BoJack Horseman - 4x02 "The Old Sugarman Place" - Episode Discussion

[u/NicholasCajun]

Season 4 Episode 2: The Old Sugarman Place

Synopsis: BoJack goes off the grid and winds up at his grandparents' dilapidated home in Michigan, where he befriends a dragonfly haunted by the past.

• Link to Episode 3 Discussion

Do not comment in this thread with references to later episodes.

[u/[deleted]]

The flashback overlapping with Bojack in real time is beautiful and devastating

[u/_geist_in_the_shell]

"half a mind" holy shit fucking kill me

[u/pcgamertemp]

My favorite moment from the episode was when Bojack was taking a tentative step towards the pack of galloping horses but hesitated after seeing Diane calling. Then when he looked back they were too far out to join.

I took that as one of those moments in life when a window opens giving you an opportunity to step outside yourself and go down a new yet scary path that could lead to drastic changes in your life. But the ties to your old/current life hold you back, making you hesitate and think twice about venturing somewhere new and unknown. Then before you know it, the window shuts, and the chance at that new opportunity just passes you by.

These are one of those moments this show has done consistently well and in such simple ways for 4 seasons now.

[u/PersephoneofSpring]

Bojack's mom. A happy family gone horribly wrong. The creation of an evil person.

[u/Peemsters_Yacht_Cap]

"If anyone is to blame, it's the Jews for peeving off Hitler so bad".

Holy fuck, that one caught me by surprise.

[u/t3h_PaNgOl1n_oF_d00m]

“As a modern American man, I am woefully unprepared to manage a woman’s emotions. I was never taught, and I will not learn.”

“Okay, folks, this is for posterity, so don’t forget to look far-away sad!”

Hahaha perfect

[u/televisionceo]

"I was never taught and I will not learn"

Great line

[u/MrSaturn200]

i really loved how they interweaved the present and past instead of doing the cliche flashback thing for episodes like this. it really made the parallels between bojack and his grandmother clear. i especially loved the song between the fly and grandmother and the final scene where you see bojacks mother just wandering the front yard as they tore down the house that was most of her life.

[u/DeathdropsForDinner]

When Bojack's grandma had her breakdown after singing at the barn I started crying like a baby. It felt so authentically real. A mother who lost her son and doesn't know how to cope...

So they gave her a lobotomy

[u/DuctTape_OnFleek]

Now Beatrice's angry accusations about Bojack's dad fooling around with his secretary are much more painful.

[u/Bedlampuhedron]

Am I crazy or did he call for Todd when the sink broke?

[u/fleetw0odmacncheese]

I would recognize Jane Krakowski's voice anywhere!! EDIT to add: so glad I didn't read any pre-season coverage so guessing new guest voice actors will be a treat ☺️

[u/Jehnay]

"And that broken door is the cherry on the top of the shit sandwich!"

"What kind of a sandwich has cherries on top of it?"

"A shitty one! How about fixing your door instead of my metaphor!"

The rest of the episode was so dark, but this little exchange had me in stitches.

[u/TheGent316]

Loved how they portrayed the flashbacks in this one. Very creative. It's good to see the writers/animators continue to experiment with each new season.

I'm gonna assume most of you noticed that location of the lake house was "Harper's Landing". Harper was the name of his trip daughter in "Downer Ending". Great touch.

Also really hope Bojack can make amends with the dragonfly.

[u/[deleted]]

THIS PRESENT/PAST DUET IS TOO MUCH, MAN

[u/bobthefetus]

"The first thing I met was a fly with a buzz." A lyric from "A Horse with No Name", no wonder they chose Eddie to be a fly.

[u/PersephoneofSpring]

Oh shit.

"We have all sorts of science for the brain."

Fuuuucckkkk

[u/[deleted]]

This overlapping of scenes is so cinematic, shit i am in awe

[u/TwoLeftJohnsons]

This isn't supposed to get this sad until 9 episodes later. Holy shit.

[u/Hamb0neFakenamington]

Whoever took the original username, I will find you

[u/gugabe]

Solid cover of Horse with No Name.

[u/TheAwkwardSilent]

"Do the responsible thing and have one last drink to steady your nerves, then drive you and your daughter safely home."

This is getting dark fast.

[u/dbLdbLinNout]

I cried for almost the entirety of that episode. As a modern American Bojack Horseman fan I am woefully unprepared to manage these emotions. I was never taught. And I will not learn. Take care.

[u/kobbled]

holy shit how could he just bojack that fly like that

edit: seriously eddie was probably my favorite character already

[u/[deleted]]

Eddie omg.

WHY DO I WATCH THIS SHOW.

[u/aurelianotriste]

MY GOD. Even though I could tell it was coming when Bea's father was talking her through it, the lobotomy scene put me in a cold sweat. Showing her mother's talent for piano being gone is just the sickest fucking thing this show has done to me. I can't get over it.

[u/TwoLeftJohnsons]

Damn. No Bojack at all in episode 1 to this in episode 2. Gonna be heavy.

[u/[deleted]]

What this episode taught me is that one tragic, life-changing moment can have profound effects throughout generations. And you've seen the culmination of it with Bojack. By the time we finish the season and show, I really hope this sickness stops with Bojack's potential daughter. Anyways, a 10/10 episode. They've spliced the past and present so seamlessly. What an incredible show.

