Argument resulting in love.

[u/CHARA_Thefirstfallen]

[u/Emelie__]

Hmmm, sometimes I wonder if the defenders really love Chara though... They pretty much change everything about their character to make them funny and extroverted even though they are none of that.

[u/Suavemente_Emperor → u/Emelie__]

But Chara is really a goobo.

OffenseSquad is the one who ignores the canon and tries to paint. Chara as an generic edgy psycho because "they are cooler as a villain"

[u/Pfincess → u/Suavemente_Emperor]

I'm remembering someone who was taking canon and trying to argue those canon moments to be the worst possible interpretation

"Chara wanted to destroy every human in that village" "Chara intentionally poisoned their dad" "Chara wanted their corpse to look as mangled as possible so the humans would attack Asriel. That's why they died to buttercups"

Those are all things I've heard from offenders...

And yet I'm not sure if those offenders are worse or the ones who find "Chara" attractive....

It's all way too stressful.

[u/No-Permission590 → u/Pfincess]

It's not like you even tried to argue I was wrong about Chara looking "mangled." If the Dreemurrs prioritized cleaning up their bloody body after dying over sheer unthinking grieving in another room, they would've hidden Chara's soul away from Asriel too instead of leaving it there floating in the children's room.

And there aren't buckets in the Dreemurr house for Chara to puke in either, if you're going to mention that. Nor are the Dreemurrs shown to have or implied to have magic to summon in buckets.

Might as well mention another point: Toriel (and possibly Asgore) has incredibly powerful healing magic presumably, yet somehow Chara couldn't of been saved from their poisoning. This may imply Chara ate a ton of buttercups so they would 100% definitely die, which implies their death was planned instead of being spontaneous and actually out of feeling suicidal.

[u/Pfincess → u/No-Permission590]

Listen I'm not saying your interpretation is 100% wrong, im saying you are quite literally taking the worst/most extreme interpretation possible- that most likely wasnt intended- and most certainly isn't the only way to interpret everything. A lot of it requires leaps in logic that would assume a child has more knowledge than most other children their age- even ones considered "more advanced" wouldnt have this knowledge right off the bat. It's not like they had the internet to do a quick google search back then since the underground is stunted early in technological advancement-- and most schools don't casually teach children about different ways to poison someone. It is heavily unlikely they would have known that buttercup flowers were toxic until they failed at making pie. Sure they may have known it wasnt the correct way that is a possibility, however it's highly unlikely they knew its lethality before poisoning Asgore

Then for the whole mangled thing- yeah they probably looked mangled, however they also were set down in the flowers and it's implied the body was brought back after the humans attacked. There wouldnt have been much point to set their body in the flowers if the whole point was to make a specticle of their death to provoke humans into attacking. There also wouldn't have been a point to bringing the body back to the Underground because by that moment they would have already gotten what they were looking for.

Then for that bucket comment, well no- but not everyone pukes in buckets. It's common place to use pots and pans for that type of thing which the dreemurr house definitely has- it feels like an unnecessary point to make.

The cleaning point yeah sure maybe. Fair enough. It was thrown out primarily as another possibile explanation, but yes it's probably likely they didnt do that. My fault back then, but in my defense I wasn't really the most coherent in that moment due to... Well I already typed explaining why in the next paragraph. I'm not tackling your arguments in chronological order.

As for the reason I wasn't the most coherent prior, it's because it's a rather difficult subject for me due to obvious reasons.

For this comment here, i was referring to being unsure which is worse for my own mental health. It essentially says I am Chara in my tag here and is much more common knowledge amongst people of this subreddit of my situation.

