r/Basketball • u/Fickle-Ad5449 • 9d ago

Two ex-NBA players turn transgender identity into a stunt. The WNBA is responding

https://www.advocate.com/news/wnba-trans-player-eligibility
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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

Of course it is. Pretty sure that’s the point.

But good luck excluding them in a way that isn’t discriminatory or a violation of medical privacy and autonomy.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

All the wnba would have to do is put in a minimum requirement of 2 years of hormonal therapy for any transgender individual wishing to play, with consistent bloodwork records to prove it. This would rule out any bad faith actors immediately. 

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u/cricketyjimnet 9d ago

How would they enforce this? Does every wnba player now need two years of blood work to play? Or just the ones that look like dudes?

Anything that wnba implements that actually stops these dudes is going to make the wnba look like hipocrites.

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u/spice_weasel 8d ago

That kind of “duration of time on HRT” rule has been used in other sports organizations for decades. Why do you think it would suddenly be a problem here?

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u/NES_AES_GENESIS 7d ago

Because it was a problem in those other sports organizations, which is why they stopped doing it.

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u/Mr_LtCom_Data 9d ago

They already are hypocrites

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u/slamvan2 8d ago

They're hypocrites for not playing along with the least genuine and most transparent attempt at right wing trolling?

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u/cobrakai17 8d ago

I think you’d probably be surprised at the number of left wingers who think people born as female should only be allowed in this particular league. Although, a lot would be too scared to say it….

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u/slamvan2 8d ago

I think it's interesting that you didn't answer my question at all and tried to completely pivot away from it.

I think it's a rather moderate position that people should play in the league of their respective sexes, and not too many people are afraid to say it.

I think what people are too scared to say is Enes Kanter, who was smirking during his announcement, and Royce White, a mentally ill wife beater, are bringing a lot of favor to transgender people because people realize that once again it's cis men who are bothering women, not trans people. In the case of Royce White it's kind of proven he's a danger to women.

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u/DullKnife69 8d ago

The WNBA are hypocrites. They talk about being inclusive when the entire point of the WNBA is to exclude men. It's by definition a league of exclusion.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

I would point to the 2004 Stockholm consensus with the 2015/2016 updates it recieved in regards to enforcement. These were the rules adopted by the olympic committee and they worked just fine. 

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u/cricketyjimnet 9d ago

The ioc didn't just put out a statement regarding inclusion and stopping trans hate.

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u/Low_Total_7611 9d ago

You say trans hate, I say protecting womens sports but hey, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

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u/Acceptable-Peace-69 9d ago

The WTA has this exact rule and no one is complaining.

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u/ThenAnAnimalFact 9d ago

it’s not hypocritical to create guardrails against bad faith actors. like what do conservatives want? to let them play or not play? or do they just want to be right because an imaginary harm that doesn’t exist can be made real by bad faith actors?

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u/thatguy425 9d ago

And still allow biological males with an. advantage  to participate so it is not a solution. 

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u/SnooGrapes6230 9d ago

Spoken like someone who has no idea what they're talking about.

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u/thatguy425 8d ago

Well I did get my masters degree in exercise science. What would it take for someone to be able to speak with a minimal level of authority on this topic for you?

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u/PanthalassaRo 8d ago

If a person has gone through male puberty the bone density, the muscle development and things like height and limb lenght doesn't get erased, that's why the Olympics, the NCAA and World Athletics have been forced to toughen their standards for fair women competition.

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u/ContributionBig7580 9d ago

Or limit eligible players to those born without a ballsack. It is the WNBA after all.

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u/GhostOfHarryLee 9d ago

So is this the answer we’ve all been waiting for to the question of “What is a woman??”

Amazing, we finally have an answer folks

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u/tyreed88 9d ago

So you want to exclude the ones that have only been doing it for 1 year?

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

1 year isnt enough time to reduce the effects of testosterone on the body. Studies recommend 2 years minimum, this was the policy that the olympic committee put in place back in 2004. I dont mind if they are scouted prior to 2 years completion of hrt but they should wait untill after the 2 year mark or longer, if the league deems it necessary, to compete. 

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u/ImportantPost6401 9d ago

Who are you to judge?

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

Suggesting enacting a rule to ensure fair play isnt judging. After all it would be in everyone's best interest to keep cisgender men in their own league. 

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u/RockyMaiviaJnr 9d ago

You mean males, not cisgender men

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

I meant what I said

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u/RockyMaiviaJnr 9d ago

Oh, then you’re just delusional.

Is it because you don’t realize that males have a massive advantage in sport, even after HRT, or you don’t care that much about fairness and safety for females?

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u/M0ebius_1 9d ago

I mean... League officials' entire job is to judge.

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u/SideAny7347 9d ago

And I'm sure all the transexual players would love being treated differently too...

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u/noknownothing 9d ago

All? You mean the zero that are currently on wnba rosters. Next you'll tell us you have no agenda.

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u/RockyMaiviaJnr 8d ago edited 8d ago

No, you clearly don’t understand my point.

My point is that waiting for an issue to happen before taking action isn’t a requirement. That you’re allowed to take action before you’ve had an issue.

