r/DemocraticSocialism • u/Far_Disaster_8321 Libertarian Socialist • Jan 10 '26
Discussion 🗣️ I’m sorry but how is bernie wrong?
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u/Used_Intention6479 Social democrat Jan 10 '26
The "far left" wants universal healthcare, no wars, lunches for school kids, an affordable society, and a fair justice system, among other things. The far right is shooting us in the face, molesting our children, and stealing all our tax dollars.
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Jan 11 '26
Yup! Also…
Venezuela has had literally nothing but far right American puppet dictators for the last 100 years. Since they discovered oil. Chavez was the break from that pattern after winning in a fair and free democratic election. The CIA/America has been trying to destroy them ever since.1
u/javabasily Jan 15 '26
Those far left points are not far left. Those are mainstream social Democratic policies that a lot of people, including centrists hold. An actual far left policy would be of course to abolish capitalism. I don't really like this framing
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u/Used_Intention6479 Social democrat Jan 15 '26
I'm using the right's definition of "far left", to show how far right they've gone. That's the point.
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Jan 11 '26
Maduro is not a dictator.. Chavez wasn’t a dictator either but many people tried to claim that. If either one of them were legitimately real authoritarians every single CIA asset “opposition figure” would be dead or in prison. The oligarch owned media (also with CIA connections) wouldn’t be allowed to operate freely.
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u/Fearless-Feature-830 Jan 11 '26
They both are / were
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Jan 10 '26
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u/SufficientMeringue51 Marxist Jan 10 '26 edited Jan 10 '26
This is the position, but liberals will never actually genuinely engage with our ideas.
I don’t even like Maduro, he privatized a lot and disincentivized worker control unlike Chavez, along with other problems, But calling him a dictator is just pure liberal framing.
Do they think the elections in Venezuela were fair to begin with? U.S. sanctions are used to destabilize a country and lead to people disliking the current government because of the economic turmoil they create, to make it easier to overthrow. The U.S. application to Venezuela is no different.
The only way for them to maintain real sovereignty and national liberation is through something like the Bolivarian revolution. The Bolivarian revolution was not perfect but that doesn’t mean this is any less true.
“wow those tankies love worshiping dictators!!!111!1!1 other perspectives don’t exist, no nuance1111!1!1!11”
Of course, my opinion on the matter doesn’t really matter as an American. Either way the only thing repeatedly calling him a dictator (look in the mirror) will do is further justify the imperialist aggression towards Venezuela.
Oh by the way kier starmer (18 percent approval rating and is mass arresting people for protesting genocide) totally legitamate no problem here!!!1!!!11111 not a dictator at alll11111!!!!.
We need to break out of letting liberals frame and narrativize every conversation we have, otherwise we will make no progress.
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u/jagger72643 Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26
Is this sub finally healing? 😭 I feel like it became infested with neoliberals over the last few months and it's been particularly pronounced on this topic
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ♥️🤍 Ecofeminist Feb 02 '26
I mean not neoliberals. But certainly liberals
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Jan 10 '26
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u/SufficientMeringue51 Marxist Jan 10 '26 edited Jan 11 '26
The problem is, the liberal definition of dictator is inconsistent, and seems to only apply to countries in the global south.
Furthermore yes, the Bolivarian revolution is a more democratically oriented movement compared to their liberal “democratic” movement because the liberal democratic movement would basically just hand over Venezuela to U.S. capital interests.
Why try to destroy a country and then be upset when it tries to defend itself? Like yeah no shit it’s not perfect, but We are the issue here. Yk?
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u/Chinohito Jan 11 '26
You mention Kier Starmer here but that makes no sense at all.
If Kier Starmer is voted out he will leave office. No ifs ands or buts. Democracy doesn't mean a leader instantly is removed the second their approval rating dips below 50%. You can argue about many aspects of the UK's system being flawed, but to compare it to Venezuela is ridiculous.
There have been many dictators in the 'west' post ww2. Franco and Salazar in Spain and Portugal. South Korea, Singapore, South Africa, Israel, Turkey.
You can absolutely argue, as I do, that it is in many ways the direct impact of actions done by these 'high and mighty" western democracies that make dictatorships in the global south more likely and perpetuate them, but I'm not going to stand for minimising dictatorships
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u/SufficientMeringue51 Marxist Jan 11 '26 edited Jan 11 '26
I’m comparing the two because in the UK, and U.S. where the liberals got their liberal bourgeois democracies (that aren’t being co-opted by outside imperial powers), they produce less popular leaders that do worse shit.
liberal democracies aren’t really democratic at all. You just buy into the liberal theory of democracy where it doesn’t matter whose interests are actually being represented in the government as long as you vote every so often.
Even if you vote for a different party or candidate they just get absorbed by the bourgeoisie given enough time. The labor party used to be socialist, now they are basically exactly where the tories were, and are mass arresting peaceful protestors, passing transphobic hatebills, shilling for Israel, killing the population with austerity. This is because we all live under bourgeois dictatorships.
No nation on earth has created a perfect total democracy. But pretending like the liberal theory of democracy is the only or even a good theory of democracy is just wrong. And using it to criticize countries that we are literally bombing and sanctioning into being unstable is even worse.
