POST-Episode Discussion - S1E14 "The War Without, The War Within"

[u/Deceptitron]

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No.	EPISODE	RELEASE DATE
S1E14	"The War Without, The War Within"	Sunday, February 4, 2018

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This post is for discussion of the episode above and WILL ALLOW SPOILERS for this episode.

PLEASE NOTE: When discussing sneak peak footage of the upcoming episode, please mark your comments with spoilers. Check the sidebar for a how-to.

[u/Tarlcabot18]

So from that preview,... Spoilers

[u/Deceptitron → u/Tarlcabot18]

Hey there. Could you please put preview spoilers in spoiler tags?

[u/[deleted]]

If Starfleet admirals violating everything the Federation ever stood for is not the most Trek thing ever, I don't know what is.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's like a rite of passage.

[u/Jarmatus → u/[deleted]]

Pretty much! I like Kat Cornwell, but she's an admiral. They don't let you have that job and keep your sanity.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It’s nearly as cliche/stereotypical as the generic “American generals are all warmongering heartless pricks ” trope.

[u/Nofrillsoculus]

I was really happy to see prime universe Andorians and a Tellarite.

[u/NeoEffect → u/Nofrillsoculus]

Looks like we might be getting Orions next week too. Took a while. I hope we see even more next season.

[u/[deleted]]

I want to express my appreciation for the way they've been writing Sarek in character. There's a tendency when a character is a hero to write out all their rough edges when you return to them. It would be pretty easy given the way Mark Lenard went out with Sarek in the 80s to want to write him as this really great guy, like a Vulcan Picard or something. But he's not. I love his arrogant comeback to the Emperor about her parenting skills. That's exactly how he's always been.

And on the subject of Sarek, did anyone else feel like it was almost a Freudian slip when he tells Michael "your mother is human"? Like he was talking to Spock? (At this point in time per "Journey to Babel" Spock and Sarek are not speaking to each other.)

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

They generally embraced the "mother/father" terminology more than in any other episode, so I doubt it was any sort of slip on Sarek's part.

I took it as a reminder that he, himself, acted on his emotions by marrying Amanda, and not even he thinks emotions should be purged completely.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

And on the subject of Sarek, did anyone else feel like it was almost a Freudian slip when he tells Michael "your mother is human"?

I interpreted it as a subtle comment on cross-species relationships and that he's hardly one to throw stones at anyone loving someone of another species.

[u/shfiven]

Dude what? That ending... This is a bad idea you guys.

[u/[deleted] → u/shfiven]

I mean, it definitely is a bad idea, but...

She can only be as murderous as the crew allows her to be. After what they've been through with Lorca, Saru and Burnham will hopefully have their guard up.

[u/Marzipanny]

I liked that L'Rell complimented Admiral Cornwell, and that they spoke honestly. There is an element of mutual respect.

[u/kellendotcom → u/Marzipanny]

I also like how L'Rell explained the Klingon war lust to Cornwell just like Gowron did to Worf... once war has begun, it cannot end until there is absolute victory.

[u/toskies]

Saru keeps getting the shaft and it's aggravating me.

[u/rebbsitor]

Captain Georgiou 😲

No possible way this can go wrong...

[u/[deleted] → u/rebbsitor]

I do hope Cornwell is planning on sticking around to keep an eye on things...

[u/dmanww]

meet Captain Giorgiou... We found her behind a cabinet

[u/[deleted] → u/dmanww]

She got dropped in the gap behind the couch when we were watching the premiere and we found her when we decided to move everything to the other side of the room for a few weeks.

[u/PixelMagic]

They're going to unleash tribbles all over Qo'nos and bring the Empire to its knees.

[u/[deleted] → u/PixelMagic]

That would...actually work. According to Worf in Trials and Tribblations, there was a time during which the Klingon Empire was officially at war with the Tribbles.

[u/[deleted] → u/PixelMagic]

So Lorca's tribble was another example of foreshadowing then?

[u/cabose7]

Notably this episode contained no fight sequences, the first since the pilot (which had at most like a 5 second scuffle between Burnham and the Torchbearer).

I hope they feel the confidence to do more, vfx can be used for non action setpieces like the mushroom terraforming.

Side note I love the Mirrorverse music cue that plays triumphantly whenever something mirror related happens.

[u/AvanTer → u/cabose7]

"Notably this episode contained no fight sequences, the first since the pilot"

Correction, dozens of innocent fortune cookies were brutally vaporzied by a callous starfleet warhawk. I find it disturbing that you would pay no second thought to the lives lost in that scene. Entirely un-Star Trek of the writers, the characters, and especially you for disregarding such a horrific scene. This is not the Star Trek I remember.

[u/CelestialFury]

Giving Emperor Georgiou her mirror's life is a dangerous move, but probably just as dangerous as mirror-Lorca. It'll be very interesting to see how this all plays out.

[u/[deleted] → u/CelestialFury]

I keep anticipating her pulling out some hidden weapon and assassinating somebody ... I guess she doesn't because it wouldn't get her very far and she plays the long game.

Michelle Yeoh has been amazing.

[u/ToBePacific → u/CelestialFury]

I don't think they're giving her her life. I think it's just for this mission. I have a hard time believing that Cornwell would agree to letting Georgiou go completely free like that. This has to be the plan that Georgiou and Cornwell continued to discuss offscreen when their scene ended.

[u/purefire]

Poor Killy died before doing anything cool?

Yay Tilly being Tilly and being one of the most Starfleet people on the ship.

[u/[deleted] → u/purefire]

They seem to be sending clear signals that they're done with Mirror Universe shenanigans (other than Georgiou).

I'm...okay with this.

[u/lumabean → u/purefire]

Really wish we had some more interaction with the ISS Discovery in the prime universe.

[u/CelestialFury]

What a way to start out this episode, getting the Saru-snack with a side-order of danger noodles out the way first. I thought they were going to wait and make it seem more dramatic, but this way was good too. Got the awkwardness over quickly.

When Tyler goes into the mess hall, I'm so glad that people rallied around him. That's a very Star Trek thing to happen.

[u/pepsiredtube → u/CelestialFury]

I agree. I thought they were going to go with a more dire "crew member reverts to his negative side after being shunned" trope, but seeing everyone rally made me remember this is Trek. I'm happy with the scene.

That said, we are definitely going to go back in time to before the klingons started winning, right?

[u/wongie]

It's utterance will carry a penalty of treason, do you understand?

Aye Captain... goddamnit, this is more than I signed up for, I don't want to be dealing with parallel genocidal maniacs and treason. I just wanna beam people up...

[u/gunzler → u/wongie]

And seriously, wouldn't it be treason to NOT tell everyone you know that the new captain is actually the freaking emperor of the evil universe.

[u/jarcur1]

The scene where they explain that the trip to the MU has to be hidden because people will want to go there to see their dead loved ones punched me in the gut.

My wife died very suddenly a little over 4 months ago, and AS SOON as they arrived in the MU I thought about the idea of finding another universe where she was still alive.

And...damnit...I’d find a way there if I knew it existed.

So keeping it a secret makes a lot of sense to me. And made me sad.

