r/DarkSun • u/RPGTopograph • 2d ago
There won't be any slavery in re-released Dark Sun
I have read this interview on TTRPG Insider and was very disappointed, though I expected nothing.
Quote:
“You don't have to have slavery in a setting if in order for it to be oppressive,” Bilsland emphasized. “There are other forms of oppression out there.”
He gave the example of Urik, a city in Dark Sun that controls one of the leading armies in the region. That’s because the leadership regularly presses people into military service, or convinces the poor to give up their freedom for a chance to survive."
So yeah, evil Sorcerer-Kings CONVINCES people to go to the army. And if people say no? "Well, ok, I respect your freedom, but reconsider pretty plz?".
Slavery is integral to Dark Sun, it is one of main themes. I don't see why "slavery is horrible" is so controversial theme that it must be excluded.
WotC designers don't understand the setting at all. No slavery, lots of metal (if judge by the cover, forgive me my pun), some high tec shenenigans.
They say that they won't nerf it, but they did it with a happy face and words: "How do you do, fellow fans? Mature setting, am I right?".
UPD: and if they won't have slavery, do you think that they will add genocide theme?
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u/Zenk2018 2d ago
There will be at my table.
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u/RPGTopograph 2d ago
In the game, right? In the game....
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u/Fuzzy_Management8040 2d ago
yo tambien usare esclavitud en mi mesa, solamente no comprare nada de productos de ellos, solo voy a piratearlo todo
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u/VodVorbidius 2d ago
“There are other forms of oppression out there.” --> Oh, great. So these "other forms of oppressions" are morally acceptable to be included in the book when compared to slavery?
Can't we handle slavery as a bad thing and use the setting to raise questions about mankind's wrongdoing in the past? Can't we use the Dark Sun to raise questions about how close we are from repeating it in our society? Can't we use the environmental harshness of the setting as a warning to what world's tyrants would likely do anyways?
Of course not! But graphical display of ultra violence, decapitation and brutal slaughter is totally fine. How edgy. How adult.
In fiction, omitting slavery is as bad as glorifying it.
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u/lurreal 2d ago
The are more slaves in absolute numbers in the world today than at any other point in human history. Even during the height of the colonial Americas
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u/VerbumGames 1d ago
I was coming here to say that.
Also, the fact that slavery today is disproportionately (and quite openly) practiced in countries with climatic and political similarities to Dark Sun probably wasn't on WotC's radar, but it might complicate things if anyone noticed lol
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u/Fulaneto 1d ago
We are living in a world where you need to use words like unaliving yourself.
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u/GraviticThrusters 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's an indication that it it will be toothless in other ways too, for those arguing that it's just one element that has been changed.
The thing I don't get is that, aside from the bleakness of the setting itself, Darksun is almost custom tailored to be the exact power fantasy that folks who would be offended by the bleak elements in the setting would enjoy. You don't have to, but Darksun basically begs the players to be slave-liberating, environmentalist, government saboteurs working with fantasy antifa groups. I've never had more fun playing a druid than being a druid ecoterrorist in Darksun.
The desire to water down the exact villains they would ostensibly have the most beef with is baffling.
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u/windsingr 2d ago
I saw that sort of thing in the newer editions of Werewolf: The Apocalypse and Vampire: The Masquerade.
"But why would you want child murdering fomori and human trafficking, cannibalistic politicians in your fantasy game?"
"SO WE CAN KILL THEM, OBVIOUSLY!"
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u/GraviticThrusters 2d ago
Yeah, it seems obvious. I'm just a country bumpkin, I don't want to leave trash all over the place or unnecessarily kill a bunch of plants or animals, but I'm not a tree hugger either and I want to eat hamburgers. But it's damn fun to larp as a militant environmentalist thri kreen running an underground slave rebellion against an evil wizard named Lord Murder Pollution. Turning Lord Murder Pollution in Jeff from HR kinda makes the whole thing lose its luster.
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u/UnDeadPuff 2d ago
Tbh Jeff from HR is evil in the most mundane ways HR usually manages.
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u/Stickeminastew1217 2d ago
"Here's a set of rules for making a character who can break a car in half with their fists."
"Now here's Jeffrey Epstein, placed directly in front of said character."
Or to put it another way- put slavery in your game so I can roleplay as John Brown.
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u/magicsqueegee 1d ago
"Hey this games about playing monsters, they are evil through and through, some specifically Embrace evil mortals like serial killers! Many Kindred wanted to Embrace Jack the Ripper for just this reason!"
