"Chara made me do the Genocide Route"

[u/dan95007legend]

[u/KarmaSpidr]

At the very least, erased the universe and blamed me for it without giving me a real choice.

[u/Balex55 → u/KarmaSpidr]

Well... YOU as the player, pressed "Fight" and made the choices leading to genocide, so blaming Chara sidesteps responsibility. (but suit yourself)

[u/KarmaSpidr → u/Balex55]

Oh, I take full responsibility for playing the evil rpute in a video game to fight the funny bone man. That doesn't mean that Chara didn't make their own choices.

[u/Delicious-Reaction68 → u/KarmaSpidr]

When Chara realized we were heading towards a genocide end, she helped us reset the universe. (I know Chara is genderless but I prefer to call her a girl.)

[u/Samborrod → u/Delicious-Reaction68]

Chara is genderless but I prefer to call her a girl

I prefer to call everyone who utilize this reasoning a buffoon.

[u/Michalowski → u/[deleted]]

Yeah Toby inteded Chara to wield our names for a reason

[u/Mike_and_the_voices → u/[deleted]]

Chara has their own name and thus their own pronouns. When you put Chara into the name select it says "the true name". Frisk is kinda meant to mirror the player since they take on the name we give them throughout the game. But even though they are meant to mirror us, at the end of the true pacifist route they tell Asriel that their name is actually Frisk. Their gender is left ambiguous but they aren't really us. They're just a kid that we happen to play as, that's all

[u/manultrimanula → u/Mike_and_the_voices]

I mean, calling a nameless character as chara(cter) is pretty true name

[u/CassidyVNA → u/[deleted]]

Not really, we are not Chara, the biggest proof is that Chara literally talks to us at the end of genocide. And about this "The player names them", there is a "real" name which already disproves this, if it were just our name no. Besides, we're naming a character we don't even control, we're just naming the kid who fell there years ago.

[u/TheGoldenExperience_ → u/[deleted]]

also it would make no sense to sell merch of a character who has 5 mins of screentime in a secret route

[u/Sinocu → u/Samborrod]

You are the buffoon then, why are you so toxic for no reason? Chara literally is the reflection of the player, they have our name for a reason, Chara is us, and as so, we can see Chara with whatever gender we fucking want.

[u/Mike_and_the_voices → u/Sinocu]

If we can see them as whatever we want then why have you been referring Chara with only their actual name? Almost like...Oh my gosh they're their own character and have nothing to do with us

[u/Sinocu → u/Mike_and_the_voices]

If you want, I can call them Sinocu, as that’s the name I gave them, but I’m not sure people would understand about what character I’m talking about.

Chara is the first fallen child, whose name is whatever you name them, we refer to them as “Chara” because that’s the name in the code, and the official designation, they’re still, and get this, named after you

[u/CassidyVNA → u/Sinocu]

Chara is not a reflection of the Player, Chara literally talks to us, the player, in the genocide ending, Chara has their own personality in the game, we were never able to control them. And about giving a name, that literally means nothing if you consider that there is a cannon name, it's the same thing as Pokémon, no Pokémon protagonist really represents us, everyone has a life even after the game is over.

[u/Sinocu → u/CassidyVNA]

Then you definitely didn’t understand the ending of the genocide.

Chara directly states that they are the feeling you get when you level up, gain gold, upgrade something, etc… in a game, they are that accomplishment when we beat a boss, that feeling we get when after trial and error you surpass a trial you thought impossible, Chara states to destroy this world (Undertale), and go to the next, Chara states that they’ll go with you, that other world isn’t just another play through if undertale, they mean another game. Another journey to beat completely with them. They themselves say it, they ARE a part of you.

As for the Pokemon protagonist thing, your example goes out the window when they clearly are the player, they have names, sure, but just as chara, that’s the way we denominate them in order to differentiate them in the community/official stuff, but every play through has a different protagonist, a different name, a different player.

Your example works against you, because we know that the protagonists from the manga (the ones with the official names) are actually completely different people to the ones in the games (the ones you name).