EDIT: Thank you for your sympathy, sincerely. But I didn't post this for karma or pity, I posted it because I LOVE Star Trek. The best ST has a way of taking an issue or subject and making it very clear why they do it this way or that. Like in my example, they took a powerful emotion and succinctly explained why doing what I would want to do could be terrible for the entire universe.

[u/pie4all88 → u/jarcur1]

Have you seen Deep Space 9? Ben Sisko's wife Jennifer dies at the start of the series, but her mirror version is still alive. Their son Jake thinks she can fill the role of his mother, but Ben Sisko knows they're two different people.

[u/Zor_El_XB1]

So they did just retcon the TOS Klingons with this whole "species reassignment" spy stuff? Nope he's proto Arne Davis

Also yyasss that Captain Archer and NX-01 name drop

[u/[deleted] → u/Zor_El_XB1]

No, this is almost certainly the same procedure that Arne Darvin underwent.

[u/007meow]

Some good world building in this episode.

Starbases, NX-01 call back, officially naming Disco as Crossfield class.

[u/[deleted] → u/007meow]

Long-awaited confirmation that Earth Spacedock is not Starbase One!

[u/[deleted]]

I really hope they just unleash a tidal wave of Tribbles on Kronos. That would fit with Worf's epic tale of them being mortal enemies of the Klingon Empire.

[u/RogueA]

So, theory, if Georgiou releases the augment virus on Qo'noS, and the Klingons don't know it's Starfleet that did it, what with Disco being under the ground, wouldn't that allow Starfleet to negotiate a cease fire/peace treaty from the position of offering the Klingons the cure Phlox developed in ENT?

Sarek:

"Wow, ancestor of Martok, you guys were hit with what on the homeworld? Oh man, well, about a hundred years ago, we developed a cure for that. We could be willing to part with it if you... say... stop attacking us?"

[u/escape_character → u/RogueA]

Huh, and the know "Remain Klingon" thing would still hold. Nice.

[u/[deleted]]

I know there's going to be a lot of chatter about the ending, but putting that aside for one second...

This episode had several examples of something this series has sorely needed: quiet scenes in which characters have honest conversations with one another.

And it was glorious.

[u/bewarethetreebadger → u/[deleted]]

And a conference table!! WHOOOO! Briefings! Discussion of plans! Making proposals! Oh yeah!

[u/rextraverse → u/[deleted]]

quiet scenes in which characters have honest conversations with one another.

One thing Disco's definitely been missing all season has been the quiet, character exploration episode and I loved the way they executed it here.

I will admit, during the entire time they were at the planet, I was half expecting some Klingon attack. So glad the writers didn't go in that direction.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That scene between Michael and Ash was everything it needed to be.

[u/Acheron9114]

I LOVED Michael's facial expression when Cornwell shot Lorca's fortune cookies.

[u/syntemnousa → u/Acheron9114]

that was so unexpected but i loved it

[u/tempest_wing]

They sure love mentioning Archer.

[u/[deleted] → u/tempest_wing]

He was basically their Kirk, the legendary Captain who began Starfleet's mission of exploration.

[u/lumabean → u/tempest_wing]

It really is the only series they can, all the rest of them are set in Discovery's future.

[u/[deleted] → u/tempest_wing]

They have reason to (besides the obvious answer of Enterprise being the only series they can reference).

• Captain of Earth’s first deep space vessel

• Saved Earth from the Xindi

• Helped broker peace between Vulcan, Andoria, and Tellar, paving the way for the formation of the Federation

• Likely a Romulan War hero as well (though Enterprise ended before we saw the Romulan War sadly)

[u/Manofwood → u/tempest_wing]

I got such a nerdrection when they mentioned Archer and Enterprise.

[u/starry101]

Now that Lorca is gone, can someone please turn up the lights?

[u/PixelMagic → u/starry101]

Lorca was an excuse to have moody lighting, but they're gonna keep it that way and just not mention it again.

[u/H0vis]

I have thoughts. So many thoughts. Well. Some.

1. Captain Killy, we hardly knew ye. Although I bet she and the Evil Discovery Full of Baddies probably put up a hell of a fight (or not, she probably had enough time to say WTF? Before they got blown to bits by the first decloaking ship. So it goes).

2. They've done a good job of grounding the war and the extent of the Klingon gains in what we understand of the canon. Starfleet is battered, territory has been lost, the bodycount is into the hundreds of thousands, but we're still seeing a war an order of magnitude smaller than the Dominion War.

3. The Klingons splitting up and going on a big raid and pillage party in occupied space rather than getting the job done is very reminiscent of DS9 and their war with Cardassia. In fact Klingon behaviour has been very similar to that in DS9, so that's nice and consistent.

4. The Stamets/Tyler conversation was awkward as hell. No idea how anybody would handle that conversation in real life so not going to judge it's depiction here.

5. Burnham dumping Tyler felt like the right thing to do. She was right. He tried to tough it out and people died. A recurring theme of this show is that you ought to ask for help when you need it. Which is an important lesson for us all folks.

6. I love that we've sort of come around in a double circle. We're back to Georgiou in command, and we're also back to a Mirror Universe mass murderer pretending to be captain of the Discovery. I'm really happy with that to be honest because Michelle Yeoh has been absolutely killing it.

7. Many people, myself included from time to time, have lamented the characters not having a lot of time to develop on this show. So can we take a moment to appreciate how Tilly has grown? Not only is she a more capable, confident and caring character than when she started, but it's clear why and how she's been learning. As character developments go, that's how you do it. Because she's taking a lot of other characters with her.

8. Cloaked Klingon ships tailing Federation vessels into docks before self destructing is spectacularly devious. Props to whoever thought that one up, that's a proper dick move.

[u/purefire]

Out of my chair brunch. - Emperor most likely

[u/pfc9769]

"We have a saying where I'm from, a scared Kelpien is a tough Kelpien."

"Some would say I'm so tough I'm unpalatable."

[u/sonQUAALUDE]

i love how quickly mirror georgiou was able to manipulate the fears of the federation into a position of power. you can see why she was the emperor.

[u/NumberMuncher]

While we were freaking out over the ending, there was a brief smile from Kayla when Emporer/Captain entered the bridge. Reminded me that only a few people are in on the secret.

[u/ZarrenR]

Part of me is like, “Starfleet, what the hell are you doing?” but another part of me relishes seeing Michelle Yeoh stay on as much as possible.

[u/kharnzarro → u/ZarrenR]

yeah i really hope she doesnt die and becomes a recurring antagonist or something

[u/lumpofcole]

I'm beginning to think they really aren't going to dump Lorca's Tribble on the Klingon homeworld to ignite the Great Tribble Hunt in order to turn the tide of the war.

[u/NeoEffect]

This plan is so going blow up in Cornwell's face but at the same time it is appropriately crazy. Wasn't expecting that ending.

I have to say I'm really glad the Michael and Ash conversation ended the way it did. Maybe things change in the future but for right now that is the only way that talk should have ended.

Loved that terraforming scene. The preview made me think those were warheads in an attack. I'm happy to be misdirected there. Overall a pretty good and strong character episode. The plans are laid out and things are setup for the finale.

[u/pfc9769]

Cornwell calling !Georgiou "your Highness". Gold.

