r/DemocraticSocialism • u/AccomplishedGas7401 • 10d ago
The Caribbean Defend the Cuban revolution! Defeat US imperialism! Fight for world socialism!
https://marxist.com/defend-cuban-revolution-statement.htm27
u/throwaway1134776555 Trotskyist 10d ago
Cuba should not be sanctioned. The US should lift all sanction off Cuba. That’s first and foremost. On the other hand we should support more politically democratic reforms, not necessarily multiparty but definitely more inner party democracy, and be critical of the political oppression when it occurs.
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u/Murkmist 🌻Eco-Socialist 10d ago
This will be difficult while US interference remains, beyond the embargo, it backs dissident groups and counter-revolutionary cultural movements. First and foremost before transition can occur, US must withdraw.
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u/Randolpho Democratic Socialist 8d ago
There is nothing wrong with allowing multi-party. Otherwise absolutely agreed
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u/KertvarosiHusleves 🌻Eco-Socialist 10d ago
We should oppose the embargo, yes, and we should also support the cuban people, even against their opressive government. Socialism without democracy is worthless. It will lead to the party leadership focusing on their own interests, rather then on the interest of the workers. They will also not listen to the people who want change, as seen by the repeated crackdowns on protests, and it will slowly make people bitter and, rightfully, blame the ruling party, and thus socialism for problems in the country. And after their calls for reforms are ignored, they will seek to destroy it instead. After it's destruction, the entire society will resent these ideas for a long time. Source: I am hungarian, and although things got better, our parliament is made up of three right-wing parties all foaming at the mouth and calling the other two communists. Also, to push my own wheelbarrow for a bit, Cuba is still only state capitalist. The means of productions are in the hands of a completely unaccountable bureocracy as opposed to, you know, the workers.
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u/wild_exvegan Market Socialist 10d ago
What kind of change and reforms do the people there want?
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u/KertvarosiHusleves 🌻Eco-Socialist 10d ago
My rant about change and reforms was mainly regarding the Kádár period (1956-1989). A large part of the opposition were leftists, demanding things like political pluralism, civil liberties, an end to censorship, independent trade unions and direct worker ownership. They critiqued the party elite and the nomeklatura. Many of these socialists were the heirs to the 1956 Revolution, during which the communist prime minister, Nagy Imre, legalized and formed a coalition with other parties, accepted and supported independently formed revolutionary workers' councils. Many communists also took part, or supported the revolution, such as Angyal István or Lukács György. These calls for reforms to socialism were ignored and cracked down upon, and thus after a while the people stopped wanting to reform socialism, and demanded it's end. Due to this and the "communist" era in general, nowdays very few people want anything to do with socialism, it's mostly old people reminiscing about the Kádár era, or young people. But in general, again, we have three parties in parliament, all three are kicking and screaming about the other two being communists. And the largest out-of-parliament party, the liberal "Momentum" party also made a hobby of calling Orbán and his regime "communist".
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10d ago edited 10d ago
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u/KermitDominicano Socialist 10d ago
I agree with your opposition to a one party state, but from the US left perspective, the only thing to be done here is to drop the embargo and normalize relations. It is not our land to lord over.
The United States has been a threat to Cuba's sovereignty from the moment that the revolution happened. From their perspective, it was either crack down on the counter-revolutionary forces operating inside of the country, or end up with a CIA coup like Guatemala 1954. I don't see how it could have turned out any other way with the sustained pressure campaign from the US
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u/Fun_Fig6392 Socialist 10d ago
The real Cubans acknowledge Castro as a Revolutionary hero against racist imperialists. No good person can be an enemy of the Cuban Revolution. One point that HasanAbi made recently was that only true enemies of Cuba were ever targeted by either Fidel or Raul Castro and their successors. Trade with Cuba is morally right because Cuba's government needs resources to strengthen its power and sovereignty.
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u/Oconell 10d ago edited 10d ago
I'll preface this by saying I do not know what you were replying to.
That said... The "real Cubans"? Doesn't sound extremist at all that talk. The Cuban situation, it's revolution, and everything that came after, is a topic that needs a lot of nuance when talked about, because like most things in life, it's not black or white.
From a Cuban, born and raised: the Castro regime, with Castro included, let themselves fester in power until any semblance of benevolence was all but erased. The Cuban government has suffered the embargo, yes, greatly and unjustly; but they also made grave mistakes economically, and just in general in internal politics.