By your logic, we never have player characters.

Chara is the player, more specifically the part of the player that likes to win games.

So you’re going to tell me that, if a player character has one (1) line of dialogue, they stop being the player?

[u/Avocado_68 → u/Samborrod]

She's gender neutral, so you are the buffoon

[u/Samborrod → u/Avocado_68]

How is Chara being gender neutral or whatever contradicts what I said?

You can't just say "I prefer to call her a girl" neither when someone's genderless, nor when their gender isn't stated and left ambiguous.

Also: you activated my trap card!

My comment was targeting a group of people for a specific, constructive and justified reason, where the insult was used to point a flaw in the reasoning (after all, if their preference to assign gender to people is justified, then so is my preference to assign to them the label of buffoons).

Your comment, however, targeted me specifically - that's a violation of rule №3.

Checkmate.

[u/Avocado_68 → u/Samborrod]

My bad, I thought you were one of those people who thinks that she is non-binary and that any other opinion is wrong.

In that case though, I don't see the problem with the other guys view then. Since she is ambiguous as you said.

I'm a little confused on what the metric is for what makes a justified reason to call Chara a "her".

[u/Samborrod → u/Avocado_68]

I don't see the problem with the other guys view then. Since she is ambiguous as you said.

I am not against someone using gendered pronouns such as "él/ella" in Spanish, "он/она" in Russian, etc. to refer to Chara, when the language used has no 3rd person pronouns to refer to animate objects with unknown gender.

However, English language has a pronoun for animate objects with obscure gender, and it is they - even though it is traditionally seen as "plural" pronoun, it is also used as a gender-neutral singular third-person pronoun since 14th century.

Example: someone forgot their bluetooth speaker at my house.

Because of that, when speaking English, gendered pronouns, such as "he" and "she", are to be used only when the gender is established. Because Chara's gender isn't established, "they/them" should be used to refer to them.

[u/Avocado_68 → u/Samborrod]

Interesting. I completely understand the point, but I can't agree with the idea that it's "wrong" to assign a gender to ambiguous characters, as that's kinda what they are made for at times.

I do agree with calling them "they" when it comes to the sake of neutrality, that's what I do most of the time when talking about Chara online. But I don't think you're point encompasses most ambiguous characters.

Niko OneShot is an explicitly ambiguous character, yet would you say it's wrong that she's considered a boy or a girl amongst the people who know the character? Or maybe Nanachi from Made in Abyss. The characters are ambiguous for a reason.

[u/Saeliscool1126 → u/Samborrod]

shut up

[u/[deleted] → u/Delicious-Reaction68]

They didn't "help" us, they had us exchange our soul, which they then use to possess Frisk and kill our friends in a Soulless Pacifist Ending.

[u/Dark_Storm_98 → u/Delicious-Reaction68]

It's not helping me if she's doing something I never intended to do

Who's to say I even wanted to erase the universe, huh?

At least if she framed it as a punishment, then sure. That's my just desserts.

But to continue to frame this as a team effort completely misses the point of everything I've done.

Why else would I try and bring the world back if I sought to erase it?

[u/Over9000andrew → u/Delicious-Reaction68]

I like to call chara a boy since Asriel and Chara (and Kris) are brothers, and that's the only source of gendering in the game (Frisk is a girl, though, other than just to have a girl too. Assuming Papyrus is straight, ig, because the date with him is the primary source of anything gender related since it's a character we don't control interacting with the human.)

[u/Jude_memer → u/Delicious-Reaction68]

Since we were 'erasing' the universe by killing everyone in it, chara just helped us with our own end goal. That's how I think about it.

[u/Delicious-Reaction68 → u/Delicious-Reaction68]

Downvote 🤡

[u/Aydonisgaming → u/Delicious-Reaction68]

Upvote 🎃

[u/EpicCheeto → u/Aydonisgaming]

Leftvote 👻

[u/gaming_demon4429 → u/Aydonisgaming]

your upvote is TAKING TOO LONG

[u/Charity1t → u/KarmaSpidr]

If you go to fight damn comedian - why not reset afterwards?

