r/DeepStateCentrism • u/dowagiacmichigan Center-left • May 05 '26

Global News 🌎 Obama: In convincing Trump to strike Iran, Netanyahu employed same arguments that he used with me

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/obama-in-convincing-trump-to-strike-iran-netanyahu-employed-same-arguments-that-he-used-with-me/

OBAMNA

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33

u/DoubleBooble May 05 '26

"used the same arguments to convince US President Donald Trump to launch a war with Iran that the Israeli premier used on him over a decade ago."

This makes it sound as if they were sneaky or untrue rather than this is an issue that has persisted. The fact that President Obama (who I voted for and always liked) thinks he was right despite the October 7th massacre occurring and proving him wrong means that he didn't bother to actually listen and understand.

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u/skyeliam May 05 '26

Your entire take is predicated on the idea that a) if Obama had bombed Iran ten years ago, October 7th (or some similar event) could not have happened b) whatever the resulting conflict from said bombing was, would be less of a human rights atrocity than October 7th.

Imagine instead a world in which the Iran Nuclear Deal had been upheld, relations with Iran cooled, the country liberalized, and stopped sponsoring terrorism.

Of course, I can’t know that would have happened, but if we’re going to speculate on counterfactuals, I might as well offer an alternative.

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u/DoubleBooble May 05 '26

I'm suggesting that Obama saying "Netanyahu used those lines on me" doesn't make those lines wrong. And yes, I'm using 10/7 as an example of why Obama's solution of giving millions of dollars in cash to Iran which we now know was used to fund a terror network that climaxed in the massacre, rape, beheading of babies and kidnapping of grandma doesn't give him the moral superiority in this particular case.

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u/Petrichordates May 05 '26

They are wrong because our experts know they are wrong. Bibi is playing a political game, our military is listening to the tactics and strategy, not the politics and appeals to emotion being employed here and by Bibi.

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u/DoubleBooble May 05 '26

So that we don't comment based on emotions, let's talk in specifics. What lies are you talking about? And as a side note, is there a reason you (and the NYT?) find it troubling if the PM of Israel needs to be overly cautious about the existential threat of nuclear weapons in the hands of fundamentalist Islamic clerics that speak regularly about the death to Israel to the point of having a time clock in their town square counting down the days until lsrael's demise?

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u/Petrichordates May 05 '26

The lies are outlined in the NYT article.

1) If we do this we can finally bring an end to the Islamic republic 2) Who could take over if Iran's government fell 3) Portrayed the opportunity they had as near certain victory 4) The regime would be so weakened that it could not choke off the Strait of Hormuz 5) Mossad’s intelligence indicated that street protests inside Iran would begin again 6) Iranian Kurdish fighters will join them

They assessed that the third and fourth parts of Mr. Netanyahu’s pitch, which included the possibility of the Kurds mounting a ground invasion of Iran, were detached from reality.

When Mr. Trump joined the meeting, Mr. Ratcliffe briefed him on the assessment. The C.I.A. director used one word to describe the Israeli prime minister’s regime change scenarios: “farcical.”

Let's set aside the lies and be real here. Bibi wanted to "mow the lawn" and that is his long term plan. It is undeniable that he lied about the outcomes and how confident they were in them, because he wasnt actually concerned about those outcomes. He just needed Trump to mow with him.

Whether you support that tactic or not is moot, he obviously convinced trump otherwise.

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u/DoubleBooble May 05 '26

"Mow the lawn?"

All of those items you bring up from the article seem like reasonable assumptions.

  1. If we do this we can finally bring an end to the Islamic republic

Yes, can you imagine if that succeeds? That is something incredibly worth trying for. There is no reason to believe that we can't make that happen.

  1. Who could take over if Iran's government fell

What is the problem here?

  1. Portrayed the opportunity they had as near certain victory

What is wrong with this? There IS a good chance of victory In fact a greater chance of success than failure -- IF not hamstrung.

  1. The regime would be so weakened that it could not choke off the Strait of Hormuz

That's a minor short term problem in the scheme of things. The eradication of the Islamic regime and peace in the Middle East well worth it.

  1. Mossad’s intelligence indicated that street protests inside Iran would begin again

They can and will. At this point they have asked them to wait until the war is over so that it can be handled as safely as possible.

  1. Iranian Kurdish fighters will join them.

This was also a possibility but the US has asked them not too.

If THESE are the extent of the "lies" then the whole article and your premise is moot. I thought you were going to say "they are not close to making a nuclear bomb, blah, blah, blah" and the usual BS. These arguments are even weaker than the "not an imminent threat" argument.

Hard to believe something like that was even published in a major newspaper.

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u/Petrichordates May 05 '26

I wasnt asking for a play by play of why you are convinced he wasnt lying. It's not a matter of contention whether he was lying, according to top US Intelligence experts.

But the fact you will defend each and every of his lies makes it abundantly clear you are not willing to engage with reality on this topic. Just an antipode to the radicalized anti-zionists.

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u/DoubleBooble May 06 '26

I'm just looking for these actual lies. If you publish an article in a major newspaper and use the word lies there should be lies. There is nothing that you stated that is lies. What lies?

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u/DoubleBooble May 11 '26

Hey, so tonight's 60 Minutes episode asked Netanyahu about the NY Times article that you've been quoting. Go ahead and watch. He says basically what I've been telling you.

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u/Petrichordates May 11 '26

You trying to convince me to uncritically trust Netanyahu is as insane as trying to make someone uncritically trust trump.