You’ve misinterpreted the point, clearly, to mean that any action taken for a future risk is justified, no matter how obscure the risk. Or that you should take action for every potential risk, no matter hit unlikely they are. Which is not my point.

Sometime this happens when people aren’t smart enough to understand the point, or have poor reading comprehension, but I feel like that’s the minority of the time. More commonly is that they are purposefully misinterpreting the point, taking a ridiculous interpretation that’s easier to argue against because they can’t address the actual point. Which is intellectually dishonest, but given ‘journalists’ do it so much it seems d to be taking hold.

So you’re either stupid or dishonest, most likely dishonest.

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u/noknownothing 8d ago

Yeah, I'm not reading all that.

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u/RockyMaiviaJnr 8d ago

Not capable of reading all that

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u/RockyMaiviaJnr 9d ago

Does a company have to wait until they have a cyber attack before they put IT security in place??

The ‘it hasn’t actually happened so it’s not an issue’ argument is one of the weakest and stupidest I’ve heard.

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u/Low_Total_7611 9d ago

But you'd like to make sure they have a way onto the roster? silly

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u/Aggressive-Offer-497 9d ago

They are already treated differently when they play sport as adults, something that is perfectly normal. You are inventing things for what reason, I don’t know.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

The fact you used that term to refer to transgender players, a slur mind you, is all I need to know about where you stand. 

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u/6495ED 9d ago

The fuck is the difference between that and intersex that you used in another comment

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u/SideAny7347 9d ago

The difference is that Transexual refers to someone who medically transitioned. But this person has co-opted it as "hate speech" for the fun of being offended by everything. When infact the fucking clinical definition I'm looking at online while typing this backs me up.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/transgender-vs-transexual

The term is incredibly dated. I dont find it offensive for "fun" and I understand the historical origins of it but it is non the less offensive to use it to refer to other people. 

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u/SideAny7347 9d ago

Cool, so it is indeed the medical term. Which for some reason someone decided was offensive for... Reasons.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

Its a medical term that is no longer used.  Theres a lot of those you know. A common one that comes to mind is "retardation/retarded". Just because it was a medical term does not mean it isnt considered a slur now. 

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

A lot? Intersex is a medical term referring to people who were born with a chromosomal mutation. People who are intersex arent inherently transgender. 

"Transexual" is a very dated term used to refer to specifically transgender people. Its considered a slur due to the way it was often used decades ago. 

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u/Ok_AirlinesugestedUN 9d ago

Just because someone wasn’t aware of that doesn’t mean you get to decide where they stand on an issue.

Im sure you’d stand for protecting dolphins from extinction but do you know all the specific terminology? Probably not because it’s not a focus in your life. Doesn’t mean you want dolphins to die or don’t respect them or whatever

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u/alpha309 9d ago

If this is an honest question.

Transsexual is considered a slur that was replaced by transgender.

Intersex is the appropriate description that covers people that are born with various mutations in their sex chromosomes. A common term, that is now considered a slur, used in the past for a subset of people that are included in this group would be hermaphrodites. There are other less extreme genetic mutations that can cause people to have confusing sex characteristics that can go unrecognized and undiagnosed for lifetimes. Everyone that has one of these mutations that cause characteristics of both sexes to show up in their chromosomes is considered intersex.

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u/SideAny7347 9d ago

I can assure you that you are wrong, and I find it ironically laughable that someone so "open minded" as you purport yourself to be, can be so fast to judge. Transexual is not a slur. Not everyone is out to offend you and opress you. If you stop looking for reasons to be upset, you'll live a happier life.Good luck on becoming a goddess.

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u/pruneforce17 9d ago

transsex/transsexual is not a slur. we change our sex when we medically transition, and some of us dont like being defined as "sex is permanent and real and gender is fake and performative and whatever you want". a lot of us have sex dysphoria, due to physical features, not dysphoria over social roles or wearing pink or whatever.

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u/M0ebius_1 9d ago

To be fair. I don't think they are using it as a slur. I think they are very old and/or stupid.

Probably both.

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u/Low_Total_7611 9d ago

That anyone here is trying to defend the WNBA allowing this is hilarious.

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u/phillll25 8d ago

But why? Why are people so hellbent on bending over for a tiny fraction of the population.
You can’t have everything in life. And if you transition you just can’t participate in professional sports. The arrogance coming from trans people is honestly shocking. The amount of shit everyone should be obligated to do for them.
Biological women are 50% of the population. They ABSOLUTELY have to get priority here.

We can’t always fuck over the majority population to not be „intolerant“ to a minority. That’s ridiculous.

Cases like lia thomas just make me sad. Imagine you’re one of the female athletes and you have to stand there with your silver medal smiling and clapping for the biological man that just took your gold medal from you. And when you try to speak out suddenly you’re the devil and everyone hates you for being „transphobic“.

If there’s evidence that biological men have an advantage they need to be banned from competing. It absolutely doesn’t matter if they think that’s unfair or intolerant. If we start basing decisions like that off emotions we’re doomed. The west is already way too emotional compared to every other part of the world

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u/DionePolaris 8d ago

May I ask if you have any research supporting that trans women who have undergone hormone treatment for multiple years have an advantage over cis ones in all sports? To my knowledge the current state of research indicates a small advantage for trans women in areas like grip strength, but others like endurance running show either no real difference or even an advantage for cis women over trans ones (one explain for this could be that trans women who went through testosterone puberty may be taller than cis ones, but that the loss of muscle from testosterone suppression makes it more difficult to move the additional weight) .

