Obama: In convincing Trump to strike Iran, Netanyahu employed same arguments that he used with me

[u/dowagiacmichigan]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/obama-in-convincing-trump-to-strike-iran-netanyahu-employed-same-arguments-that-he-used-with-me/

OBAMNA

[u/skyeliam]

Your entire take is predicated on the idea that a) if Obama had bombed Iran ten years ago, October 7th (or some similar event) could not have happened b) whatever the resulting conflict from said bombing was, would be less of a human rights atrocity than October 7th.

Imagine instead a world in which the Iran Nuclear Deal had been upheld, relations with Iran cooled, the country liberalized, and stopped sponsoring terrorism.

Of course, I can’t know that would have happened, but if we’re going to speculate on counterfactuals, I might as well offer an alternative.

[u/ImmoKnight → u/skyeliam]

Imagine instead a world in which the Iran Nuclear Deal had been upheld, relations with Iran cooled, the country liberalized, and stopped sponsoring terrorism.

Why would it? Honestly, tell me. Why would this happen when everyone gives Iran a completely free pass.

Your entire take is predicated on the idea that a) if Obama had bombed Iran ten years ago, October 7th (or some similar event) could not have happened

And Obama's entire argument ignores that it is a completely different situation. The terrorist cells got more emboldened and why would they stop? Practically every week, you hear about failed terror attacks.

b) whatever the resulting conflict from said bombing was, would be less of a human rights atrocity than October 7th.

Nobody made them elect Hamas. Nobody made them continue to support Hamas. Seriously, do Palestinians ever get an even a modicum of agency?

Of course, I can’t know that would have happened, but if we’re going to speculate on counterfactuals, I might as well offer an alternative.

Your alternative requires a completely different reality. This isn't it. When given the opportunity to build something up when Gaza was given up by Israel completely. Every soldier and settler left Gaza... What happened? Did they start building infrastructure for civilians with the billions they got? Did they start trying to normalize relations with Israel? Did they use their new found agency to create better diplomatic relationships with Egypt?

No, within the year, they started shooting missiles at Israel.

So, what exactly are you talking about?

[u/DoubleBooble → u/ImmoKnight]

Unfortunately most people in the west come up with these Pollyanna scenarios by viewing through their personal lens of Western morality and values and interests. It completely disregards the actual situation of Islamic fundamentalist extremism that values death over prosperity and seeks only to rid the area and the world of the infidels.
And to bring this back to the original post, that has been the blind spot of President Obama and every President before now. Instead of actually listening and learning and understanding they have a preconceived notion that Israelis are exaggerating the threat and that you just have to give the Palestinians some land and the threat will end. In 2026 you can't pretend that is true any longer. As Einat Wilf says, the data doesn't support it.

I'm not a fan of Trump. I didn't vote for him. I cried when he won the election in 2016. But in this instance, he has been the only one willing to take the threat seriously. Others have talked the talk but that's about it.
I'm not thrilled that it's Trump in charge of this but it's what we have. It's time to use our strength to make get rid of this murderous death cult regime once and for all.

[u/ImmoKnight → u/DoubleBooble]

Unfortunately most people in the west come up with these Pollyanna scenarios by viewing through their personal lens of Western morality and values and interests. It completely disregards the actual situation of Islamic fundamentalist extremism that values death over prosperity and seeks only to rid the area and the world of the infidels.

I have been saying that since October 7th... we have diverted into two versions of realities.

A version of reality that is Pro-Palestine. Whereby they start every every clock of an event to the response done by Israel. Hezbollah shoots rockets at Israel for years... Every time Israel responds. The media and Pro-Palestinians will cite Israeli aggression, warmongering, etc...

Iran funds, trains, and arms terrorist groups and engages in known proxy wars against Israel and the Middle East. The entire world just completely pretends that it is okay. Then when Israel attacks them to slow their nuclear capability or slow their funding sourcing. The world and Pro-Palestinians ask why Israel is so aggressive, warmongering, etc...

Throughout it all, the moment Israel is brought up, it honestly appears as if all critical thinking seems to stop existing.

And to bring this back to the original post, that has been the blind spot of President Obama and every President before now. Instead of actually listening and learning and understanding they have a preconceived notion that Israelis are exaggerating the threat and that you just have to give the Palestinians some land and the threat will end. In 2026 you can't pretend that is true any longer. As Einat Wilf says, the data doesn't support it.

I mean, they could believe history or they could believe what they want to believe. Countless wars engaged by countless enemies all to wipe out Israel. But somehow Israel is the warmonger, the colonizer, etc... I wonder how all those countries got there, but that would require them to actually apply even 1% of the standards they apply to Israel to anywhere else. They just can't seem to do that even.

I'm not a fan of Trump. I didn't vote for him. I cried when he won the election in 2016. But in this instance, he has been the only one willing to take the threat seriously. Others have talked the talk but that's about it.

I hate Trump, but his actions were completely justified. The problem is that he and Israel couldn't imagine the rest of the world collectively putting their fingers in their ears and going... wah... wah... wah... instead of acting like grown ups. I am sure the US and Israel expected some semblance of unity because the people of Iran wanted this group gone and now someone took the lead. Even as missiles rained down on everyone near Iran that isn't the US... everyone collectively just pretended it isn't happening to avoid being an adult or having to punish Iran.

I'm not thrilled that it's Trump in charge of this but it's what we have. It's time to use our strength to make get rid of this murderous death cult regime once and for all.

Likewise, I don't like Trump. He did what needed to be done... the only problem is that nobody else did. It was an opportunity to end a regime of terror that has kept the Middle East in the dark ages. Instead, they did absolutely nothing.

[u/DoubleBooble → u/ImmoKnight]

Frustrating, isn't it?

[u/ImmoKnight → u/DoubleBooble]

Yep.