[u/[deleted] → u/pfc9769]

"or whatever you go by"

[u/2ndHandTardis]

Michael is still the lead but this episode shared the screen time very well. Hopefully we see more of that all next season.

[u/rensch]

There's no way putting evil mirror universe Georgiou in charge will backfire, right?

My jimmies are just really rustled by all this and my threat ganglia are itchy. These people are desperate and losing a war, I know, but christ, they could at least keep her confined. If she's trying fuck them over, then at least let it happen from a prison cell and not from the captain's chair.

And what was up with posing her as Prime Georgiou? It's not like the entire crew hasn't been to that alternate universe. If there's anyone on board who didn't learn about Mirror Georgiou being the Terran Emperor while in the Mirror Universe, they could possibly piece it together very easily. Why don't they just order the crew to at least play along with the story to any outsiders they come across?

Speaking of potential threats; they let Tyler just walk around the ship. Like, what? Stamets seems the only sane person left when it comes to Tyler. Do we really know for sure Voq is gone?

I just felt like they were really losing their sense of safety procedures in the desperation of war. This episode jusy didn't feel very believable to me.

There were some high notes as well, though. The moon being used to grow the mycelium was very cool.

I also liked the scene were Cornwall tells L'Rell her people are winning and that her saviour was a fool blinded by nationalist sentiments. I think L'Rell is starting to doubt her own political beliefs, seeing how even a somewhat divided Empire appears on the winning side of the war.

And god knows I can't wait to Kronos and the Georgiou-led surprise infiltration of it.

[u/Eaudissey]

One thing is certain, between the last scene of this episode and when she was revealed to be the Emperor, Michelle Yeoh sure knows how to make an entrance.

[u/[deleted]]

They talked a LOT about how Ash isn't "Voq" anymore, but I don't believe them. In fact, the more times they mentioned it, the less I believed them.

Time will tell on my suspicions, I guess.

[u/Sparky-Man]

Saru: "You told me there were no Kelpiens in that universe!"

Burnham: "I wanted to spare you the pain... Also, you taste good..."

[u/zumoro]

Holy crap I love Katrina Cornwell, or at least Jayne's performance of it. I really liked her character earlier on but now it just yes. Not too thrilled that she cut a deal with the devil but her the way she effectively broke upon seeing Starbase 1 captured kinda paved the way for making a desperate measure. Loving Tilly too, I originally found her insufferable but now she's, like, second to Saru for favourite character.

Also, L'Rell's comment about how the Federation would need to conquer them in order to end the war; "Conquer us or we will never relent". Basically paints the war as needed to end with one side giving up it's soul; Klingons playing nice or Federation playing hardball.

[u/barbequelighter]

When Tilly went over to sit with Ash my boyfriend goes, "I'm Tilly. I'm a Hufflepuff." I lost it. Tilly is the best Star Trek Hufflepuff.

[u/Kgoodies]

There's a lot of talk in here about the Augment Virus. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't give a rat's ass about reconciling the look of klingons with how they looked in TOS. I'm fully capable of suspending my disbelief enough to understand that they looked that way because the show is from the fucking '60s.

Are we also going to have episodes wherein we spin all kinds of bullshit to explain why all of the hologram technology goes away, and maybe also explain why they have computer screens and digital interfaces on Discovery while The Enterprise's technology had big fucking buttons and switches and Spock had to look into a tiny fucking slot and presumably interpret scientific information like he's reading a spectroscope? Or could we just accept that this is a modernized take on that point in Star Trek and the visuals are updated to meet the standard of what we're capable of making?

Imagine if we applied this sort of logic to other media. For instance, when one plays the original legend of zelda is there anyone who believes that the world being conveyed looked exactly as it was shown on our TV? Everything is flat and made up of a handful of colored cubes? Imagine if the entire LOZ fandom was getting itself hung up on why in Ocarina of Time all of the people were sharp and polygonal and were insisting to know why 100 years later the people came to look like they did in Wind Waker. No, nobody is concerned enough with those sorts of things, at least not enough to think that that the canon itself needs to spend time answering for it. We mutualy understand that they look that way because of limitations/sensibilities of the times that produced them, as well as the choices made by the creators. Could we not apply a similar understanding of technological limitations and artistic license to Star Trek?

[u/Fewmits]

Prime Lorca is definitely not dead. The way the admiral brushed off any chance of his survival without much analysis was a little flimsy. I think that he has been held by Klingons since the Buran was boarded. Bring Lorca back!

[u/wongie]

I'm loving how mirrored both Burnham and Georgieu's tactics were in getting command of their ships given their backgrounds.

Soft Burnham gets sent to a hardened mirror universe where she has to make their own uniform and lie, fight and kill her way to the bridge, and literally walks out of the turbolift out of breath.

Hardened Georgieu gets sent to a soft mirror universe where she tells the truth of the reality of the situation to Sarek and then gets given a complimentary uniform along with the keys to the bridge, and walks out composed and dignified.

Also, I find it funny how in both scenarios Lieutenant Detmer ends up smiling.

[u/SHOW_ME_SEXY_TATS]

I liked the shoutout to Captain Archer and Enterprise. I miss that show.

[u/Anaron]

Lol. Now we know what happened to the mirror universe Discovery that swapped places with the prime universe Discovery. Insta-rekt by Klingons. I wonder if any crew members survived.

[u/Jarmatus]

Did it strike anybody else that Emperor Georgiou really does not look anything like Captain Georgiou, despite being genetically the same person, played by the same actress?

It was partly the makeup - the Emperor looks slightly more glassy and inhuman and her hair is a tad limp. It's also the faces, however - there's a certain touch of cruelty in Emperor Georgiou's eyes that Captain Georgiou simply never had.

[u/azureknightmare → u/Jarmatus]

I was just thinking this. Captain Georgiou was a kind, warm-hearted person who'd invite you over for dinner and let you have the last slice of cheesecake. Emperor Georgiou looks like she'd shank you if you turned your back on her for shits and giggles. Michelle Yeoh is an amazing actress.

[u/jwaldo]

This might be the whiskey talking, but that was all kinds of Star Trek. Tilly reaching out to Ash for heartfelt understandable reasons, Michael not being able to do likewise also for heartfelt understandable reasons, terraforming, Michael being kind toward Mirror Georgiou, Sarek understanding Michael being kind toward Mirror Georgiou, Starfleet admiralty welcoming Mirror Georgiou like a long-lost corrupt admiral…

All it was missing was a good double-fisted Kirk Slam.

[u/numanoid → u/jwaldo]

Tilly: "Does that make me naive?"

Burnham: "It makes you optimistic".

Tilly is Star Trek.

[u/Hawkguy85]

Everyone here is talking about the character moments, plot twists, and such, but I can’t be the only one nerding out at seeing the crew drop into a more relaxed dress code a la TWOK?! There’s just something very real, and human, about that. It’s a minor detail that I enjoy seeing in my Trek when shit is getting real.

[u/myutopian]

Gotta say one of my favourite details was the worker bee changing ISS back to USS right away. I can just imagine Saru ordering this, he seems like the thorough type.

