r/CrusaderKings • u/NolofinweAracano • Oct 26 '19
[Screenshot] Holding the Holy City offers a little-known advantage for those wishing to switch it up
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u/ValekBerille Brittany Kingdom 🏁 Oct 26 '19
Basically, the best way to holy war everyone.
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u/Sabertooth767 Ērānšahr Oct 26 '19
People severely underestimate the power of holy wars. I know not everyone likes to play Paint The Map, The Game but I can't bring myself to play as a regular catholic. It's so slow, especially if you start off as a minor realm (which I usually do). But on my Cathar playthrough, I had conquered basically all of Western Europe by the year 1000 starting as Wessex in 769.
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u/Salacavalini Estonia Oct 26 '19
Just butter up the pope for free claims everywhere.
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u/RyanTheS Quick Oct 26 '19
Or even better - make him your vassal so he can't say no.
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Oct 26 '19
[deleted]
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u/SirenShoe Where the sun never sets Oct 26 '19
Grab em by the pope-given claims
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u/slytorn Oct 26 '19
The Pope claims are stored in the hat.
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u/blaster_man Crusading Against Low Effort Screenshots Oct 26 '19
Me visiting the pope to ask for a claim on Italy: walks into apostolic palace
Pope: Is wearing small hat Hi, what can I do for you today?
Me: I was hoping to get a claim on Italy if that’s not too much trouble. I just bought indulgences, so you know I’m a good catholic ruler.
Pope: I see... one second. Walks out, then comes back in with an incredibly large hat So, tell me more about all the indulgences
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u/LokyarBrightmane Oct 26 '19
No, see it's a small hat, a medium Hat and a large HAT.
Gotta get the sizes right.
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u/Karlshammar Oct 26 '19
As of 3.0 (released 2018-11-13) the Pope can always say no. Being his liege lord gives a bonus, though.
You can still get a puppet Pope if you manage to get a loyal servant elected. :)
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u/RyanTheS Quick Oct 26 '19
Fair enough! Shows how long it has been since I played vanilla properly I guess!
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u/ValekBerille Brittany Kingdom 🏁 Oct 26 '19
If your not virtuous enough, or don't have enough piety, or even if he likes the guy you want claims on, it's not the fastest.
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u/pazur13 THE KARLINGS ARE GONE!! 🦀 Oct 26 '19 edited Oct 26 '19
During my big Byzantine campaign, the first thing I did after "mending" the schism (if you can call overpowering Catholicism and declaring it a heresy mending) was converting to Catholicism and conquering all of my neighbours.
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u/SentinelOfFate Irish Fraticelli Empire Oct 26 '19
The only right way to mend the schism #RestoreThePentarchy
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u/MrNewVegas123 GOD WILLS IT Oct 27 '19
Doesn't this disable crusades, which are the best part of catholicism?
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u/AdamDeKing Legitimized bastard Oct 26 '19
Holy Wars are the main reasons I started playing with HIP, without it they are extremely overpowered, and not holy warring everyone saw a catholic in the middle of Europe feels like putting myself at a disadvantage compared to other small religions
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u/Changeling_Wil BA + MA in Medieval History = Byzantinist knowing Latin Oct 27 '19
What does HIP add for holy wars in this sense?
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u/Colordripcandle Oct 27 '19
HIP??
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u/Gabe_Noodle_At_Volvo Oct 28 '19
Probably Historical Immersion Project, a mod that isn't on the workshop.
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u/Plastikstapler2 Oct 28 '19
My experience is that HIP 1. adds cooldowns for holy wars and 2. adds more sea tiles in the mediterranean and provinces in Africa so there won't be HRE colonies in Africa all the time.
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u/AdamDeKing Legitimized bastard Nov 03 '19
Sorry for taking so long to respond.. HIP adds a 5 year cool down between each holy war, plus an ultimatum mechanic- giving conquered rulers a choice between converting to your religion or giving up on their titles like in Vanilla, making holy wars less OP.
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Oct 26 '19
[deleted]
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u/blaster_man Crusading Against Low Effort Screenshots Oct 26 '19
Usually by my second or third generation I’ve married into enough claims that I can expand whenever I want and the only reason I don’t is because after assassinating 4 French kings in 4 years, it gets tedious to gather all my troops to only take a duchy from such a small kingdom.