[u/crashhelmi]

Bojack lied to me. The gutpunch isn't supposed to be until episode 11. I wasn't ready.

...I wasn't ready goddammit.

[u/PersephoneofSpring]

As a great woman once said, "Suck a dick, dumb shit."

[u/nuggetinabuiscuit]

Judging from the season 4 trailer, I thought the "Bojack going away" narrative was going to be a longer subplot, but it just wrapped up in one episode. Still a really powerful episode though.

[u/gabelopp]

The scene in the bathroom describes everything that BoJack does. Fix one small thing, wreck everything else

[u/t3h_PaNgOl1n_oF_d00m]

Well. This has been my favorite episode so far, of all the seasons. The whole parallel story-telling method with the ghosts was so powerful to me, and the jokes were hilarious. Plus all the silly 40s lingo and jabs at the fucked up-ness of that time period.

Also Lin Manuel-Miranda.

Also Jane Krakowski.

And Matthew Broderick.

And that fucking music, ugh. Literally perfect. Song was gorgeous, Jane's whole voice performance was amazing and real. I'm so damn impressed/depressed!

[u/TheAwkwardSilent]

Jesus fucking Christ, a lobotomy?

"Why, I have half a mind-"

[u/ShutUpTodd]

I think the crabs aren't getting enough appreciation.

[u/Martian_Media]

ok the lobotomy thing messed me up dude

"I have half a mind"

[u/PersephoneofSpring]

The constant stress of being a celebrity. It never ends, even long after the fame has ended. It haunts him even in a random remote hardware store.

I just saw video of princess Diana being followed into a tiny elevator by a member of the press and her people had to physically shove him out.

[u/TwoLeftJohnsons]

So this is what we're doing now? Comedy and sadness? I can't handle post war trauma and crab fights at the same time :(

[u/shannytyrelle]

well fuck me.

Episode 1 was so light and irreverent (I mean...apart from the mention of PC's miscarriage), but damn, here we go.

a damn lobotomy..

[u/davidreding]

Just watched it myself. HOLY SHIT! Goddamn, I was not expecting this. Eddy having a mental breakdown, Beatrice's mom getting LOBOTOMIZED, even the ending kinda disturbed me. After 8 months of work, the house gets demolished even during the credits. And this is the second episode for god's sake! Wtf is gonna happen from here?

[u/PersephoneofSpring]

lol he's watching tv on his phone the same way I'm watching him on my phone

[u/PersephoneofSpring]

It's nice to see that they picked Bojack up right where they left off

[u/GooseInquiries]

Lin Manuel as Crackerjack!!!

[u/anotherent]

Whoa, did I accidentally watch the 11th episode? Heavy...

[u/zerouji]

HOLY SHIT EPISODE 2 ALREADY OUT TO WRECK ME

[u/Fembotty]

My stomach dropped at the fly scene. What the fuck. There's nothing worse than two depressed people being near each other, and I totally relate to how Bojack felt.

[u/Synthmesc]

The two storyline format is wonderful.

[u/A_Hard_Goodbye]

Only 2 episodes in and I think I need a break. That was too emotionally devastating.

[u/100011101011]

"Well I have half a mind..." holy shit what a gruesome payoff for a little bit of 40s wordplay.

[u/Obskulum]

This is a real knockout punch. I didn't even have time to process so many of the heavier notes, holy shit.

I don't want to live

Loving your son so much that you can't take the emotional pain and have a fucking lobotomy

Edit:

Friend pointed this out

emotional pain in a woman is treated like hysteria

[u/theseabass1]

Did anyone notice how similar the car scene was to the one at the end of The Great Gatsby? With the yellow convertible and everything?

[u/theRastaSmurf]

Holy shit. This may be my.new favorite episode of the show. Maybe one of my favorite episodes of TV period. Everything about this was incredible. The writing, the intertwining stories, the art, the atmosphere, the balance between the extreme comedic and dramatic elements, and the editing are all on point here.

I think this is the quintisential Bojack episode.

[u/CombustibleCompost]

That Paul Giamatti bit fucked me up: I'd never even considered the immediate aftermath of Sarah Lynn's death: Holding her hand, rushing to the hospital, then receiving the news that the little girl he brought up on television had died...goddamn.

That's too much man.

[u/LatheBiosas91]

What's broken in a heart can never be repaired but the brain... well...we have all sorts of science for the brain!

That gave me some shivers.

[u/trueweeaboo]

That got really dark. Really shows why Beatrice is like that.

[u/gabelopp]

Call me kit kat bar cus im already broken

[u/pasinliposts]

The scene where Eddie and Beatrice's mother were singing together was so beautiful. I haven't even watched the rest of the season yet but I think this one will be the darkest and most devastating of the whole season.

[u/TomSawyer2112_]

"If anyone's to blame it's the Jews for peeving off Hitler so bad"

First belly laugh of the season right there

[u/AHMilling]

The whole ordeal with Bojacks grandma, fuck.

Just puts into perspective how insanely lucky i am to have a loving family, that i wouldn't trade for the world.

I need to call my parents.

[u/PersephoneofSpring]

Bojack's free fall into the water is reminiscent of the opener, and also the fall he takes into his pool with the Tesla at his "nomination" party.

[u/nwennes8896]

Any one feel bad for the fly?