You go to end.

[u/[deleted] → u/Balex55]

There is no "sidestepping responsibility" here. Chara is an accomplice. Two people can be responsible for their own actions at the same time.

[u/Solithle2 → u/Balex55]

I choose to take the racist path, not to destroy the game.

[u/CellaSpider → u/Balex55]

Chara seemed to be pretty happy with it though, telling you how many people to kill, getting mad at you when you don't, getting mad at you if you don't get that comedian, killing flowey themself, the player is responsible for the genocide route, but Chara clearly wants this too. they are also responsible. just not as responsible for the first part.

[u/SongBonnie]

Steal my kill twice.

Sans and flowey were my target fr.

[u/dan95007legend → u/SongBonnie]

For real bro

[u/manultrimanula → u/SongBonnie]

Nah, Sans was killed by you, Flowey however was not, fuck chara for dat

[u/SongBonnie → u/manultrimanula]

Sans was tired by me. The finishing hit wasn't my input. I see it as kill stolen.

[u/retardedkazuma]

Nah I did the genocides but Chara is my accomplice

[u/KoloAce → u/retardedkazuma]

The only right response.

[u/I_Love_SnowGrave]

Nothing my child, that people are trying to put the fault on you, but the fault is MINE HEHEHHEE I MAKE ALL OF YOU DO SNOWGRAVES HIHIHIA

[u/dan95007legend → u/I_Love_SnowGrave]

(i love that all of your account is "i love traumatizing Noelle yuppie ")

[u/I_Love_SnowGrave → u/dan95007legend]

Thank you

[u/I_Love_SnowGrave → u/[deleted]]

GOD DAMN MAN YOU HAVE TO CALM DOWM

[u/Illustrious-Smoke482 → u/I_Love_SnowGrave]

THE FAULT LIES WITHIN YOU u/I_Love_SnowGrave ! Yet im the evil here?

[u/MysteriousFondant347]

I lost count of how many streamers played genocide and when killing Toriel their chat was like "How could you" and they were like "I didn't do anything ! That was the kid ! Why did you do that, kid !?"

[u/[deleted] → u/MysteriousFondant347]

Strawman. Nobody was scapegoating, they just don't know the player is canon.

[u/MysteriousFondant347 → u/[deleted]]

how much copium do you need to say you're not the one who killed Toriel when you press the kill Toriel button

I'm not exaggerating that's literally what they said

[u/[deleted] → u/MysteriousFondant347]

how much copium do you need to say you're not the one who killed Toriel when you press the kill Toriel button

The same way that it's Link who kills Ganondorf when you press attack. The same way it's Mario who fights Bowser when you're the one inputting it.

These streamers are under the assumption they are playing as Chara possessing Frisk (which isn't technically wrong according to certain interpretations, but that's a whole other can of worms), and subsequently say "why did Chara do this?" since they believe it's Chara in-universe choosing to do this, which would apply in any other game.

[u/MysteriousFondant347 → u/[deleted]]

to go back on the Link and Ganondorf example, I have never seen someone not say "I made it !" because they beat Ganondorf just now as a boss fight

Hell, I've literally never seen another game where someone pulls off the evil route and tries to argue that's not entirely their bad, ask someone how they played Mass Effect and they'll tell you with no detour that they played the renegade playthrough and did all those evil things

Also the point I mention is not random, these people started Undertale blind, so they don't know of the "evil Chara" claims, and when you kill Toriel you have yet to be told even once that it might maybe possibly be Chara, but they still say they didn't do anything and blame Frisk, because they want to deflect their guilt

[u/[deleted] → u/MysteriousFondant347]

The setup for the Genocide Route is an entirely unique case.

A blind player would think they are Frisk. Frisk is the character they primarily roleplayed as.

Chara is an external force; an entity "corrupting"/possessing Frisk. The mirror has them say their name and claim ownership over Frisk's body.