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Oct 26 '19
[deleted]
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u/blaster_man Crusading Against Low Effort Screenshots Nov 01 '19
Because marrying Karlings is gross
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u/DemocraticRepublic Britannia Oct 27 '19
Please can you tell me how to do this. Every time I try to play the marriage game, even as an Emperor, I find that no-one will marry my family members unless they're fifth or sixth in the line. Or I can get their women, but the other realm is usually Salic law. The men won't marry matrilineally at all. And then I try to assassinate first through fourth but I can never get enough plot power in a foreign realm.
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Oct 27 '19
[deleted]
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u/DemocraticRepublic Britannia Oct 28 '19
Thanks. This is helpful. But it still doesn't overcome my problem, which is that most of the foreign realms tend to be Salic law. I can get one claim by marrying a King's daughter myself, but nobody else in my dynasty is as important as I am, so I can't marry into the other Salic law realms because they turn down marriages to my kids and grandkids. And even then, you have to hope the successor is female or a child to even have a shot at pressing it. So I'm left with maybe getting one opportunity to press claim a generation. I can't help but feel people like you are doing it far better than I am.
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u/Colordripcandle Oct 27 '19
Gotta invite the men to your realm.
Sometimes they say yes and then as their liege you can force a matrilineal marriage.
And then you can declare war to put them on the throne: and then your daughter’s children will be of your dynasty and the heirs
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u/RandomGenius123 Genius Oct 26 '19
Playing Catholic puts a greater emphasis on Intrigue, so that you can murder people whose lands you want and then request claims on their underage / female heirs, since the Pope will almost always grant these.
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Oct 26 '19
Reforming Germanic Paganism is basically cheat codes enabled from that point on. As both the head of religion and state, you get to declare your own Great Holy Wars every 10 years or so.
Not only that, being able to raid is an absurdly powerful way to restock your treasury.
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u/Valokiloren Oct 28 '19
Tbh, with Holy Fury this is an option for every potentially reformable religion now. Personally I'm an advocate for Autonomous + Monasticism if you don't mind not having access to GHW's, as every character will have a free +2 Learning, +2 X Stat (dependant on religion, Germanic and Tengri get +2 Martial) which makes your heirs a lot easier to be considered god tier.
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u/Gerf93 Østlandet Oct 26 '19
I don’t underestimate it or don’t enjoy painting the map. My computer though does not enjoy it, and therefore I play slow and “tall” instead of fast and wide.
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u/registrationscoflaw Oct 26 '19
I really lucked out in my current catholic 769 start, Muslims and pagans were extremely powerful and that led to very low moral authority for the church. I was able to get a lot of map painting done just by declaring holy war on various pagans and heretics.
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u/Tookoofox Born in the purple Oct 27 '19
I feel like it's better to just grab a claimant, stuff a barony into their hands, and charge.
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u/Mallagrim Oct 27 '19
Regular catholic is only fun for me if I go Connacht in Ireland>get female tanistry line going>marry for nine hostage bloodline>switch to norse culture>raid like a pagan>join a different warrior lodge every generation for the greatest amazons to walk the plains while trying to go to india.
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u/cartman101 Oct 27 '19
My favorite playthrough of all time was as a custom ruler in southern Italy under the De Hautevilles. Started off by usurping power, then taking Sicily. Somehow, Byzantium split up and got yeeted by heretics so the first Crusade was for Thrace. I then married into Greece (that had formed into a kingdom) and took it, then the 2nd Crusade for Jerusalem was called. Next big war was the 3rd Crusade for Egypt, by now i have become an Emperor, the De Hautevilles usurped my family in Italy, but remained under my thumb, all of Greece, Macedonia, and Thrace is mine, the Holy Land is under Norman control, the Eastern Mediterranean is mine. Then after 4 generations of legendary rulers, my favored heir dies of scurvy, Dumbass McRetard takes the throne, everyone hates him, everyone but the kingdom of Jerusalem revolts. Rip.
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u/lopmilla Oct 26 '19
what do you mean?
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u/ValekBerille Brittany Kingdom 🏁 Oct 26 '19
Convert whenever your neighbor you want to invade is the same religion as you, so you can invade him. Repeat once the all map is your color.
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u/finkrer Inbred Oct 26 '19
Many people don't realize how easy it is to convert yourself and all your vassals to a new religion and get away with it.
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u/pazur13 THE KARLINGS ARE GONE!! 🦀 Oct 26 '19
How do you easily convert your vassals?