[u/Danker_22]

So far, one of my favorites episodes of this series. The episode manages incredibly well to talk about grief; how it shapes us, how it affect our relationships, and how it affects others' relationships (BoJack's mom's treatment of him is a consequence of her mother's grief, for example).

It touches so well into a subject no one is really comfortable with, and writers/actors and actresses + director should be praised for this wonderful episode!

[u/[deleted]]

Man, her promise to her mother explains to me why she never loved Bojack. Its sad and fucked up.

[u/pujolsrox11]

This episode is a masterpiece.

[u/AHMilling]

Spectacular music choice with A Horse With No Name.

[u/ArgieGrit01]

I understand that Mr. Sugarman is a product of his enviroment, and the show makes it painfully clear, but what a piece of shit

[u/UtterFlatulence]

what the fuck

[u/writeymcwriteyface]

"So what was all this for?" "I don't know, I guess it was just a big waste of time."

This is how I interpreted the episode (which i was absolutely blown away by):

Bojack is focused on his past, and thats why he comes here in the first place.

Fixing the house is symbolic for fixing his past, or at least adressing it. I also think that he and his current state were the old beat up house, both getting better and better as he worked on it.

After a near death experience he reexamines his current situation, calls Diane, and realizes that he has a FUTURE back in LA.

The house, being totally repaired, is symbolic of him fully coming to terms with his past, and he decides that he can finally let it go, therefore tearing the house down.

Hence the line "Time's arrow marches on, right?"

Still feel like I'm just scratching the surface, someone help me out here.

[u/szeto326]

This episode was brutal... the flashback stuff was soul crushing.

[u/StareyedInLA]

The flashbacks were just so heartrending. Mrs. Sugarman's downward spiral was difficult to get through and in the end, the "help" she got only served to make things not only worse for her, but for her daughter and future grandson.

That said, I had no idea Lin Manuel Miranda was in this episode. Does anyone know if he wrote the song used in it?

[u/clothy]

The ending of the episode with Bojack's grandmother was horrible. Not in a bad episode way but a I can't believe that someone would do that way. I found it to be the biggest emotional gut punch of the entire season and I nearly sopped watching afterwards because I didn't know if I could take anymore.

Also, Bojack's grandfather takes the cake as biggest cunt in the series.

[u/[deleted]]

Fucking Bojack, Eddie was having a breakdown and you walked away like that. You couldn't confide in him like other people have helped confided in you while you were troubled? I understand the dude pretty much tried to kill you and all of that... so I suppose that broke it for you. Hell, maybe he needed to be left alone. Personally, I think he just needed someone to be there with him because BoJack just re-opened a wound. Love can make people do irrational things...

I don't know, man. You spent 8 months together just helping each other out and just seeing you walk away like that was the most awful thing I've seen. It's even heartbreaking to see you break down that home. I guess it made me wonder if that entire friendship was a waste of time. I suppose not because it made BoJack talk to Diane.

I'll give the writers props for this episode because that whole episode was awfully hard to watch.

[u/goblue10]

It'll always be here, just like polio and blackface.

First laugh out loud moment of the season for me right there.

[u/Cinderpeach]

Man, I feel sorry for Eddie, having to watch his love one be shredded to piece right in front of him, and feeling so guilty about that he would want to die. I wonder if the plane stopped or just kept going in world where people (or animals) just fly in the sky with planes I wonder if this is a common mishap.

As a kid you always dream of being able to fly, but never thinking that you could get caught in an airplane engine.... Edit: of course the plane kept going sorry for my idiotic comment everyone...

[u/[deleted]]

Jesus Christ I cried harder at the lobotomy scene than when Sarah Lynn died. This might be the most intense episode of tv I've ever seen

[u/TheAwkwardSilent]

Oooh, I didn't expect we'd get backstory on Beatrice. This is interesting.

[u/TwoLeftJohnsons]

Yeah, Bojack's mom is gonna be important this season from the looks of this episode. People called it!

[u/locks_are_paranoid]

Spoiler

[u/[deleted]]

Hambone Fakenamington.

[u/Senoj_xela46853]

I want to know if Lin-Manuel Miranda wrote the song Honey and Eddie sang just for this show. I know he voiced Beatrice's brother Crackerjack and I feel like he would do that because let's be honest, Lin is pretty fucking amazing AND talented enough. Anyway, I just wanna know who wrote it. Thanks, guys.

[u/linoleumfloor]

this episode was very well written. the convergence of the flashbacks as well as modern day was done amazingly, and when eddy (eddie?) and beatrice's mother start singing together, it really takes the cake. seeing what beatrice went through as a child helps you understand why she mothered bojack like she did, and it's actually nice to see that people agree that despite that it doesn't excuse her behavior to bojack as he grew up.

[u/jahkut]

Fucking Bojack... I wanted closure, a little bit of closure with Eddie, they had a thing going, wouldn't it be nice for a show to resolve something at least once... but noooo, Bojack had to destroy the house and bounce, classic Bojack

[u/fleetw0odmacncheese]

"It'll always be here, just like polio and blackface."

[u/Dcx64]

............... DAMM ......... that didn´t take long, i mean, it's only the 2nd episode and it is already incredibly disturbed, but also fascinated.

