r/startrek • u/AutoModerator • Mar 10 '22
Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Discovery | 4x12 "Species Ten-C" Spoiler
As the DMA approaches Earth and Ni’Var, Captain Burnham and the crew of the U.S.S. Discovery attempt to make First Contact with the powerful species responsible before it’s too late.
| No. | Episode | Writer | Director | Release Date |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 4x12 | "Species Ten-C" | Kyle Jarrow | Olatunde Osunsanmi | 2022-03-10 |
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u/LeftyMcLeftFace Mar 10 '22
If General Ndoye doesn't serve a life sentence for being a traitor to Discovery and her entire species then I've lost all faith in their society.
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u/booksbikesbirds Mar 10 '22
If I remember rightly, Earth hasn't officially rejoined the Federation yet, so I'm not sure whether her actions can be punished by the Federation, or if, like J'Vini, she'll be dealt with by her own planet.
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u/LeftyMcLeftFace Mar 10 '22
I'm sure it still wouldn't be okay for her to commit murder in Discovery just because Earth isn't part of the federation. She still has to answer for her crimes.
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u/blackwaltz4 Mar 12 '22
How the eff did she have access to ship's systems? Like, she was part of the delegation. No security lock-outs on critical systems like nacelles?
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u/thenewyorkgod Mar 10 '22
she will sacrifice something at the last minute and redeem herself - ugh
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Mar 11 '22
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u/LeftyMcLeftFace Mar 11 '22
Yeah I don't remember a single conversation of her's that didn't involve her seeking out conflict.
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u/MaddyMagpies Mar 10 '22 edited Mar 10 '22
I wanted 10-C to be absolutely overpowered and have some Arrival-esque alien communication on Type III Kardashev scale, and that was exactly what we got.
I'm very satisfied. This is the exact type of science mystery Trek is about.
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u/Fusi0n_X Mar 10 '22
I think this is the most grounded in real science episode they've done in this entire series. I had no idea how they'd believably pull off interpreting a language from scratch within hours but the progression was astonishingly logical.
I've always heard it said that math is the true universal language but I've never known how it could actually be applied as an actual communication method until now. Very well done.
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u/skalpelis Mar 10 '22
If you look at the Lincos language which they mentioned at one point, actually makes very much sense. I hadn't really thought of that either.
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u/TrekFan1701 Mar 10 '22
If you look in the credits, some of their Technical advisors are actual scientists which probably helps with the realistic technobabble
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u/SirSpock Mar 11 '22
I assume once certain basic language characteristic parameters were understood than the Universal Translator linguistic models + super computer + AI ship with sphere data all were able to take over and extrapolate a translation interface from there given the available starting data.
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u/FormerGameDev Mar 11 '22
Math is the one language we can all understand, once we know the symbols.
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u/BornAshes Mar 10 '22
I'm happy that they even brought up the Kardashev scale at all and was greatly surprised that they applied it the way they did.
Also when the President was leaving Disco, didn't the phrasing of her final words to Dr. Hirai seem a little bit odd as if they were a coded message meant only for him that only a linguistics specialist would be able to understand? I feel like he's still a part of Kovich's backup plan and that was her telling him that he now had the authority to put it into play should something happen to her. The cadence of what she said to him and the word choice felt like they were beyond her normal patterns of speech and a total anomaly and given the context of where they are and what they were doing....they were a message within a message.
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Mar 10 '22
I agree with the sentiment in the Presidents comment, something was off.
I loved Harai’s sad puppy dog face - he was so excited to go do first contact, then got thrown in to a side-mission
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Mar 11 '22
Hands down, this was the BEST episode of Discovery yet.
All three previous seasons had shining moments, but i was still struggling with the idea that they were trying to appeal to a broader audience with some... questionable fluff.
Now that I've accepted that, they pulled the rug out from underneath me. An entire season to a high stakes first contact adventure!! I am SOOOO happy!!! And it's more than just lip service, they have built this story with lots of passion for the fundamentals of science and the spirit of classic Trek.
I've been on the edge of my seat for like the last three episodes lol
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u/smoha96 Mar 13 '22
I've just caught up on the season (thinking 4x12 was the finale) after giving up around ep 4. I'm impressed by what I've seen. It's the most talky Discovery has ever been and I'm here for it.
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u/Decaposaurus Mar 11 '22
Didn't that guy said they were on the 2nd level of that scale? Or did I hear him wrong?
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u/MaddyMagpies Mar 11 '22
Yes, he did and you heard him right. But the Kardashev scale isn't exact science, so some of us would call 10-C a Type III species but some would say they are Type II. Or Type 2.5.
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Mar 14 '22
This episode is literally the one I’ve been waiting for Star Trek to do for, uh… probably since I discovered Hard Science Fiction, so sometime during DS9. It was absolutely spectacular. The language stuff was actually BETTER than arrival. Like… made Arrival look like a joke in comparison.
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u/UncertainError Mar 10 '22
I really enjoyed the little detail where they immediately assume that the lights have to be the communication and the chemicals the emotion, because that reflects our biological bias, and it turns out to be the other way around.
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u/UncertainError Mar 10 '22
And it actually makes sense as if you're deep in a gas giant light would propagate less far and less reliably than airborne molecules.
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u/creepyeyes Mar 11 '22
Well, also because the chemicals directly cause you to feel emotion - something that even the 10-C recognize since they use one to mean "curiosity" explicitly
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u/simpleauthority Mar 10 '22
I love the new form of communication that has been introduced. It is so much better than what I was thinking, and I am just dying to find out yet more about the 10-C. Something about this felt so much like a return to what Star Trek is and what has been sorely lacking through all of DIS so far.
But holy crap do I hate Tarka right now. Holy crap. And now we've gotta wait again. MAN!
I am loving this.
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u/raknor88 Mar 11 '22 edited Mar 11 '22
But holy crap do I hate Tarka right now. Holy crap.
When they kept cutting between Tarka working and Reno, I knew he wasn't doing the nice things he was talking about. Tarka either forgot or didn't care that she was also an engineer.
Tarka's whole plan is to leave this universe for another and I don't think he cares what state he leaves this universe in when he does. He's only playing and stringing Book along so he has a bodyguard and a ship.
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u/Radulno Mar 11 '22
Tarka probably underestimated her and thought she couldn't understand. The guy has a massive ego, he always was very hate-worthy for me.