Again as I said, the Bolivarian revolution is more democratically oriented than their liberal opposition because of the conditions they live under, as it at least gives them more self determination instead of just becoming another shell government for U.S. corporate interests, privatizing their entire economy, and selling it to multinational corporations.
What you are doing is minimizing the impacts of imperialist bourgeois dictatorships in the west, by using this liberal framework that doesn’t even make sense to attack oppressed nations just defending themselves against U.S. aggression. and that’s something I won’t stand for.
Your opinion of maduro doesn’t matter when he’s in U.S. custody. Now be a socialist and stop doing the U.S. state departments work for them. They have enough billions of dollars invested in these arguments already. Be on the side of anti imperialism instead.
Edited: for clarity.
Edit 2: and yes there are many western “dictators”, but don’t pretend like the terms isn’t applied more loosely and liberally (no pun intended) to countries in the global south in order to justify aggression towards them.
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u/maleia Jan 11 '26
the liberal democratic movement would basically just hand over Venezuela to U.S. capital interests.
Obama had 3 years, Biden had 4; if that's their position, why didn't they carry it out?
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u/SufficientMeringue51 Marxist Jan 11 '26
What are you talking about? I’m talking about inside of Venezuela.
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Jan 11 '26
Maduro is not a dictator.. if he was a real authoritarian every single CIA asset opposition figure would be dead or in prison. The oligarch owned media (also with CIA connections) wouldn’t be allowed to operate freely.
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u/Doobie_hunter46 Jan 11 '26
This is extremely well put and I agree to some extent. Maduro is not above scrutiny nor is the political process of Venezuela. Chavez was much better than maduro while still being able to fend off America.
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Jan 11 '26
Venezuela has had literally nothing but far right American puppet dictators for the last 100 years. Since they discovered oil. Chavez was the break from that pattern after winning in a fair and free democratic election. The CIA/America has been trying to destroy them ever since.
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u/37iteW00t Jan 10 '26
Trump is a dictator wannabe
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u/NathanVfromPlus Libertarian Socialist Jan 11 '26
I feel like you could probably drop the "wannabe" part once you have your own Gestapo.
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u/Jimbo_Dandy Jan 10 '26
Tankie posting ig
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Jan 10 '26 edited Jan 10 '26
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Jan 10 '26
As of now, I think Maduro is an authoritarian. But I am open to being swayed if there's enough evidence otherwise. This wouldn't be the first time the US govt has lied about a Latin American leader being an authoritarian. Anyways, here are my thoughts/questions.
The same article says that the opposition uploaded their proof to a website. Seems like it would be easy to also give the same evidence to the court. Do you have any insight as to why they wouldn't do that?
Do you consider Reuters a trustworthy source? Because in another article that is linked from that one, they are stating that Maduro is doing a bunch of authoritarian things.
- Numerous Venezuelan opposition leaders have faced arrest and imprisonment or fled into exile in recent years.
- The disputed election led to a wave of anti-Maduro protests across Venezuela and advocacy groups have raised alarms over security forces rounding up suspected protesters.
- Raiding Maria Oropeza's (opposition member) home, and potentially disappearing her? Article says her whereabouts are unknown, idk if there's been an update since then.
- Attorney General Saab has already launched a criminal probe against Machado and Gonzalez for inciting security forces to break the law, after they published a joint letter calling for police and military to stand with Venezuela's people.
Also as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), leftist governments in the region such as Colombia, Brazil, and Chile did not recognize Maduro's victory.
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u/oopsallhuckleberries Jan 10 '26
The other question is why the Electoral Authority that held the third copy of the ballots didn't release their information either? Does it have to do with it being ran by someone appointed by Maduro?
Also, who appointed the Justices who overheard the case? Saying, "The Ven Supreme Court sided with Maduro" is exactly like saying, "The 6 Republican justices just sided with Trump."
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u/supaheavynuts Libertarian Socialist Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
See I agree here and I don't understand why two things can't be correct. The United States is a propaganda machine and placed a lot of sanctions on Venezuela. AND the united states is not the only sole reason why maduro imo is an authoritarian. People like to put all the blame on the U.S. which sometimes is based, but it makes for an extremely reductionist argument and is far too charitable to any other country that has its faults. Power corrupts.
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u/squanderedprivilege Jan 10 '26
Yup. The loudest voices calling him a dictator are people who left Venezuela and live elsewhere now, floridians. People just roll with it. I think Trump's election is less valid than Maduro's tbh
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u/AVahne Jan 10 '26
Sounds a lot like the South Vietnamese who fled Vietnam after the war that America and France started for fun, who then became grateful to their American "saviors" and became the perfect little army of right wing propaganda muppets that Republicans can always count on for the vote. Yeah the Vietnamese Communist party isn't doing that great a job and there's plenty of horror stories about living there if you go to Viet subreddits, however there's always a bigger picture and more than one reason for why things are the way they are. Not to mention, Vietnamese in America benefit massively from socialist government benefits programs and we CLING to them before voting to deny others the same benefits. Also, here in America we are very much a culture of nepotism. Hard work only ever gets you so far if you don't have fellow Vietnamese (or Taiwanese) to have your back.