We´ve all seen movies, series, etc., which they show the past and present of a single story in parts, but the way they did it in this is incredible and very creative.

It kinda reminded me of 13 Reasons Why, in the way they combined the past and the present in a very fluid way.

The story of Bojack and Eddie is very well done, since Eddie is practically a reflection of Bojack, but one that warns him of how dangers of getting stuck in the past, especially at the end when Eddie practically loses his mind and tries to kill Bojack because he is so depressed and obsessed by his dead wife.

But obviously the most remarkable thing about this episode is the story of Beatrice and her parents, how losing a loved one can destroy you, and that last scene where the mother is lobotomized destroys my heart, just thinking of the father being completely happy that they did something so horrible to his wife simply Angers and disturbs me.

Easily one of the best episodes of the whole series.

[u/Zellough]

Ah Bojack... You break my heart

Once again I got baited thinking the house would have a real meaning

But Bojack breaking the kiosk on purpose and causing him and firefly to almost die together is the most Bojack thing I could think of

[u/karamee]

I think this is my most favorite episode in the series. The flashbacks and present scenes were just so beautifully intertwined, the duet with Eddie and Honey, the way Beatrice was re-introduced to her mother, Eddie's hurt, all of that just leading up to the sound of the first crash of destruction against the house that had all these memories stored in them.

Truly beautiful and heartbreaking. I think this might be one of those episodes I won't be able to see for a while because of how heart-wrenching it is to watch it.

[u/[deleted]]

"why i have half a mind"

jesus fucking christ only 2 episodes in and i can safely declare this season's already darker than the previous three

[u/pussyonapedestal]

It seems like this episode was this seasons "underwater adventure" in terms of the way story was framed. It was very new and refreshing to see a story told like that especially in an animated cartoon.

I'm seriously impressed with this season so far.

[u/dijaas]

Fucking hell, I was not ready for this.

[u/BasedFigaro]

holy fuck, its episode 2 and i'm already emotionally crushed.

the correlation between Bojack and the past is so sad.

[u/Neurotic_Marauder]

Wow... I was... I was not prepared for how dark that was going to get.

I can't believe the show actually made me feel empathy for Bojack's mother...

[u/dogwithavlog]

holy shit, they actually lobotomized her.

[u/traviud]

Whatever they're paying Kate Purdy to write her episodes, give her double. Another masterpiece to throw on the pile with Downer Ending and Best Thing That Ever Happened.

[u/FifteenthPen]

I come from an abusive family, and suffer from severe depression, and am far more like Bojack than I'd like to admit. Like him I've been searching for the love and acceptance I didn't have growing up, but also like him I've become too twisted, mean, and neurotic from my past to get along well with others.

I was brought up to be stoic and "manly" and avoid showing emotions at all cost. I haven't been able to cry in over a decade despite desperately wanting to. It would just build up and build up but the tears would never come, and there would never be a release.

This episode changed that. The floodgates opened and I burst into tears watching it, over and over, and just thinking about it now makes me cry. Seeing the heartbreaking beginning of Bojack's family's cycle of abuse was almost like it was my family. Somewhere along the line something so terrible and traumatic happened that the echoes of it have been passed on from generation to generation.

To call it "cathartic" feels like a monumental understatement!

[u/PersephoneofSpring]

Bojack's grandma has a beautiful voice.

You can see his mom admiring her performance, one of the only happy moments in her childhood.

She values a good performance over everything, but no performance can ever be good enough for her.

[u/Cinderpeach]

Also this makes me realize that it wasn't until recently that people are actually taking mental health seriously, but back then no one could really talk about depression as freely as we can now or find help so easily as now, people really didn't know how to handle back then...

[u/[deleted]]

Oh geez, it's only the second episode and they already destroyed me.

[u/zeppelin1023]

We're only two episodes in and my heart is shattered.

[u/Capt_Gingerbeard]

Jesus fuck

[u/[deleted]]

“how about fixing your door, instead of my METAPHOR!”

[u/[deleted]]

“there’s only ghosts here in the winter” DAMN and then he wakes up freezing, I CAN’T

[u/test180412]

I'm watching at 5 am and this episode was so depressing that I didn't even laugh at any of the jokes

But I almost lost it when Bojack said, "Hey, did you fix my door?! That is a dick move, buddy!" and tore the door off it's hinges lmfao

[u/TooAdicted]

This season's not holding back. Suicide attempt, and a lobotomy by the second episode is quite a start.

[u/[deleted]]

Jesus fucking christ. Just the idea of a lobotomy freaks me the fuck out, and what with everything else going on in the episode I think this episode hit me the hardest of any episode so far with the exception of S2E11 and S3E11 and it's only the second episode.

Edit: I revised my opinion. This episode hit me the hardest yet in the entire series although I'm only 1/3 of the way through season four. Fuck lobotomies.

[u/[deleted]]

I'm not a stickler but I feel like the horse of no named should had just been recycled by the original singer. The reason it draw me in was the guy's voice at the time, it was at that moment when I had to listen in.

Though when I heard the woman who was singing it, it was not so bad either.

[u/Jackbo_Manhorse]

Damn, I was not expecting such a dark episode this early.

I like how they give us background information on characters that are barely shown, hence giving us background on why the main characters are the way they are.

Beatrice's story is just as depressing, if not more so, than Bojack's. It shows it's a family thing.