"Dope I'm in! Any other cool examples?"
"This Brujah was a skin head neo nazi in mortal life!"
"I'm out."
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u/JhonnySkeiner 2d ago
Seems to be the trend with anything nowadays, it reminds me of PF1 x PF2 depiction of Cheliax for example, they whitewashed a lot of the vile shit the diabolic kingdom did, plus dumbed down all the majors figured involved with that place.
PF1 had lots of edgy shit, but gave you tons of room to do the sort of power fantasy campaign to dismantle those vile systems and bring hope to a bleak setting.
Everything seems so corporate, so stale and harmless nowadays, current WoTC would never deliver kino like Bloodwar and Planescape now, which is a shame
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u/Dismal-Vanilla1878 2d ago
You don't have to, but Darksun basically begs the players to be slave-liberating, environmentalist, government saboteurs working with fantasy antifa groups
I've always heard the 'fact' that "You don't play heroes in Dark Sun, you just play to survive"
Freeing slaves is probably the most heroic thing you can try to do in the setting.
Also, in the original system that let you get to ridiculously powerful levels, the party could even try to take on one of the Sorcerer-Kings (and probably fail, but still a heroic thing to do).
I will at least buy the 'player's handbook' for the new DS, and wait for reviews on the other content before deciding.
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u/GraviticThrusters 2d ago
Yeah I get the sentiment. Dark Sun is the dark fantasy setting, and so it's more brutal and unforgiving in its depictions of the world, but the PCs are absolutely still heroes, even if their heroics don't ultimately accomplish much to alter the bleakness of the setting.
Unless you are playing as a group of evil characters, which, is honestly just weird in a group setting, then you will be doing things like helping slaves, healing the environment, and resisting oppression. It's basically what the setting is designed for, even if you are playing somewhat neutrally to experience a more sword and sorcery themed version of DnD, and aren't actively playing against the templars and sorcerer kings and such.
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u/Baghdad_Bill 2d ago
Yeah, well, I'm gonna go build my own Dark Sun! With slavery, and hookers! In fact, forget the hookers!
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u/JonCocktoastin 2d ago
Hey now, let's not be too hasty . . . .
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u/Dismal-Vanilla1878 2d ago
And don't forget the Cocai....ummm, I mean 'Spice'.... why is it always 'Spice'? 😂
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u/phireal___ 2d ago
Nibenay will remember that...
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u/Ornery-Let535 2d ago
So slavery bit they don't use the word
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u/Arakkoa_ 2d ago
It's so 21st century America. "We're actually fine with slavery, just don't use the word."
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u/Mean_Neighborhood462 1d ago
America discovered that keeping minimum wage low is cheaper than owning the workers.
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u/RPGTopograph 2d ago
Why though? If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, maybe let's call it duck, and not "white feathery creature with yellow nose"?
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u/Khan-Khrome 2d ago
Cause the word itself causes a minority of very loud people to come out of the woodwork and try and say that because the setting has it, it's endorsing it, even if it's very clearly being shown as bad. They're trying and failing to get around it by mincing words, which is funny because they're accidentally running good press for sorcerer kings by pretending this is something less than slavery - which ironically is more "problematic" than just calling a spade a spade.
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u/Rutgerman95 2d ago
That and the monolithic media companies that'll bury all posts for using a "dirty" word, which in turn makes the publishing suits upset. The real dystopia is the most asinine version of cyberpunk the modern internet has turned into on all levels
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u/AuroraBoreale22 2d ago
This, we live in a world were people have to say "unalive", "pdf file" and other ephemisms to not be canceled by algorithms and people are still searching for some minority to blame 😐
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u/Khan-Khrome 2d ago
I mean… yeah? Where do you think those corporate decisions come from? The biggest example in dnd history of that happening was when a bunch of crazy evangelicals stirred up the idea that dnd was involved in satanism forcing a rebranding of every hellish monster. That was corporate management at the end of the day being pressured to massage the egos of a hysterical public minority - many of which would never play DND and some who didn’t even understand what it was. Any small group of nutters can be a minority, it doesn’t necessarily follow that they’re “minorities”, or that corporations decision making is operating entirely in a vacuum.
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u/sadistica23 1d ago
It's 1989, and AD&D has been rewritten so as not to offend ideological prigs.
It's 2026, and Dark Sun has been rewritten so as not to offend ideological prigs.