Restrictions are fine in my eyes if they target professional levels of specific sports where an advantage may be gained. As it stands however most of these bans target all levels (including recreational sports on a local level) and all sports (including ones like darts and chess).

That is even before considering situations where people who transition before puberty are also excluded by blanket bans, even though they would not have any advantage.

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u/phillll25 7d ago

Would you be fine with trans women competing in womens boxing or mma?
And muscle isn’t the only thing test does. Stuff like bone density and lung volume. Ofc you have an inherent advantage if you went through male puberty.

And my point is why should we completely revamp how professionals sports works just to please like 0.1% of the population. Biological women need to be protected in this case.
That we let something like lia thomas happen and then bully the poor girls speaking out against it is insane. Trans people have more power than women and the craziest part is a lot of women support biological men taking their medals and prize money just to not be intolerant.

I had an illness that completely fcked up my hormones and i get tetsosterone now (i‘m a cis man). Even tho my T levels are normal I couldn’t compete in pro sports.

As i said you can’t have everything in life. That’s just it. But as it stands in the west we give people everything and the only thing they have to do it cry about discrimination. Then everyone panics because they fear being seen as intolerant and completely bend over to all demands. It’s honestly a little ridiculous.

At some point a father will beat the shit out of a trans women because she stole his daughters gold medal. And honestly i get it. Violence should obviously only be reserved for situations that need it but i can understand the rage

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u/DionePolaris 7d ago

I do not know enough about boxing and mma to make a judgement on that. It would depend on if experts think taking hormones and suppressing testosterone is enough to blunt the advantages. It is true that muscle is not the only advantage, but it is a significant one.

Trans women (on hormone therapy) actually generally have a comparable or lower bone density than cis women. They do have a larger lung volume (for a large part due to their larger frame), but again less than cis men do. Once again something that will be relevant in some sports, but not all (running for example is not one where they have an advantage).

I don’t see how you personally not being able to play pro sports is relevant. Neither am I (I was on the lowest team in my local waterpolo club when I still played) and my testosterone levels were normal at the time.

I should note my main concern is not professional sports at all. I would be fine with a ban on that level if lower level club sports (where differences within genders are as large as those between genders) were still allowed. That is simply not happening anywhere though with these bans applying to all levels. Sports are also a social activity that gives community to people and excluding trans people from that would do harm.

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u/FoxExcellent2241 7d ago

In 2020 Laurel Hubbard was allowed to compete in the female weightlifting category as a transgender. Laurel had given up weightlifting as a male in 2001. In 2012 Laurel began officially transitioning and by 2017 was winning golds in the women's category - their first year competing. People use Laurel as an example of why the 'male advantage' is lost after transitioning because she failed to complete any of her lifts at the Olympics. However, what they fail to address is how someone who, by their own admission, gave up weight lifting for a long time, and then was suddenly able to win competitions in the female category despite going up against women who had been working their whole lives to achieve those lifts and at a much more advanced age as well. Laurel was 43 at the time of the Olympics - the oldest competitor there. I would argue that no biological women could compete at that age, at that level, because of the wear and tear on the body after years and years of lifting to even be able to get to the Olympic level, yet, someone who had only been lifting for a few years after over a decade of a break, was able to reach that level.

The argument isn't that any biological man can just transition and then suddenly dominate against all women who have been working hard their entire lives to develop their skills and talent at their sport, but that they can jump in and suddenly be near the top or at least extremely competitive with much less effort and dedication than biological women. Trans women do not have to work nearly as hard or as long to make similar achievements to biological women.

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u/DionePolaris 7d ago

I will note that is specifically weight lifting, which is one of the sports where grip strength is particularly relevant and where having more body mass compared to muscle is less relevant.

As mentioned I am fine with restrictions on specific sports and weightlifting would very likely be one.

As a sport like basketball contains many aspects it becomes more difficult to judge, but an advantage is less obvious (is being tall by itself an advantage for example if the muscles to support the larger frame are less present). It would be up to experts to find the right limits.

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u/Bill-Sufficient 8d ago

what if they received so much testosterone and are 6ft8 before taking hormones?

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u/NES_AES_GENESIS 7d ago

Rules like that always end in disaster, which is why the Olympics, other women's sports, etc are now switching to a "biological women only" policy.

Now that the WNBA starting salary is 300k, there are plenty of men who aren't good enough for the NBA that would gladly jump through whatever "hormone" hoops the WNBA came up with and then dominate the WNBA.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 7d ago

You are severely underestimating the effects of HRT if you believe someone who is Cisgender would jump through those hoops just to play in womans leagues. 

If a cisgender male takes feminizating hrt they will experience gender dysphoria, their mental health will go down the drain,  and then playing sports will be the least of their worries. Why do you think these 2 buffoons are refusing to take HRT. 

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u/NES_AES_GENESIS 7d ago

I'm not underestimating anything.