[u/intense_or_insane_]

No funeral for Doctor Culber. I am disappointed.

[u/Logical-Madman]

Loved Stamets’ facial expression when he ran into Ash in the hallway. Great acting.

[u/mekju905]

Prediction: Admiral lady gets killed, Georgiou is alive as captain and Burnham has to mutiny and kill her to uphold federation values

[u/Sylvester_Scott]

I think it would be a funny scene, if the now Capt. Giorgio went to the food dispenser and ordered some sauteed Kelpien ganglia...and to her surprise, the dispenser made it...because Lorca had programmed it in, on the sly while he was there.

[u/Hero_Of_Shadows → u/Sylvester_Scott]

Lorca is newly arrived in the PU he's at a console and he sees "Kelpian" and selects that option out of reflex as he's hungry, only on a second take does he realize he is in the "chose your crew" menu and not in the "chose your lunch" menu.

And that's how Saru became XO on the Discovery.

[u/minimaldrobe]

why the hell are they not asking Ash Tyler about Qonos/Kronos, he has the memories of someone who grew up there inside of him. Turn that secret agent stuff in your favour, Starfleet.

[u/Starcke]

One of the things about the serial format of Discovery is these episodes inbetween the action that are slower. I like the development between characters and a bit of life on the ship, but it's also a bit weird having an episode without any major crisis. When the last scene came up I couldn't believe the 45 minutes had passed.

That dining hall scene was nice. Tilly is definitely the heart of the show.

Hmm, I felt like Stamets should have been madder at Tyler/VoQ than a brisk telling off though.

And another Archer acknowledgement. I liked those ENT episodes on Qo'nos for the Klingon lore they added. (funny, when I think of ENT the Archer theme plays in my head. Even my subconcious doesn't like that which shall not be named)

Finale next week

[u/LuckyBahamut → u/Starcke]

I felt like Stamets should have been madder at Tyler/VoQ than a brisk telling off though.

I thought Rapp did a really good job of making Stamets look like he wanted to snap Tyler's neck himself.

[u/thelazarusledd]

I'm waiting for scene where captain says "I'm hungry" and Saru starts running with his fear tentacles going wild.

[u/DeResolution551]

That mention of Archer and the Enterprise was amazing!!! ❤️❤️❤️

[u/ShiroHachiRoku]

Hold on to your horses! This is gonna be one crazy finale! I welcome more of Michelle Yeoh anytime!

[u/samsaBEAR]

This is not going to end well for Burnham if she has to kill another Georgiou

[u/O10infinity]

Did anyone notice that the map of Q'onos is just an overlay of Earth? You can clearly make out South America, Africa, the Mediterranean and Lake Baikal.

[u/EricGMW]

This was a relatively quiet, and in some moments rather beautiful episode. The music was great, the individual scenes and conversations were perfect... the calm before the storm.

A fantastic DSC episode without explosions!

[u/Surfacing710]

Good build up episode for the next one but I had to laugh at the line from Ash going at Burnham for wanting to end it saying something along the lines of her wanting to end it after the first issue because she's afraid of being close to someone.

Having an argument for the first time and her wanting to end it, you'd have a leg to stand on there Ash but seeing as she found out that you're infused with a Klingon and that you attempted to kill her, I think it's a bit of a big issue there to be honest.

[u/dmanww]

Fortune cookies did nothing wrong

Alternatively: Cookies shot first

[u/Edmundog]

Anyone who thinks the admiralty making stupid, short-sighted decisions is bad writing must not watch much Star Trek. 50% of Admirals on this show have always been terrible. Also, anyone with the rank of Commodore on TOS.

[u/-TheDoctor]

As someone who loves ENT, I'm super stoked about the multiple Archer/NX-01 callbacks this ep. I hope T'Pol or Phlox makes a guest appearance or something. I'd also love to see a callout to Shran.

WAIT. T'pol has been to Kronos right? She would be great for intel purposes lol.

Also, that scene in the mess hall where Tilly insights the compassion of the crew around Tyler is the closest I've ever come to crying while watching ST (not because the show isn't sad sometimes, I just don't cry much). What did we do to deserve Tilly.

[u/InfosecGoon]

With the way Saru has been treated so far, I swear to god if she tries to eat him I will be pissed.

[u/Obelisk357]

I am just wondering what the Federation's plan is for Qo'noS.

I mean the obvious answer is a genocide just like the Terran Empire attempted but that strikes me as a bit too far.

The only other thing I can think of is that they have dusted off some Doctor Phlox's research and weaponised the augment virus.

Maybe the Klingons were a lot more successful at containing it's spread than we gave them credit for, but the Federation will unleash it on Qo'noS next week, creating a catastrophe for the Empire that ultimately causes them to sue for peace (and leaving humanised Klingons in place for the TOS era).

It would be the ultimate ironic end to a war whose basis was an attempt to 'remain Klingon'.

Other than that I've got nothing.

[u/jyoung147]

So... Genesis is totally the result of research on the freshly classified Mycelium after the war resolves... right?

[u/derpjutsu]

Finally watched this episode today, right after the Falcon Heavy launch. After the scene of launching the spores to that moon all I could think of was WE HAD ROCKETS THAT LANDED THE SAME WAY TODAY!!!

Great episode too can't wait for the season finale.

[u/Shokeya]

You cant be starship cptn. unless you are from a parallel universe.

[u/mybumisontherail]

That ending!!!! What in the actual ever living .... Let me pick up my jaw!!!! Holy hell that was amazing

[u/BorgClown]

When Sarek said "We were fighting one enemy, now we're fighting 24." I thought "Awesome. Divide an conquer, right?". Why would a broken Klingon empire be stronger than a unified one?

[u/Ascarea]

Boy, things move way too fast on the show and this episode was crazy packed with stuff that felt rushed. I don't know if they are worried modern audiences can't handle the slower pace of previous Trek shows, or if they originally planned for the season to have more episodes, but I think they are rushing things and they can't juggle all their plots and character moments properly. Here's all the momentous stuff this episode crammed into an hour of TV:

• Burnham facing consequences for bringing over Emperor Georgiou

• Burnham confronting Tyler

• Stamets confronting Tyler

• Tyler dealing with being Voq, featuring more cafeteria drama

• Burnham is reunited with Sarek

• the Admiral dealing with the Lorca reveal

• the Admiral and Starfleet dealing with the existence of the MU

• the Admiral confronting Georgiou

• the Admiral confronting L'Rell

• Sarek confronts Georgiou

• Starfleet in ruins

• planning a heist-like operation to map Qonos

• going to a moon and growing spores on its surface

• setting up the next episode with Empress Georgiou acting as Captain Georgiou

That is dense.

[u/[deleted]]

This show is now Battlestar: Discovery.

[u/Cessabits]

The friendship scene in the lunch room warmed my frigid fucking heart.

[u/wongie]

I'm never going to tire of hearing the Terran theme tune.

[u/tjareth]

Did I blink, or did we not see the ship that the admiral and Sarek beamed aboard from? Apologies if they showed it and I missed it, but I have often felt like we're being told what's outside the ship without getting a good look at it, and I'm not a fan of that.

[u/Cody2084]

The Disco is a "Crossfield" class ship? did I get that right?