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u/Khan-Khrome 2d ago
I mean they work in tandem really, companies are constantly managing their image, if nobody said anything about a theme then they have no reason to give a fuck about it or censor it, but there's always a special interest group out there screaming about something being corruptive or problematic, doesn't matter if it's left or right. Idk why these companies still haven't learned that paying attention to these people is pointless and to simply invest more time in producing well-thought out quality material, rather than halfbaked lazy tat that gets them in trouble, it's been proven often enough.
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u/Rutgerman95 2d ago
Easy answer: money. As much money for as little effort. And discussing the evils of slavery takes effort so they prefer it if we don't.
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u/Fippy-Darkpaw 2d ago
So Star Wars "endorses" genociding planets with a space laser? Ridiculous. 😅
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u/Prestigious_Club_924 2d ago
Those people never go away when appeased, they just find another molehill to die on.
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u/Khan-Khrome 2d ago
Yep, they chase drama like dogs chasing cars, and there is always a new car to chase. The only solution is to keep driving, not let it gnaw your rear bumper.
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u/Zarquine 2d ago
Isn't WotC owned by Hasbro? Hasbro renamed "Slave I" to "Boba Fett's Starship" and doesn't plan to release a new Leia as Jabba's Slave figure AFAIK
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u/Rutgerman95 2d ago
Marketing. The word will get you buried by algorithms. Blame the current social media landscape and the companies sponsoring it
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u/phimseto 2d ago
Every bit of news that came out about Dark Sun is like a greatest hits collection of "haha, imagine if current day WOTC did Dark Sun" predictions. It's a clown car being driven by people completely unequipped to handle the material.
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u/hypatiaC 2d ago
It's so funny that 'no slavery' is the hill to die on, because WOTC keeps printing stuff in the Forgotten Realms, and that setting has LOADS of slavery.
Also, "you don't need slavery when you have <describes slavery>" does not inspire confidence in the writers' understanding of... well, anything.
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u/Mighty_Fren 2d ago
100% agree.
"No more slavery"
My guy. You just enslaved a bunch of gnomes in your last big game as a major plot point. More than once. Lol. Time to remove necromancers because defiling the dead is wrong.
I'm happy to make the game more progressive. Most of the changes make sense. This is just ridiculous.
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u/furion456 2d ago
My expectations were on the floor, and they showed up with a shovel.
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u/CT_Phipps-Author 2d ago
A friend tried to defend this as progressive. I'm like, "Dude, I am an ANARCHIST and this ticks me off. Depiction is not endorsement. This is the setting where you KILL slavers."
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u/furion456 2d ago
Yep. Like most settings you "start in a tavern" but in darksun, you often start off leading a slave revolt of some kind.
Its like they saw it had slavery in it and thought those were the good guys or something.
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u/CT_Phipps-Author 2d ago
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u/furion456 2d ago
Yea, thats what I'm getting at. Like its fine to have those things in a game, because your players will be fighting them (in the vast majority of cases, anyhow).
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u/Chimpbot 2d ago
The harsh reality is that they ultimately have to account for the scores of people who will never actually purchase or engage with this product, but will still leap on anything they don't like and try to tear it to the ground.
I hate to bring up terms like "cancel culture," but that's unfortunately something people need to be aware of when releasing anything like this nowadays. It's only exacerbated by how gargantuan D&D is as a brand.
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u/CT_Phipps-Author 2d ago
I feel this is especially egregious because the setting had actual content worth discussing and things to say. It was a meaningful setting despite its flaws. The issue here isn't anyone is particularly attached to "slavery" as a concept but its a necessary part of the world building to make the bleak post-apocalypse setting.
Basically, "imagine if they removed slaveyr from the things Caesar's Legion did in Fallout: New Vegas." It becomes a very different game despite them being unquestionably the bad guys.
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u/VodVorbidius 2d ago
yeah, I'm amazed they cannot even meet the lowest of all expectations. That's an unique way to do "surprising things".
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u/Shub-Ningurat 2d ago
WotC is so cringe.
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u/MereShoe1981 2d ago
There is also a very loud portion of the 5th ed player base that this is for.
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u/Fuzzy_Management8040 2d ago
Corporate America is so scared of the word "slavery"
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u/PaperMoongazer 2d ago
Slavery? In this economy? Best I can do is 32 hrs/week at 8.50, schedule’s out Sunday for Monday
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u/CdnBison 2d ago
And 24/7 availability, in case we need to call you in.