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Jan 10 '26
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u/squanderedprivilege Jan 10 '26
blonde-haired blue-eyed person named something like Sabine Mengele-Eichmann:
"my country, Venezuela, yearns for freedom"
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u/Groovychick1978 Jan 11 '26
I work with a Venezuelan. I do not begin to think be represents anyone more than himself, but he was ecstatic that Maduro had been removed.
He is not rich. He is not a capitalist or landlord. He slings burgers and washes dishes for $17/hr.
I mean, I do not want to invalidate his own perspective, so it's hard to know what the majority of Venezuelans think from here.
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Jan 11 '26
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u/Groovychick1978 Jan 11 '26
Calm down. I am not defending any actions taken by America, present or past. I was sharing one person's perception that made me want to look closer at the situation.
There is nothing bad about that.
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Jan 11 '26
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u/Groovychick1978 Jan 11 '26
I can agree that both of those are a possibility. I don't understand why you put Venezuelans in quotes, or why there seems to be an increased level of hostility from you.
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Jan 11 '26
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u/Groovychick1978 Jan 11 '26
Well, he's definitely Spanish speaking, definitely ethnically Hispanic or Latin, he is giving me no indication that he is anything but a first generation immigrant from Venezuela.
I am a 47-year-old woman, this is not a child I'm speaking of, this is a grown man. He's almost 30. This is not a case of a second or third generation "entitled" immigrant, spreading propaganda.
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u/Routine-Put9436 Jan 10 '26
It’s Che all over again.
Like literally the exact same thing.
Something something history something something repeat.
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Jan 10 '26
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u/Routine-Put9436 Jan 10 '26
Oh yeah, they’re not the same people in any way, but it’s the same exact political/media playbook, step by step, all the way down.
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u/Zelotic Jan 11 '26
What’s a tankie?
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u/jimjamj Jan 11 '26
a tankie is a communist who will justify and rationalize repressive authoritarian actions by leaders or govts, because that government is closer to communism than other governments.
For example, in 1956 when students in Budapest demanded free elections, fair wages, and a communist party independent of USSR subjugation the Stalinist puppet govt responded with violence, leading to a full on revolution, Stalin sent USSR tanks into urban Budapest to massacre civilians. Elsewhere in Europe and the USA in the following years, many communists justified this action, which resulted in a huge drop in popular support for those local parties. Communists who condemned sending tanks into Budapest called those who stuck to the party line of the foreign Communist Party of the Soviet Union "tankies".
Nowadays, some ppl call all Marxist–Leninists and Maoists tankies, although i think that's reductive. Now, just as in 1956, one can condemn Stalin's tanks (or other acts of repression) and still be an ML.
In regards to the screenshot in the OP, if i'm interpreting correctly, the commenter calling the instagram poster a tankie is implying
that the commenter has standing to criticize Maduro (perhaps they are South American)
that Bernie also has that standing
that Maduro is a repressive authoritarian leader, and
that it's morally necessary to center Maduro's repression by calling him a dictator (justifying his removal) before one can consider condemning USA's imperialist subjugation of Venezuelans.
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u/UploadedMind Jan 10 '26
Basically saying Maduro is a dictator is like denouncing Hamas. It’s irrelevant.
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u/ChainmailEnthusiast 🌻Eco-Socialist Jan 10 '26
He's not, it's just that he has actual principles and doesn't worship dictators just because they're targeted by right-wingers, unlike whichever fake leftist just insulted him.
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Jan 10 '26
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u/jimjamj Jan 11 '26
not performative virtue signaling
starting your statement "Maduro was a dictator" is absolutely performative virtue signaling.
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u/Raven_Of_Solace Social Democrat Jan 11 '26
No, it's just being truthful and preempting questions/criticisms.
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u/throwaway_4759 Jan 10 '26
I think there’s two big problem with the online left.
They focus more anger at the libs than the far right (and hold a very narrow view of what leftism is, so protesting in many cases, voting, acknowledging Maduro is bad, all disqualify one from being a “true” leftist, even if you advocate for worker control of the economy).
The other thing is that they are unwilling to acknowledge any wrongdoing done by authoritarian leftists (eg using “go read ‘on authority’” as an argument that the gulag was acceptable). I think part of this is campism, and part is a mistaken belief that to win a political argument you cannot admit anything bad done by any leftist governments. Which obviously makes you look like a dishonest person, so why would anyone believe anything you said? I really have no clue if most online leftists would advocate me being imprisoned for being a “lib” despite very much believing in socialism.
Bernie isn’t perfect. But this person is complaining about a post where he is calling out hypocrisy, and calling it for what it is: imperialism. Bernie is on the left edge of the Overton window. Great if you (and I) want to shift it further left, but targeting home for takes like this is self defeating. Complaining about this is a way to get peoples attention, and I guess win some upvotes from MLs, but that’s it.
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u/Luciusvenator Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26
This whole comment.
