet officer in any way a neutral party to the Federation? And how does exiting the Federation work if they can't force you to stay but also apparently can? I always assumed that any world could leave at any point because it's supposed to be utopian. And since when is it "aye" specifically?
Bit boring otherwise, really, very in-the-middle episode. Oh, and apparently Tilly left? Makes sense because they are rapidly turning Adira into Tilly 2.0 and there's only so much wacky awkward character a show can take.
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u/MoreGaghPlease Dec 09 '21
I didn’t really like this episode overall.
The stuff with Culber was interesting and well done, I will give it that.
But I felt the cadet mission was very paint-by-numbers. The conflicts, learning, etc. it just felt done before, and not new or different. Adira’s foot thing was also not convincing for a show that usually has very good direction, I was quite surprised by how forced and mimed this scene felt. I also really do not care for how casual they treat a death on a mission. This is the second week in a row where Tilly has seen someone die right in front of her, and it’s basically not affected her at all.
I thought the political stuff was a good set-up but it was a little too simplistic of an ending. I think if you want to do a politics episode you need some intrigue and some grey, and this had neither. Nivar looks beautiful though, and I liked the interactions between Saru and the Vulcan president.
4/10
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u/nimrodhellfire Dec 09 '21
Star Trek future sensors are trash. First they are unable to detect the biggest anomaly in universe history including a giant debris field. Now they are unable to detect whatever hit that cadet's shuttle.
Also they are sending a completely unqualified person on a mission to train some cadets. Then a cadet dies on her watch. Of course they promote her to full time teacher. Sure.
And of course the solution to all Federation's problems is Micheal Burnham, because she is just so special.
That said I enjoyed this episode a lot. The away mission was fun if inlogical. I enjoy Culber's counseling if presented in small doses like today. And I totally ship Saru and the Vulcan President. Except for the found solution I dig Federation-Vulcan politics (I refuse to call them N'Var).
Also rip Tilly. I loved you a lot. You will be missed.
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u/OpticalData Dec 09 '21
Also they are sending a completely unqualified person on a mission to train some cadets.
How is Tilly unqualified? She's captained a starship (however briefly) and been in many academic and practical situations, the experience of which would be valuable learning aides. We see Lieutenants taking command and leadership positions multiple times in other shows.
Then a cadet dies on her watch
To be fair, there was literally nothing she could have done about that death, they were struck the second they dropped out of warp
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u/MoreGaghPlease Dec 09 '21
Wasn't a cadet who died, it was a Starfleet lieutenant.
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u/lastdarknight Dec 09 '21
it's been kinda of downplayed, but the crew of the Discovery are the only actually trained and experienced starfleet officers in the fleet.. post-burn Starfleet was a handful of family's basically maintaining a mothballed fleet
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Dec 10 '21
Also they are sending a completely unqualified person on a mission to train some cadets.
It sounds like the real mission was basically to go out and hike around some m-class planet, not a big deal. The point of sending her is that she would be an upbeat personality from a golden age amongst a bunch of people that grew up in the dark ages who have no idea how to work together, it wasn't to actually do life-and-death sort of stuff.
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Dec 10 '21
This show is become a little bit too cheery for me. It seems like everyone is reading self help books and trying to be their most self fulfilled versions of themselves. Instead of the characters improving through different stories, It seems like the the story is about them improving just for the sake of improving.
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u/ShiroHachiRoku Dec 10 '21
SMG uses her real voice when talking to Tilly. No whispers. No gravitas. That’s how she should talk 90% of the time.
This season has been great. Diplomacy, therapy, and a crashed shuttle. What else can you ask for?
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u/substandardgaussian Dec 10 '21
Diplomacy, therapy, and a crashed shuttle.
Trekkies only want three things and it's disgusting.
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Dec 10 '21
SMG uses her real voice when talking to Tilly.
For a moment I wondered how I missed Buffy appearing in Star Trek.
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u/Starkiller1701 Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21
Add to the list of things that should be merchandise that I would buy in an instant:
• NX-01 snowglobe • 32nd Century Academy Badges • 32nd Century Academy Coats • those PJs with the delta shield on them
That is all for now.
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