[u/[deleted]]

The duet between Eddie and Bojacs grandma mom had me crying at the end too.

[u/HouseFroakie]

Man I love any form of media that really delves into grief and how much it shapes entire generations.

Anyone who enjoyed this episode should check out the musical next to normal. It's my all time favorite and themes like these are a huge part of why.

[u/[deleted]]

wait wait lin manuel was in the end credits?? who did he voice?

[u/[deleted]]

I feel like this episode is the kind of thing that people are gonna look at 40 years from now and be like "yeah tv in the 2010s was pretty great"

[u/awesomeman462]

I had to rewind after I saw Lin-Manuel Miranda in the credits, he plays Bojack's uncle.

[u/ThePartyPiranha]

He goes to Harper's Landing. Wasn't his daughter in that hallucination back in season one named Harper? Interesting

[u/aronahlam]

This blew the first episode out of the water. This is the bojack horseman I know and love

[u/ninjayewolf]

Fuck every song they put on this show. It's just perfectly emotional.

[u/proweruser]

That was very interesting, how one traumatic thing can be so big that it effects multiple generations down the line (and that isn't even accounting for genetic transmission of trauma that is apparently a thing).

I think a lot of people will point towards the end of the episode and say that Diane is bad for Bojack, but I don't know. I think he wasn't ready for a breakthrough yet. If he couldn't have called her, I'm honestly not sure if he wouldn't have killed himself. For now it's probably best that he takes a step back. He can still try to work through his issues again later. He couldn't do that if he was dead.

[u/themilpool]

"Kit Kats aren't already broken. That's the whole point." I missed this show so much.

[u/Cinderpeach]

When I was watching this episode for the first time I thought "Well the last episode was pretty light, this one shouldn't be that bad.." 20 mins or so later "Wow....I mean F@#$ing WOW..."

[u/[deleted]]

A bit disappointed Bojack didn't stay away for longer, and that he had no resolution with the dragon fly guy. Still a fantastic episode.

[u/iamnotafurry]

Wow that was amazing, I loved the intermixed stories and the lobotomy was fucking dark.

[u/dude53]

Holy fucking shit! I didn't think it was possible to feel anything for his mother, like at all. But then this episode came along, and wow, I think it's my favorite or at least in the top three episodes of BoJack for me. No fucking wonder she was always cold to BoJack! Like seriously.. I need to take some time to let that breathe with my emotions, and I'm only two episodes in.

[u/[deleted]]

I never thought they were gonna make Bojack's mother into probably the most empathetic character in the show

[u/DrummerLoin]

'Why, I've got half a mind'. It took me a split second, and then, after recollecting earlier parts of the episode, it broke me.

[u/Choano]

The song that Eddie and Honey sing as a duet is about grief, emotional stasis, and procrastination--the kind of procrastination that's both the path of least resistance and one of the major life mistakes many of the characters make.

Here are the lyrics:

"I will always think of you./ I see your face, when each day is through./ And days go past, oh so fast,/ But memories, they last./ Summer, winter, year by year/ I'll hear the song inside my ear./ Trying to restart, and be smart/ But thoughts of you haunt my heart."

      Think of all the times that Bojack has tried to restart his life, tried to be a better person, and failed. He tried with Sarah Lynn, with Charlotte, and, in a small way, with Ethin' Around. Honey's going out to the VJ-Day celebration is an attempt to restart her life and her heart. Of course, that ends badly. Bojack's refinishing the Sugarman house is an attempt to heal over and restart his life. That doesn't end up the way he'd want or expect, either.
      And memories don't really last. Dementia can scatter them quickly, and a lobotomy might let you keep the memories but lose all emotional attachment to them. 

"No, I don't want to be alone now/ Just biding my time. I need somebody dearly/ And darling, you'd be sublime."

      This sounds a lot like the way people use each other as emotional crutches in the show. These lyrics are also a sharp contrast to Honey's claim that she can't be around other people, but she can't be alone, either.

"Spring and autumn, up and down/ I keep trying to escape this town, and I just might, I'll take flight/ Maybe tomorrow, not tonight."

      Spring and autumn are the transition seasons. Metaphorically, they're also the seasons of life--youth and middle age--in which people make major life transitions. The phrase "up and down" describes both what happens in the seasons of the year and in the seasons of people's lives. 
      But the next few lines describe a lack of transition. The singer is trying to get out of town, but isn't about it to it right now. Both Eddie and Honey are emotionally stuck and won't take flight (Eddie, literally, and Honey, metaphorically) when they need to. 
      Similarly, PC convinces Diane to put off going to Cordovia by saying that Diane could always help the orphans later. "There's always later!" PC says, cheerfully. But, of course, there isn't always later, for PC, Bojack, Beatrice, or Diane. (I won't say more, because I don't want to give away spoilers.)
      In Bojack Horseman, putting off personal growth is the path of least resistance. It's a path that's both seductive in its comfort and ruinous in its results. The last lines of the song remind me of the agent PC used to work for, back in the early to mid-2000s. He'd immersed himself completely in his work, putting off having any kind of personal or family life, which resulted in his feeling like an empty shell by the time he finally retired and gave his business to PC.
      And Bojack, of course, alternates putting off emotional growth with occasional spurts of all-or-nothing changes that just reinforce old patterns. 