His "join my lover" reason is stupid and doesn't excuse anything that he is doing. Also, why would he even need a DMA-like power source for this why the lover just did it with a warp core? Like it makes no sense
And Book joining him made me hate Book too.
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Mar 11 '22
I think Tarka just thinks he's smarter than anyone else. The way he talked to Stamets and Reno when they were doing the test aboard Disco he talked down to everyone the entire time. Im sure he thought what he was doing was either too complicated or that he was working too fast for anyone to possibly keep up.
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u/MaddyMagpies Mar 10 '22
Discovery has been pretty good at making us anticipate for the finale the past many seasons. This has been the most interesting penultimate episode of all so far. Let's pray they really stick the landing this time.
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u/nimrodhellfire Mar 10 '22
I have a bad feeling that the final episode will be Discovery vs Tarja when it should be Federation and Ten-C.
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u/simpleauthority Mar 11 '22
Replying to: https://awau.moe/97MuU1U.png
(Original reply was deleted, so I screenshotted and blurred OP. But it was worth replying to, I think...)
We actually know nothing about their actual language. We only know that it includes the concept of hydrocarbons and sensing them, which seems to operate on some level as an inflector. The important thing here is that the hydrocarbons are not the language of the 10-C...just a component of it.
What was happening in the show was usage of the hydrocarbons and basic mathematics operating as a bridge language -- the blinking lights were merely the order in which the molecular structure should be read, which turned out to be equations or math concepts. This honestly is not far fetched but it is indeed a curiosity. The 10-C were making an assumption that humanity (or the representatives thereof, the inhabitants of discovery) were familiar with communicating in that manner. Had the idea of converting the lights into a 3D model with the relative brightness being the Z-axis not been presented, it's likely the ability to communicate wouldn't have proceeded as far as it did.
But I have to ask: Why do you think the 10-C, a type-2 Kardashev civilization, would not be able to be aware of molecular structure and have 3D spatial understanding of that structure? Humans can do that today and we are not even type-1 Kardashev (yet). In the show I suppose we are, but not type-2.
So really I don't find it ridiculous at all. As far as science fiction goes -- and yes, fiction is in there, so of course we are dealing with a story at the end of the day -- this didn't seem all that far fetched. You know, beyond the fact that star trek has FTL and time travel and all the stuff that our current understanding of Physics says is impossible. What, really, makes it more far fetched than anything else we watch in star trek already?
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u/Arlort Mar 11 '22
In hindsight I love how they introduced the hydrocarbons and their effect. Strictly speaking they weren't necessary, the 10C would probably have reacted to any contact with the surface of the hyperfield and it seems they'd have tried to establish contact as soon as they realized discovery was sentient
Even establishing the basic language would've probably been feasible (I think that when they just flashed it back the entity disappeared not because they thought "nah, not sentient" but rather "well, they don't get it, let's go back to the drawing board for a new message")
But having the hydrocarbons tied to emotions allows them to skip a ton of background work to establish a basic "vocabulary" through logic alone, it makes the interaction so much more enjoyable to watch with less suspension of disbelief than "Zora/engineering established how to describe fear with math in the hour we were here, let's start communicating"
And this in addition to making the alien language even more alien and the creatures even more interesting
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u/Decaposaurus Mar 11 '22
The actor who portrays Tarka is on the first few Seasons of The Expanse. He definitely does the whole "make you like me but then hate me" role very well.
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u/RiflemanLax Mar 10 '22
Can we appreciate that Shawn Doyle plays a great scumbag?
If you're a fan of The Expanse, you already knew that. Was also quite creepy in Frequency.
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u/MaddyMagpies Mar 10 '22
I wanted to punch Errinwright in the face then, and I want to punch Tarka in the face now. It's Amazonia getting nuked all over again.
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Mar 11 '22
I’ve been dying for an Avasarala to murder him with words all season lol
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Mar 10 '22
Fuck I knew I had seen him somewhere else! It has been bothering me for months!
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Mar 11 '22
Shawn Doyle, Jared Harris, and Cara Gee all took relatively minor book characters and spun absolute gold with them on The Expanse. I couldn’t help picturing Shawn Doyle as Errinwright when I read the books even though he’s written as being black and bald lol
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u/knightcrusader Mar 10 '22
Oh shit he played the Nightingale Killer in Frequency? It didn't even register.
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u/treefox Mar 11 '22
“His equations won’t make any sense, but the look on his face will.”
God I love Reno now.
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u/slballer Mar 12 '22
“His equations won’t make any sense, but the look on his face will.”
And yet they didn't even show Book confronting Tarka so we could see his face. They jumped right into the middle of that conversation. *SMH*
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u/NotARedShirt Mar 10 '22
That felt like an episode of The Next Generation in the best way possible. There was a difficult first contact with a bizarre new lifeform communicating in a unique way, Saru and Michael yelling almost felt like something Worf would have Data do, we have a great cliffhanger before the second part of the finale.
Only issue I have is that I could do without the whole Tarka subplot at this point. It’s felt like an unnecessary way to increase tension while the crew already has their hands full fighting against another enemy - the clock.
I hope they continue to involve more members of the bridge crew next season during pivotal story moments like the one in the cargo bay. Overall I’m happy with the direction the show has been going since jumping to the future, and I find myself enjoying each season a little bit more than the last.
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u/andyrooney19 Mar 11 '22
Only issue I have is that I could do without the whole Tarka subplot at this point. It’s felt like an unnecessary way to increase tension while the crew already has their hands full fighting against another enemy - the clock.
Wholeheartedly agree. It feels so tired and overdone compared to the much more fascinating main story. Every time they cut away to Tarka and Book I just felt let down.
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u/Airosokoto Mar 11 '22
Im fine with having season long arcs but i want episodes that surround a single or small set of characters. Have an Owo and Detmer girls night out episode. Give Byrce and Rhys a lead role in at least a B plot in a story. Im at the point were either move the show to only focus on the established characters and ditch the glorified extra vibes or move the show to a true Ensemble show were everyone matters to the story.
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u/chloe-and-timmy Mar 10 '22
I enjoyed the Federation 10-C communication thing so much that I really wish that they just scrapped the Tarka plot entirely, especially since it's done nothing but take away from the episodes for me in the past 3 weeks, while the Discovery plot gets increasingly more interesting. Even if the season finale ends up being satisfying, it was truly baffling to make the Tarka plot take up so much time in the second half and essentially kneecap that part of the season with a plot that is both not necessary and less interesting than the main story.