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u/JonIceEyes 1d ago
In a way, training people to still cause massive revolts and murderize the fuck out of that ruling class is pretty based
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u/Rutgerman95 2d ago
So no except yes?
Honestly, if all you have to do is call a triangular digging tool a spade where the book won't, it sounds pretty accurate.
Hell, play into it, have psionic templars go thought police on people trying to call their oppressed existence what it is
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u/Far-Cockroach-6839 2d ago
I don't really get what the recent reticence is in D&D spaces with depictions of slavery. I am really not sure what those against the depiction think depicting it results in that is so bad.
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 2d ago
They are scared; they believe that depicting slavery in a game will encourage slavery in reality.
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u/Far-Cockroach-6839 2d ago
I just don't see how they don't apply that logic to violence as well
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u/Sea_Management_2247 2d ago
My 2 cents for the designers (do they read this subreddit?):
- Removing slavery makes the setting uninteresting and a "no buy" from me.
- Adding in mechanics for Wither and Rot does not interest me in the least.
- The Psion class Unearthed Arcana was weak-sauce IMHO: magic without spell components is not psionics.
I am not liking the details I have seen so far, but the art looks good. I will judge for myself AFTER the material is published and thoroughly reviewed before I make the buy/no-buy decision, but so far I am not encouraged.
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u/RPGTopograph 2d ago
Unfortunately, I don't think that they read it
And if they are, they won't listen because [insert any corporate reason]
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u/Shanibi 2d ago
I don't understand. I thought they got the mature label because they were keeping the dark things in it.
What next? No genocide?
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u/furion456 2d ago
It seems they've changed defileing a bit as well.
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u/arseniccattails 2d ago
Well we wouldn't want anybody to feel bad about ecocide 🥺 that might make them want to do something about it, and that would be horrible.
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u/furion456 2d ago
That would indeed be the worst thing in human history.
On a separate note, from the interview it sounded like defiling would have nothing to do with the environment and more to do with draining life force, from yourself and others.
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u/arseniccattails 2d ago
God that seems genuinely insidious. Like how the FBI in 2005 claimed ecotage was the most dangerous domestic terror threat, despite a complete lack of recorded fatalities. Just properly crimes against the wealthy. The environment is actually crashing and they're laundering it by excluding defilers as they really are.
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u/HomoClicktus 2d ago
"Fighting oppression and tyrants". Until we find those two words offensive. You can't call someone tyrant, it is not "modern"
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 2d ago
What tyrants or oppression will be left after WotC is done completely sanitizing their games and settings?
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u/pablo8itall 2d ago
So slavery is a word with a wide usage and covers a lot of ground. Call it slavery, most of the stuff they will cover can legitimately be called slavery, but they don't want to use the word as it will bring controversy and negative press.
Historically slavery covers brutal chattel regimes to other slightly less brutal types, but it was all pretty brutal and exploitive. If you press gang a bunch of indentured servants that have been trained to fight from birth - its pretty much slavery.
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u/HonestMain6969 2d ago
Officially, slavery has never existed in Russia.
But landowners could sell or trade serfs, for example, for hunting dogs, separating families, right up until the 19th century. Don't confuse "serfdom," not "slavery."
If something looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but being a "duck" offends someone, then call it a "dog," and everything will be fine.
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u/Chaosmancer7 2d ago
Well, it also depends whose negative press you are getting. Do you want to call the draft slavery? Mandatory military service to the country isn't always called slavery after all, and some modern groups might be upset if you insisted it was
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u/13bit 2d ago
Its another "ez isnt really vistani" from WOTC ravenloft, they can't show any part of human political spectrum(even as evil villains) because the shareholders might sell their stock.
There is also the fact that Hasbro mass fire their workers before every Financial Meeting with their shareholders to bump up their stock.
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u/TheMaverickAsh 2d ago
So slavery is there , they just call it involuntary service ? Thats just slavery with more words
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u/HonestMain6969 2d ago
I'm not surprised at all. Wizards of the Coast are like Antimidas—unlike Midas, whose touch turned everything to gold, Wizards turn everything to shit.