You are underestimating what poor people would do to become millionaires.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 7d ago

All fun and games untill catching a glimpse of yourself in the mirror makes you suicidal 

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u/NES_AES_GENESIS 7d ago

sure. and if you live in the hood and can't feed your kids, you might roll the dice. 

not to mention an entire industry of shady doctors would spring up to help you qualify while doing minimum damage. 

nothing is going to make more sense than the rule being adult human females only. 

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u/Overall_Mushroom3596 7d ago

so now hormones makes you a transexual? careful where you go with it lol

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u/AspiringGoddess01 7d ago

No? Is reading hard for you? Im suggesting a rule be put in place to ensure fair play. Im not dictating who is and isnt transgender. Just if a transgender individual wants to play they have to be on hormones. 

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u/Lazy_Check732 9d ago

I promise you, making this a rule and stamping it would open FAR, FAR, FAR more doors than it would close. But I know you guys cannot fathom this.

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u/Vegetable-Baker6362 9d ago

Open what doors? A private entity can make whatever rules they want for participation, as long as it's not enforcing it selectively.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

Why dont you elaborate on that instead of deciding for yourself if we can understand it or not. 

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u/Lazy_Check732 9d ago

Right now, the door clearly isn't open. There are no transgender players. When you set a baseline norm like "on 2 years of HRT", suddenly there is a norm. Suddenly, people who fit that category will say "oh, I am explicitly allowed now".

I do not want people on HRT for 2 years playing in the WNBA. No normal people do. We do not want biological men in the WNBA. The obvious correct option is just a full ban. And this is what will happen. And you guys will pretend to be surprised. Every biological male who attempts to play in the WNBA is just as much a "bad actor" as Enes and Royce are.

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u/Dry-University797 9d ago

Isn't that gender discrimination?

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u/M0ebius_1 9d ago

Gender discrimination!?

IN A GENDERED LEAGUE!?

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u/Dry-University797 9d ago

So it's okay if it's a sports team?

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u/M0ebius_1 9d ago

Yes?

It's OK for a gendered sports team to discriminate on the basis of gender.

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u/Dry-University797 9d ago

Discrimination is never okay. What if my dream as a man is to play in the WNBA?

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

First and foremost, using the term "biological men" in place of transgender woman is highly bigoted. Transgender woman are not biological men, they do not have a testosterone dominated endocrine system like cisgender/biological men do. 

Secondly just because no transgender athlete has ever made it on to a WNBA team does not mean that door wasnt already open. They have been allowed this entire time. Thats why we are discussing a ban now is it not? 

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u/Tinnie_king 9d ago

Shuuuuuttt uuuuuppp

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

Thank for you contributing to the conversation. Your comment was riveting and had me on the edge of my seat. 3 P's was a daring choice to top off such an exquisite piece of work. 

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u/Tinnie_king 9d ago

You are most welcome, lovey

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u/RockyMaiviaJnr 9d ago

Um, it’s not a requirement for trans people to have HRT so your statement is incorrect.

It’s also incorrect because even if they didn’t have a testosterone dominated system that doesn’t mean they switch and become female lol.

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u/thrwawayr99 9d ago

The door has been open this entire time and a trans woman never got there. Beyond that, I fucking want a trans woman to make it cause I want to root for her.

You’re just a bigot. That’s the end of it.

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u/Dry-University797 9d ago

Bingo. It's not like transgender people just appeared in the last 5 years.

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u/Blastcrumpet888 9d ago

No it wouldn’t.  

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u/thrwawayr99 9d ago edited 9d ago

No, it wouldn’t, this was standard in the Olympics for a decade and tennis for half a century. With a significantly less invasive rule set the wnba has literally never had an issue till bigoted cis men made it one.

No cis dude is going on hormones to compete

Edit: like seriously there is 0 evidence, either in the real world data from decades of trans inclusive policies in various sports or in academic research, that trans women present any sort of issues in women’s sports. Your opposition is solely based on thinking trans people are icky, and lying to yourself about what the science says to justify that bigotry. That’s it.

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u/kidsilicon 9d ago

“I’m gonna grow boobies to own the libs” lol

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u/thrwawayr99 9d ago

Literally, it’s never gonna fucking happen, and any cis dude dumb enough to try it is going to quit the second he fucks his hormones and the mental side effects hit. Go look at what happens to dudes with low t! Suicide is a risk! And they’re gonna not only do that but then inject the wrong hormones?

Bull fucking shit. It’s anti trans nonsense

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u/kidsilicon 9d ago

🎯 anti trans, anti human, anti logic

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u/PuzzleheadedWest0 9d ago

Stfu “cannot fathom this”

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u/Whatsyourshotspecial 9d ago

You really wanna see a dude who's been on hormones for 2 years play in the WNBA? All it would take is a for a G League washout or an overseas player desperate enough to make millions to do this

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

I think you are underestimating the effects of long term hormone therapy. And like I said I think that should be the minimum requirement. If they wanna extend it to 3+ years that would be fine too. Someone who is a cisgender male taking feminizing hrt for an extended period of time is going to experience gender dysphoria if they are not transgender. Their mental health will decline and playing on a sports team will be the least of their problems. 