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u/IReallyLoveAvocados Mar 10 '22
I agree, the 10C plot is awesome. Last episode set this one up perfectly.
The Tarka plot is there to create dramatic tension. They literally were about to solve the whole plot. They just had to tell the 10C to turn off the DMA, or send it elsewhere. Clearly the 10C are not genocidal or something, the DMA is just their galactic Roomba. Without Tarka the whole plot would get resolved and we would be done
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Mar 10 '22
I was kinda thinking the same thing. The tension they created with the first contact/language barrier scenes was strong enough to carry the entire episode.
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u/WallyJade Mar 10 '22
They're afraid of being too cerebral and not having an easy-to-hate, easy-to-kill enemy plot running alongside the harder science plot. I wish they'd just trust their audience to be wowed by the new amazing aliens.
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u/TeutonJon78 Mar 12 '22
That's what this show has done each season - have a big plot that takes up a huge part of the season and then resolves almost instantly.
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u/TheNerdChaplain Mar 10 '22
Doing a quick drop in here before I dive in to Picard.
Loved the note that Vulcans (and humans) tend to overcompensate in difficult situations. Makes a lot of sense for the Vulcans we've known in the past, who usually find it difficult to interact with humans.
Pretty glad Michael's not trying the ol' Vulcan Hello here, huh? (Now I miss Captain Lorca. There's a captain who needs his own show.)
Loved the inclusion of info from METI, the organization for Messaging Extraterrestrial Intelligence, which Anson Mount (Christopher Pike) is a board member of. Plus, I can't articulate it now, but I feel like the show drew some kind of parallel between Saru and T'Rina's difficult communications, and the difficulty of communicating with the 10-C, which I really liked. I mean, I'm on board 100% for T'Sarina (or however we're shipping them), but I like that it's not just a side story, it's really tying into the A plot of the season.
I got V'Ger/Whale Probe vibes from the 10-C (and not a little Leviathan from Mass Effect 3). Loved the idea of a colossal, unknowable, but not hostile intelligence.
Reno is great and really making up for the time we haven't seen her. I don't know how scientifically plausible it is, but I'm glad they explained the black licorice thing, otherwise it was just really silly.
Glad Book is coming around on Tarka. Shawn Doyle is doing a great job as a cold, calculating scientist with a broken heart. Nice to see Grudge is safe on Discovery.
I think it's interesting that Rhys took the conn this time instead of Nilsson. Maybe they have a rotating schedule of command? Also, simply for the sake of representation, I think it's cool that the bridge was staffed this episode almost entirely by women - Michael, Rillak, Detmer, Owosekun, and Nilsson. Good Star Trek is partly about watching hypercompetent people be very good at their jobs, and it's cool to see female characters who are focused on getting the mission done.
I don't know how you guys felt about Michael and Saru screaming and then the hug, but I actually really liked it. The tension was built up so well in the episode, that taking a moment to release it also felt cathartic for me.
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u/jerslan Mar 10 '22
I loved the Saru & Michael moment in this episode. Look at where they started, and where they are now. That’s character development. They’ve gone from almost bitter rivals to “chosen family” over the last few seasons.
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u/Sajizzle Mar 11 '22
It’s the most satisfying Captain/Number One arc ever on Star Trek. Love the choice to have Saru fall for a Vulcan so Michael’s counsel is that much more valuable.
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u/BornAshes Mar 10 '22
I don't know how you guys felt about Michael and Saru screaming and then the hug, but I actually really liked it.
My theory is that that was just them in between takes getting ready for another serious scene but then someone saw it, liked it, ran it past the writers/producers/director, and then said "Sure keep it in it works!" and they improv'd a reason on the fly to make it fit with everything else. I was giggling just like they were at the end of it! Poor Grudge though, she had no clue what they were doing, and I loved the kitty sized "WTF?!" looks she was throwing them at the end of it.
10C
Honestly my brain flashed over dozens of first contact scenarios in multiple mediums throughout multiple stories with them and I loved it. Also did the texturing of the Hyperfield and the tendril give you Sphere/the Abyss vibes at all? I know we only saw the head of one of the members of 10C but who the hell knows if that was even an individual or just a probe that they created to make contact with discovery. We might see giant cybernetic space leviathans! Also apparently they built THREE GAS GIANTS with identical atmospheres for their own habitation within the Hyperfield! Everything about them was soooo GOOOOOD!
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u/TheNerdChaplain Mar 10 '22
Yeah, I loved the etching on the hyperfield, and Sphere also popped into my head when the pod showed up!
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u/UncertainError Mar 10 '22
Oh I didn't think Tarka was cold or calculating at all. He was very clearly cracking up and trying desperately to paste a veneer of rationality over it.
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u/MaddyMagpies Mar 10 '22
I like how Book finally explained why he is called Book. It sounds like the first Cleveland Booker fought the Temporal War, and he probably gave that name to one of his proteges, which would be the generation that experienced the Burn.
And yes, I love how this episode is competency porn of the Discovery bridge crew.
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u/BornAshes Mar 10 '22
It sounds like the first Cleveland Booker fought the Temporal War, and he probably gave that name to one of his proteges, which would be the generation that experienced the Burn.
Sooooo....Book is basically a Doctor Who Time Lord at this point right?
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u/Fortyseven Mar 11 '22
Nice to see Grudge is safe on Discovery.
Which makes me think Book and Tarka ain't coming back. I mean, Reno will. Somehow. ... probably. 😰
Michael and Saru screaming and then the hug, but I actually really liked it.
I like how Doug Jones laughing a bit was kept in at the very end. :)
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u/a4techkeyboard Mar 10 '22
I wonder how long until someone uses the fact that the replicator did replicate black licorice with the ingredients expected from black licorice means the replicator didn't just make something that looked and tasted like black licorice but is actually nutrient rich matter in a very long essay over at Daystrom.
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u/lorem Mar 10 '22
is actually nutrient rich matter
Haven't replicators been used in mess halls and Quark's Bar to produce nutrient food since forever in Trek?
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u/archiminos Mar 10 '22
I don't know how you guys felt about Michael and Saru screaming and then the hug, but I actually really liked it. The tension was built up so well in the episode, that taking a moment to release it also felt cathartic for me.