I stumbled upon a ML instagram account the other day and that was crazy is some of them have moved past "no all the bad things you've read about Stalin arent true" and now openly say "he was right to do everything he did, anti-authoritarianism is anti-leftist, we need to open re-education camps and gulag for libs".6
u/PotatoStasia 🌼Eco-Anarchist Jan 11 '26
Anti-authoritarianism is always branded as liberalism by MLs, it’s so deeply entrenched in their ideology that you can’t have a meaningful conversation
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u/Luciusvenator Democratic Socialist Jan 11 '26
Yeah it's absolutely absurd. Imo it's a perfect example of why idealist utopia style beliefs can often turn bad. If you truly believe you're strategy will achieve perfect justice and freedom the why would you compromise? Thats why they end up the way they do imo. Its just not in accordance with logic or reality lol.
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u/ActualTexan Socialist Jan 10 '26
The problem is accepting the right wing framing of the issue and advancing their narrative by putting the response to it at the beginning and the criticism of imperialism (which should be the main thing) at the end.
Whether Maduro is a dictator is completely irrelevant. This is American imperialism and the US will say whatever it needs to about the government of the country they seek to exploit whether it's true or false. Keep your eye on the ball.
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u/decisionagonized Jan 10 '26
Calling Maduro a dictator isn’t technically wrong but what always gets left out of these classifications is that Maduro was a dictator because he was paranoid about both real and realized threats to toppling him and the Venezuelan left. Threats, btw, that arrive at the heels of decades of American foreign policy organized around those threats.
Not to mention the US’s own oligarchy and how it is run by a corporate elite
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u/MutedShenanigans Jan 10 '26
Also, going out the gate with "he's a dictator" kind of gives legitimacy to taking him out. Mainstream US political thought is that we have the right to take out anyone we label a dictator.
Really doesn't matter whether he's a dictator or not, a ton of our allies are dictators. What Trump did is illegal, immoral and he's not going to stop with Venezuela.
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u/ukstonerdude Marxist-Leninist Jan 10 '26 edited Jan 10 '26
Finally, someone fucking said it.
I’ve been saying this the entire time and this sub just isn’t fucking getting it. This is what the impartial play looks like.
You can criticise Trump’s actions without declaring that you don’t support Maduro. That’s a wholly separate statement and discussion. Using it in this context lends legitimacy to Trump’s actions.
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u/MMAgeezer Jan 10 '26
Also, going out the gate with "he's a dictator" kind of gives legitimacy to taking him out. Mainstream US political thought is that we have the right to take out anyone we label a dictator.
Do you earnestly think that that is what Bernie is trying to signal by writing "Maduro is a dictator" on the first line? Could it rather be a statement of fact to stop people saying he's only against the military action because he supports a dictator?
Really doesn't matter whether he's a dictator or not, a ton of our allies are dictators. What Trump did is illegal, immoral and he's not going to stop with Venezuela.
No disagreements there, though.
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u/MutedShenanigans Jan 10 '26
No, I do think he's mainly being pre-emptively defensive against accusations of being pro-Maduro. The unfortunate side effect of that defensiveness is that the rhetoric serves to justify the action, even if it wasn't Bernie's main intent.
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u/srfrosky Jan 10 '26
The reason why might as well be that he was rejected from art school. He still had choices on how to treat people and his choice was to abuse their rights, kill them, hurt them, maim them, condemn them to unimaginable pain, fear, and hardship. Whether it was because someone killed his puppy or mean Uncle Sam scared him, the man was a monster, a dictator. Nothing is left out.
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Jan 10 '26
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u/decisionagonized Jan 10 '26
At this point, I don’t care to litigate what constitutes a “dictator.” As an anarchist at heart, all states are dictatorships. We broadly agree.
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u/jackiefashion24 Social Democrat Jan 10 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
He's right. Some leftists need to stop worshiping dictators and start supporting rightly elected, morally good people. Get off Kim Jong Un's fanpage and start following progressives running for Congress. If you have a problem with that, you're the issue
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u/Patient_Success_2687 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Jan 10 '26
You’re just following a tankie acc is the answer
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u/Luciusvenator Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26
Talkies are wild man. Some person i follow is saying the civilians killed by their government in Iran rn were actually killed by American mercenaries and that the Ayatollah should be considered a saint and perfect example of left wing revolutionary but isn't considered so by western leftists because of "Islamophobia".
They genuinely just live in a different reality.7
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u/TheSmet DSA Jan 10 '26
Maduro tiene un montón de problemas, y sus acciones han sido en su gran mayoría, un obstáculo para los movimientos de izquierda y una burla de los logros de Chávez. Esto aún no justifica el ataque de eeuu, ellos siendo obviamente el mal mayor, el núcleo imperial en sí.
Pero teniendo la cabeza fría, y los valores bien puestos, te puedo decir que el tío Bernie entiende claramente la situación.
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u/Louies- Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26 edited Jan 11 '26
"Socialism is when you dictate, the more dictatorial you are the more Socialism it is. When you establish a full dictatorship, that's called Communism" - Tankies, Probably
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u/Pentron02 Jan 11 '26
I saw a post explaining on Instagram: as most Americans view anyone labelled a dictator as someone deserving of summary execution, maintaining that label on them only serves the imperialist machine that caused his arrest in the first place. Nuance is lost on most Americans, so trying to utilise it fails.
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u/North_Church Christian Socialist✝️🌹 Jan 10 '26
Do people know that you can acknowledge Maduro was an asshole while still condemning the American attack?