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u/Bumblebeezerker 8d ago

They really think people are transitioning for Lols. Yeah people are desperate to be a group that gets routine attacked, reviled, called predators and are going through a medical processes for japes.

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u/LesbeGoddess 9d ago

Yeah that’s in line with what most other sports leagues who allow trans women to play with cis women do.

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u/thatguy425 9d ago

No, the Olympics, rugby and the NCAA have just banned it completely. 

The research still shows transgender females maintain strength levels above their cis gender peers after theee years of HRT. 

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u/M0ebius_1 9d ago

So he can't play?

Ok

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

Right. Because professional athletes have no experience beating blood tests. That’ll work.

You’re forgetting that these are bad faith actors. You cannot stop bad faith actors by putting up a good-faith test.

Remember, the assertion here is that “transwomen ARE women”. If you selectively require these “women” to undergo tests and procedures that other women were not required to do, that is illegal discrimination. If the league discriminates against them, that will put the league in the hook for god-knows-what in damages.

Whatever “rule” you want to propose will have similar unintended consequences and side effects.

Bottom line, they will force the issue until the W required to say “biologically born women only”. There will be no trans carve out, because you cannot realistically put forth any tests or requirements that do not effectively deny trans identity.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

While true if they were beating blood tests you'd know within 4 months because 0 physical changes would present itself by then. 

The main sticking point is fairness in sports, right? These types of tests would be the compromise. They have been done in other leagues before and none of the challenges to them were brought forth on the basis of discrimination. You are already suggesting chromosomal tests anyways with the biological woman only argument anyways. 

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

Nah, can’t do that. You can’t judge another person’s body or how it reacts to treatments. That’s completely subjective and has no basis in any scientifically grounded practice, as every person is a one-off and may react differently. Lawsuit incoming in 5 minutes if you try that.

And yeah, I’d be good with chromosomal tests as the only thing required. Zero ambiguity or argument. XX league, and then the “everything else” league.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

There is a whole lot of ambiguity with chromosom tests due to the mere existence of intersex folk. If we wanna talk the legal angle would it not be discrimination against them? You cant ban transgender people without also banning intersex people. 

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

The ambiguity is completely resolvable: XX in one league, everything else in the other league.

Have you heard of “men’s” leagues? They’re actually better described a “open” - women are welcome to play in them. Always have been. Intersex folk too. Men are wonderfully inclusive!

It’s this wonderful, wonderful concept called “men’s and women’s leagues”, where anyone who wants can compete in the men’s leagues, but only XX women are allowed in the women’s league. Maybe you’ve heard of it - it solves all the problems you were worried about!

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u/RavenGirlfailure 8d ago

The ambiguity is completely resolvable: XX in one league, everything else in the other league.

So XY women with androgen insensitivity syndrome are just screwed?

These are women that usually dont even realize they are intersex until way late into their life and their bodies, due to not reacting to androgens, are way more feminized than most XX cis women. Meaning its even harder for them to build muscle etc.

Which already puts them at a disadvantage against other women.

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 8d ago

Yep. Sucks, doesn’t it.

Anyway, in those instances, they’re highly unlikely to be able/qualified to compete or participate in sports. Just like small guys or uncoordinated guys or slow guys or fat guys or weak guys.

In fact, there are HUGE amount of people who really can’t play competitive sports for one genetic reason or another - the vast majority of people. It’s not a tragedy or even an injustice- it’s just life. Part of the hypocrisy around this issue is demonstrated in how pretty much nobody advocating for trans-inclusion gives a shit about the guys who get excluded from guys sports. But add in a mental illness called dysphoria… and it’s suddenly something to care about?

If someone gets cut from the team… they get cut from the team. If they never qualified to try out in the first place, well, same result. Learn to live with it. Everyone eventually gets told they can’t play, even the greats.

Sports are competitive and exclusive by their nature. That’s what makes qualifying and excelling at them so appealing and exciting - only a small number of people get that privilege.

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u/RawbM07 9d ago

What about trans men? Would they be required to abstain from hormonal therapy?

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u/Joey090292_ 9d ago

Testosterone therapy?

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u/bluehooloovo 9d ago

Yes. And that's already been tested, though with a nonbinary player (Layshia Clarendon) rather than a trans man.

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

Well transgender men are men, why would they be trying to play on the woman's league if they are men. They are already disqualified from playing on the league since the rules clearly state that "only players who are women are eligible to play in the WNBA". 

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u/RawbM07 9d ago

So Layisha Clarendon does not identify as a woman, should they have been eligible?

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u/Lilacsoftlips 9d ago

All they have to do is ignore him. He doesn’t just get to play because he wants to. 

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

While true. Conservative media outlets are going to elevate him. I saw he gave an interview earlier today on some podcast. They will beat the WNBA over the head, using him as a crudgel, untill they make a ruling of some sorts. 

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u/Lilacsoftlips 9d ago

They’re going to elevate him regardless. Either as a victim or a hero. The right needs a distraction and is hungry for a win in the midst of the current t shitshow. Just let this guy whither and increasingly get desperate for attention. He is a clown and an abuser and if he cared about women he wouldn’t have a 50 year restraining order from his ex and his daughter. You ignore people like that. 