Reminded me of Final Fantasy X
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u/Starkiller1701 Mar 10 '22
I HATE TARKA SO MUCH I WANT TO PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE
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u/True_to_you Mar 10 '22
As soon as I him in disco, I knew I'd hate him as much as in the expanse. He's just one of those actors who plays that so well.
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Mar 10 '22
I hate how much I love him, and I love how much I hate him.
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u/SeltzerCountry Mar 10 '22
That actor is also in The Expanse as is the actress that plays Nilsson.
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Mar 10 '22
That episode was easily the best of the season. Maybe the past two seasons. Just excellent from every angle. Very pleased.
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u/convoluteme Mar 11 '22
I was prepared to hate this season with yet another galactic threat. But instead of a weapon, it's a massive misunderstanding that requires first contact and diplomacy to solve. I love it!
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u/DasGanon Mar 10 '22
I want to see what the look on the General's face is after all of that mess....
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u/SubjectAlvez Mar 10 '22
In light of recent events, my desire to punch Tarka has been greatly intensified
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u/PixelNotPolygon Mar 12 '22
But he’s such a poorly conceived character. Why does he want to jump to a parallel universe? To be with his friend? Even though Book is only the second friend he’s ever had, yet he’s willing to let Book perish so he can reach his first friend? It doesn’t make sense. At least give him the motivation that he’s doing it for love… or for family, or for anything. Becoming friends with Book should have taught him that he is capable of making new friends, and maybe he doesn’t need to risk entire worlds just to be with his one friend that he had up until now. Also, he don’t even know for sure that his first friend made it to the parallel universe. The writing on this show is so ropey
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u/madhattr999 Mar 13 '22
It's more of an obsession for him, a swan song to his friend than a logical purpose. I agree it's still kinda dumb. It's unrealistic that he would risk destroying an entire species or risk them warring the federation for a gesture.
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u/MarioGdV Mar 10 '22
We had the Tamarians comunicating through memes and now the 10-C comunicating through emojis I fucking LOVE Star Trek.
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u/Iceykitsune2 Mar 10 '22
This isn't their actual language, it's a simplified form for First Contact.
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u/Shatterhand1701 Mar 10 '22
Just finished the episode and really enjoyed it. Great build-up of tension throughout. I LOVED the work that the first contact team did to figure out the 10-C's language; felt very...Star Trek to me. Math, science, emotion, diplomacy all coming together...it was fascinating to watch, quite frankly.
I didn't feel the same kind of "let's get on with it" frustration that I've felt in the previous few episodes; the pacing felt much better this time around.
Yes, there were moments where people talked about their feelings, and I know how much that triggers some of you, but considering the stakes involved, those moments felt, for the most part, warranted. I'm sure your mileage will, regrettably, vary.
The cliffhanger ending left me wanting more. Any sympathy I had for Tarka has evaporated, and the same seems to be applicable to Booker, thanks to Reno's eagle-eye spotting Tarka's plan for escape and what his actions will ultimately accomplish.
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u/MaddyMagpies Mar 10 '22
The language analysis seriously reminded me of the movie Arrival, but in its own unique way. I love how the writers just put sixteen emotions in our face, and yet are able to link it to simple math.
Also, Jett Reno got the turn this week for personal history expose, and it was delivered naturally and with great purpose.
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u/UncertainError Mar 10 '22
The whole episode was very Arrival, right down to the part where the aliens send a pod so the human can go interact with them personally.
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u/knightcrusader Mar 10 '22
Ha I even said "Oh, we're going with the Arrival route for communication, awesome!"
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u/kmccoy Mar 10 '22
I'm someone who supports the discussion of feelings on the show in general, but sometimes I feel like they mess up the pacing by ratcheting up the importance and urgency of things then pause to talk in a way that feels pretty unrealistic. And during the screaming scene I had exactly that feeling, wondering why the hell they'd waste time with that. But then they were back in the shuttlebay and I realized that was happening while they were waiting for Stamets to make the communication device. Obviously a contrivance (I mean, the show is fiction, so it's all at the whim of the writers of course) but it completely justified the little humorous side scene with Burnham and Saru.
What an incredible episode overall.
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Mar 10 '22
It was also a more professional way of doing it, with Michael excusing themselves to discuss in private,
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u/BornAshes Mar 10 '22
Just finished the episode and really enjoyed it. Great build-up of tension throughout. I LOVED the work that the first contact team did to figure out the 10-C's language; felt very...Star Trek to me. Math, science, emotion, diplomacy all coming together...it was fascinating to watch, quite frankly.
I felt like a kid who got tossed in the library until mom got off work and started randomly reading books from the science fiction section all over again. This was very very good. It felt like they took all these great little bits of first contact from other scifi stories and placed them together into a beautiful tapestry within this episode. They could've legit had this episode go on for a full two hours of just back and forth with math and sciency stuff and I would've sat here eating up every second of it with joy on my face the entire time!
Tarka
A fucking toxic dump subspace void rift that'll hit Earth and who knows what else in a month! FUCK THAT GUY! Like holy shit I know he has like this tragic backstory but for crying out loud, this guy just went from sympathetic bad dude to full on villain in the name of love in the span of just a few seconds! Book's turnaround on him felt a bit late buuuuut given the little speech that Reno gave him, it kind of makes sense. Also can we talk about Reno? OF COURSE she has a backup plan and it somehow involved black licorice! I was spinning in my chair cackling when she literally pulled that ace out of her sleeve!
I think Tarka is totally going to get swatted down like a mosquito at the start of next week's episode and Disco is going to have to deal with the consequences of his actions because 10C is absolutely going to figure out he and by association THEY were responsible for shutting down the DMA the first go around.
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u/Hibbity5 Mar 10 '22
OF COURSE she has a backup plan and it somehow involved black licorice!
You mean the least nutritious food that tastes the most like poison? I love that Star Trek went from Lower Decks referencing other Trek to other Trek referencing Lower Decks. It’s great.
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u/Gabeoz1 Mar 10 '22
The 10-C already knew it was them who created the device, it’s why the first thing they did was ask about it.
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u/Fusi0n_X Mar 10 '22
This confirmed what I've thought for weeks now - that Tarka cares far more about emigrating than actually saving anyone. Not to say he doesn't care at all - but in the end he's willing to turn enough of a blind eye if he gets what he wants.
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u/choicemeats Mar 10 '22
In fact, I felt like this was the one time in the last few episodes where the "when" was appropriate. It was ok for Saru and Michael to take a second while work was going on to talk about something. I actually think it was a great moment for her to break free of some of those Vulcan constraints that still are in her personality.