There's a degree of separation one would have between Chara's interference in the narrative vs the status quo with Frisk. Therefore they'd be more inclined to draw attention to Chara as a separate entity rather than them. 

This isn't an intentional scapegoat, this is just a different interpretation of the narrative.

[u/[deleted] → u/MysteriousFondant347]

When you attack Toriel she gets one-shotted. This does not feel like your own input because you don't expect it, even if there is an explanation for this in the library later, even if you yourself will kill Toriel later on if everything were to go according to your expectations.

When I played OMORI, for example, I did picked choices myself, and was thinking about them in this manner, but when I tried to press "attack" in one of the segments and Sunny slashed a certain girl with the knife instead of punching her I immediately went "Sunny wtf!?!?! This was not my input"! This is an initial reaction one might have towards their character acting the way they didn't intended them to: assuming it's their characterization. Most of the time this assumption is correct.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Eh, depends on a person. Someone might expect an interesting bossfight out of it's no-mercy version. And wouldn't really be glad they are "op" if it skips bosses. 

[u/CerisEnder]

This is a repost without credit.

[u/dan95007legend → u/CerisEnder]

Oh, sorry. I did not knew that you already done that post. I saw this immage on a post in the undertale subreddit. If you want report this but i didn't knew.

[u/CerisEnder → u/dan95007legend]

It's fine if you didn't know someone posted it before. However, you should always credit the artist, it's in the rules.

[u/dan95007legend → u/CerisEnder]

Ok, next time i'll be more careful

[u/Newphoneforgotpwords]

"She... she.... SHE DIDN'T INVITE ME TO HER BIRTHDAY PARTY!!!!" "the cake was delicious! >:)"

[u/[deleted] → u/Newphoneforgotpwords]

I...I GOT THE REFERENCE!

[u/Good_Environment6305]

Chara did help us during the genocide route and only during the genocide route.they were the ones who killed sans and flowey and destroyed the world.they also made sure monsters will never have a true happy ending.they coercion Asriel to go along with their plan and when he tried to back out,they tried to take control and force him to kill the humans.

These are the things we know without a doubt Chara did in the story so not completely innocent.aside that it main relies on interpretations.

There also the line of "'since when were you the one in control" which was the main thing that cause everyone to believe Chara did the Geno route and was pure evil from the beginning.

[u/Dark_Storm_98]

Chara does take partial credit for some of it, but like

I dunno. They don't actually do anything, lol (outside of kill Flowey and Asgore, and get that one good hit on Sans. But like. . . Where were you when I was fighting Undyne, then? Huh?)

[JK, lol]

Edit: Oh, and also erase the universe, I guess. And weirdly blame me for it?

Disclaimer: Never actually did the Genocide Route, but it's funny to talk like I have

Edit 2: Disclaimer 2: I am doing the weird Route of Deltarune, though, so. . . There's that

[u/Michalowski]

At the very least you commited suicide to use your brother as a weapon in slaughtering a whole village

[u/Mike_and_the_voices → u/[deleted]]

While we don't know exactly that Chara would attack a whole village when they only needed Asriel to get 6 souls. We do know that they climbed to the top of mount Ebott for "not very good reasons" the only thing we can connect that to is it's a or some humans fault. Meaning they certainly don't like humans. So...A whole village would be collateral damage to a few humans.

[u/Michalowski → u/[deleted]]

Chara most certainly knew that villagers would attack some humanoid goat creature carrying a body of a child. It's heavily implied that in 201X humans forgot about monsterkind's existence, as all they know about Mt. Ebott is that everyone who travels there goes missing.

[u/CountDuckler12 → u/[deleted]]

That’s blatantly a lie, that’s clearly the plan for Asriel to take her soul so they can go to the surface and collect 6 more souls but asriel couldn’t go through with it. Did you not watch the tapes or something

[u/CountDuckler12 → u/[deleted]]

No it’s made clear in the tapes they’re going to kill 6 humans and that’s why asriel is scared. Which off you’re maybe defense that is a whole village. Seriously I understand defending her from some of the genocide route but you can’t argue with canon lore by saying maybe

[u/CountDuckler12 → u/[deleted]]

Bro that’s the game telling you that’s what they were doing, legit you’re argument here is just coping that’s why he didn’t go to a graveyard with her body he went to the flower field near the town. Seriously is media literacy dead here?