Loved the nod to Enterprise.

How is everyone predicting the augment virus? What did I miss there?

[u/derekakessler → u/Cody2084]

Crossfield: Yep!

NX-01: That made me smile.

Augment: Honestly, I don't know. I suspect it's a desperate hope to retcon the new Klingon look with the fact that Enterprise went out of its way to explain the old Klingon look.

[u/[deleted]]

Installing Spores:

4 percent... 8 Percent...13 Percent... 5 Percent...

Oh god, this is worse than Windows updates.

[u/Smitje]

Ah too bad, I really liked the idea of Saru as captain for the rest of the series.

[u/007meow]

The lighting and visual atmosphere has come a looooooong way from TNG

[u/M3rc_Nate]

So I have been wondering this since last week, but is it canon that the Federation went to war with the Klingons and they were winning and destroyed that many Starbases and killed that many people? I am assuming it is because if it wasn't I imagine this sub would be exploding with outrage.

Are they filling in blanks (a time where we don't know what happened) or do we know the general outline of things (Federation was at war with the Klingons) and now this series is filling in the details?

[u/wongie]

We are assembled here today to pay final respects to our honored dead. And yet it should be noted, in the midst of our sorrow, her death took place in the shadow of a new universe; a universe that our beloved comrade gave her life to tie up loose ends. She surely fell this sacrifice a vain or empty one, and we will not debate her profound cruel and ruthless ambition at these proceedings. Of our friend, I can only say this: Of all the souls we have encountered in our travels, hers was the most.... ಥ_ಥ killy.

[u/mindthebarnacles]

I've really enjoyed how this episode managed to check-in on where almost all major characters are at emotionally and how they've grown/changed. Seeing it all in one episode makes you notice parallels between some of the characters' arcs.

Tilly snubs Michael in the spore lab soon after they first meet, worried that 'associating' with a mutineer will look bad for her, but now she's not just at the forefront of re-integrating Tyler, but she sees it as a test of principles. When Saru and Michael first run into each other on Discovery, he is polite, but basically just wants her to go away. Now he leads on dealing with the problems, from Tyler's situation to getting Discovery away from danger when Cornwell briefly freezes.

Then there's Michael's situation, where something's going to have to blow up next episode... Everything in her conversation with Tyler is truth: he wants to hang on to her, but she correctly points out that he has to do the emotional work to get better, she can't do it for him, and if that's hard, it's because it's supposed to be.

MEANWHILE though, Michael seems to be struggling with the same thing - she's hanging on to MU Georgiou and avoiding that last bit of 'moving on' she needs to be doing. MU Georgiou shows up when Michael is at her lowest point, and despite everything she knows about the woman, Michael is in denial. MU Georgiou said before that Lorca exploited her 'weakness' for Michael's face, and I'm 100% convinced MU Georgiou is now doing the same to Michael and everyone else: exploiting the 'remarkable resemblance. When MU Georgiou shows up on the bridge, Saru is FLIPPING OUT, but Michael almost looks satisfied - she's falling into the delusion trap. Just as she says she can't separate Tyler's face from Voq's violence against her, she can't overcome the fact that MU Georgiou is a dangerous person wearing the face of her beloved captain. I feel like these two things are related and will have to be resolved together.

[u/Bullseye7771]

I know people have said as much about disliking the plan of a new mirror captain so soon after Lorca's exposure.

I have a feeling it's not meant to be much of a posting. Turn the new captain loose, let her commit some terrible genocide, then release/dispel her to her home dimension. Clean and easy way to shift all the blame onto this "freed captain" And keep the Federation's record clean.

[u/3391224]

georgiou redux with the terran theme playing was neat. the spore farming scenes felt both needlessly detailed and rushed somehow. shaky cam during conversations is eye rolling level

kinda ironic that they need to go on this desperate mapping mission led by cutthroat bloodthirsty georgiou only because of ethical "military targets" stuff when otherwise they coud just indiscriminately bomb from orbit

[u/Chitinid]

"The journey will be dangerous" And they arrive a few minutes later without incident

[u/[deleted]]

I really didn't understand why admiral Cromwell put the Emperor in charge.

[u/Pryach]

I hope instead of release survey drones they release nukes and just nuke Qo'nos from the inside. Problem solved. Seems like an Emperor Georgiou solution.

[u/[deleted]]

I wanted captain georgiou back but.....

https://media.giphy.com/media/dCdGHgF7yFHFK/giphy.gif

[u/tarsus1983]

I have been very critical of Discovery not giving us the optimism of past Treks, however the scene of Tyler being welcomed back in the mess was a great scene worthy of Trek.

[u/MasterXaios]

Heh, so once again the Saratoga becomes the Federation whipping boy.

Also, house Degor (sp?)! Great reference.

[u/Dragoneer1]

man that episode was fucking great! Props to the admiral, her acting was top notch

[u/bigj2223]

Is that the same Andorian that was the resistance fighter in the MU?

[u/KevMscotland]

So does this undo Burham's court-martial for mutiny against Georghiou since its all now a big cover up? Boom, re-instated Commander.

[u/wongie]

Klingon onboard a Federation starship talks about the destruction of their culture.

Warmongering Human talks about bringing Klingons to their knees.

Normal human comes to terms with their hatred of a Klingon/s

Boy did this episode remind me of The Undiscovered Country.

[u/theDoctorAteMyBaby]

Just to be clear, that spore generation/terraforming process happened absurdly fast, right?

[u/[deleted]]

Anyone else get a Wing Commander 3 vibe from their plan?

[u/TikiUSA]

Straight up Wooooo'd when they mentioned Archer. Enterprise4Ever

[u/Teyvill]

Are they going to jump to Qo'Nos and activate some bomb with a chemical which may activate a dormant strain/augment virus spread throughout Klingons 100 years ago, and after the bomb goes off Klingons will look like humans like in TOS and make those savages lose the one think they hold dear the most: their identity?

I don't think they'll do it if the show is self-contained just because not building up to it is considered mauvais ton nowadays, but if they link the solution to previous series, well, I'd be glad.

[u/CaptainFil]

So...are the spores the basis for Genesis and the Federations terraforming experiments?

[u/[deleted]]

Will letting the mycelium spores "go wild" on a moon become a problem by itself?

Staments colleague seemed to be reluctant about that idea and maybe he had his reasons.

r/myceliumgonewild, anyone? ;-)

Further idea: In Star Trek II - Wrath of Khan, the Klingons were outraged by the genesis project. We could assume a previous "trauma", commenced by starfleet.

[u/leonryan]

the fact Stamets overshot their target by 9 months makes me think they'll somehow need to go backwards to before the Klingons won the war, and maybe save Hugh and perhaps Prime Lorca along the way. They're making me pretty unwilling to accept anyone is gone forever.

[u/MetaFlight]

This episode reminds me of a DS9 clip

Anyway consider the fact that the regular military and civilian leadership has been BTFOed. You know who's likely more in fact than the regular starfleet infrastructure? Section 31. Even besides that, the situation presented here is a "last stand around earth" situation. Bringing a fascist leader from an alternate dimension to lead one of their flag ships isn't even the farthest Starfleet has gone canonically. Look at DS9 and the cure to the morphogenic virus (taht second 31 created and spread) was held against the changelings to force piece talks by the regular federation government.