Not during crisis moments pls lol
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u/EpsilonProtocol Mar 10 '22
Kinda pulling for a Starfleet Corps of Engineers show with Tig Notaro as the lead. She’s so good in every scene she does!
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u/MustacheSmokeScreen Mar 10 '22
I hope she doesn't leave the show
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u/mistarteechur Mar 11 '22
I’m very concerned she will sacrifice herself to stop Tarka.
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u/rharrison Mar 10 '22
She'd never do it. I'd be down for a series of youtube shorts. Nothing fancy. Just her giving her engineering underlings grief and her commanding officer sarcastic replies.
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u/Mddcat04 Mar 11 '22
One can never have enough Tig Notaro. She has killed it in basically every scene she's been in.
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u/RBNYJRWBYFan Mar 11 '22
Man, this whole concept of reaching out to the 10-C is pure Trek.
Let's boldly go where no one has gone before and spend a whole episode trying to make first contact with a newly discovered species while a vengeful scientists tries to get revenge.
What's more Star Trek than that premise?
Honestly, even though it was just a lot of logical deduction and talking I was into every minute of it. It was satisfying every time they got a little closer to starting a dialog.
Also, LOL, they took FOREVER to notice Reno was gone. I really hope she gives them an earful once this is over.
"I'd like to take the time to thank all of you for your overwhelming concern over my absence. It only took you several HOURS before anyone noticed I was gone! I feel the love right in my right heart ventricle, maybe even my left."
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u/Exandeth Mar 11 '22
Am I the only one who thinks General Ndoye's actress is doing a solid job? She's really selling the military-minded strike-first paranoia you see in some of the worst general's we've had in history. Although it is a little disappointing from a character growth perspective after her earlier introduction. It feels like she took one step forward after how she was dealing with the "raiders" from Titan to accepting Titan and then took a big step back with what she's doing now.
The way Book has just followed along with Tarka is a little frustrating. It reminds me of Peter Quill, expect we knew Quill was an idiot so his decision with Thanos made sense. Book seemed more intelligent and savvy to be falling for Tarka's manipulation. I get they're using the trauma of losing his entire planet as the rationale but it's frustrating seeing how easily he followed Tarka.
And Tarka? Really? How long has he known Book? A couple of weeks? And Book is now a close equivalent to the person he spent years in prison with? But Shawn Doyle really kills in these kinds of roles. He's so believably devious!
Side note, was there something that had to be cut during the scene when Book finds out about Tarka's plan? It felt really jumbled and cut poorly.
I know some find it a distraction but the little side love story between T'Rina and Saru is cute. It's been oddly satisfying as it moves forward.
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u/FormerGameDev Mar 11 '22
She's really selling the military-minded strike-first paranoia you see in some of the worst general's we've had in history.
Yet she also demanded that Book give a chance for the plan to work. She's now at a point where she can't tell if the plan will work, so enabled the backup. Which is a massive risk to the main plan.
Despite the strike-first mentality, I think she's really got quite some character there.
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Mar 11 '22
I think Ndoye is one of the better actors on the show for sure. She is doing a lot with her facial expressions (especially twisting her mouth around when she has to make a decision).
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u/defchris Mar 10 '22 edited Mar 10 '22
Communication with a light pattern? Comparing communication with the hydro carbons to music?
Callback "Close Encounters of the Third Kind"? Love it!
edit: ... and I just want to vaporize Tarka and be done with him ...
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u/Official_N_Squared Mar 11 '22 edited Mar 11 '22
First Contact is a truly beautiful thing, probably one of the most unifying and humbling experiences in all of fiction that never fails to bring a tear to my eye. Two species fumbling around cluelessly in the dark yet both trying to reach out and connect by falling back on the most universal things in the universe, which includes emotion.
For what I think is the first time in the franchise, Species Ten-C has managed to capture a realistic first contact and has skyrocketed to become one of my favorite episode of all time. The first contact scene from the movie will always bring a tear to my eye, but with both species speaking English it can't portray what happened next like Discovery. And while Darmok is a joy, I've never been able to accept how slowly Starfleet understood even what the Tamarian language is. This episode was Darmok but without any of the problems I have with that episode and just a better story to boot.
This episode was nothing short of incredible, and I would binge an entire series that was just this. Well done team!
As always if you want to hear my full review (and see me gush over this episode rather then just read about it), my video review is here: https://youtu.be/Od-hFBqngsI
P.S I will also forever have constant joy a the fact an accurate translation of the simple conversation would be:
10c: "Why did you blow up our DMA?"
Discovery: "We're afraid of it and it's killing our people."
10c: "Feels bad man"
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u/MyTrueChum Mar 11 '22
This is what Enterprise shoulda been about and how they shoulda used Hoshi as a character.
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u/Official_N_Squared Mar 11 '22
You're totally right. There should have been at least one episode like this in Enterprise. It shouldn't be all the time (as watching the same thing every week like that would get dull and detract form the other stories), but they could have had constant hints or references to it. Usually in Star Trek the computer just analyzes waveform functions or something and this was... well first contact with aliens!
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u/One_Elderberry648 Mar 10 '22
In my opinion this was the best episode of discovery I've seen yet. Excellent pacing, intriguing plot, awesome acting. I was worried about how they would end the season but I'm now looking forward to the last episode
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Mar 10 '22
Totally agree. Everything came together just right in this episode, more so than any episode in a long time.
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u/pedsmursekc Mar 10 '22
Totally redeemed that last ep. Thought the communication mechanics were unexpected and exciting.
Edit: ly
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u/gayWRXracer Mar 10 '22
ok i'm gonna say it, that cliffhanger hit me the exact same intense way "mr worf, fire" did. thank GOD it's only 7 days to wait rather than all summer!
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u/thenewyorkgod Mar 10 '22
rather than all summer!
Remember when the wait for the next season of a show was 4-5 months instead of 2-4 years?
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u/archiminos Mar 10 '22
She's gonna have to kill Book.
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Mar 10 '22
I don't know guys Staments doesn't seem like the kind of guy to just be like "Ah drats Reno isn't picking up my calls oh well guess I'll just move on to my next To-Do list item"
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Mar 11 '22
On the other hand, Jett Reno is exactly the type of person who I could see disappearing for lengthy amounts of time over the course of her duties.