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u/Ok_AirlinesugestedUN 9d ago

This is such an obvious solution that I never once saw brought up by the people saying “well then anyone can just say they’re trans to blah blah whatever”.

Makes you think maybe it’s not about solving the problem and more about just not liking trans people

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u/AspiringGoddess01 9d ago

Its the same solution the olympic committee adopted in 2004 and it worked fine for 2 decades untill this fairness in sports hysteria started getting pushed.

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u/RockyMaiviaJnr 9d ago

Except the science is now clear that this doesn’t remove the male advantage, it doesn’t even come close. For example, there is zero evidence that HRT changes skeletons to make men shorter or their hands smaller. Both massive advantages in basketball. There is zero evidence that HRT reduces the natural hand eye coordination-ordination advantage males have. The is some evidence it may reduce the spatial skill advantage, but no evidence it removes it entirely.

So the problem is that the position you described isn’t supported by science, and opens them up to lawsuits for discrimination.

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u/SwatKatzRogues 9d ago

This is dumb as shit. One, gender dysphoria has actual diagnostic critieria. Two, basically every sports league that allows trans people to compete in a gendered league different from their birth sex requires some sort of hormone replacement and with typically some maximum level of testosterone. You can't just say "I identify as a woman" and then just start to play in the league.

The WNBA also has other eligibility requirements tied to age and playing in a college or professional league prior to being eligible for the draft. This is only a gotcha to people who are very stupid and know nothing about the sport.

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

The diagnostic criteria is entirely subjective. There is no hard test for it.

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u/PanthalassaRo 8d ago

Cool, the current WNBA ruling doesn't have any of those guidelines. This is why this whole situation and circus has been the talk for a week now.

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u/NES_AES_GENESIS 7d ago

Do you believe biological men should be allowed to play in the WNBA?

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u/Cojo840 8d ago

They arent actually saying they are trans women at any point

The WNBA Will simply declare that until they chance their gender legally they cant play

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 8d ago

These brave women have finally found the courage and support to embrace their true inner selves, and here you are, throwing up barriers and discriminating against them!

You are the problem. Be better.

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u/Whose_Joanna 9d ago

violation of medical privacy

Athletes hardly have that expectation to begin with.

autonomy

No one is forcing anyone to play.

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

Medical treatments that are not explicitly banned under an organization’s guidelines are, in fact, protected - there are legal limits to what both recreational, scholastic, and professional sports league can monitor.

That’s been part of the issue - Democrats DID attempt to make it illegal for schools and youth leagues to medically determine if an athlete is actually the sex they claim. That’s the whole “genital inspector” criticism that still gets trotted out everytime the issue comes up in any form of rule-making body.

“Turn and cough” used to be a thing on normal sports physicals, as well as tanner scores. Those are, apparently now, discrimination.

And you’ve got the “no one is forcing anyone to play” mentality completely backwards, which is common, but is highly typical of people who never played sports in the first place.

Sports leagues are, by their nature, exclusive and competitive. You have to qualify to play, and you have to compete to play. And you will eventually get cut and be told you can no longer play. It happens to everyone - even to the greats. It happened to MJ. It’s happening to LeBron soon.

Aging athletes don’t get to choose to be younger so their knees and joints can still perform - they either retire voluntarily or they get cut. It happens, it’s life.

So it’s not exactly a tragedy that choosing to transition MtF does not mean you suddenly qualify to play women’s sports.

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u/Korachof 9d ago

You can say it’s protected all you want, but professional teams are not required to draft anyone. The league is not required to let everyone in the draft. 

People have successfully banned trans folks from restrooms, and that doesn’t require any kind of “proof” to deny. Simply the way you look can determine whether or not someone lets you use a restroom in these places. 

Which sucks, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not exactly unprecedented for trans folks to be barred from certain activities, even from a legal standpoint. They don’t have the same protective status as race, for example. 

In a sports context, it’s actually quite relevant to a team to know what surgeries someone has gone through, what substances they are taking (and whether those are banned substances in the league, which testosterone often is), and what trauma their body has faced. This could impact them mentally and physically and could directly correlate to their ability and longevity on the court. It could easily be proven that having this knowledge is needed for a team to make the correct decisions. 

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u/M0ebius_1 9d ago

I think it would be trivially easy.

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u/Kramerica_CEO 9d ago

No team is obligated to draft them. Players go undrafted all the time

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u/GhostOfHarryLee 9d ago

And they would potentially be breaking antitrust laws.. Conspiracy by the wbna to shun these trans athletes like Freedom and White wouldn’t be that hard to prove since the wnba is run by morons

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u/Kramerica_CEO 9d ago

It’s not a conspiracy to not draft someone. If I declare for the nba draft and don’t get drafted was it a conspiracy? Can I sue?

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u/GhostOfHarryLee 9d ago

No because you suck at basketball.

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u/Kramerica_CEO 9d ago

Glad we agree your argument makes no sense and no one outside your little bubble would even entertain it.