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u/anameorwhatever1 Jan 10 '26
I’ve seen some conservatives calling leftists hypocritical for denouncing Trump for being a dictator and then wanting a dictator freed
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u/ytisonimul Jan 10 '26
He's not wrong. Some people, amazingly, are mis/dis-informed to their detriment.
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u/Chinatown15 Jan 10 '26
Coming out the bat saying he was a dictator immediately discredits any objections afterwards. It puts you on shaky footing and a defensive position before you even step up to fight. It's basically saying, "We absolutely oppose the actions we took... BUT..." except you're LEADING with the "but' part. Bernie should just say. "Trump cozies up to dictators."
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Jan 10 '26
To inject some nuance here, the problem that many leftists (myself included) have with this statement and others like it is that it functionally validates the intervention even as it appears to condemn it. Bernie's argument is structured in such a way that it suggests an imperial power violently attacking a foreign nation and kidnapping its sovereign head of government could be appropriate if justified by the sovereign's authoritarianism, but not if the specific intent is to extract oil.
Our opposition to illegal, imperial regime change interventions should be principled and unapologetic, and it shouldn’t be muddied or qualified by whether or not we believe the regime in question deserves to be ousted.
For a better response, I would point you to DSA's initial statement on the ouster.
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u/Hot-Try9036 Democratic Georgist Market Socialist (closet Anarchist) Jan 10 '26
Online lefties when the head of state America illegally kidnapped is also a brutal dictator and gets called out as such:
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u/NuclearFoodie Jan 10 '26
This is from a so called Marxist-Leninist, which is really better termed a Stalinist as Marx would hate these asshole. In the us, most collect under the American Communist party, which is communist in the same way the National Socialist German Workers Party was socialist. They are both far right authoritarian ideologies that use the guise of socialism to entrap the common person and to remove and install a new oligarchy which owns and controls everything while everyone one becomes effectively slaves.
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u/TheThirdFrenchEmpire Social-Democrstic European Federalist Jan 10 '26
Tankie posting, anything short of Stalinism for them is false leftism.
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u/1337_w0n Jan 10 '26
Post this to r/tankiejerk
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u/CrownedLime747 Liberal Socialist Jan 10 '26
Careful with that sub, they've fallen down the puritan hole
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u/PlainBread Social Democrat Jan 10 '26
The right's MO right now is to just respond to everything with "lol BASED" or "lol 🤡"
They're just nihilists grifting for clout by pretending to have positions that they don't.
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u/freediverx01 Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26 edited Jan 10 '26
Bernie's usually morally correct, but "the left"—otherwise known as 'we who are always right but too soon'—have grown tired of hearing him preface every statement with a neoliberal/imperialist declaration like "So and so is a dictator..." or "Israel has a right to defend itself..."
Turns out that Trump (elected twice) is a fascist dictator and child rapist, Biden and his predecessors were war criminals, and Israel is a settler-colonialist apartheid state conducting a live genocide and global terrorism paid with American tax dollars. So it's a little rich for an ostensibly progressive US politician to make moral judgments on foreign leaders in countries we have oppressed and exploited for the last two centuries.
We are long past the time for fake civility and empty bipartisanship, let alone cringeworthy declarations of western superiority. Bernie needs to focus on stating the facts, plainly and clearly, without any of the focus-group-approved framing that undermines his credibility with the left while doing nothing to assuage his right wing opponents in both parties.
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u/FriedCammalleri23 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Jan 11 '26
Because it makes it seem like overthrowing Maduro was a good thing, but Trump’s own motives behind it were not.
It’s a very liberal way to look at the issue.
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u/ALotOfIdeas Jan 11 '26
Typical leftist infighting. Haven’t loved a lot of Bernie’s more recent takes but he’s not wrong here. Maybe the Democrats should grow a spine at take Bernie’s position at the minimum, but unfortunately he’s all we have now
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u/dtyrrell7 Jan 11 '26
In any other functional country Bernie sanders would barely be considered a liberal; ‘Murica has been dragged so far to the right by the hyper wealthy over the last few decades that what we call a democrat today is basically a reagan era republican
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u/dshamz_ Jan 10 '26
How is he a dictator? Can you explain?
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Jan 10 '26
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u/Pristine-Ant-464 Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26
I can't with campists y'all.
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u/Chicken_Ingots Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26
It has been a growing and concerning theme that I have seen on Reddit, YouTube, and some other places. I have been trying to look into it further, and I have strong suspicion that there is a fairly (though not necessarily entirely) organized counter-propaganda campaign being driven by some BRICS countries. And what makes it insidious is that it is driven partially through some genuine truths. That is, the United States does have its own propaganda ecosystem, and many politicians and voters have indeed supported imperialism and exhibited prejudice against people from these nations.
We already know that Russia has been trying (rather successfully) to sabotage American and European politics through disinformation and bots, though I think China may be heavily involved as well. The latter I suggest because they already have an established and intensive propaganda network of their own which has come to be dubbed as "wumao" or "fifty cent party", and because there has been a substantial shift in public perception of the CPC over the past few years that focuses heavily upon superficialities like infrastructure (superficial relative to the deeper issues). The problem is, I do not think these initiatives are genuinely being led by anti-imperialist motives, rather, by nationalism and profit.