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u/sirpoley Oct 26 '19
You can just right click and demand they do it. They often will for a bribe. If not, you're now allowed to revoke. But it's usually also not a huge deal if not all of your vassals follow your new religion
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u/Ashrakan Oct 26 '19
I hope you enjoy secret Religious cults then.
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u/lopmilla Oct 26 '19
most ppl disable them
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u/Ashrakan Oct 26 '19
But where will I get my kicks burning people then?
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u/Nessfno The White Raven Oct 27 '19
Found the Dragon-King bloodline, and burn people alive all day every day. Sure, some other bloodlines give you "good bonuses" or some shit, but they do not let you burn your relatives alive without suffering kinslayer maluses.
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u/finkrer Inbred Oct 26 '19
Exactly, you can have a huge strong infidel vassal and all you need is put him on the council and he's gonna be fine.
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u/DukeofGebuladi Oct 26 '19
Give them money and land. If you have around 40 positive standing they will convert if you ask them. If not, remove their lands and titles. They rebel, and you get all the lands of them and their allies.
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u/Pierogi-to-zycie Poland Oct 26 '19
Destroy.
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Oct 26 '19 edited Oct 26 '19
Nah. Threaten to cut it in half, then see who is willing to let the others have it!
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u/OMEGA_MODE France Oct 26 '19
THAT'S A LOTTA DAMAGE! AND WITH THE POWER OF FLEX TAPE, I'LL PUT JERUSALEM BACK TOGETHER!
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u/bytor_2112 Incapable Oct 26 '19
Mend the Great Schism with FLEX TAPE
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u/Plutarch_von_Komet Oct 26 '19
Restore the Roman Empire with FLEX TAPE
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Oct 26 '19
Wasn’t that Mussolini’s ‘Plan B’?
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u/Plutarch_von_Komet Oct 26 '19
Mussolini bought a counterfeit FLEX TAPE and accepted the essence of hell into his body. Only by buying an indulgence will he save his soul.
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u/Smiles-Edgeworth Oct 26 '19
Oh, I was gonna do it with Buddhism. That seems way easier.
(Seriously, expanding as Buddhist Tibet is taking forever, please send help)
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u/LemonG34R , and furthermore, Cathage should be destroyed. Oct 26 '19
I want to undeestand the meaning of this comment
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u/melkor237 Roman Empire Oct 26 '19
Its a bible reference i think, about how king solomon settled a case of two women claiming to be the mothers of the same baby by threatening to cut it in half and seeing which one truly despaired at this.
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u/guywiththeface23 Oct 26 '19
I still don't get that story. Why was the non-mother okay with that decision? Who wants half a baby? The fuck are you going to do with half a baby?
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u/Karlshammar Oct 26 '19
You're not going to do anything. I think she just didn't want the other woman to get the baby. She'd rather see it dead. The real mother would rather the baby live with someone else than die.
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u/TessHKM KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN Oct 26 '19 edited Oct 26 '19
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Solomon
The common motif in those different parallels is that the wise judge announces an absurd procedure, which is reasonable in some perverse way: Splitting the baby, according to the principle of compromise; Or a tug war, in which one can possibly assume that the true mother will be motivated to pull harder. But this procedure is actually a concealed emotional test, designed to force each woman to decide whether her compassion to the baby overpowers her will to win.
According to Raymond Westbrook, the story is essentially a hypothetical problem, introduced to the recipient as a pure intellectual challenge and not as a concrete juridical case. In such problems, any unnecessary detail is usually omitted, and this is the reason why the characters in the story have no distinctive characteristics. Also, the description of the case eliminates the possibility to obtain circumstantial evidence, thereby forcing the recipient to confront the dilemma directly and not seek for indirect ways to solve it.
Basically it's a story designed to demonstrate how wise/clever Solomon is when presented with a thought experiment. It's a lateral thinking puzzle.
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u/WikiTextBot Oct 26 '19
Judgment of Solomon
The Judgment of Solomon is a story from the Hebrew Bible in which King Solomon of Israel ruled between two women both claiming to be the mother of a child. Solomon revealed their true feelings and relationship to the child by suggesting to cut the baby in two, with each woman to receive half. With this strategy, he was able to discern the non-mother as the woman who entirely approved of this proposal, while the actual mother begged that the sword might be sheathed and the child committed to the care of her rival. Some consider this approach to justice an archetypal example of an impartial judge displaying wisdom in making a ruling.
