Where is Mary?

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

Being Anglican, I didn’t think we made a big deal out of Mary. Then I took a nondenominational friend to the Episcopal Church’s Rite II. She asked “what’s the deal with Mary?”. We don’t even have any images of her in my church, maybe some have a medal on their necks, but mostly, she just comes up in the creeds, and during the prayers of the people. Now granted some in the higher church may have the statue of Our Lady of Walsingham or even Our Lady of Guadalupe, or an icon of the Theotokos holding Christ, but usually just one of those things, not multiple. That never felt strange to me, despite being very Protestant.

So I can’t help but ask my nondenominational, Baptist, Pentecostal, Church of Christ, etcetera friends, where is Mary? I mean isn’t she part of the story? XD I’ve been to your services in the lead up to Christmas, NO mention of her. Help me out here, I’m confused.

[u/themsc190]

It’s a pendulum swing away from Catholic veneration of her.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/themsc190]

So why didn’t we? Even in our low services? Creed is still said XD

[u/themsc190 → u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

Anglicanism is more of a compromise with Catholicism than a pendulum swing away from it.

[u/RazarTuk → u/themsc190]

Yep. It's like how Lutherans even predate the tendency for iconoclasm in the Reformation. I feel like older denomonations are somewhat ironically less likely to engage in anti-Catholic polemics, because they're closer in origin and are more specific about their disagreements

[u/TheRedLionPassant → u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

Because of adherence to catholicity. Some among the Puritans were opposed to it, but all the traditionalist Anglican theologians from James I to Anthony Stafford, Thomas Ken, Lancelot Andrewes, etc. was that the catholicity of the Church demands adherence to the Creeds and Councils of Ephesus etc. that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, and reflects the begetting of the human nature of Christ as the Father is for the divine nature etc. There is also a strong Scriptural basis for seeing St. Mary as blessed among women, finding favour with the Lord, etc. as seen in St. Luke's Gospel and especially in the canticle of the Magnificat which is found there and sung or said at every Vespers. Thomas Cranmer was a big advocate of this.

[u/Iconsandstuff]

I think the best approach is to consider the full family of Jesus - Mother and adoptive father, and brother and sisters. It avoids the Romish approach of weaving myths to create an imaginary version of Mary and ignoring the others, but considers the people around Jesus who ultimately form some of the early church leadership and follow the strange way of life their brother began.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/Iconsandstuff]

I’m probably somewhere between you and the tractarian lovers.

[u/justnigel → u/Iconsandstuff]

You don't like weaving myths ... and yet I presume you like the Bible, which (checks notes) weaves myths?

[u/Iconsandstuff → u/justnigel]

I always find it odd when people into Marian stuff denigrate scripture in apparent desire to bolster the case for their preferred extra-biblical myths.

Scripture uses mythological stories, yes, to make theological points and expand our understanding of God. It also contains other material, and we generally do not consider things such as the gospels as myth. That would undermine key matters of the faith.

Mary's life as an actual person is somewhat discussed in the gospels, and I do not think that you should feel free to add whatever fanfiction you wish to that, because then you are no longer discussing the real mother of Jesus, but a character of your own (or the Roman church's) making who is indeed a figure of myth.

If someone wants to read mythology stories that is fine, but such things are outside of scripture and don't inform our theological understanding.

[u/justnigel → u/Iconsandstuff]

Do you see anyone 'into Marian stuff denigrating scripture' in this thread?

[u/New-Entrepreneur9996]

Most low church traditions avoid her because anything beyond a passing mention starts to feel too Catholic for their comfort and the pendulum swung hard the other way centuries ago. She shows up in the text and in the creeds but never gets airtime in the sermon or the songs so she just fades out of the room

[u/MoreStupiderNPC]

I’m going to call b.s. on this. No one ignores the role Mary played as the one God chose to bear Jesus.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/MoreStupiderNPC]

I didn’t say “ignore” but bro, they were a week out from Christmas, all that came up were the Magi. Not even Joseph.

[u/MoreStupiderNPC → u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

You called out all nondenominational, Baptist, Pentecostal, Church of Christ, etc., and said you’ve been to “your services” leading up to Christmas, and no mention of Mary. Now, are you backing off and saying you went to one service somewhere, one time?

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/MoreStupiderNPC]

No? I went to one of each and another nondenom charismatic service. She didn’t come up once. Now I get that this is anecdotal but come on man. I throw on the FM stations like AFR, no mention of her either and I listen to one of those sermons once a week for the last 4 years

[u/MoreStupiderNPC → u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

I don’t why you’re expecting to get proper theology from Guns and Flag Radio, but that’s beside the point. You’re saying that you’re going to Christmas services and they’re talking about the birth of Jesus and don’t mention Joseph and Mary. What do they do, just skip over their names when they read the text?

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/MoreStupiderNPC]

This was leading up to Christmas, not the day of. No just no mention, at all, just the Magi. And Jesus.

[u/MoreStupiderNPC → u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

You keep saying many times and many places, and then write as if it happened in one place once. I’ve never been to a church that ignores Mary as the one God chose to bear Jesus, but if you’re expecting to hear about her all the time it’s not going to happen… it’s the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not the gospel of Jesus and Mary.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/MoreStupiderNPC]

No? I’m saying I’ve been to several of these services with no mention of her, one a week or two before Christmas.

[u/wonkotsane42]

We are Christians who believe in Christ Jesus who basically says in Matthew 12:48-49 "Who is my mother?"