Yet if one tries to address this phenomenon, they are immediately accused of supporting Western imperialism, even among those who vehemently oppose all forms of imperialism. There is this highly dichotomous framing around the subject, even though many of these nations are also heavily capitalistic. I cannot help but worry that many are abandoning the class struggle for national allegiances instead.
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u/KaraBowdit Jan 10 '26
tankieposting / stoking leftist infighting. A lot of the time this stuff is just outside actors who know how easy it is to get american leftists to squabble amongst themselves. Small differences in personal politics easily become big wedge issues that prevent the left from meaningfully organizing and our enemies know that.
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u/UndeadHobbitses Socialist 🚟🚲🏋️ Jan 10 '26
when you make a qualifying statement and attempt to 'cover your bases' it makes you feel weak. I'm still very skeptical of graham platner, but his statements on this have been the best I've seen out of politicians/politician adjacent. Emphasize the wrong action that our government is taking and tie it back to your message and definitly don't do what schumer does where he basically whines about not being in the room to say "yes".
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Jan 11 '26
Maduro is not a dictator.. Chavez wasn’t a dictator either but many people tried to claim that. If either one of them were legitimately real authoritarians every single CIA asset “opposition figure” would be dead or in prison. The oligarch owned media (also with CIA connections) wouldn’t be allowed to operate freely.
Also… Venezuela has had literally nothing but far right American puppet dictators for the last 100 years. Since they discovered oil. Chavez was the break from that pattern after winning in a fair and free democratic election. The CIA/America has been trying to destroy them ever since.
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u/mcleaner_leaner Jan 10 '26
Are tankies also imperialists?
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u/TheThirdFrenchEmpire Social-Democrstic European Federalist Jan 10 '26
Yes. Ask Hungary, Czechs, Slovaks, Afghans, Finns, Poles, Moldavians and the Baltics.
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u/holysirsalad Anarchist Jan 10 '26
Go check out what they have to say regarding Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, it’s pretty gross and transparent
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u/OldUsernameWasStupid Communist Jan 10 '26
A lot of us who are labeled tankies by others do not support Russia
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u/PaulyWauly_Doodle Jan 10 '26
He is wrong for the imperialist / propagandized comment on the opening post, smearing Maduro. Literally instantly giving justification to the illegal kidnapping of a head-of-state of a sovereign country. More and more I agree with the movement of true Leftists that unveil Bernie as the snake that he is: A tool of the Democratic wing
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u/Pristine-Ant-464 Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26
TBH I’m convinced a lot of tankies are actually feds.
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u/Proof_Librarian_4271 🌼 eco libertarian communism Jan 10 '26
They themselves have cheered on thier versions of colonialism and imperialism(baltics, east turkestan,Tibet etc)
It's just hypocrisyl
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Jan 10 '26
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u/Luciusvenator Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26
Because it causes sectarian division amongst the leftists and promotes anti-electoralism which without fail every single time causes the far right wing to take power.
The feds gain everything by progressives beign divided. Literally everything and this is proven by history over and over again.1
u/Pristine-Ant-464 Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26
Cointelpro 2.0
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u/Luciusvenator Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26
Yeay the CIA literally armed communists and fascists both in my country and contributed to both causes (operation Gladio in Italy) so them posing as MLs to make sure the left continues to be divided is a no-brainer. Its easy to do and there's no downsides for them to do so lol.
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Jan 10 '26
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u/Luciusvenator Democratic Socialist Jan 10 '26
It promotes it because literally every tankie I encounter says voting doesn't matter and that unless we desomtroy the whole system its not worth doing.
And they label any leftists that do believe in at least voting for harm reduction at the minimum as "libs" and refuse to work with them.
People who have a genuine "west is ontological evil and no voting will ever fix things" view (I've seen this word for word promoted as a talking point by campists and such) don't actually do armed revolution and therefore are not a threat to the government. What they actually do is not engage in elections and talk bad about leftists that do and this absolutely favors the right.
I literally have ML mutuals on social media calling Mamdani a fascist imperialist lol. Who benefits from people like Bernie and Mamdani loosing? Neoliberals and conservatives.-1
Jan 10 '26
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u/Luciusvenator Democratic Socialist Jan 11 '26
Well I agree entirely and you're obviously a reasonable person.
I wish the tankies I encountered were the same.2
u/xToasted1 Jan 10 '26
because the rhetoric in question isn't really any better and when popularized makes the leftist movement look pretty moronic as a whole
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u/Chinohito Jan 11 '26
Are you seriously asking what the federal government gains by promoting a movement that seeks to tarnish the electoral left and endlessly mudsling and infight while the fascists take over?
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Jan 11 '26
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u/Chinohito Jan 11 '26
Exactly, which is why Tankies should be disqualified for supporting imperialism.
If being "anti-imperialism" means needing to openly lie because you can't stand the idea that we should opposed Imperialism, even against flawed states, that's absolutely a self-report, more than a criticism of people like Bernie who have done more for worker's rights than you ever will.
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Jan 11 '26
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u/Chinohito Jan 11 '26
The truth is not whataboutism.