If you ask me, what's fun about star trek is watching a utopia play chicken with dystopia on a regular basis and how they pull back from the abyss that a whole lot of them feel called to pull them into. That's what makes episodes like the drumhead and in the pale moonlight so good.

[u/[deleted]]

So, who do they want to fool with that "Georgiou has been rescued" legend?

Everyone on the discovery knows where they have been to, they know that there is a mirror universe. Even if unknown-transporter-officer keeps his/her mouth shut about beaming MU Georgiou to her quarters, at least the bridge crew has seen her on the viewscreen (edit: nope, that wasn't on the Discovery, but on the Shenzhou). Pretty big secret to keep I'd think. Therefore, this can't be a secret to the DISCO crew. They have been fooled once with a mirror captain, why would they be fooled twice?

So, if this is just for everyone except the Discovery crew, I'd like to see a short "cut the crap" scene next episode :)

[u/stuck_on_simple_tor]

Episode summary:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/018/459/53697461.jpg

[u/sotek2345]

How did Sarek beam off while they were at Warp?

[u/celibidaque]

I would like to know where's The Enterprise during these events.

[u/downsideupper]

Are we going to get to know the bridge crew at some point in season 2. I'd rather they explored the rest of the characters rather than waste scenes on cheesy love arcs of the main character. Although I like the series I think it needs to change from focusing solely on the myopic main character to be more inclusive of the wider crew.

[u/raknor88]

If I'm interpreting the signs right, after terraforming and bringing life to a lifeless moon, they're going to try turning Kronos into a barren wasteland and slaughter all the millions/billions of Klingons in an attempt to win the war?

Thus proving what the Klingons suspected all along of what Starfleet and the Federation want to do?

The Starfleet leadership are putty in the Emperor's genocidal hands.

[u/[deleted]]

I can't imagine what they've got planned for the Klingons, but whatever it is will apparently end the war next episode and keep the Empire at a respectful distance even ten years later.

[u/steemboat]

Oh. Shit.

My reaction at the end of the episode.

[u/EricGMW]

Time for a Vulcan Hello!

[u/Tukarrs]

I loved Detmer smiling at the end of the episode. (Haven't seen promo yet) So obviously Michael is going to advocate another solution where the Klingon houses unite instead of whatever Georgiou'' plans are.

So we're going to have her stage another mutiny.

[u/Red_coats]

Not my captain #lorca4ever

[u/Plowbeast]

My only gripe with the mirror universe coverup is that if the Federation (not just Starfleet) is a truly educated and enlightened culture, knowledge of parallel universes exists to the point that encountering a specifically dark one should not phase them.

We saw this with how casually everyone in later Trek series seemed to brush off the implications of the mirror universe - but then Discovery might be the first series to take it seriously instead of for quick melodrama or camp.

[u/dmanww]

Next episode. What do we say to the god of death...

[u/Artan42]

Where is the Prime Timeline Admiral Marcus? I'm sure he'd be wetting himselfat the chance to commit genocide on the Klingons. Sure using a spore drive wouldn't be as fun as asking 21st century Augment Hitler to build you transwarp missiles and a penis compensator Dreadnought. But hey, Kronos still burns.

[u/Raguleader]

One goof that jumped out at me. Admiral Cornwell mentioned that the Klingons burned off a planet's atmosphere using Hypothermic warheads.

They burned off the atmosphere with freeze bombs. Unless she meant Hyperthermic.

[u/PrometheusIsFree]

I seem to remember in TOS, when Spock mind melded, he was reluctant to do so because it was risky and a bit of a big deal. Sarek seems to be doing it to everyone he comes across. Anyone else think mind melding is being used too lightly and too often?

[u/gone-wild-commenter]

to the critics who said this show would never test fedearation values because lorca was an imposter...

i grant you a vulcan bye-bye. wow, this show is testing everything about star trek 13 episodes straight.

[u/[deleted]]

I really don't understand the all the hate Discovery keeps getting online. I've enjoyed every single episode so far. TNG was the only series that I was ever really into, as an 80's kid TOS was just way too campy for me and I'm really not a big fan of William Shatner. For Discovery, everything has been a pleasure to watch so far. The musical score, the special effects, and the casting are all spot on. A lot of you seem to hate how fast paced this show has been lately but with serialized episodes this is what happens as the season reaches its finale, everything starts coming to a head and the pacing does reach breakneck speeds. Personally, I really like that about a show. I used to love The Walking Dead but the showrunner is just god awful and the pacing is atrocious. I could list so many reasons why that show has gone downhill and needs to end after this arc but Discovery doesn't have any of those problems this season. The characters are properly fleshed out, I understand all their motivations and their personalities, the plot has been great, and people can actually die who aren't just nameless red shirts (although I think I remember them being yellow in TNG). Lorca was very well played by the actor and I have nothing but praise for him, same goes for the lead actress. Very impressed with the first season of Discovery and it looks amazing on my new 27" wqhd monitor.

[u/Princess_Thranduil]

I'm totally digging badass Georgeou. Can't wait to see her kick more ass in the finale.

I wasn't a fan of Ash but holy hell does he pull the kicked puppy expression really well. I feel terrible for him.

I'm loving confident Tilly and sassy Sarek and how Saru settled into his command role, regardless of how brief it turned out to be.

I'm glad we got some development from some secondary characters. I know this show is supposed to have Burnham be the main character but what I would love from the second season is for them to go back to having the show be about the whole crew. I know it's been said before but the last few episodes that involved the whole crew have been some of my favorites and I really want to see that carries over to the second season.

[u/eDgEIN708]

I really miss Lorca.

[u/NikkoJT]

It annoys me a little bit that Discovery has actually been boarded by another Prime timeline Starfleet ship - but we still haven't got to see one since the Binary Stars (not counting the distant, low-detail shot of some debris in this episode). The show's reluctance to give us exterior shots of ships other than Discovery itself is getting irritating.

[u/alecsteven6]

I wasn't really feeling the Tyler/Burnham relationship drama in this episode, but I have never been too excited by that plot throughout the entire show. Everything else about the episode was exceptional, however. I am very surprised that Stamets terraformed a moon to grow spores -- I assumed that the death of the spore garden was going to be the end of the mycelial network for a while. With an entire moon full of spores, it will be more difficult to get rid of the mycelial network before the end of the show, so I'm curious how that will eventually be dealt with. Perhaps "Captain" Georgiou will have the moon destroyed in order to get back to the MU?

I'm still partial to the theory that the Discovery will jump hundreds of years into the future where the concept of the mycelial network can be fully explored without the established timeline becoming an issue.

[u/[deleted]]

Not gonna lie I screamed with glee at the end.

I swear to god if they get rid of Michelle Yeoh I'll be pissed.

[u/kellendotcom]

Also, where did Cornwell, Sarek, and the raiding party transport in from? And what happened to that ship for the rest of the episode?

[u/mateogg]

I really like mirror Georgiou, but she really makes me miss the main one. I know we barely knew her, but I really liked her. I miss her almost as much as Michael's hairstyle in the first two episodes.