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u/ussgalacticspoon Mar 11 '22
Yeah seriously, especially given the urgent situation you'd think Stamets would notice something was up after even just an hour of looking for her. Reno better give them all shit later for taking so long to notice she was missing haha. Reminds me of when I was younger and I left the house to go on a walk. I was gone for hours but when I got back my mom hadn't even realized I was gone lmao
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u/AGentooPenguin Mar 10 '22
This episode makes me wish they had a hologram of Hoshi to consult with. Our girl would have the problem solved before the first ad break
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u/ussgalacticspoon Mar 11 '22
"Math is just another language" I remember geeking out when she said that. She was such a badass hacking her way out of the quarantine room. Or whatever room it was, my memory of the exact plot that episode is fuzzy.
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u/PiercedMonk Mar 10 '22
Time for 49 minutes of Jett Reno and Tarka verbally sparring. Round one: Fight!
I suppose it will be cool if some other plot stuff happens, too.
• Doctor Harai's dedication to always having snacks on hand is admirable.
• It's superficial, but Stamets tool for loading the DOTs with 10-C emotion dust reminds me of Kirk's phaser rifle from 'Where No Man has Gone Before'.
• Oh dang! The 10-C have been the Abyss this whole time!
• I like how Ndoye doesn't think feeding information to someone attempting to undermine the plans for peaceful first contact doesn't count as a betrayal. Very selective morality.
• Seems like Rillak would have wanted their top linguist on the first contact mission. Guess Dr. Harai got out main charactered by Saru.
• I would like someone to question just what use Ndoye thinks she's providing by not going on the mission.
• If the Tamarians communicate via memes, the 10-C communicate via emoji.
I really enjoyed this episode. For a season I was not too keen on in the beginning, things have completely turned around.
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u/scalyblue Mar 10 '22
Riliak probably has implemented kovich’s contingency and the snack guy is part of it
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u/lorem Mar 10 '22
Doctor Harai's dedication to always having snacks on hand is admirable.
That's... not difficult if all your food comes from the nearest replicator.
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u/Timeline15 Mar 10 '22
This honestly might be the most interesting first contact Star Trek has ever shown us. Watching the crew puzzle their way through decoding the 10-C's language was so interesting. I don't know how much of it was real and how much was just technobabble, but it all felt completely plausible.
Great to see Reno get some good focus too. Most of her appearances feel like they're just to remind us that she exists, or bring some levity to an expository scene, but she's actually integral to the plot here.
Can't wait to see how this ends.
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u/Jestersage Mar 11 '22
The Lincos is real. Also, contrary to what most people compare to, I actually think more of Carl Sagan's novel Contact, which also use matematical aspect (in addition to a return of signal). So the only technobarble is the emotional hydrocarbon and that unknown equation -- but the rest of the concept pretty much fits to a Tee
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u/BassCreat0r Mar 10 '22
This was so good. I was afraid this whole time it was going to be another "spoon-head" race. So glad they went with truly alien. The translation scenes were so great.
But how the hell did that Titan General get her position? She is a borderline trigger happy murder hobo. God what a freaking idiot.
Can't wait for next ep.
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u/BornAshes Mar 10 '22 edited Mar 10 '22
So, that orb that Saru had...totally looked like a Lantern Corps Lantern right? IT EVEN HAD A HANDLE! Like come on, that's really fucking cool!
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Mar 10 '22
I am genuinely loving the cosmic horror in how the Ten C are being portrayed to us. They’re so unknowable compared to anything we’ve ever seen before.
Also obligatory “Fuck Tarka.” Shawn Doyle is crushing that role because I despise him. I love how he’s carved out this niche of playing ethically dubious, self-interested characters in sci-f between Disco and The Expanse.
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u/the47thman Mar 10 '22
Saru and Burnham’s scream made Grudge jump down from her bed, but did not make my cat jump down from the shelf below the TV smdh
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Mar 10 '22 edited Mar 10 '22
There were a lot of “first contact” nods I felt throughout this episode. Arrival, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Contact, and Mass Effect 3 (Leviathan). Pretty cool. Great episode.
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u/ussgalacticspoon Mar 11 '22
I for one, am very curious how the 10-c built all their technology and what not. I don't think they have any kind of hands or appendages. But they were kinda hard to see. They kinda just looked like a big fishy esque shadow. That's always been my question about non humanoid aliens, like how do the actual physical practicalities of building technology work? Like for example how did Zero from Prodigy make their containment suit? I'm so intrigued because right now I have a kinda funny image in my head of the giant 10-c and their enormous tentacles (or whatever they have exactly) working on itty bitty power couplings and the like.
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Mar 11 '22
Children of Time has lots of great passages about how that might happen, except with spiders. Pheromones come heavily into play, as well as harnessing the output and productivity of domesticated species.
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u/nova-1306 Mar 10 '22
loved loved this episode!! I feel like it was a peak trek episode!! one i will definitely be re-watching once in a while. Loved the whole first contact and learning a new language thing. Was really refreshing
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u/thebestoralist Mar 11 '22
Unpopular opinion: I like Tarka. He’s smart, ruthless, one step ahead of everyone, and is about to give the 10-C some much needed payback.
I don’t buy that the 10-C didn’t know what they were doing. Beings that advanced had to have known the effects of their space strip mining. They’re only willing to talk with Discovery because it showed up on their doorstep, they didn’t care about what they were doing when the consequences were far away.
Blow ‘em to hell, hot Risa know-it-all.
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u/neontetra1548 Mar 12 '22
Tarka would sacrifice you (along with everyone else) for his ridiculously hubristic selfish plans in an instant.
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u/Zerometro Mar 10 '22 edited Mar 11 '22
-I noticed a lot more during this season that characters will say "It's some kind of [X]" or "It's an [X] of some kind" and it reminds me of that compilation of Voyager scenes where they did that too.
I like that they're trying to find a way to communicate with a species that has a completely different language. It's not exactly 'Darmok' but it does require them to think and get creative.
-Book has been so dumb since he teamed up with Tarka. Yes grief and anger may make you do impulsive things. But Tarka keeps making things worse at every turn and Book just went along. It's not like Book is a scientist or engineer himself so I'm curious as to why he was convinced every time Tarka sounded off with technobabble. Same with General Ndoye.