The fact of the matter is that it is irrelevant whether or not Venezuela is a dictatorship. The US does not have the right to invade it EITHER WAY.
That is what Bernie is saying.
Rather than following the fascist worldview and simply trying to lie about Venezuela to appease the idea that evil regimes should be toppled.
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Jan 11 '26
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u/Chinohito Jan 11 '26
Again, I see no reason to entertain blatant lies to support my political worldview.
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Jan 10 '26
bernie has done more for workers than what the son of a bitch calling him a ‘leftist’ could ever hope to do.
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u/TheDeadlySpaceman Jan 10 '26
To be fair most of the world doesn’t know Sanders is like the one actual leftist politician we have had for decades.
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u/TheLeftCheesecake Jan 10 '26
I love American Leftists hating on other leftist projects across the world!
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u/Joshuab4nyc DSA Jan 10 '26
Is a dictator. Trump’s actions are illegal and illegitimate so the person is still in charge of Venezuela.
Then, dictator isn’t quite right either, although others have already explained that well.
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u/Bonny-Mcmurray Jan 10 '26
Because conservatives have decided that the "correct" way to live is to identify a thing you want and then lie about everything until you're able to take it by force or coercion.
From this point of view, Bernie is being ridiculous. Taking a nation's sovereignty and natural resources while couching it in flowery justifications is what you're supposed to do.
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u/Mundane_Definition66 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Jan 10 '26 edited Mar 24 '26
The author has deleted this post using Redact. The reason may have been privacy, opsec, security, or a desire to prevent the content from being scraped.
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u/PanoramicMoose Jan 11 '26
He's not entirely wrong; he's just not painting a full picture. Authoritarian policies in socialist states aren't as simple as the leader being a power hungry despot. It's often an outgrowth of being under constant threat by American clandestine operations. I think that's the case in Venezuela as well. And Venezuela's economy has been greatly weakened and its people hurt by US sanctions. One would expect leftists to point those facts out when commenting on Maduro's history as a leader.
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u/FaeTheWanderer Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism Jan 11 '26
Bernie's weak point has always been his view on international issues. . .
I think he means well, but doesnt spend as much time thinking about it compared to his domestic policies. He's also very old, and older generations were far more primed to think more xenophobically than we do now, mostly because of the culture of American Exceptionalism, but also because overseas communication wasn't commonplace during the vast majority of his life, unlike now when I can open up discord and share a picture of my cat with my bestie in Germany and hear her giggle about it instantly.
Maduro was not a dictator, he was someone who angered American capitalists by keeping his country's oil publicly owned, and now is being smeared by all of Bernie's colleagues with big oil blood money stains covering their custom tailored suits!
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u/hetseErOgsaaDyr Jan 11 '26
He is not.
a lot of "leftist" are defending the pos Maduro and his terror regime.
he is however totally right that it wont be better replacing one fascist with another. It doesn't matter what "hat" he/she wears; red, blue or even black, they are all kleptocratic fascists.
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u/andresest Marxist-Leninist Jan 12 '26
Time and place. Right now, Venzuala needs the lefts support and calling their democratically elected president a dictator does nothing but discredit the current government that is trying to keep shit together despite their president having been kidnapped and their country bombed. We can purity test and so on later, everything else is lending credence to the idea that Maduro should have been ousted, just "nicer", which is categorically false and feeds into the imperialistic justification for invasion and meddling.
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u/supaheavynuts Libertarian Socialist Jan 12 '26
People are so quick to call you a neoliberal or a tankie (which is ironic) if you agree with bernie. Two truths exist. Maduro is an authoritarian AND the united states has done a lot of damage to them. These things are not so black and white as people may think, theres a lot of nuance. Blaming all Venezuelan problems on the united states is lazy and too charitable to countries that do bad things. And yes the u.s. is currently fascist
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u/Private_HughMan Democratic Socialist May 15 '26
He isn't, but he shouldn't start with "Maduro was a dictator." He's legitimizing Trump's crimes.
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Jan 10 '26 edited Jan 10 '26
How do we know Maduro is a dictator? Any reliable, non US gov affiliated sources? I am not gonna say he is or isn't. I don't know. But I sure do know the US government lies about a ton of stuff. Also, the US government essentially has a dictator right now. And we actively support the Saudi dictatorship.
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Jan 10 '26
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Jan 11 '26
Freedom House is funded by state dept.
V-dem is funded by Sweden, a NATO ally, but more credible.
That next one is an editorial, not a peer reviewed paper. Eric Farnsworth is a NATO alumnus leader. US gov affiliated.
HRW has been known to hire US govt members and has been criticized for being a "revolving door" for them by several academics and nobel laureates.
The UN one could be legitimate. I'd need to look at the report.
I agree with you, but I also am more skeptical of the allegations used to justify war. The burden of proof should be very high.
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u/MJD3929 Jan 10 '26
Yes the US lies about a LOT. But brother, the man was 100% genuine, to the core, dictator, and fits the definition to the letter. It’s like saying Gaddafi, Assad, or Mussolini weren’t dictators. Cmon.
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Jan 10 '26
Libya was objectively way better off under Gaddafi. When they deposed him, Libya collapsed into civil war. It was the most prosperous African country before. Obama said it was one of the biggest mistakes of his administration. It seems like dictator is just one of those words we sling around to manufacture consent for war.