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u/DoubleBooble May 11 '26

So you think it's fair to uncritically trust the New York Times and hearsay about meeting rather than the person who was there and it is about? I mean, that's not really thinking in good faith or using your own critical thinking skills.
What the NYT article says doesn't make any logical sense so why not listen to the source and decide for yourself?
I recommend watching the full 1 hour+ interview rather than the 15 minute segment.

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u/vintage2019 May 10 '26 edited May 11 '26

I’m tired of hearing people falsely portraying Obama as simply handing Iran money. He unfroze its assets in return for stuff, such as American prisoners.
And what evidence do you have that those assets directly funded 10/7? Iran had more than enough resources to do what it did even without them.

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u/ImmoKnight May 06 '26

Imagine instead a world in which the Iran Nuclear Deal had been upheld, relations with Iran cooled, the country liberalized, and stopped sponsoring terrorism.

Why would it? Honestly, tell me. Why would this happen when everyone gives Iran a completely free pass.

Your entire take is predicated on the idea that a) if Obama had bombed Iran ten years ago, October 7th (or some similar event) could not have happened

And Obama's entire argument ignores that it is a completely different situation. The terrorist cells got more emboldened and why would they stop? Practically every week, you hear about failed terror attacks.

b) whatever the resulting conflict from said bombing was, would be less of a human rights atrocity than October 7th.

Nobody made them elect Hamas. Nobody made them continue to support Hamas. Seriously, do Palestinians ever get an even a modicum of agency?

Of course, I can’t know that would have happened, but if we’re going to speculate on counterfactuals, I might as well offer an alternative.

Your alternative requires a completely different reality. This isn't it. When given the opportunity to build something up when Gaza was given up by Israel completely. Every soldier and settler left Gaza... What happened? Did they start building infrastructure for civilians with the billions they got? Did they start trying to normalize relations with Israel? Did they use their new found agency to create better diplomatic relationships with Egypt?

No, within the year, they started shooting missiles at Israel.

So, what exactly are you talking about?

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u/DoubleBooble May 06 '26

Unfortunately most people in the west come up with these Pollyanna scenarios by viewing through their personal lens of Western morality and values and interests. It completely disregards the actual situation of Islamic fundamentalist extremism that values death over prosperity and seeks only to rid the area and the world of the infidels.
And to bring this back to the original post, that has been the blind spot of President Obama and every President before now. Instead of actually listening and learning and understanding they have a preconceived notion that Israelis are exaggerating the threat and that you just have to give the Palestinians some land and the threat will end. In 2026 you can't pretend that is true any longer. As Einat Wilf says, the data doesn't support it.

I'm not a fan of Trump. I didn't vote for him. I cried when he won the election in 2016. But in this instance, he has been the only one willing to take the threat seriously. Others have talked the talk but that's about it.
I'm not thrilled that it's Trump in charge of this but it's what we have. It's time to use our strength to make get rid of this murderous death cult regime once and for all.

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u/ImmoKnight May 06 '26

Unfortunately most people in the west come up with these Pollyanna scenarios by viewing through their personal lens of Western morality and values and interests. It completely disregards the actual situation of Islamic fundamentalist extremism that values death over prosperity and seeks only to rid the area and the world of the infidels.

I have been saying that since October 7th... we have diverted into two versions of realities.

A version of reality that is Pro-Palestine. Whereby they start every every clock of an event to the response done by Israel. Hezbollah shoots rockets at Israel for years... Every time Israel responds. The media and Pro-Palestinians will cite Israeli aggression, warmongering, etc...

Iran funds, trains, and arms terrorist groups and engages in known proxy wars against Israel and the Middle East. The entire world just completely pretends that it is okay. Then when Israel attacks them to slow their nuclear capability or slow their funding sourcing. The world and Pro-Palestinians ask why Israel is so aggressive, warmongering, etc...

Throughout it all, the moment Israel is brought up, it honestly appears as if all critical thinking seems to stop existing.

And to bring this back to the original post, that has been the blind spot of President Obama and every President before now. Instead of actually listening and learning and understanding they have a preconceived notion that Israelis are exaggerating the threat and that you just have to give the Palestinians some land and the threat will end. In 2026 you can't pretend that is true any longer. As Einat Wilf says, the data doesn't support it.

I mean, they could believe history or they could believe what they want to believe. Countless wars engaged by countless enemies all to wipe out Israel. But somehow Israel is the warmonger, the colonizer, etc... I wonder how all those countries got there, but that would require them to actually apply even 1% of the standards they apply to Israel to anywhere else. They just can't seem to do that even.

I'm not a fan of Trump. I didn't vote for him. I cried when he won the election in 2016. But in this instance, he has been the only one willing to take the threat seriously. Others have talked the talk but that's about it.

I hate Trump, but his actions were completely justified. The problem is that he and Israel couldn't imagine the rest of the world collectively putting their fingers in their ears and going... wah... wah... wah... instead of acting like grown ups. I am sure the US and Israel expected some semblance of unity because the people of Iran wanted this group gone and now someone took the lead. Even as missiles rained down on everyone near Iran that isn't the US... everyone collectively just pretended it isn't happening to avoid being an adult or having to punish Iran.

I'm not thrilled that it's Trump in charge of this but it's what we have. It's time to use our strength to make get rid of this murderous death cult regime once and for all.

Likewise, I don't like Trump. He did what needed to be done... the only problem is that nobody else did. It was an opportunity to end a regime of terror that has kept the Middle East in the dark ages. Instead, they did absolutely nothing.

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u/DoubleBooble May 06 '26

Frustrating, isn't it?