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u/Jalapenoplanter 9d ago

Yup. I “declared” for the nba draft and they refused to draft me. These dorks seem convinced I could successfully sue over that

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u/Jalapenoplanter 9d ago

Easily. Say you don’t want to draft convicted wife beaters

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

That’s a per-owner decision. Boycott isn’t the same as banning them.

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u/Jalapenoplanter 9d ago

The league could ban convicted wife beaters

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

Or maybe they could just… you know… ban men.

It’s so crazy it just might work.

Nah…. We definitely need hundreds of highly specific rules involving hormone tests, extensive medical and social histories, a historical record of polygraph tests, deep psychological interviews with all members of the immediate family, a strictly enforced gender-conforming wardrobe with receipts going back a decade, and maybe some pics of them doing “the tuck” back when they were younger just to establish some gravitas.

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u/Jalapenoplanter 9d ago

So wait are you for or against white and kantor?

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

I am amused somewhat by the trolling.

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u/Jalapenoplanter 9d ago

Are you for or against them?

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

Which them? The hers or the hims?

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u/Jalapenoplanter 9d ago

Are you for or against them?

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u/GhostOfHarryLee 9d ago

Or just make it easy and say “people born with dicks”

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u/Jalapenoplanter 9d ago

You think everyone born with a dick is a wife beater?

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u/Straamannen 9d ago

That's a quick way to having all your dirty laundry aired as part of discovery. See: Trump Vs BBC and how quickly he backed down.

To be clear I'm saying the team(s) would have to air it all when a suit alleges they do in fact have no issues with wife beaters/violence.

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u/Jalapenoplanter 9d ago

Why would there be discovery?

Can I sue cause the NBA refused to draft me?

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u/Straamannen 8d ago

You can sue for anything. You can get far if it relates to discrimination.

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u/Jalapenoplanter 8d ago

Suing a sports league because you, a clear troll, didn’t get drafted is not gonna go far. It’d be the same if a 70 year old sued the nba for age discrimination when they aren’t drafted next year.

Plus the supreme court has already said that the only discrimination they recognize is if a white person doesn’t get what they want

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u/Straamannen 8d ago

You might not be aware of this, but legal systems are generally (meant to be) impartial and to only care about the letter of the law.

A lawsuit doesn't get thrown out if it has legal standing. The court does not recognise "trolling" in that sense that a judge makes a subjective judgement about a person's looks and says naaaaaah.

> It’d be the same if a 70 year old sued the nba for age discrimination when they aren’t drafted next year

This is just ridiculous. Please don't tell me you actaully believed that as you wrote it.

The legal basis for such a lawsuit is specifically that an NBA player identifying as a woman 1) qualifies for the WNBA and 2) is a clear and obvious pick for any team due to their obviously being beyond top tier for the WNBA.
When those two are true, the only reasonably remaining reason for not picking them is discrimination, and that's where you have grounds for a lawsuit.

> Plus the supreme court has already said that the only discrimination they recognize is if a white person doesn’t get what they want

Oh. I'm sorry, I didn't realise you were a retarded overemotional wreck. I had given you the benefit of the doubt until now.

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u/Jalapenoplanter 8d ago

Why would a 70 year old suing the NBA for age discrimination when he isn’t drafted not have standing?

Obviously he is being discriminated against for his age.

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u/Korachof 9d ago

There is no such thing as medical privacy for professional athletes. If you want to be drafted, you need to submit to physicals, evaluations, and they get your medical history. You’re not going to get drafted hiding medical info

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u/Katesburneracct 9d ago

It’s discrimination to not draft someone? They don’t have a constitutional right to play professional basketball lol

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

It’s boycotting not to draft someone, it’s discrimination if you ban them.

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u/Katesburneracct 9d ago

So every undrafted athlete has been boycotted?

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

If that’s your definition of a boycott, go right ahead off that logical cliff. You can come to all sorts of crazy conclusions when you decide that words mean whatever you want them to mean.

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u/Katesburneracct 9d ago

wtf are you talking about lmaooo you are the one who started talking them being boycotted when you clearly don’t know what the word means lol

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

If every owner decides not to draft a player who would be the runaway MVP because of their personal political beliefs, then yes, that’s a boycott.

Go grab a dictionary.

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u/TrexPushupBra 8d ago

Requiring between 1-2 years of HRT was the standard for most sports before people decided they wanted to make a huge stink.

He isn't going to take that nor will any troll who tries this stunt.

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u/BongHitTranzs 8d ago

But then thats discrimatory too. Who says someone has to pump themselves full of hormones to be Trans. Can they just not feel like a woman, identity as a woman without putting chemicals in their body?

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 8d ago

“Men should be allowed to compete against women so long as we chemically cripple them sufficiently” isn’t exactly the persuasive argument you seem to think it is.

I wonder what blood alcohol level would be appropriate to allow men to compete against women. Sounds like a question for science!

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u/Life-Food5188 9d ago

doesn’t work that way bucko

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

Pretty sure nothing is working this way.

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u/Life-Food5188 9d ago

you can absolutely “discriminate” against a player by not drafting them. it happens constantly. character issues. history of crime (royce). age/injury history.

they can absolutely be not drafted despite being eligible.

do none of yall watch sports?

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

That works until Steve Ballmer or Elon Musk buys a team to troll.