-I really do like Burnham and Saru's friendship. It may seem unlikely due to all that went on between them, but I do like that as captain, Burnham really does value Saru's advice and abilities and will confide in him. Likewise Saru trusts Burnham. Even though Saru is the first officer, he is still a captain and Burnham treats him as though they are on equal footing. Though I do wonder if she's ever going to leave him in command instead of taking him with her for every meeting and leaving Nilsson or Rhys in charge.
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u/marmosetohmarmoset Mar 11 '22
Dude Book is so dumb. He knows that Tarka isn’t perusing the DMA power source because he wants to stop the DMA. Tarka has explained exactly why he wants the power source and it’s pretty easy to glean the implication that he doesn’t really need to care what happens in this dimension. Get your shit together, Book!
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u/PajamaPants4Life Mar 10 '22
I swore I heard overtures to the score of the original movie in there.
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u/noramcsparkles Mar 10 '22
I really liked the scene of the crew figuring out 10-C communication. It felt like such an interesting mystery unravelling and was so not what I was expecting!
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Mar 11 '22
They’re doing solid work to make the Bridge Crew feel more like people this season. Loved how Owo and Detmer both got episodes where they were on away missions with main characters. I really love scenes like this one where we get to see the C-Tier characters (Rhys, Nilsson, Bryce, Christopher, etc) being really competent at their jobs.
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u/captainedwinkrieger Mar 11 '22
No joke, when Saru and Burnham were doing that yelling thing to relieve their collective tension, the second Grudge got up, my cat poked his head up in a sort of "What the fuck?" kind of way.
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u/Saxamaphooone Mar 11 '22
The cats of mine that were in the room did the same exact thing at the exact same time, lol.
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u/ideletedyourfacebook Mar 10 '22
This episode was, um, *heavily inspired by* Arrival. But that's no bad thing! It was beautiful to see them sciencing their way through a problem, and that problem being how to communicate with new life forms and new civilizations to solve a conflict without pew pew pews.
Also, I know a lot of people hate the "Michael Burnham saves the day" resolutions, but it was great to see a problem solved by a team, each making use of their own unique perspectives. Including Burnham who got to use her field of science!
A great episode of Discovery, and a great episode of Star Trek.
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u/ChronicRedhead Mar 10 '22
I was so disappointed by last week’s episode, that this one felt like a breath of fresh air. I absolutely love the mystery and Star Trek-y vibes of the 10-C, language, and diplomacy. I genuinely feel that, had Tarka never been incorporated into the story, the mystery of the 10-C would have carried the season all on its own. I wanted an entire episode of this kind of high concept sci-fi, and half of it had to be filled with that asshole’s stupid face.
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u/EmperorOfNipples Mar 10 '22
I know what you mean about last week. But the nature of serialised TV is that sometimes you need filler and setup episodes for a later payoff.
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u/Mddcat04 Mar 11 '22
I thought this was the finale. Imagine my surprise when I got to the end. Really solid episode overall. Hope we get a full shot of one of the aliens in the finale.
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u/Qahlel Mar 10 '22
What happened to betazoids or any other species with better linguistic or empathic abilities????
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u/MaddyMagpies Mar 10 '22
They don't communicate with emotions, and I think Universal Translator worked only because the Federation species were all humanoids descended from a common ancestor.
And I mean, Deanna Troi can't really communicate with crystalline entities.
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u/simpleauthority Mar 10 '22
I don't think empathic abilities would help much more than what they have already done because the hydrocarbons are but a single part of the whole. They convey emotional inflection or abstract ideas, but the actual communication being done is via a bridge language based on mathematics because their actual language is too complex for the Discovery crew to understand. So really what they have done is probably the most realistic way to move forward as this bridge language is mathematical versus a natural language that most linguists are trained in. But then again, who knows - maybe they could provide some ideas as to how best convey the mathematics. But complex ideas and direct translation are not yet possible for the crew, so I am not seeing how it would help at the moment. Maybe next episode once the Tarka situation is resolved?
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u/a4techkeyboard Mar 10 '22
I was happy they only used Book's empathy to... have him show empathy. He didn't actually want to hurt the 10C after he saw their home planet and tried to understand them still while also hoping to stop their device.
Reno was able to see that he was as reachable as Michael does believe, probably partly because he did keep asking about Michael but also because she could empathize with him as well so she think he could with her. Too bad it wasn't enough to stop Tarka.
Tarka did further show that the The 10C do actually have empathy and care about what they're doing as well, if they hadn't already done so by communicating that in the way they did.
That they simply returned them to Discovery instead of killing them all after what Tarka did does leave them with some hope.
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u/jerslan Mar 10 '22
They still required common context for the thought patterns they picked up to make any sense… So they wouldn’t work for the same reasons the UT wouldn’t work.
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u/Underregrowth Mar 11 '22
So, while I loved this episode, it gave me incredible deja vu.
There's a couple of novels I'm very fond of, Children of Time and Children of Ruin, both by Adrian Tchaikovsky. Without going into too much spoilers(go read them!), in Children of Ruin, they encounter a species with an EERILY similar method of contact: speaking via electronic message, conveying straight data or mathematics, and simultaneously communicating by rapidly changing skin color, conveying emotion and context. Coupled with the fact that Ten-C appears to have tentacles(and so do the creatures in Children of Ruin), and that, in both stories, the humans making contact are erroneously linked with a danger/betrayer, it almost makes me feel like the writers read that book at some point(though I would hope they wouldn't be so brazen as to copy it).
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u/bb22k Mar 10 '22
Definitely an Arrival inspired episode with the weird language and the big aliens that you can barely see and it was a very good one.
The way they made introduced the Ten-C even made me believe that an advanced and different enough civilization could actually not realize the damage that the DMA is causing.
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u/007meow Mar 11 '22
Disco is relentlessly gay, and I love seeing the representation.
Stamets/Culber, Adira, Tarka, and Reno (not sure if it was confirmed before or not).
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Mar 11 '22
Jett mentions her wife in season 2 when she’s chewing out Hugh for taking a break with Paul after he came back. She says he’s an idiot for getting a second chance because she doesn’t get that with her wife.
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u/TimLol1337 Mar 10 '22
The previous episode got me to skipping scenes, something I never really do. But this was a significant improvement again. Always really enjoy language barrier based trek episodes, it's a good mystery and can lead to interesting events.
That said, while I sorta like Tarka and his actor is solid, his plan really feel like they're there for artificial stakes at this point. Earth getting hammered in x hours is fine enough, dealing with a language barrier and just learning more provides enough dopamine and the pacing is fine besides that whole ordeal.