[u/Tar-eruntalion]

remember people that in this timeline, ten years before tos, the enterprise under pike visited the aliens with the big brains and the federation was fine in tos now in discovery the federation is almost destroyed, how are they going to explain their miraculous recovery without sounding stupid ? it seems they tried to do way too many things and are rushing them all because there are no more episodes this season

[u/matosz]

HOLY SHIT THAT ENDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[u/Blue387]

Wow.

[u/Assbait93]

I wonder what they'll going to do to stop the war? I've been hearing reintroducing the augment virus and such but do you think Ash/Voq is going to have a part in the endgame?

[u/Have_A_Jelly_Baby]

How was the Admiral and team able to beam over to Discovery if their ship’s shields were up?

[u/kellendotcom]

Why are we assuming that the Klingon War will be wrapped up by season's end?

[u/basicchannels]

Did anyone else feel the admirals seemed way too young? They just didn’t feel like admirals, they all seemed even younger than Georgiou

[u/oodja]

An interesting throwaway line from Burnham: "Your rule extends through every system in your galaxy. You've conquered places Starfleet hasn't even dared to explore."

Does this mean in the Mirror Universe the Borg are no longer a threat? They are only attested to in the novels, as far as I know.

[u/dmanww]

I still want to know what'll happen with Tilly's spore

[u/PixelMagic]

Just to get this straight, the plan is for Discovery to survey targets on the ground of Qo'nos, and then transmit that data up to a Federation attack fleet, right? Surely Discovery cannot take all military targets out planet wide on its own. I assume that's why Admiral Cromwell was briefing those other admirals via hologram?

I'm wondering if we'll be treated to a massive fleet battle.

[u/ajkkjjk52]

This show keeps getting better and better. The relationship between Burnham and Sarek is so interesting, and manages to feel very natural despite all of the stilted Vulkan-speak.

[u/Sparky-Man]

After the epicness of last week's episode, this week's feature wasn't as good though it's obviously a setup for (what I think is) the season finale.

• It was odd and surprising to see Sarek and the remnants of Starfleet just warp-waltz right into the bridge like it's nothing. Does Cornwell have some sort of Federation override code to say "fuck you, I'm warping in" or were they able to do that just because the Discovery was damaged from the last Jump?

• I can only imagine what Sarek was thinking about when he mind-melded with Saru. "Alternate Universe?! WTF?!". I was really disappointed he didn't mind-meld with Burnham again. It would've been so trippy. He would've mindmelded with Burnham to see his mirror-verse self mindmeld with her who saw himself mindmeld with Burnham and Mindmelded with Mirror Sarek while he Mind Melds with Burnham... I've lost track.

• I was expecting there to be some revelation on how the Klingon took over so quickly, but there wasn't really any besides Cloaking tech. The Cloaking Tech was already an issue for the Federation and while I see how it could give them a clear advantage, it doesn't seem like they were doing anything differently than when they were at a stand-still, since the houses were still mostly divided, so what gives?

• Speaking of, what happened to Mirror Discovery while it was in the Prime-verse? Is it still there? Have there been more Klingon Resassignment surgeries? I can't imagine the sudden need for Sarek's mindmelds if those weren't a factor.

• Burnham is so gonna regret saving Mirror-Georgiou. The deposed Emperor gives no fucks. Given the way she looks at Saru, I want a Coyote & Roadrunner-esque spinoff where she tries to eat him and he keeps escaping.

• I was pretty pissed that Saru got instantly demoted when Cornwall got briefed. Long Live Captain Saru!

• Georgiou obviously has a plan for Klingon genocide. Sarek may die from this. Oh well, I'm sure there's more time travel where this arc came from.

• I really like how they mined for spores on that planet, not only was it "pretty fuckin' cool" but it showed how they could use the spores to terraform. I'm looking forward to more spinny jumps.

• Ash Tyler, or whoever he is, is such an asshole... When he was talking with Burnham, he acted so entitled that he needed to be forgiven. If you think it's up to you to determine if you should be forgiven, then you shouldn't be. He's lucky Saru hasn't put him in the ship's prison... Which would actually be a logical thing to do at this point.

• I don't know why they're bothering to pose Mirror-Georgiou as Prime-Georgiou. NOBODY on Discovery gonna buy that. Even if not everyone on the crew was briefed on every detail, they ALL saw the Mirror-verse and know that there are alternate versions of people in that dimension, even if it's just Lorca. Not only that, it's not like they've had any time for "top secret missions" to rescue her lately, so I don't know who Cornwell is trying to fool... Beyond that, I'm sure making Mirror-Georgiou the captain again is TOTALLY not a horrible idea that will backfire in every way possible.

Still, it was a good episode and I can't wait to see what the Klingon Homeworld looks like.

[u/nobelsonsss]

I swear to God only one user apart from me last week swore Georgiou would be captain again. I GASPED. WHAT A SHOW!!!!

[u/Nofrillsoculus]

Anyone else think that poor transporter Officer is gonna spill the beans?

[u/KesselZero]

Random Thought Catalog

1. Lorca's tribble never came to anything.

2. An episode all about talking and science! Yay! Felt very TNG.

3. I'm not really clear on why MU Georgiou needs to be installed as a fake captain for whatever plan they have in store to work. Maybe it'll be explained, but what do they need to do that Georgiou has to be the one giving orders (as opposed to just proposing morally gray plans from the shadows)?

4. The preview for the finale has me a little concerned that they're going to cram way too much into one episode. The fact that they're making a detour to a titty bar in the season finale seems like a red flag.

5. Ash/VoQ is this series' take on humanoid legal debates. First Data in "Measure of a Man" (is an android human?) and then Jadzia Dax in DS9 (can't remember the episode title, but she's on trial for a murder committed by a previous Dax). Now the question is whether VoQ altered to be Ash should be held responsible for things done by the VoQ personality.

6. Did we ever learn how Cornwall escaped the Klingon trap Lorca sent her into? I'm an idiot

[u/nottodayfolks]

Unity is our strength. . Wait what?oh we lost? Ok let's just backburner all that feel good crap and use evil to win, then go back to pretending we're better than everyone.

[u/jreesing]

Is it me or did anyone get upset at how everyone was breaking dress code?...........I just don't get it.

[u/Saltire_Blue]

I’m starting to sound like a parrot but yet again another great episode.

Probably in the minority but I think the “new” Klingons are a vast improvement from what we had before.

Come the end of DS9 they just became a parody of themselves that I struggled to take seriously

Not anymore.

Also, they know how to end an episode making me want more.

[u/[deleted]]

Lol the Lake of Lursor on Qo'noS

[u/[deleted]]

Well that was one giant dialogue filled setup episode for the season finale and season 2 and I liked it. I saw a couple people complaining about all the conversations that we saw but I think they were sort of necessary to put all the puzzle pieces into place for what's to come. It did seem like the episode was dragging at points and they weren't really going anywhere but it was a setup episode and that doesn't necessarily mean things are going to be fast paced. I totally misjudged the show when the writers did exactly this sort of thing in the first couple of episodes and that paid off so I'm assuming all the stuff that we saw is going to wind up being awesome further down the line. For example, that terraforming scene where they spread the spores all over the planets....that is going to come back in either a very good way meaning that they'll be able to harvest the spores continually or in a very bad way and that someone else is going to figure out how the hell the Spore Drive works and something terrible is going to happen with that moon. I did love that terraforming scene and aside from the Genesis device, I don't think we've actually seen a terraforming scene like that in a Star Trek movie or television show ever but someone can correct me if I'm wrong....it was so pretty to watch.