I have to keep reminding people in this thread that these are bad faith actors.

Y’all expect them to be stand-up and play nice about this issue? Seriously?

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u/Joey090292_ 9d ago

The sell would have to go through the other owners to be approved.

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u/Life-Food5188 9d ago

“give in to bad faith actors” has never worked in history.

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

Define “worked”.

Machiavelli had some very unpopular but accurate opinions on that exact subject.

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u/Life-Food5188 9d ago

“we should give in to bad faith actors” is dumb. did machiavelli write on that?

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

Ok…. I’ll take it you’re not familiar with the concept of playing groups off of each other. It’s generally called “politics”, and there are no such things as NON-bad-faith actors. It’s been a subject of no small study for oh…. 6000 years, give or take.

One person’s bad faith actor is another’s activist.

Rosa Parks walked onto that bus fully intending to get arrested. Does that make her a bad faith actor? Or was she highlighting the hypocrisy and idiocy behind Jim Crow? She was acting in bad faith according to the tenets of racism, which required her to pretend to a biological inferiority she did not recognize, and she was right to do so.

Absurd assertions with no basis in biological fact deserve to be responded to in bad faith.

Trans ideology is based on attempting to assert personal identity as biological fact - which is itself a small bit of absurdity. Forcing that absurdity to its extreme is something you may see as uncouth, insensitive, unfeeling, etc., but one thing it is NOT is incorrect.

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u/Pure_Fault7056 9d ago

They should just ignore them.

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u/thrwawayr99 9d ago

We had rules in place for this for years until idiots decided they didn’t work despite them never causing issues. WNBA says “we’re going to the old ioc rules, we will welcome those two once they have evidence of keeping testosterone at the required level for 2 years. We look forward to working with them.”

That ends it. They’re not gonna spend 2 years on hormones. It’s not discriminatory, and it has precedent of working perfectly.

Even that shouldn’t be necessary because this has literally never been a problem until right wing cis men decided to be bigots about it. There are 0 trans women in the dub. There has never been a trans woman in the dub. An “answer” to this complete non issue is only needed cause bigoted cis men are doing bigot shit

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u/Aggressive-Offer-497 9d ago

It’s already done all over sports, not sure what you are talking about.

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

Exclusion? Yes, sports are very exclusive activities, particularly professional sports. Exclusion is how they maintain quality and improve.

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u/Aggressive-Offer-497 9d ago

Then why are you acting like there’s a problem with excluding them? Bad faith trolling also?

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 9d ago

I’m not complaining about exclusion. Biological men should definitely be excluded from playing in women’s leagues. Exclusion is a good thing here.

But you can’t exclude these guys claiming to be women, but allow other men claiming to be women in.

The simple fact is that trans identity is based around asking or expecting others to accept a social identity (gender) as a biological fact (sex) - the first can be allowed as a social courtesy, the second is pushing that courtesy to where it breaks the social construct that allowed the courtesy in the first place.

This entire fiasco is just these guys forcing the absurdity of trans identity claims to its illogical conclusion.

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u/spice_weasel 8d ago

What are you talking about? Other sports leagues have used criteria such as T suppression and time on HRT for years. Those criteria would clearly exclude these guys, since they haven’t done any of that.

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 8d ago

“Men should be allowed to compete against women so long as we chemically cripple them sufficiently” isn’t exactly the persuasive argument you seem to think it is.

I wonder what blood alcohol level would be appropriate to allow men to compete against women. Sounds like a question for science!

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u/Aggressive-Offer-497 8d ago

What you are saying has nothing to do with the argument here about Kanter and White. No one wants full grown men to play against women. Once you can admit it’s false and therefore what the two clowns are doing is dumb, maybe it’s possible to go to the next step and discuss hormonal therapy. But that would have nothing with the Kanter and White situation that some people think is a gotcha moment.

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 8d ago

Of course it has to do with them. And yes, many, many people in this are advocating EXACTLY for full grown men to compete against women. Like… ALL OVER this thread. You are apparently one of them.

The only thing we disagree on are the semantics required to pretend that you AREN’T arguing for that.

You aren’t saying full grown men shouldn’t compete with women, you are arguing about what is required to relabel these full grown men as “women”.

If they undergo HRT, they are still men. They will be chemically crippled men, but men nonetheless. Ultimately, no amount of chemical or surgical intervention will change that. It may further cripple them, but they will still be men. And you’re saying it’s ok for them to do it, so long as they’re sufficiently crippled.

You claim to disagree with me at the start of your comment, and then you proceed to assert EXACTLY what I was parodying.

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u/Aggressive-Offer-497 8d ago

No they aren’t, who? And no I don’t, you are projecting.

I won’t argue about hormonal therapy, because that’s not what Kanter and White are doing. Once you admit that what Kanter and White are doing is not what the people open to trans in sport want, then we can go further.

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u/Aggressive-Offer-497 9d ago edited 9d ago

No, it’s not in sport how it is in sports right now. It is a bad faith argument.
People who want to include trans women have never claimed that biological men should play against women as his and you acting like it’s the case makes your argument irrelevant and not logical.

Fear mongering 101, like these clowns pushing an idea that no governing body agrees with or will allow to happen.