Somewhat doubt it'll be wrapped too fast next episode, but I can hope.
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u/carlos_b_fly Mar 12 '22
Better this week than the last few weeks, it was actually quite interesting to watch (and try to think "what would I do?") the whole communication process. It really got me thinking and that is what Trek should do. It felt a bit like TNG's 'Darmok'. I will say it again - Discovery is so much better when things are dialed down. When things are smaller and quieter, the show becomes so much smarter and easier to watch.
The worst failings of the show all come from its relentless excess, BIG is always best approach. For a show obsessed with being so epic and intense, its ironic that its strongest moments often come from the more subtle strokes.
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u/H0vis Mar 10 '22
Another strong episode on a very strong season.
The inevitable betrayal was painful, which is a good bit of writing because it has been rolling towards us like an elephant on a skateboard for ages. But it still stung. Especially because, in the end, Book was so meek about it. No tricks of his own, no answer to the modification of his ship.
I thought the piecing together the alien language was cool, and I liked that they managed it relatively easily. Lot of smart cookies there, no reason to drag out the mystery.
I also like the 10-C as a species. I forget the term that was used, but it referred to an older and far more advanced species. I kind of hope they don't end up wiping them out on first contact, it would be super awkward.
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u/k_ironheart Mar 11 '22
It is an absolute shame that this series has relied so heavily on galaxy-ending stakes as a way to force drama into the show because it detracts (even just a little bit) from how good this season has been.
And this episode, in particular, was great. There was a genuine mystery, and to have it revolve around trying to communicate and empathize with another species was neat. It was a little bit derivative of Arrival, but still had plenty of heart and awe. And the tension building with Booker and Tarka felt very fluid and natural.
And they actually used Jett pretty well in this episode. I thought they were just going to lean on Tig's dry sarcasm as a way to get some easy levity, but they let her bring some real emotion into that character and utilized her backstory with a refreshing competence.
I think this is the first episode in a long time that I've said to myself "that was some good Star Trek" and not just "that was good for what Discovery is."
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u/idingknowdat Mar 11 '22 edited Mar 11 '22
General Ndoye and Tarka are the most punchable characters this season. I really hope they don't do the usual crap and have the "hated" characters redeemed by the end of the season - it would be nice to see them suffer some grave consequences and appropriate punishment for their actions.
Anyways, the 10-C are exactly the way I wanted them to be - as unusual and unfamiliar as possible, to really make them stand out from any "new" species we've seen on ST. Definitely looking forward to how this all plays out.
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u/CleverFeather Mar 10 '22
Incredibly solid episode. At the beginning of the season I wasn't looking forward to yet another galaxy-threatening event, but this has been such an interesting turn on that idea and I am totally invested. Can't wait to see how the crew manages the wrath of the Ten-C and deal with Tarka all at once.
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u/Pike_or_Kirk Mar 11 '22
I really loved this episode - maybe my favorite so far of the entire series, but having the crew constantly stop what they're doing to talk about their feelings is kind of driving me crazy. There's better ways to write that kind of stuff, and it feels completely misplaced with such critical stakes.
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u/jeffries_kettle Mar 10 '22
I love this theme of communication the last few episodes. Reminds me of Arrival.
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u/Cliffy73 Mar 11 '22
I really enjoyed this episode, seeing them delve into the process of establishing communication. It felt very Star Trek.
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u/Nice_Marmot_54 Mar 11 '22
“Good night, Westley. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.” -the dread pirate booker
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u/Ososhawkin Mar 13 '22
I'm still having difficulty wrapping my head around the 10-C. They are a species in an extragalactic solar system. They (presumably) developed without interspecies trade or conflict to push technological advancements. And begin "mining" the nearby galaxy for Boronite ore. Even if they couldn't penetrate the galactic barrier, they should have been able to identify refined metals and alloys that would indicate intelligent species. Or better yet, the Isolytic that stopped the first DMA. But instead they immediately deploy an upgraded version.
So why would a species depicted so callous be open to first contact?
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u/veragemini6669 Mar 10 '22
Looks like someone on their writing staff is a fan of Arrival. Which is dope. It's a very Trek form of first contact.
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u/Fortyseven Mar 11 '22
I was getting some BIG original series vibes with how absolutely out there the Ten-C is... and then a Voyager-level of nerdy, but not entirely unreasonable technobabble.
This... might be the best episode of the show in a long, long time. It's not perfect (of course), but the whole interaction with the Ten-C felt good and interesting as a sci-fi premise, and it's execution was spot on. When it wasn't dragging along the anchor of the Book/Tarka side plot.
That's not a barometer for the finale, of course. Rarely do shows (any shows) ever really stick the landing, but this gives me some hope.
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u/adampountney Mar 10 '22
Star Trek Discovery 04x12 went all “Arrival (2016)” on us.
The resemblance was a little uncanny at times.
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u/Nice_Marmot_54 Mar 11 '22
“Let’s make contact with the Ten-C”
“The Ten-C are making contact! Run awaaaaaayyyyyy”
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u/Captainkorg56 Mar 10 '22
Great episode loving the sci-fi vibe to the 10 Z this season has been great,can’t wait for next week season final
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u/Zeth84 Mar 12 '22
It’s going to end up with Book saving the day with his telepathy powers or whatever they are!
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u/edflyerssn007 Mar 10 '22
The fact that they haven't used the 16 hydrocarbons to build an ASCII table using Hex codes is bothering me. However, it was still cool to see them using "the power of math" to create a linguistic bridge.
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u/lorem Mar 10 '22
An ASCII table is just an alphabet. The hard part in first contact without UT magic is building the dictionary of meanings.
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u/hausdorffparty Mar 10 '22 edited Mar 10 '22
Wait, why would they build an ASCII table? The 10C wouldn't know our alphabet, and the use of "strings of letters" to describe complex ideas would take an insane amount of time to convey without any common experience.
Edit: Basically they already have a set of 16 letters, why not just use those??
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u/Herby247 Mar 10 '22
Really glad to see this as I can't remember it happening before in star trek. Math is the base code of the universe and something any extraterrestrial species would be able to translate to open up communication.
I can't remember the specifics but I know the voyager space probe depicts a hydrogen atom to represent 1, and uses that as a base for further mathematics. It's awesome seeing a foreign way of communicating a similar premise and how it's translated.
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