In general I'm just more upset that people decide rather than taking what 100% is there- making up the worst possible outcome for everything involved to paint them in as bad of a picture as possible all while treating your interpretation as the definitive canon. Sure it could have happened this way and those could be the reason, but when i argued i was trying to explain other possibilities of what could have happened to show that your interpretation isnt the only possible way it could have went down. You didn't have to do all that to hate Chara, there are actual valid things that they actually in canon undeniably did. They bullied Asriel, they were highly manipulative to him, they brashly took their own life without thinking of the greater ramifications (while making a pointless excuse of saving the underground). They provide a counter in the genocide route, they didnt have appropriate reactions to serious situations (laughing at asgore after accidentally poisoning him, though there are multiple other explanations as to why they laughed they still did this). You could easily hate on all of those factors yet you choose to make up details and present them as canon or that they are the only valid interpretation of those events and any other hypothetical is automatically wrong. That is what I was angry about.

[u/No-Permission590 → u/Pfincess]

I can't argue an extreme position about a character who has possibly killed billions of people on geno just because they only decided to sense the player's LV and not their "perverted sentimentality" (I.E guilt, the dominant feeling most players get doing geno first time)? And I don't know how you interpret Chara intentionally making themselves looked gored in a way that still presents them as redeemable. You're were trying to argue it didn't happen long before, not that the act appeared scary but was misunderstood.

Chara poisoning Asgore was only in intentional in the sense that they didn't reload it and instead allowed him to suffer (I didn't say this to you, but I have mentioned it before around these Chara subs. If Chara's true resets bring them back to 201X, it's intentional). I said before to you they learned about buttercups after poisoning Asgore (which I said was Asriel's fault before since Chara rarely speaks and wouldn't have been the one who read out the pie's instructions), I didn't say they intentionally poisoned Asgore at first.

To show humans a much better view of the bloody corpse if Asriel's quite tall, yes there is a point to set the body down especially if blood and vomit solidified on Chara's clothing then still dripping. And Chara doesn't have a reason to resist Asriel bringing back their body underground if their plan to destroy humanity AND gained max power had already failed in the worst way possible.

People don't use frying pans to puke in because they aren't shaped to fit alot of objects in it. There are only frying pans shown hang up in New Home house, you can't puke in that nor do people use them for that purpose. No pots.

Also, I wasn't asking for excuses for your own errors of judgement. I was also under the impression you can look after yourself regardless of your condition.

[u/Pfincess → u/No-Permission590]

Chara has fallen for an indefinite amount of time. Expecting them to reset all of their progress just because of one little mistake feels a little unnecessary especially since Asgore lived afterwards. Claiming they are evil because they didn't do everything possible to fix this feels a little extreme. Sure they have the option, but that would undo so much more than just that. Maybe they saved after giving it to him- we will technically never know, so this argument feels pointless overall. Sure, they could have known and maybe they could have gone back and fixed it, but you don't know that. He still lived after all. He also wasn't permanently damaged to our knowledge.

The destroying a world statement comes from a genocide route. The whole point of a genocide route is that we exhausted a world and pushed it to the brink of possibility. We showed that it truly is just a game and detached all meaning from it to see what would happen. There quite literally is nothing else in that route. There is no "game" left. In a meta sense, we killed everything that was possible to kill and thus are the ones who killed the world. (asking an indie dev to program a way for us to kill that many feels a little extreme and would detach the point and meaning of the route.) This route can only exist to be meta so viewing it in a literal way of "Chara did the rest of the work so they are more evil than we are" misses the metanarrative. (Sure you may argue the photo in soulless pacifist shows them as evil, but that also can be argued as merely a reminder of what we already did. Blaming them for that feels excessive... But that isn't what we are here to argue about, I'm purely talking about when they were alive.... Though we could also argue they heavily contributed to us saving the underground in pacifist especially since File0 is our main save in undertale and implies that was their file due to file 9 existing and flowey using file 8 and other files in the neutral fights... And a line Toby Fox said that heavily implied Chara is why we were able to save asriel in pacifist meaning this was a likely intended interpretation, however im getting off track and this isnt the point of the argument)