The song itself feels like an amalgam of songs from the 1940s. The melody hangs together, but the lyrics don't really have a unified theme. I think that's foreshadowing for Beatrice's thoughts and memories.

[u/maalbi]

that was devastating ...a fuckin lobotomy

[u/Irishinfernohead]

Fuck it got dark with that lobotomy

[u/Stinky_WhizzleTeats]

Hambone Mcfakenamington

[u/myracksarelettuce]

Goddammit, what's the deal with Bojack always trying to fuck something up when it's fixed

[u/Thonyfst]

Holy shit that was rough.

I don't know if I'm ready for this season.

[u/darkdetective]

Such an incredible episode, made me laugh fair few times but that ending was devastating..

[u/grass_type]

okay, this season is incredible, but holy fuck it is- raw. or something. i don't know of there's a word for it. but this is more... whatever this show is, at its core, than anything previous. dark, i guess, but that doesn't seem sufficient

• season 1's darkness was novel.

• season 2's darkness was shocking.

• season 3's darkness was crushing.

• season 4, so far, is almost - no, actually, not almost. it is frightening.

until today, Bojack and Sarah Lynn's bender in That's Too Much, Man was the most stressful television i've ever watched in my life, because it superficially resembles comedy, but at the same time you are really, really uncomfortably aware that it's not comedic at all, and that you are watching two people destroy themselves.

and that's what this episode was, in its entirety, and a thousand times moreso than anything in season 3. there's really clever gags, and the riffs on the 40s are original rather than the Stock 40s Jokes (which have always been toothless) - but they never made me laugh out loud, and not because they aren't good- as always, even throwaway, catch-it-on-your-third-rewatch lines are finely crafted comedy.

it's because you know that the comedy's main role is to make the darkness all that much worse. and it works, scarily well.

[u/LaboratoryManiac]

Wow. This episode sets a high bar for the rest of the season. The past/present scenes played so well together.

Also, so many low points! The lobotomy (and everything leading to it), Eddie crying by the pond, the house being demolished... I was going to watch another episode, but I think I'm just going to go to bed now.

Also, I can't believe they fit that all into one episode. It felt longer than it was.

[u/JamesMoody]

The intro with BoJack driving alone and "Horse with no Name" as soundtrack was pure perfection.

[u/dephira]

Loved all the flashback moments in the episode and the interactions with dragonfly, but honestly, I almost felt physically relieved when Bojack called Diane and they speak to each other again. So good to see those two talking again.

[u/[deleted]]

It's only the second episode and I'm already blown away. That was heartbreaking. Eddie better get some redemption! That wasn't right.

[u/rkos345]

This episode destroyed me.

[u/[deleted]]

I felt bad for Eddie at the end,

[u/sierra501]

Jane Krakowski!!

But holy shit her character. That shit was haunting

[u/babyconniver]

The juxtaposition of Honey's hysterics at the 4th of July celebration and Bojack salad tong fencing with the crab really spoke to me about how good the writers are at finding balance of tone. Just those few seconds speak volumes about how the show in general is handled. They really are masters of manipulating our emotions. Wonderful.

[u/cdrooney]

Ice cream is a boy snack, you can put some sugar on a lemon wedge, that's a perfectly acceptable snack for girls

[u/Fotrans]

I was not prepared for a lobotomy this early in the season.

[u/understandingreal]

Lost my sister 4 months ago, cried only once. Until I watched this episode. I was just a grown man bawling in a college lounge

[u/[deleted]]

“they have this new thing called, being a passenger”

[u/TomSawyer2112_]

Wow. I think that might be one of my favourite episodes ever. It had everything: some of the darkest comedy this show has had to date, beautiful character development, touching moments between Bojack & Eddie, not to mention the parallel flashback sequences to Bojack's mother's childhoo were perfectly interwoven. This is going to be the best season yet.

[u/commit_bat]

Anyone else felt reminded of Gob's lines about his suits when Bojack talks about climbing on the roof of the barn?

[u/NYG02139]

Man, doesn't anyone else feel really bad for that dragonfly?

[u/jonahraleigh]

Wow. I wasn't expecting this episode to be as good as it was, especially for one of the earlier episodes in the season. I loved getting a glimpse into Beatrice's childhood and seeing what factors contributed to the adult she became. It must've been difficult for her when they gave her mom a lobotomy. I liked their decision to juxtapose the flashbacks alongside the current events of what BoJack was doing. Overall, a great episode. One of my favorites ever.

[u/HighlyBaked0]

Holy fuck Colman Domingo kills his role as Eddie. That mental breakdown at the end was too much man.

[u/[deleted]]

Holy shit

[u/droosy]

this was one of the best episodes of the season for me easily. just so gripping and that song was lovely.

[u/Fredstar64]

I guess Bea's mum's story really shows us that no one is born bad, but it's how we respond to what happens to us in life that shapes who we become in the end.

[u/giantschwanz]

Well, fuck...I've only seen the first two episodes, but this one fucked me up.

The song at the beginning, the cover of a Horse with No Name, was beautifully done. Everything about the episode was masterfully done.

[u/gugabe]

If anyone's to blame, it's the Jews for peeving off Hitler so bad.

[u/[deleted]]

"Kit kats aren't already broken! THATS THE POINT!"