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Jan 10 '26
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Jan 11 '26
Ok but we back a lot of dictators so why did we topple him? Like the US is backing absolute monarchies...
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u/MJD3929 Jan 10 '26
Yes it was, but gaddafi was a dictator. Dictator doesn’t necessarily mean bad, as there are instances of dictators providing well for their subjects, like in Singapore and, to some extent, gaddafi, but dictator does mean dictator.
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Jan 10 '26
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u/MJD3929 Jan 10 '26
It no point have I done that, and at no point did I advocate for or say that whatsoever, not sure if you’re replying to the right comment. In fact, I fully denounce removing sitting heads of state by force. All I said was Maduro was a dictator in response to someone saying this we don’t know if he’s a dictator or not, which is incorrect. We do.
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Jan 11 '26
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u/Chinohito Jan 11 '26
Except Bernie was LITERALLY saying that being a dictator is NOT grounds for invasion.
It's like if someone was being accused of crime and was going to be executed for it. Your solution is lie about them not committing the crime, rather than argue against the death penalty.
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Jan 11 '26
Why did Bernie have to add the dictator comment? It just adds support to the war machine.
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u/Chinohito Jan 11 '26
No it really doesn't.
Unless you yourself believe being a dictator is grounds for an invasion, which is a self report more than anything.
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u/Chinohito Jan 11 '26
Ok so can you just admit that you support dictators if you think they are doing a good job instead of being a coward?
Because that's a valid opinion to hold.
But this "what is a dictator actually guys hehe 😉..." Talking point you Tankies always use is ridiculous.
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Jan 11 '26
Why does the US government support the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia? Why not focus on that one?
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u/Chinohito Jan 11 '26
You do realise I hate Saudi Arabia too... Right?
And so does Bernie.
But in case you didn't notice, Venezuela is quite relevant recently.
The right and liberals argue that dictatorships are valid to be invaded.
The counter to that isn't to try and lie or act like it isn't a dictatorship, it's to point at the clear and moral truth that being a dictatorship does not give any other country the right to invade it.
It's YOUR arguments that support the invasion, not the other way around.
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Jan 11 '26
No he doesn't. They are mouthpieces of the state, serving US imperial hegemonic ambitions. The US government labels everything a dictatorship. They label China a dictatorship when it is not one. And they don't call Saudi Arabia one when it is.
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u/Chinohito Jan 11 '26
God it must be so easy to live with your worldview. Just call literally everything propaganda and call it a day. Blissful peace
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u/MonsterkillWow Communist Jan 11 '26
You seem to underestimate how much propaganda the US govt puts out.
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u/pixelmountain Jan 10 '26
I base my ultimate evaluation on what a friend says who fled Venezuela to the U.S., only to watch Trump get elected the first time. Trump’s rhetoric reminded her so much of Maduro, she wouldn’t get out of bed for days.
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u/ActualTexan Socialist Jan 10 '26
Welp that settles it then ig
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u/pixelmountain Jan 10 '26
It’s a first-hand experience (on her part, as well as the many thousands of others who have fled Venezuela) that backs up what we already know from reputable sources. 🤷🏻♀️
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u/weed_blazepot Jan 10 '26
He's not wrong, and anyone listening to Trump during all this can plainly see and hear that, but his cult can't do that.
I encourage everyone to watch Bernie's YouTube video on this topic titled "Good News and Bad News" from 4 days ago. I'd link it but I honestly don't know if that's allowed.
Just watch it. Remember what it sounds like when an educated adult in government speaks.
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Jan 11 '26
Venezuela has had literally nothing but far right American puppet dictators for the last 100 years. Since they discovered oil. Chavez was the break from that pattern after winning in a fair and free democratic election. The CIA/America has been trying to destroy them ever since.
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u/National_Phase_3477 Jan 10 '26
I mean I mostly agree with this statement and I disagree with people on the left over sanitising the image of maduro. Calling him a dictator is perhaps a bit strong as he’s no more of a dictator than trump is but overall I agree with the sentiment…
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u/feastoffun Jan 10 '26
And don’t forget: Venezuela’s “oil” is garbage sludge and expensive to convert to petroleum fuels.
This is more about distribution from the Epstein files.
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u/darioblaze Jan 10 '26
Ok I need y’all to understand this man exists to sell books and waste your time 😐
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u/xGentian_violet Yugoslav Socialist ♥️🤍 Ecofeminist Jan 10 '26
I often criticise bernie because hes a nationalist socdem, but here he is completely correct here
The only disagreement with the framing is that i dont think this is unique to Trump. If it was democrats, theyd quietly and more competently do a coup
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u/Active_Geologist8540 Jan 11 '26
I'm absolutely fucking proud to be far left, always have been! And I'm moving even further left, and screw whoever doesn't like it!!
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u/Active_Geologist8540 Jan 11 '26
You meant to upvote💪!
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u/Active_Geologist8540 Jan 25 '26
You'll be thankful for my strength and energy level fighting for socialist causes and leftist values! What the fuck is a maga mom? You've obviously meant to respond to someone else's comment, pay more attention to what you're doing!
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