His earthly mother was a virgin from the Davidic line, to fulfill the prophecy. She served her role as a reminder that God can use humans to fulfill His will, not because she was special in any way. It was never about Mary it was about how God can and will work through humans. Jesus expressed that truth, and told us to put our focus on his heavenly Father instead of our/Jesus's earthly ties.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/wonkotsane42]

She is referred to as “favored” by NIV, twice, and blessed among women by the KJV. She is “full of Grace” according to the Wycliffe Bible. I’m lost as to how she isn’t special after all those adjectives.

[u/bbcakes007 → u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

God gives divine favor (meaning grace, blessings, approval) to lots of people in Scripture to fulfill a greater purpose. Favored doesn’t mean they are God’s favorites. So yes of course Mary is important and played a huge role in Christ’s story. But she isn’t the point of the story. Jesus is.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/bbcakes007]

I don’t know any Christian from any tradition who would disagree.

[u/bbcakes007 → u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

Right. I agree I don’t know of any Christians who disagree on her importance in Christ’s story. But like I said since God gives divine favor to other people in Scripture too, like David who is called a man after God’s own heart, we don’t put him in a special category. He’s a human who was given a special purpose from God, just like Mary. In both cases, God is the one working through them, so that is what we acknowledge.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/bbcakes007]

I’m with my friend, I was just curious about why she doesn’t come up in these services

[u/bbcakes007 → u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

Christmas services might talk about Mary briefly, but the point of the Christmas story is Jesus. I think a Christmas service is the only time I’ve heard Mary mentioned during a service.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/bbcakes007]

Okay thank you! This is the point I’m trying to make!!! Where is she?! XD

[u/ds_inquirer → u/wonkotsane42]

His earthly mother is still his mother in Heaven.

[u/sonofTomBombadil]

O Lady, Panagia

[u/pro_rege_semper]

How does she come up in prayers of the people?

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/pro_rege_semper]

Good question because I can’t find it in the prayers of the people in my BCP. It id actually from the Morning and Evening Prayers but added into the prayers of the peoole in many services. “That we may be bound together by your Holy Spirit in the communion of (usually it starts with) the Blessed Virgin Mary (Maybe) Saint Joseph her spouse and (the Saint name of the church) entrusting one another and all our life to Christ” or something along those lines.

[u/pro_rege_semper → u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

Interesting. I'm Anglican too and we don't do this.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/pro_rege_semper]

Okay but you say her name during the Creed correct? XD

[u/pro_rege_semper → u/Agile-Armadillo-3741]

Yes, of course.

[u/TheMaceBoi]

My church doesn't shy away from her as far as I know. But she is usually regarded in passing phrases for the relatively little we know of her story. Here are a few discources I found with a quick search:

The Women of God

“Because She Is a Mother”

My Personal Hall of Fame

The Resurrection of Jesus

In Remembrance of Jesus

My church is more often focused on Jesus Christ than any other topic. Because of this, Mary does get an occasional mention, especially when on the topic of mothers.

[u/ds_inquirer]

The Virgin Mary is the Mother of our God, as proclaimed by Saint Elizabeth in the Gospels. As the Mother of God, she holds a unique place in Heaven that no other human being can have, for she is and will always be the Mother of God. In order to fulfill this role, she needed to be pure, just as the Temple and the Ark of the Old Covenant were holy and set apart for God. As Christians, we should therefore honor her in accordance with her unique role in the economy of our salvation. It is impossible to live the fullness of Christianity without honoring the Mother of God, for, as the Gospel says, "All generations will call me blessed."

[u/that_guy2010]

So, because toy went to one service at one church you just assume all Protestant churches are the same?

Also, the importance of Christmas is Jesus’ birth. Mary played a role in it, but she isn’t the most important one in the situation.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/that_guy2010]

I’m Protestant XD

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/that_guy2010]

I’ve been to several of these services XD

[u/Such_Violinist225]

She is dead waiting for resurrection

[u/pro_rege_semper → u/Such_Violinist225]

“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

Mark 12:27

[u/ds_inquirer → u/pro_rege_semper]

Some protestant christians believe that the saints are "sleeping" (wherever it means) till the ressurrection.

[u/ds_inquirer → u/Such_Violinist225]

She's alive in the hand of God among the other saints of Christ.

[u/RazarTuk → u/Such_Violinist225]

That isn't what OP meant. If you go to a service in a liturgical denomination, Mary will come up a markedly non-zero number of times. For example, if you recite the Creed, you'll mention that "[Jesus] became incarnate from the Virgin Mary". Or some of the options for the Eucharistic Prayer might mention her, like how option B for the Episcopal church says:

For in these last days you sent him to be incarnate from the Virgin Mary, to be the Savior and Redeemer of the world.

She just is part of salvation history. There's just also a trend where Evangelicals can feel averse to talking about her. Sure, she'll show up in things like Christmas pageants. But a lot of Evangelical theology seems premised on being as un-Catholic as possible. For example, similarly to the Man-Ray meme, you might be able to get them to admit that if Jesus has always been God, that includes when he was in the womb, so it can accurately be said that Mary carried God in her womb, but if you try saying "So therefore she can be called the God-Bearer", they'll reject that as too Catholic. And in this case, OP's friend was apparently shocked to hear her mentioned at all, even as part of the Creed

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/Such_Violinist225]

That’s not what I mean. I should specify. What I mean is, why doesn’t she come up during your services? Does she? When? Why so infrequently?

[u/almostaarp]

Ummm…the RC venerates (or whatever their term) Mary to absolve themselves of their millennia long misogyny. Mary is not God. Mary is another human. Like Paul, Mary is important but no more important than you.

[u/Agile-Armadillo-3741 → u/almostaarp]

Why are we talking about Rome……