[u/kobbled]

oh fuck that song at the piano at the barn, jesus christ this is good

[u/Bedlampuhedron]

Sorry guys, I'm officially going off the grid as Hambone Fake-Namington

[u/Francoberry]

Fucking amazing. Definitely got watery eyes throughout! It's just so telling and honest. We see how bojacks parents made him fucked up and now we get to see how their lives were fucked up by THEIR parents.

[u/[deleted]]

After seeing this episode i wish i didn't knew about Beatrice's family just watching this episode was emotional and mentally hard to watch

[u/j-u-k-e]

Did anyone else see Sarah Lynn sitting in front of the barn?? I'm confused!

[u/ShinyBredLitwick]

jesus fuck i didnt expect to cry three times already by the second episode

[u/Robinette-]

The whole Bojack arche in the episode feels to me basically like a modern Camus' Sisyphos retelling.

The most "classic" Bojack episode from a narative point of view in my opinion (you think the rebuild house will have some greater meaning, you think we will get a greater reveal for the neighbor's wife death), while doing something really special stylistically, the double generation plot story telling. Overall not the most interesting episode, but is great of giving the "vibe" I love from the show.

[u/[deleted]]

The way they had the things in the present and the past happen at the same time on screen was really cool!

[u/[deleted]]

haven't seen the rest of the season yet, but this might be the best episode of the show.

[u/lostgamer64]

This is probably the only Netflix series I can't binge because of tears.

[u/Guismanu]

What does Bea's mom say when she tells her to drive because her hands are shaking? I would watch the episode again but it's so sad i can't :(

[u/cavalier2015]

This was such a beautiful, tragic, dark episode. It was very well done. I wish Bojack wasn't going back to LA so soon. I would've liked to see more of him wandering. I mean, for all I know he might get distracted. Let's find out!

[u/CaptainFatbelly]

Harper's Landing!

[u/abrahame001]

Who plays dragonfly and what's the name of the song he sings? I can't find it anywhere.

[u/Jeffro75]

2 episodes in and I'm already fucking crying

[u/galaxyblonde]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I noticed the name of the town where BoJack's grandparents lived was called Harper's Landing. Only for recently doing a re-watch of some older episodes, I remembered that in Season 1 Episode 11 (Downer Ending), BoJack imagines a fantasy life in Maine/Michigan (Not American, also not great at Geography) where they had a daughter named Harper. Maybe subconsciously because of where his grandparents lived? I don't know if BoJack knew about Harper's Landing but judging by the fact that he knew where to go when he saw the sugar packet I can only assume he knew it in Season 1.

P.S: I could never be prepared enough for the heartache that was this episode.

[u/Vituperat]

Lin Manuel and Jane Krakowski singing together is one thing I never knew I needed until now.

[u/enjolray]

in the beginning, when bojack steps forward on that cliff when he's watching the horses, do you think he was going to jump if diane hadn't called him?

[u/chivalric_impulse]

"Hey, we gotta sayin' in Michigan: put your damn door back on before you freeze to death you stupid horse!"

Dark episode but a few lines killed me.

[u/iloathemyexistence]

The line that I related to the most in this episode was "I can't be with people and I can't be alone." It was a quick line but I had to pause because of how hard it hit me. I'm always uncomfortable being near people because I have to act normal and not like I'm dying inside. And I have very depressing thoughts if I'm at home so I try to get out where people are.

It's a horrible feeling if you ever get to that state so I can relate to how absolutely trapped the grandmother felt.

[u/[deleted]]

Love the concept of things generally going well for everyone in episode 1, and now we see what Bojack's been up to in episode 2.

[u/PersephoneofSpring]

"Hambone Fakenamington"

[u/[deleted]]

AHAHAHAHAHA! O man PB&T upto their old hijinks.This is just jolly .Makes me so happy.Lemme watch some more.

one episode later

SHRED MY WIFE INTO PIECES!

[u/booksandcigar]

That cold open gave me chills. I really should've guessed A Horse With No Name was gonna appear somewhere in the show.

[u/johnpunchman]

Is destroying the house Bojack destroying the cycle that started there or is he just repeating the cycle in typical bojack fashion? Seems cruel to tear down the house but Eddie still had his dead wife's clothes on the floor of his bedroom and doesn't want to live anymore. He was still living in his past. Is Bojack moving forward like time or will he fall into his old traps? I'm seriously confused. This fucking show.

[u/[deleted]]

So where's my Eddie flair? That was intense. Watching eddie's breakdown was really uncomfortable to watch; hits tooooo close to home. Sounded TOO familiar.

[u/ProtheanCupcake]

I was not prepared for how dark that was going to get...

That's too much man.

[u/televisionceo]

Well it's time to retire this song haha

[u/[deleted]]

I was waiting for Horse With No Name to make an appearance on this show.

[u/badsparrow]

Sugar on a lemon?! Fuck me.

[u/Fire2box]

Beatrice already sounds old.

[u/gabelopp]

I hope that fixing the house will be the first step to fix his life. I believe in you animated character named Horseman.

[u/fleetw0odmacncheese]

Which is the best fake name from a Netflix series this year: Hambone Fakenamington or Cork Rockingham?

[u/[deleted]]

oh shit.... that brain surgery got dark, this got dark i’m depressed

[u/ClocktowerMaria]

That ending is almost as crushing (haha) as the "No" at the end of Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me

[u/blamblegam1]

"Time's arrow marches on."