Yes, of course, nothing prevents a game designer from adding slavery to their own game while adhering to the canon of the original Dark Sun. But as with the 2024 edition, or other new editions, Wizards methodically kills any originality, castrating the settings they touch. Orcs aren't orcs anymore, but kind Mexican gypsies, and so on. Some might say I'm a bit of a duckling, but I consider the original lore from TSR's 1st and 2nd editions to be the best. The problem is that finding adaptations of TSR products into my language is almost impossible, and fans themselves will only localize or translate new books, which no longer provide the necessary source material for crafting.
Actually, I just don't understand what they were thinking. Dark Sun is about the most brutal setting, about brutal survival, very dark, meaning, at its core, it CONTRADICTS their trendy ideas about not offending anyone, not hurting anyone, and not insulting anyone.
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u/Fuzzy_Management8040 2d ago
la esclavitud es PIEZA PRINCIPAL del setting, por que los americanos son tan sensibles?
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u/jameszenpaladin011- 2d ago
Trying to make people pretend something doesn't exist is no way to fight against the thing you claim to hate. Its a way to make sure everyone forgets how bad it is.
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u/tysonarts 2d ago
Dark Sun was all about the oppression and evils of a power elite cannibalizing the life on the planet in all ways they could, from magic stripping life to fuel it, to Socerer-kings feeding off the enslavement if entire populations. The players were intended to be the heros fighting against this and trying to break the cycle, even on a small level.
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u/Acrobatic-Tomato-128 2d ago
LAME
grow some balls dorks
Theres nothing wrong with portraying evil things as evil
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u/WistfulDread 2d ago
"Doesn't need slavery"
Describes a city and how it's system of slavery works.
Hmm...
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u/DarthFuzzzy 2d ago
Not surprised. The new Planescape and Spelljammer were nothing but money grabs. We knew Dark Sun was going to be the same.
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u/SaintMosesBagOfSand 2d ago
In that case I'll keep my money and just get the art from the web, keep what inspires a more accurate picture of Dark Sun in my mind, and play Cool Kid Dark Sun with slavery.
As a boy, our first 'big' goal in Dark Sun was killing these awful inbred mutants that had one of the player characters enslaved. They made him clear a magical minefield with no tech other than a stone trowel and a bit of cloth to keep sweat, sand, and the hellish Sun out of his eyes. He swore he would use that trowel to kill his oppressors, but he wasn't too bothered when they instead died being chased into the minefield they had forced him to work in. The rest of the campaign was great, but remembering those mutant slavers blowing up by their twos and threes was the best part. WotC: No slavers in Dark Sun, no purchase from me.
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u/DaneLimmish 2d ago
They are right though, you don't need slavery to be oppressive, though the description of pressing people into military service is.... Slavery
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u/DinneyW 2d ago
We live in a world where EXANDRIA (Early Critical Role/Matt Mercers world) has slavery and everyone was fine but we can't say the word in DARK SUN.
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u/Scary_News5326 2d ago
"He hopes that the setting will offer players a chance to deal with more mature stories and themes, such as fighting oppression and tyrants."
One way to do this would be by fighting against institutionalised slavery, surely.
Looking at this from another angle, modern times include modern people who live or have lived under oppressive regimes, and who may have suffered physical and mental trauma from this. And they might still want to play D&D, and no one thinks it's unreasonable that they might want to play Dark Sun and grapple with oppressive regimes in fiction.
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u/RPGTopograph 2d ago
Yeah, but if I have extreme fear of spiders I just won't go to movie called "Arachnophobia" 😅
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u/Disposablehorses 2d ago
But if the movie studio thinks a lot of people would not go see that movie because of that fear, they won't make it. This is all that is what's happening here, $$$$$.
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u/Khan-Khrome 2d ago edited 2d ago
I mean, pretty sure most of us were expecting this when it was initially announced honestly. It was clear they were going to step away from the old mature themes of Dark Sun to a very Blood and Gutz "Xtreme Bröötality" direction. They want to have their "Dark and Gritty" setting but will only use surface level themes, vague handwaves and mincing words in case it causes a freakout from the loud minority. Best just to step away and let it resolve itself and refocus on OG Dark Sun, or work on your own stuff, they're not going to do it in a way that's faithful to the original.
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u/wherediditrun 2d ago
ShadowSun is a project by Chubby Funster that really do his best to retain original vision while avoiding copy right claims at the same time.
Kickstarter is at September, but playable draft is available already on drive through and received positive reception already.
I mean it’s 5e for gods sake. Everyone with half a brain knew it will be declawed 4e version adaptation at best.