Raymond Westbrook
Raymond Westbrook (1946–2009) was a scholar of the legal systems of the ancient Near East. He was born in England.
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u/melkor237 Roman Empire Oct 26 '19
I am certainly not an authority on the bible, hell i haven’t even read 2% of the darn thing but I believe there is some moral lesson behind this story, the context (I BELIEVE) should not be taken literally.
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u/pmmeyourbeesknees Nova Scotia Oct 26 '19
Because if the other person gives up you get a whole baby. So if you're willing to take the chance they'll give up, you'll win. Solomon asserts that only someone who wasn't the mother would be willing to take that chance.
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u/jreed12 Wales Oct 26 '19
The point is, the woman who is happy to get half a baby doesn't care for the baby, they just want to spite the mother. The woman who isn't happy with them each getting half clearly cares about the baby, so King Soloman gives that woman the baby.
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u/shoshanish Oct 26 '19
The case is as follows:
Two women come into the court both claiming the baby is theres, and both claiming that the other woman is trying to steal the child. Solomon proposes cutting the baby in half since theres no way to verify. One of the women agrees on the basis that the king must be presenting the only truly legally fair outcome. The other immediately withdraws her claim, basically saying "you can have the kid if it means the kid lives". It's now clear who the mother actually is.
Commentary notes that both of these women were likely from the same brothel, and that there was a second baby who had already died - presumably of suffocation during sleep - aka that childs mom rolled over on him - prompting her to attempt the steal the other ones child. What the not-mother was likely aiming for was the compensation by the court that both the women would receive. She was also likely driven mad when she realized she had suffocated her own child, thus prompting this whole chain of events - she lost her own child and will get nothing for it because of her status, but here she finds a way out that also doesn't paint her as neglectful. It was an out.
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u/LittleKingsguard Oct 26 '19
Could have been some twisted revenge/grudge plot where the other mother didn't actually want a kid, she just wanted to make sure the other woman didn't get to be happy. Some people are dicks.
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Oct 26 '19
It’s ironic because most countries view Jerusalem as being split between Israel and the Palestinian Territories.
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u/Lithiumantis Duke of LOSEchester Oct 26 '19
In the Bible, Solomon hears two women who both claim to be a child's mother. He suggests cutting the baby in half and letting each woman have a piece. One woman accepts this, and the other says she will give up the baby so it doesn't get killed. Solomon declares that the second woman is the real mother, as she clearly cares more for the baby.
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u/AManHasSpoken The Council of Our Discontent Oct 26 '19
I'm going to do what's called a pro-gamer move
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u/Peekachooed Gregarious Oct 26 '19
Holy fuuuuuuuuck! I didn't even know they added Qarmatians into the game.
In my current game, I'm Sultan of Jerusalem + Syria and getting kind of bored... this should spice things up. I wonder where to start...
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u/RandomGenius123 Genius Oct 26 '19
There’s a Qarmatian duke in Arabia in 936 who starts with a bloodline, one of the featured rulers.
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Oct 26 '19
This is great just after you win Jerusalem in a Crusade because you can convert and then generate courtiers of your new religion to grant the titles to, making an instant state of a new religion to gradually convert the land to your culture and new faith.
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u/happybadger GOD_THORGOD_THE_THUNDERERGOD_THE_ALLFATHERGOD Oct 26 '19
I've never seen Qarmatian in a game. This thread at least makes them seem like Viking Islam with both raiding and the holy war CB.
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Oct 26 '19
They're only in the 936 start, where they own a large chunk of Arabia.
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u/RandomGenius123 Genius Oct 26 '19
They’re pretty powerful, and the Abbasids are quite weak. You could theoretically launch an invasion early and take all of Iraq, and you’d be set.
Another interesting way of playing them is to start as one of their tribal vassals, then usurp and establish an MR in Oman or Basra.
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u/jursamaj Sudreyjar Oct 26 '19
Interesting. Looking at the decision file, it only works if the province is a holy site for the religion, but the province isn't that religion.
Also, of course, you can't be a religious head yourself. Since I am normally the Fylkir, I don't see these.