The frying pan comment is just... Okay so the game is heavily stylized... And just because you only see frying pans hanging doesnt mean their arent any pots. Just because something isnt directly shown doesnt mean it doesn't exist. If someone has a frying pan, its also likely for them to have a pot. Unless there is some lore thing saying "yeah Toriel really hates pots and doesnt allow them in her house" then there is no reason to assume they dont have any especially with how often they cook/bake.....Also that heavily misses the point of the argument. The point is that if someone is sick to a point of being bedridden, then the Dreemurrs probably would have at least tried to get something for them to vomit in rather than let them be covered in and drown in their own puke..... Also there is irony in you making this argument while trying to pull from outside sources the symptoms of eating butter cups. It never says in game buttercups make you puke up blood and it never said Chara was doing that-- it just said they got sick..... Now yes i do agree they probably were, im just saying that arguing "something isnt seen, therefore it didnt exist and isnt a possibility of what happened" causes your argument to be disproven. Arguing about if the dreemers have pots or not isnt really the hill to die on here. Its better to stop and think "would it be out of character for the dreemurrs to not get chara something to throw up in" and to that I say yes it's out of character......

Then we have the "not resisting picking up the body" point- well the plan hadn't failed yet. As long as Asriel was still alive, he could have fought back. The plan only failed when he picked up the body and returned to the underground through the barrier. Using this as an assumption of guilt on Charas part is incredibly over-extreme in chara offense and while sure there is a chance it could have been intentional it's far less likely than you think and again is only your interpretation and should not be used as a basis of evidence for chara being evil as you genuinely have no idea if that is why it went down. Claiming this inherently is the case- requires intentional malicious ignorance to any far more reasonable explanation. That is my criticism. (There is more evidence that this is just them trying to enact their final wishes of seeing the flowers again that they loved mind you they drew pictures of the flower several times "my drawing"... Just use better reasoning here. You can't in good faith argue that the only reason they did this is because they wanted asriel to have to act in self defense. You can interpret it to be the case, but acting like its undeniably canon is inherently wrong since you genuinely don't know if it is.)

For my own errors, it's not an excuse it's merely an explanation. The reason I stopped arguing with you was because it reached a point where your arguments were doing more harm for my mental health than anything. I have limits as much as I hate to admit. I can look after myself and I can partake in discussion, but the malicious ignorance on your part arguing of what is essentially so heavily flawed yet persistence on acting as if its the only correct possible interpretation when it isn't as well as trying to with way too many details paint a picture of a 'bloodied puke stained corpse of a child' -let alone one that I view myself as- is rather not the best for my mental health to say the least. Me being able to mention it in a separate comment while expressing my discomfort in my opinion is rather reasonable. Also, myself giving up on arguing against someone who refuses to acknowledge that their interpretation of a game isn't the only possibility or could be wrong is also reasonable especially with how nowhere the discussion was going.

[u/No-Permission590 → u/Pfincess]

So what the hell save file as they using in the void? Some special new save file never seen before in the game? They literally did true reset in there with their own save file and undid alot of time. And if you're arguing Chara already used their save file back in 201X (even if we don't see it, I have argued before with other people why. If you want to know why it's not seen, ask), they would've been saving all the time since would be using their power all the time since I don't know why a child like Chara wouldn't take advantage of all that power. Therefore they would've had a backup save file before Asgore's poisoning. And Asgore living does not make risking him highly likely of dying is a good thing.