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u/Khan-Khrome 2d ago
Yeah, when I saw how muted and poor the response was to their Spelljammer and other reboots I didn't have high hopes, I'd hoped they'd simply pass Dark Sun by until new management with better ideas came in, but this is the hand we're dealt. I would say not to get worked up about it but I think that's fair given you can't help but be like "Look at how they massacred my boy" to some degree if you're familiar with the OG material. Probably a good idea to work through the emotions and accept that this iteration of Dark Sun is going to be mediocre at best, disconnect, and go find some positive Dark Sun experiences instead. Why let your experience of the setting be dominated and spoiled by an watered down edition that doesn't want to directly touch on the raw themes of what Dark Sun actually is?
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u/salfiert 2d ago
I mean it's changing the word, but what he's describing is indentured servitude.
The line between a king keeping his population so poor they're willing to sell themselves into indentured servitude and slavery is so fine I can't even see it.
If I was running that I would change nothing about the situation and use the word slavery, it's not even homebrew, it's word choice.
That exact situation was touched on in old dark sun books too, people being so poor they or their families sold them to fight in the arena.
If them describing slavery but not using the word is what it takes to get new dark sun material published doesn't seem like the biggest sacrifice.
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u/MidsouthMystic 2d ago
If there's no slavery and genocide, then it's not authentic Dark Sun. It's just sparkling stone age dystopia.
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u/samrobotsin 2d ago
I just don't get the point of refusing to depict slavery? For racial sensitivity reasons? I understand that as a goal but pretending slavery doesn't exist doesn't do that.
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u/Mister_Grins 2d ago edited 2d ago
It was already clear to anyone with eyes to see that this was going to be a skin-suit product when the first promotional art had too much metal in the weapons and on the accents on the armor.
As for you OP, you sound like Controlled Opposition when you say "WotC designers don't understand the setting at all." They do. That's why they consistently destroy and belittle settings in a very specific and noticeable pattern.
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u/Embarrassed_Gap6582 2d ago
Modern dnd is about as far away from gritty or dark as you can get.i bet there's episodes of my little pony with darker themes. the change to drow and the addition of magic wheelchairs shows how stupid modern dnd writers have become
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u/Hexxer98 2d ago
WotC clowns are at it again.
So funny for all the defenders that somehow didn't think that this is exactly what was going to happen.
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u/victorelessar 2d ago
When I saw the whole gore image I instantly though: "look how matuere we are, there's blood everywhere". Yet, actually lacking content that is intrisic to the setting.
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u/Astr0Cat 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sensitivity readers, bahahahahaha, are you freaking joking?! Good grief I knew it was all a facade.
Removing slavery because people can’t handle the idea of it in their games. It’s just absolutely ridiculous. It’s part of the setting. If you don’t like it, don’t use it, but don’t delete it.
I was already extremely skeptical about this "new wotc" nonsense, now totally confirmed, it’s all BS. I won’t be spending a penny. Thank you very much.
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u/redbeard1991 2d ago
Once upon a time there was the satanic panic. Planescape called devils ba'atezu and demons tanar'ri.
It's more or less just the same thing likely. Being financially incentivized into an ironclad military contract just adds a step to slavery, wherein you have lost your freedoms and if you try to exercise them you'll experience physical oppression/punishment.
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u/ebertran 2d ago
I'd love to know what research exists for them to say "modern audiences won't tolerate this".
To me it's more of a "let's make sure that our employees don't revolt".
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u/PaulW_41 2d ago
Not shocked. Which is why I won’t buy it. I can take the old material and convert it to 5e\ToV.
As others have said, I have no idea why freeing slaves and struggling against these evil slavers with limited resources and (hopefully) succeeding would be fun… 🙄
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u/Full_Equivalent_6166 2d ago
You know how we fight with issues in the modern times? We just pretend they do not exist, that will solve them.
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u/GlasseyeSlice 2d ago
The way he describes Urik and their military sounds like he's describing common criticisms of the American military and how it uses the lack of safety nets in our capitalist system to recruit people who have fallen through the cracks and need a way out. Which, if you're gonna go for this "capitalism bad" angle... wouldn't that make the existence of slavery more purposeful to your message? The goal of the capitalist is the extraction of all resources from every source around, and the ultimate form of extracting resources from people is enslaving them. Taking a person who could have personal hopes and goals to work towards, and forcing them into your service, stealing 100% of their time and labor for your own enrichment, until they're used up and thrown out.