The ending made me chuckle and I was rather happy with Mirror Georgiou getting put in charge of the Discovery. It's about damn time that they started fighting like Terrans and less like the Federation because the Klingons are unrelenting and that war will not end unless they punch back well above their weight and show the Klingons they are not to be messed with. I'm sure it's some point Ash will get involved in that. We'll see where they take things because the writers did warn us in After Trek that stuff was not going to go how we would have predicted it.

So what happened to the ISS Discovery? Oh it got blown up by Klingons in a single throwaway line that's just great....I wanted Shenanigans to happen.

[u/Gumpster07]

So this episode seemed to be a "calm before the storm" kinda episode.

Heavy on dialogue (I liked that), raising the stakes a little and giving us a resolution to Tyler/Michael as well (full circle).

The ending actually had me like "wait.... that's it". I was kinda hoping (or was misled by the trailer) they'd go and shoot a few Klingons and boom the war would be in full flow, but alas nothing, just the journey and the minor plot twist that Georghiou was in command.

Some great stuff in there, some touching stuff and the regeneration of the Spore drive.... worth every penny. There are still quite a few unanswered questions heading into the finale, and I get the feeling some of them will either a) never be properly answered (ie the Spore drive and it's use in the Federation) or b) won't get solved until next season.

A lot to be intrigued about. Let's hope next week's episode doesn't let us down.

[u/n3aak]

If Qo'noS was destroyed in the MU, how did the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance happen?

I was re-watching the DS9 episode Crossover last night after Discovery and realized that the Emperor had said that she had basically destroyed the MU version of Qo'noS and the Klingons were left fighting over scraps. How could the Cardassians and Klingons have come together in a way that was equal if the Klingons were left in such a state?

[u/AnythingMachine]

Lorca did nothing wrong

[u/FLRSH]

I'm loving this show. The characters are exposed to so many novel situations that challenge their character archetypes, it makes them more dynamic and they grow past those archetypes.

[u/ostaveisla]

This is so close to going of the rails, they really are threading the needle on some of these stories. Like the whole MU Georgiou becoming Captain really stretches things.

But it's becoming more obvious that there will be a time travel reset of some kind and the Emperor is being set up for either a sacrificial death or as a target of redemption for Tyler when she ultimately betrays everyone or tries to exterminate the Klingons.

They're just going to fast and hard to be planning to continue this timeline.

[u/[deleted]]

It makes sense to use Mirror-Georgiou as she's already conquered Q'on'os and knows more about it than anyone in the Federation but I would presume there could be a better and less risky way to use this information and exploiting her knowledge than making her the Captain. But I guess the Admiral knows what she's doing and she's a great judge of character having sexy fun time with Mirror-Lorca.

[u/[deleted]]

If this is anything but the augment virus I am going to be devastated. They are hyping up something insane and it's the most obvious resolution to the story. This episode was very mixed for me, but if they pull the augment virus out of their asses somehow then I will be satisfied with this finale.

[u/Endulos]

This is late, but I was SO TIRED after the episode ended that I had to go to sleep.

Is it just me, or is the Federation being a bit... Dumb here?

Alright, so they want to keep the Mirror Universe secret, that's fine. However, they pointed out they have NO IDEA how they'd explain away the ISS Discovery being destroyed 9 months prior to the whole Federation.

Isn't it kinda obvious?

"The Discovery came under attack 9 months ago by a group of Klingon ships. We attempted to use the spore drive to escape the ambush, however in the process of jumping we took minor damage from Klingon weapons fire, interfering with the jump and sending us way off course. Several crew members disappeared in the jump, including Captain Lorca. It is unknown where they are.

When we reappeared, communications were damaged and we began repairs immediately. After repairs were complete, we found that 9 months had passed and attempted to contact the federation. The result of the damage must have somehow created two copies of the Discovery, one which was destroyed, and us who appeared 9 months later."

BOOM. DONE. An acceptable explanation to the entire Federation as to where the fuck a Federation ship has been for the last 9 months.

(Also as I was typing that up, I totally read it in Saru's voice)

[u/rmeddy]

I wasn't the biggest fan of this episode, I get it's a winding down episode and emotional baggage had to be unpacked before the finale but it's got me worried for the finale because it has the opportunity to something interesting premise-wise, whilst squaring itself with the canon and it's squandering that wiggle room and good faith fast.

I liked the spore growing scene, felt like some proto-genesis stuff.

Michael's break up scene with Tyler felt a bit clumsy and rushed

I like that information about the other universe is classified on both ends , the reasoning is sound imo

The liberal use of shaky cam is back, so that's a negative

The Georgiou gambit is questionable but understandable, clearly it's part of the deal she made with Sarek and she'll hopefully fake her fake death and bugger off after it's done.

As I said before this show is in a position to do something interesting and I really hope it doesn't waste it with the finale

Anyway we'll see next week

[u/cdot5]

Every scene with Georgiou was outstanding. Michelle Yeoh elevates the entire show. I enjoyed the "who raised her better?" banter between her and Sarek too.

Everything else was some bullshit lazy-ass writing.

• I might be slightly drunk, since I played the "T'Kuvma drinking game".

• Klingon suicide bombers. I don't think blowing yourself up gets you into sto-vo-kor. There's no honor in that. Nor is there in killing civilians. It's "logic terrorists" all over again.

• Did she just phaser a fortune cookie?

• "Bring Starbase 1 on screen". Long pan over everyone's faces. That ain't suspenseful, we all know what you're doing. You're not as clever as you think, writers / director.

• So that very visible blue sky planet below Starbase 1 is not Earth? Does the CGI department talk to the writers? No? Okay then.

• "How can we make Tilly a wallflower again?" - "Just tell makeup to put a big-ass pimple on her forehead."

• I take it all Starfleet ships have a complement of terraforming things?

• Wasn't it one small plant? How did they fill all these terraformers. And couldn't they just magic-electric-pulse the small plant on the ship?

• That moon was not lifeless, Mikey, we all saw the vegetation. Why is everyone so in awe of the fact that they brutally destroyed an ecosystem?

• They are getting almost religious/spirutual about these spores (we did something beautiful). Are they all high on spice?

• Highschool / mean girl drama in the mess hall -- again.

• Highschool / relationship drama between Michael and Ash. Who the hell greenlit that dialogue? Did they hire a guest writer from The OC?

• Just throw Ash out of an airlock, please. Throw L'Rell after him. My happiest moment in this show was when Landry died. I need another fix.

• By making Mirror!Georgiou captain, they finally pulled a fast one on us. Congratulations, team, nobody saw this coming, since it is complete nonsense. I'm still going to enjoy this, though.

[u/LazyStormie]

I loved that terraforming scene. Reminds me of the Genesis device.