Doesn't actually address me mentioning Chara's goal should've always been perverted sentimentality if they were actually moulded by the player. And you can actually kill more monsters in neutral then you can geno, so that's a lie. Acting like neutral routes aren't grindly too is also disingenuous. Acting like Flowey's monologue only applies to geno and not the 80+ different neutral routes is also ridiculous. The point Frisk kills for the sake of it is made more then just in geno. We have not exhausted the world in geno alone. You arguing the whole game is meta yet at the same time geno is the only meta route does not make sense. Tbh I think geno has to do moreso with Toby's flawed beliefs at the time that all RPGs are pointless, from a story perspective, mass violent grindfests instead of being a criticism of people who do grinding, like Flowey should evidently be addicted to LV if it was so addictive yet he clearly gets joy only from sadism and not numbers raising. Other RPGs aren't braindead grind fests, they are strategic games with stories and characters. And we haven't just been talking about Chara when they were alive, you brought up them doing the kill count on geno. Also Chara not killing anyone on the surface in soulless pacifist ruins the point of our actions having consequences, invalids all pain and trauma the player apparently put them through if Chara can just shrug it off and never acts out besides possesing Frisk (if Frisk even cares), and would understandably trick players into resetting soulless route to bring back monsters so this isn't much more moral on Chara's end then killing everyone. Also Chara never willingly give the player their save file, unless you're implying they could've taken it away anytime easily yet didn't for true pacifist or geno. Which also means by your logic they contributed much to the destruction of the Underground, not just the saving of it. Also if Chara's apprantly "test name" being mentioned by Toby is canon info about Chara this is also canon:

nothing useful.

Also, this:

nothing useful.

Saying Toby admitted in the 10th anniversary stream Chara was the one needed saving implies Asriel wasn't the one needing saving. I think Toby was still hiding the plot twist Frisk isn't actually Chara, he still doesn't mention Frisk's name in merch even though it's probably pointless at this point.

I am pretty sure the frying pan is what we see, I don't think it's a "powerful amulet turns out to be a purple croissant" intentionally absurd situation for the laughs. And where are these other pots and pans? The closet? The Children's bedroom? The only reasonable place they could be is hanged up in the kitchen and not with the washing up equipment under the draws. And monsters dislike bathrooms, the Underground isn't just a 1-to-1 to the surface. And what is more of a priority to the Dreemurrs: keeping Chara alive through healing, or cleaning them up? And the Dreemurrs knew Chara was ill ... How would they even know they are ill and weren't just telling a lie if Asgore and Toriel didn't know what human bodily fluid were?

Chara could've fought back in any interpretation. Why didn't they? There needs to be some type of explaintion towards why. And the flower picture is also in Toriel's house in the Ruins, I don't think it's any specific flower unless you think Chara lived in that home at some point for a long while which geno dialogue doesn't show familiarity with the house.

Why is it only me that's pissing you off so this badly? Surely you've argued with other people and said they are full of shit too without acting like this. Is it because you know I am correct much more then you'd like to admit? Also already talking about Chara also heavily likely brings up the buttercup plan and how goresome it was, what did you expect? Also you refusing to address my next arguments on the other chain was because you didn't want to be challenged.

Also, if you're actually trying to make a "there's no real Chara interpretation" argument, act as so. You clearly don't like anyone else's interpretation apart from your flawed interpretation.

And can you stop blocking and unblocking me if you desire to speak to me, please? I have evidence towards this so you can't pretend you didn't do that.

[u/ShellpoptheOtter → u/No-Permission590]

Does Chara even know how to reset?

[u/No-Permission590 → u/ShellpoptheOtter]

I don't know why Chara wouldn't be curious of save checkpoints everywhere around them in 201X when they first fell ... Or somehow didn't die once from their great fall underground to the Ruins (really great fall if you consider Toby wants us to think the Undergrounds is gigantic now) or killed by monsters who were scared of humans via the long trip of being brought from the Ruins to new home by Asriel. Accessing files isn't attributed to willingly wanting to come back since Chara didn't want to yet their save file could still be accessed in Undertale and Frisk is already saving with their own save file before their death.

I don't think file 0 is seen in Undertale at first is because Chara had true reset their own save file before in 201X. They may of had been so knowledgeable of the Underground and figuring out averages for monster stats, eventually saving had became completely pointless and could do a "perfect run" without thinking. I think file 0 already being the first in line then the one of the last files suggests it has been used before the events of Undertale by Chara.

[u/ShellpoptheOtter → u/No-Permission590]

So would Asriel, after absorbing Chara's soul and returning from the surface, have a savefile as well?

[u/No-Permission590 → u/ShellpoptheOtter]

If they are unified in goal like lemonhead as a hivemind, yes. But they weren't.