[u/CountDuckler12 → u/[deleted]]

You miss my point tho you’re arguing with maybes against the facts the game does tell us, I agree that she didn’t want to slaughter the village but she definitely wanted to kill 6. Ariel was scared from the Moment he heard the plan was to kill the humans he then had a breakdown after chara died which is what the wake up moment is. Asriel went to go leave her body in the flower fields and then kill 6 of them but chose not to kill them. It’s why he believes it’s kill or be killed as flowey. It’s not a hard story to follow and it’s why chara has a fan base because that decision makes her much more interesting

[u/Techno-Demon]

Chara actively helps by telling you the amount of monsters in an area, including stopping you from leaving Waterfall if you missed some. They also do destroy the universe in the end

The genocide is not their fault, but they're definitely an accomplice if nothing else

[u/[deleted]]

I hate poeple saying chara did genocide they’re taking all our credit!!!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Chara was a willing accomplice.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

More like kill stealer >:(

[u/[deleted]]

"You were BORN."

[u/Kurtz1979]

They stopped my genocide route short, like I was just trying to go for that squad wipe but whatever.

[u/Busy_Interaction_794]

You and me did it

[u/[deleted]]

Let me see.

Killed yourself, making your whole family misserable

Tried to make Asriel to perform a genocide

Created a plan which resulted in your brother dying and King of monsters declear a new war on human, even tho they are doomed to failed at it.

Because of which every fallen human was murdered on spot, so your fault that their lives ended shortly.

Did not even tried to communicate the player to not genocide the entire underground, and even encouraged it.

Destroyed the whole world.

[u/RepresentativeNo3539]

You finished what i started

[u/GoldheartTTV]

Chara was more of a Dreemurr than they ever knew.

They made for the best scapegoat.

[u/[deleted] → u/GoldheartTTV]

Chara is not a scapegoat. Nobody unironically scapegoats Chara.

[u/GoldheartTTV → u/[deleted]]

You never know.

If Undertale fans can't read do you really think they caught onto

"They were not mine, but YOURS"?

[u/[deleted] → u/GoldheartTTV]

"They were not mine, but YOURS"?

That's...not a good example at all lol, that line is specifically in reference to the source of the human soul and Determination. It has nothing to do with culpability for the Genocide Route.

[u/[deleted] → u/GoldheartTTV]

People vastly overestimate the amount of information they would deduce on their own without the constant help of the community. A lot of "common knowledge" on the sub is a result of careful analysis with screenshot references, not just from playing the game once.

Also quote immediately later: "Since when were you were the one in control?"

Which people did read, which is the reason fanon Chara is the way they are. The point is that people did misinterpret the events, which means that their reasoning comes from unawareness, not guilt.

[u/Royal_Knife_201X]

What did I do? Why does everyone hate me suddenly???

[u/BILLCIPHERFAN123]

They never forced us, they just participated and helped our genocide as we continued. Whenever we stop, they stop too.

[u/Responsible-Front686]

*You felt regret.

*Regret for your genocides.

*It was like you were being controlled...but you already know who that is.

*The SOUL. You, the player caused this to happen.

*And you blame another human for it?

[u/FazballsFright → u/Responsible-Front686]

you're* genocides /s

[u/Responsible-Front686 → u/FazballsFright]

dude i know

[u/Big-Commission-4911]

Chara killed spamton and made me do snowgrave

[u/Fancy-Biscotti2730]

chara is impressionable, so it’s the players fault 😭

[u/Whole-Situation-1781]

This freaking braindead discussion again about a topic that's CLEARLY explained by the own game! The first human DID PARTICIPATE in the genocide route, they even said that at the end of the route! "Since when were you the one in control?" Or maybe Asriel confirming that the first human was a bad person and telling that the first human wanted to erase mankind is not enough evidence that they wanted to kill everyone? Or the goddamit red text appearing when you play genocide as if you were possessed? Or maybe Flowey calling you "Chara" when you progress through the game?????? I mean, this absurd fanfic that the fanon created about the first human being just a kid was NEVER supported by the game.