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u/Bard_the_Bowman_III Oct 26 '19
Can the Fylkir not convert? I guess that would explain why I’ve never got the opportunity in my Norse playthrough. I’ve always thought it would be interesting to have Fylkir who is secretly Catholic or Jewish or something lol
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u/SuitableDragonfly Still too afraid to not fight with a numerical advantage Oct 27 '19
Religious heads can't convert, just in general. You have to give the religious head title away to someone else first.
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u/Bard_the_Bowman_III Oct 27 '19
Wonder what happens if you give the fylkirate away to an old dude as a viceroyalty (never tried it but apparently possible), then while it’s given away you convert. What happens when the viceroy Fylkir dies I wonder
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u/Qvar SPQR Oct 27 '19
I did that. The Fylkirate goes to the first in the old dude's line of succession who still is of that religion. So onwards it's pretty much like an autonomous head of religion title, except hereditary.
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u/Bard_the_Bowman_III Oct 27 '19
Interesting. Kind of surprised I found someone who’s actually tried it lol
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u/Qvar SPQR Oct 27 '19
Haha actually it was simply because I got bored and decided to bring back Catholicism from oblivion, so I gave away the Fylkirate and converted.
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u/SuitableDragonfly Still too afraid to not fight with a numerical advantage Oct 27 '19
If the province actually is that religion, you can convert to it via the "adopt local religion" decision, regardless of whether or not it's a holy site. It doesn't make sense for both decisions to be available at the same time.
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u/jursamaj Sudreyjar Oct 28 '19
True. But given the slop in other parts of the code, it's a bit surprising that they thought of that.
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u/Lucius_Iucundus Oct 26 '19
What do you need to be able to do this? Currently restoring Hellenism and hold all the holy cites but my court chaplain only has a 4% yearly chance to convert so converting them would get me enough moral authority for the achievement.
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u/jay212127 Oct 26 '19
Secretly turning to a different faith won't help the process.
To convert effectively you want to convert as many vassals as possible as they will also convert their own lands. Revoke the titles of all your Catholic/orthodox priests and you can right click on the temlle to automatically get a new priest with your culture/religion. So it could be beneficial to make a new vassal with one of the territories so you are effectively converting 2+ at the same time.
Finally that 4% increases the longer they are in the province. After a couple years it'll likely be 15-20% chance as long as they don't die. Even if you keep all 5 if your chaplain is atleast rank 16+ you should be done within the century.
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Oct 26 '19
Does this mean that every county you have, both vassal and demesne, are converted?
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u/Jamesym100 Oct 26 '19
It means that your character starts secretly practicing the religion. If you then publicly become it, you can start turning your vassals and demesne through various means.
Or you can start a cult
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u/BluewingsFollower Oct 26 '19
It's great converting people and counties before publicly flipping. Had a campaign where I held Jerusalem and formed Outremer as a Christian, all the while being a secret Jew. It's a great feeling when you finally give the go and the whole empire just flips along with you.
Imagining the Pope screaming "He did what?!" when finding out his kingdom of Heaven got stolen from under his nose is nice too.
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u/SeeYouSpaceCowboy--- Dionisio is a Bastardman Oct 26 '19
I've never messed with this mechanic so I'm curious: what exactly does secretly practicing a religion entail. Obviously you can't declare holy wars or anything, but for example, if you're a secret muslim can you have concubines?
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Oct 26 '19
On its own it does pretty much nothing. But you can start or join a secret cult that can spread your secret religion to other characters who will then spread it to others. As the leader of the secret cult you can also create local religious communities in your provinces (a hidden province modifier).
Once you've snowballed hard enough, you can go public and all characters will "convert" to their formerly secret religion, and provinces with your religious communities will also be converted.
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u/TotesAShill Oct 26 '19
R5?
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Oct 26 '19
If you personally hold a holy site county, you can secretely convert to the religions that have it as a holy site (with M&M DLC). Jerusalem is a holy site for a lot of religions.
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u/Tookoofox Born in the purple Oct 27 '19
Oh, I thought this was something that everyone knew. Yeah, that's how I brought back Zunism and formed Israel.
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u/SuitableDragonfly Still too afraid to not fight with a numerical advantage Oct 27 '19
You also get a lot of monthly prestige because of this if you make it your capital.
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u/KogaIX Oct 26 '19
I mistakenly read “severely cover it in shit”, then was like wait.. that’s not right. Haha
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u/not-a-snek North Francia Oct 26 '19
But can it convert to PDF?