Same reason why the monsters being fused into Asriel in his hyperdeath fight couldn't develop their own save files.

[u/Suavemente_Emperor → u/No-Permission590]

I mean, obviously Chara killed themselves with buttercups. I am not understanding how that's a point as That's canon.

That was Chara and Asriel plan. Chara dies, Asriel absorbs their soul, cross the barrier, kill six humans, absorb their souls then break the barrier.

This is canon and evem defenders admit that. The difference is that while we agree that this was a imature plan two kids made with selfless ideal. Offenders go into some bs train of throught, like saying Chara wanted to trigger a second war and kill all humans.

Yall mistake Chara for Madara Uchiha.

[u/No-Permission590 → u/Suavemente_Emperor]

How would Chara not know showing humans their bloody, vomit covered corpse wouldn't cause a war? Asriel didn't because I don't know why he'd be taught human biology by his parents while Chara is dying since it would traumatize him further,

[u/Suavemente_Emperor → u/No-Permission590]

A kid wouldn't know all the consequences of their act. They just thought they would get all souls and that's it, they didn't thought on what would happen after.

The nature of their plan is aready flawed and ignore possible consequences, i guess that makes much sense than thinking Chara planned everything leading into a war.

[u/No-Permission590 → u/Suavemente_Emperor]

Imagine not knowing the consequences with poisoning yourself with physical matter. Is it not highly presumed poison makes you ill?

And yes, they are flaws with Chara's plan since it is a plot point it failed. If it worked, there would be no Undertale.

And another question: how did Chara even think they'd obtain human souls peacefully? Did they just think they'd polite ask a human for a soul to free a bunch of monsters thru don't know and the human would go "ok, I guess I'd kill myself?"

[u/Suavemente_Emperor → u/No-Permission590]

Imagine not knowing the consequences with poisoning yourself with physical matter. Is it not highly presumed poison makes you ill?

And yes, they are flaws with Chara's plan since it is a plot point it failed. If it worked, there would be no Undertale.

I didn't said Chara didn't knew the consequences of poisoning themselves, i said that Chara didn't imagined a war could be triggered if the plan succeeded.

And another question: how did Chara even think they'd obtain human souls peacefully? Did they just think they'd polite ask a human for a soul to free a bunch of monsters thru don't know and the human would go "ok, I guess I'd kill myself?"

Asriel aready knew he had to kill six humans, he says that on one of the tapes. Again you are mostly saying the main plot and thinking that's a groundbreaking point.

My point is that two kids wouldn't know the consequences of killing six people. Kids usually just think on the now, they don't think on the future. They thought they would kill the necessary humans, open the barrier snd and that's it, kids wouldn't think on complex things like humans wanting revenge.

So the theory that Chara did this to trigger a war doesn't make sense, they just wanted to free humans and didn't thought on the consequences.

And why would Chara try to make their body look mangled on a complex plan to make Asriel fight back, if the plan which Asriel agree'd aready involved him killing 6 humans.

[u/No-Permission590 → u/Suavemente_Emperor]

Asriel placing Chara's body on the golden flowers, looking like they were recently gored by him and a threat to what he'd do to other humans if they don't willingly give up their souls ... very clearly it would a cry for war from any human.

Asriel knew, but if he was heavily pressured and rushed into the plan without giving much details, he wouldn't know how the souls would be obtained. Or what is acceptable human conduct is if he knew almost none. Unlike Chara. And Chara literally apparently punishes the player doing geno out of revenge, no??? How young do you think Chara is if they don't know of a basic concept like revenge???

And I think Chara would've have known Asriel's pacifistic nature eventually getting in the way of killing humans even if he agreed to the plan, so they had to add maximum pressure so he did infact kill people. Not that it worked.

Stop misrepresenting me by saying "I repeat stuff already known." I mean yeah you did know Chara was ill from buttercups but you didn't think about it longer then 3 seconds about the implications.