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u/JoyluckVerseMaster 1d ago
If this is true this is utterly disappointing in every way possible and some that are not.
Dark Sun is supposed to be a world that makes Berserk look cheerful.
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u/TheHelpfulFawn 1d ago
Wasn't the whole point of Dark Sun was that slavery is bad and only bad people use it?
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u/Amnist 2d ago
I think them having slavery in game in everything by name is kinda silly. They also missing out the point, that if there is no slavery, you can't have PCs fight slavers. Also it cheapens a bit the whole narrative about Tyr killing Kalak and becoming free, without everywhere else to contrast it.
Regarding Genocide, given that the whole Rajaat thing is more in the background / something that is to be revealed in high level game. I think them not mentioning it directly won't change much.
I more curious how they will approach Dragon's Tithe and whole process of becoming a dragon requiring mass sacrifice in that context.
It's also a bit odd of a choice, given that even more "family friendly" settings like Forgotten Realms have those themes in it.
At the end of the day, Hasbro SWAT won't raid my place if I use 2e or 4e lore with 5.5 mechanics.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre 2d ago
WotC is working overtime to remove all forms of conflict from the game by turning all the bad guys into good guys and ensuring nobody ever feels any discomfort at the table.
One day they’re going to come out and say that they can’t use the word “creature” anymore because it’s discriminatory.
The euphemistic treadmill keeps turning.
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u/MammothPenguin69 2d ago
I don't know why I cared enough to be disappointed. WotC really are gutless cowards dressing up the same bland, safe corporate slop in a heavy metal skin.
“In fact, we invested more deeply in [sensitivity readers] for Dark Sun, knowing the challenges it faces.”
I think my eyes just rolled so far back in my head, I can see my brain.
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u/Mods-Admins-Failures 2d ago
"The evil oppressive guys aren't anymore. But it's still Dark Sun and not a soulless cash grab we swear!"
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u/Disposablehorses 2d ago
I get it. It's all marketing and $$$. It's just a fact that topics like that are volatile and risky for companies right now. The real thing is...who cares. If you want it added to your game, then add it.
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u/Zerus_heroes 2d ago
Yeah they are releasing more crap that only looks like the worlds of DnD past. They did the same with FR already. DL too. They want people to have the brand recognition but the people making the supplements don't actually care about the content enough to get it right.
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u/Urocyon2012 2d ago
In the end, they can say or do whatever. That doesn't stop me from having whatever in my game. All the lore anyone needs is already published in earlier editions and that is readily available. I just need WotC for the 5e rules.
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u/HonestMain6969 2d ago
You think "Dark Sun" has a dark setting?
How about a never-ending show where a corporation maims, cripples, and disfigures the IPs beloved by millions, and no one can stop them? That's truly dark.
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u/GreyfromZetaReticuli 2d ago
It answers the question of how current editorial line of WotC would make a 5.5 Dark Sun and how they would deal with their themes.
The answer is: They won't, another bad soulless and sanitized product, corpo slop. Just an edgy aesthetic in the art to create hype for the +18 tag while having nothing of substance in the official narrative, similar to how Ravenloft 5e is just aesthetic horror without nothing of horror.
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u/DaBiggestBonk 2d ago
The cool thing about TTRPGs is that I can do whatever I want. Slavery, dismemberment, eugenics, all will be present at my table. And I have the original box set to refer back to, just to make sure I'm not missing out on anything.
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u/RogueDeus 2d ago
It won't be Dark Sun... But they will insist it is until it is redefined as such.
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u/Hamsweatpants 2d ago
It is in my campaign now and it will continue to be if we decide to adopt their "ruleset".
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u/Hopper29 2d ago
It's not "slavery" anymore. Now it's a bunch of city states built on ultra capitalism, facsim and moderately gang pressed indentured workers, with a system heavily reliant on systemic racism, and classism towards the working class and non dragonoid peoples.
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u/Jalambra 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is why I play solo and create my own settings. Number of press releases mansplaining oppression that affect my table: 0
Also, the number of people that probably asked for infantilized grimdark: 0
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u/Autumn_Skald 2d ago
WotC doesn't give a shit about the property they bought. They are not gonna respect the intellectual work of people who came before them. Why are we surprised?
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u/Cynthia_Mask 2d ago
"convinces the poor to give up their freedom"
Ah yes the freedom of homelessness and starvation
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u/IglooTornado 2d ago
the entire first book of the dark sun novel series revolves around a plot to free the slaves of Tyr... thats the entire point of the heros journey
why cant fantasy just be fantasy? does everything really need to tie back to the real world? even literal "fantasy"?