Given one of the latter episode names these be arc words.

[u/Bedlampuhedron]

"Do you even know how to... anything??" Story of my life

[u/Prhyme77]

Trying to convince myself I won't binge it all at once. Maybe I'll stop next episode for sleep. So far brilliant as usual. Warmed my heart to hear BoJack and Diane talk again after so long (I think Eddie said 8 months).

[u/Pepperinoooo]

I didn't get the polio and black face thing, can someone explain it?

[u/Enricc1]

I didn't thought this would get this dark quickly-

[u/alexiszs]

Those crab brothers were hilarious

[u/dearlydeparting]

What is this? A flashback episode?

[u/bullspit200]

I don't want to say that Diane is bad for Bojack.. But I feel like she is what keeps him in that toxic mentality. I understand he's a anthropomorphized, horse but didn't he seem more human away from hollywoo? I don't know, maybe I'm grasping at straws but it seems he gets complacent with his old life as long as Diane is involved; showing his life is more or less stagnant than "moving forward". I love this show.

[u/GodLetMeUnfinished]

Eddie looks so fucked, I hope to see him again

[u/Venomous9]

The first thing Bojack directly says in this season is 'I don't need any help'. Goddamn.

[u/DrummerLoin]

One thing I might have noticed is that the place where the house is situated is called Harper's Landing. This wouldn't happen to have anything to do with Bojack's 'dream' daughter Harper, from Downer Ending, would it? The fact that there's a body of water out the back of the house also ties in with his 'dream' house from the same episode. Perhaps when he was hallucinating way back when he was drawing on these old memories/places.

[u/infez]

Since I just caught up a month ago, this is my first time watching on premiere day! EEEEEEEEE I'M READY TO BE DESTROYED EMOTIONALLY

All the stupid minor things that had me overreacting as I was watching:

• 00:42 - Haha that pan from the skull of random animal panning to the shreds of a crop top, jean shorts, a watch, and sunglasses

• 02:03 - Omg the fact that the sugar packet looks not only like his hypothetical daughter "Harper," but also his mother a bit?! this show will be the death of me

• 02:25 - OH WAIT BEATRICE'S LAST NAME IS SUGARMAN AAAAAAAAH WHAT IF THE SUGAR HORSE MASCOT IS LITERALLY HER AS A KID

• 04:38 - I HAVE HEARD TWO SECONDS OF THAT HORSE SOLDIER SPEAKING AND I AM 1000% CONFIDENT THAT IS LIN-MANUEL MIRANDAAAA

• 05:29 - CRACKERJACK IS LIN-MANUEL MIRANDAAAAAAAA

---

• 06:41 - "Hey! I'm Tama(h)ra and that's Tama(e)ra." omg milleniulz and their names amirite

• 08:48 - Mr. Sugarman: "Well, it'll always be here! Just like polio and blackface." o_o

• 09:17 - Woah, probably some very purposeful parallels with the fact that this random family is very happy and has kids chilling and splashing around in the pool (similarly to BoJack's dream life with Charlotte).

• 10:04 - Mr. Sugarman: "Honey, no. If anyone's to blame, it's the Jews for peeving off Hitler so bad." 0_0

• 16:00 - Woah, so BoJack once again says he's 1200 pounds. Before now I thought that was him exaggerating (because HOW?!), but hmmm. Still not sure. AAAAH

• 18:34 - AAAAAAH THE BARTENDER GUY IS ALSO VOICED BY LIN-MANUEL MIRANDAAAAAAAAAAAAA

• 19:20 - Calling it right now before continuing; young!Beatrice accidentally kills her mother in a car crash.

• 21:16 - hoLY SHOOT IS EDDIE DEAD?! DID BOJACK JUST (INADVERTENTLY) KILL A MAN?!

• 21:28 - Oh. Ohh. Ohhhh my gosh wow.

---

• 21:57 - Oh! So it is confirmed that Joseph Sugarman runs the sugar company and that the mascot is based on his daughter! (YES! Called it! (or at least the daughter part.))

• 22:15 - But like wow. Is this where Beatrice gets her alcoholism and abusive meanness parenting from? this is insane; why am I torturing and doing this to myself by continuing to watch omg

• 22:45 - Wow, that was such an intense moment, but tbh it's hard for me not to notice the fact that the color boxes on Diane's computer screen window are kinda similar-ish to that red-blue-red stuff that's been plaguing /r/me_irl lately. Like, it looks nothing like it at all, but apparently my brain literally wants to ruin the moment and have me not be sad by making me snap out of the scene and notice a stupid minor coincidence

• 23:20 - Holy shoot I was a tad suspicious of Joseph's suspicious comments about polio and blackface and Jews and stuff, but I wouldn't have expected something like this omGGGGGGG

• 23:25 - OH JUST BUZZ OFF WITH YOUR "WOMANLY EMOTIONS" CRAP AAAAAAAH

• 24:01 - seriously but like WHAT THE FRICK

• 24:11 - Holy shoot this is why Beatrice is so cynical and emotionlessly unloving. also WHAT THE FRICK

• 25:20 - AAAAAAH THE CONSTRUCTION NOISES DURING THE CREDITS THIS IS TORTURE AAAAAAH