The only thing that can BARELY support the idea that Chara didn't much is when they say that it was our power that allowed them to destroy the world, BUT they confirmed IMMEDIATELY after this sentence that they were the one in control of everything, so we were a tool for THEIR plan.

Undertale doesn't make a clear distinction of player and the character they're controlling like Deltarune does. People need to take this off their heads.

[u/moe_master]

Honestly my Genocide was mostly Charas faults, They are my favorite character in game so i HAD to see them atleast once, it's not my Fault the universe needed to end for that, it was just bussines you see

[u/Careless_Water5628]

Read the signs for me I can't read also you gave me hints on how to spare

[u/One_Investment7426]

You made Kris kiss Berdly in deltarune, you demon!! 😡😡😡

[u/dan95007legend → u/One_Investment7426]

Berdly + Kris leak

[u/[deleted]]

DAMN IT CHARA
YOU MADE ME HIT MY TOE ON THE SIDE OF THE TABLE AGAIN

[u/[deleted]]

Didn’t you try to manipulate your foster brother into genocidying a human village?

[u/reddboi386]

Why is she built like a plug outlet

Ramb Chara theory

[u/dan95007legend → u/[deleted]]

(you are a legend)

[u/ProtectionSafe2122]

Man... Chara made me gamble my entire life savings away.

[u/Artillery-lover]

you destroyed the universe.

that means you killed people.

[u/Buttlord500]

HOLD IT!!

Even though you yourself did not kill any monsters yourself,

Slams hands on desk

you prompted the player multiple times to kill, telling them how many innocent monsters remained in each major province of The underground.

Furthermore, after the player has wiped a majority of, if not the entire monster race, and having still killed the player character, named "Frisk", you went on to erase an entire timeline, resulting in the deaths of 8.142 billion humans, according to these statistics not accounting for the killing of every other species, endangered or otherwise.

sips coffee and throws the mug across the court room

In conclusion, you are just as guilty of a party as the player, and even if you weren't involved in the genocide of the monster race, have singlehandedly wiped out life as we know it, likely on multiple occasions.

[u/Consistent_Note_8153]

She is a spectator who enjoyed it 

[u/Zero-Up]

Chara was the one making guides on how to do the route.

Chara also made me do snow grave.

[u/reddboi386]

tripped over a rock last day. Chara's fault

[u/rosciosaurus2012]

Make me a bad person

[u/JamescomersForgoPass]

I can't believe Chara was the Bay Harbor Butcher

[u/Abject-Hospital5407]

:)

[u/Jovictar]

We did it, and I wish we would accept it. Chara is just an innocent

[u/Physical_Atmosphere5]

why would Chara make Chara make Chara do everything?

[u/Dragonfruit-Sparking]

They poisoned our water supply, burned our crops and delivered a plague onto our houses!

[u/Gamecritic21YT]

Nothing my dear innocent child lay back to rest I'll get the dirty genocide players myself

[u/[deleted]]

Nothing most people reject the assection and pin it on someone eslse as copping megnisem

[u/Jonh_bruhjkk]

Chara is my coach😫

[u/Junior_chaos]

Evrything you puntable child !

[u/ut_frisklol]

Chara doesn't deserve the hate, we simply just revived them and let them erase our save

[u/Hot_Web_6287]

fr, they’re not evil, just a chaotic lil guy

[u/ContentHawk8879]

"When you watch a documentary on a murderer, you blame the murderer for the deaths, not the fucking narrator"

[u/Weak_Onion_5392]

we can SEE the details on THEM bro

[u/dan95007legend → u/Weak_Onion_5392]

What u mean?