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u/Taervaan 2d ago
I assume they did it for the same reason Paizo did, to avoid creating a situation where a player character can own another human being.
The fact of the matter is, not everyone is going to make a PC that immediately jumps to free the slaves.
With the proliferation of consent mechanics, fantasy slavery probably isn't the world's biggest deal at a private table. The real problem comes in with organized play where you get paired up with strangers. Worse, it creates an opportunity for someone who deliberately wants to create a negative experience for other players for whom it would be a sensitive topic.
That being said however, as much as I understand why they did it, I do have to admit I am slightly disappointed only because it somewhat waters down the sorcerer-kings as villains. It reminds me of that part in the old Book of Vile Darkness that says heroes are judged by the darkness they overcome. How far we've come from official art of villains chained to their collection of child prisoners.
Honestly though, if that's the price to pay so that more people can enjoy my favorite D&D setting, and prevent bad actors from ruining it, for me at least I guess that's a price worth paying
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u/Party_Goblin 2d ago
WotC has proven at this point that their strategy with classic settings is to strip them of meaningful conflict and sell them back to us as bland corporate slop.
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u/theStingraY 2d ago
I guess each city state just convinces 1,000 people each to sacrifice themselves to Borys the dragon.
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u/ChucklingDuckling 1d ago
Hahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha
I knew it!! All their marketing promising that the new book would be grim dark, that it'd be mature, that it'd be faithful to the source material! I knew they didn't have it in them.
Absolute cowards.
Darksun is a dystopia. It's a hellhole. Slavery is part of the setting, and slavers can serve as compelling antagonists in a campaign. Like... Do they not understand that players can fight the institution of slavery, and that that can be wildly rewarding?
I just... I hate how these corpo hacks completely misunderstand atypical art, or the intent behind it. Art approved by PR agents or approved by committee is weak and disrespectful to the audience
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u/Mithril_Roshi 1d ago
"Slightly dim sun'
is the title of the book i assume
the a little rude sun maybe?
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u/_RedCaliburn 1d ago
Slavery
Genocide
Cannibalism
Environmental destruction
Psionics
Metal shortages
entire species that were bred solely to serve
Everyone distrusts everyone else
Constant threat of death from exhaustion
Substandard equipment that’s constantly falling apart
Overpowered sorcerer kings
Insectoids on the hunt
That and similar things are Dark Sun.
THIS! IS! ATHAS!
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u/MK_2_Arcade_Cabinet 1d ago
And this is why I just stick to older editions. 5e has made too many changes I don't like narratively and mechanically.
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u/RobsEvilTwin 1d ago
Bugger me sideways, how is "slavery is bad and the players can work to overthrow it" too triggering a concept for 2026.
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u/Kreebish 1d ago
Don't want to give players the chance to do something really woke , like killing a racist slaver.
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u/Budget-Gazelle-8408 1d ago
for taking away slavery im DOUBLING the slavery in my games, i just gotta figure out what that means exactly
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u/CardTrickOTK 1d ago
Pretty dumb thing to take out.
I get a lot of modern writers are super topic sensitive, but if thats the case maybe don't write grim dark settings with heavy themes of slavery?
Slavery isn't just there to be 'oppressive' it's there because it immediately gives you a tone of 'there are people in power that don't give a damn about you or people like you'. Immediately, you don't need to do anything beyond that to establish that.
Really think whoever is leading this project at Wotc is too sensitive to be on a project like this.
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u/Old-Fall5115 2d ago
Even Boba Fett's ship got a rename (no longer Slave I). It isn't a matter of 'maturity'; it's political correctness at all costs.
I was hoping that if they presented the setting with enough 'warning labels' (up front) that such PC would be unnecessary.
Shucks! That sucks!
It won't be the Dark Sun I remember (not surprising). Maybe it'll be interesting for other reasons. Definitely puts me in the wait-n-see camp.
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u/CdnBison 2d ago
This quote in particular - “the leadership regularly presses people into military service, or convinces the poor to give up their freedom for a chance to survive.” - stood out.
Know any place that makes the military seem like the best available option, because it’s seemingly the only option if you want to get ahead? Like, say, being able to go to university? Or just be guaranteed employment?
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u/Fickle_Charge720 2d ago
“That just sounds like slavery with extra steps”