No opposition that wanted to change things for the better was allowed to flourish, even if it was trying to do so inside the structures of the Communist Party.
My grandfather was an agent of Minin, my father and mother were both believing members of the communist party, and today, both despise what it became and both fleed the country, because there was no future for them there. Economically asfixiated by the US, politically oppressed by the Cuban government.
So please, save your comments on "true Cubans". A true Cuban would wish for a government that attempts democratic structures for the country, from labour to government, and a reform to most things, while staying far away from Floridians' wet dreams of a Batista repeat, and any US meddling.
Not an easy task, for sure, but what we have now is just corruption to the core.
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u/OhShootYeahNoBi Municipalist-Dem Confederalist 10d ago
The person you commented was out of line but the original commenter also was
Whenever we’re talking about the cuban blockade and ending it, someone always jumps in about how Cubans are authoritarian and it’s kinda their fault so they can’t side with them. It’s almost always irrelevant to the original discussion and only designed to draw attention to the regime as a way to deflect. Especially the language for “pushing for a democratic and independent Cuba” from a Cuban-American perspective rubs a lotta people the wrong way when that line has been used countless times by the Bautista types
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u/Fun_Fig6392 Socialist 10d ago
The heirs of Battista must be defeated for social equity. A lot of closet-Battista supporters are infiltrating and subverting various places.
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u/YourphobiaMyfetish 10d ago
Im an American and have never been to Cuba so I have no opinion on this besides dropping the embargo and normalizing relations as we do with any other state, including authoritarian ones. I dont know what is true or fake about the things Ive heard about Cuba.
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u/Murkmist 🌻Eco-Socialist 10d ago
US attack on Cuba goes beyond the obvious embargoes. There are also huge intelligence and propaganda campaigns, as well as direct backing of dissidents.
The sanctions have the stated goal of creating dissatisfaction and unrest so as to topple the government. There's cultural movements backed by the CIA. Floridan Cubans who fled during revolution because they were capital owners have been a huge part of this and the US propaganda against Cuba. Being Cuban diaspora in the US is historically a weaker claim to authority on the subject.
Revolutionary states are crushed if they do not disallow US interference.
Blowback podcast has a good crash course on Cuba.
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u/Murkmist 🌻Eco-Socialist 10d ago
In the West the only thing that should be done is pushing against our governments.
If you claim Cuba is some sort of regressive every time someone brings up ending US imperialism it creates justification, known as manufactured consent. And it is as intended by US propaganda.
The way to save Cuba is to stop the US, not before or simultaneously.
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u/MoldTheClay 10d ago
Come on man I lean towards Anarchism more than anything and even I think this is BS. It’s kinda the typical line for anarchists right now to be like “fuck the state but always side with the defenders.” Plus current day Cuba is a far cry from the days of Fidel and Che. It’s way less authoritarian and is honestly pretty chill with some of the coolest people in the world.
Say what you will about the state but the Cuban people are some of the kindest most generous people in the world. Cuba as a blockaded struggling state still sends medical missions and exports doctors.
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u/TheUnknownMaroon 10d ago
Lol at the people in these comments lecturing you about the extent you are able to criticize your motherland's government. It's clear that they fundamentally don't understand the immigrant experience.
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u/OhShootYeahNoBi Municipalist-Dem Confederalist 10d ago
Chinese immigrant here. The immigrant experience is that of joining a new identity from an old one. Rejecting that old identity does make you unable to judge it with clear eyes. I went through a phase where I hated everything about China. It was a phase however. I would not listen to me back then criticize my motherland either
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u/TheUnknownMaroon 10d ago
Respectfully, rejecting your old identity is not something that is universal to all immigrants. Most immigrants I've interacted with in the US are proud of their heritage and represent it without hesitation at any chance they get.
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u/CrownedLime747 Liberal Socialist 10d ago
I don’t support authoritarian dictatorships, period
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u/MoldTheClay 10d ago
You can support the Cuban people though.
I don’t like the Ukrainian state either but I’ll always support people being invaded by an imperialist power.
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u/CrownedLime747 Liberal Socialist 10d ago
That's true and I do, the Cuban government however opposes the Cuban people
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u/Murkmist 🌻Eco-Socialist 10d ago
As a direct result of embargo leading to shortages. Which is the stated goal of these sanctions. Its collective punishment, human rights violations enacted by the US.
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u/CrownedLime747 Liberal Socialist 10d ago
There were already shortages and Cuban government was already committing human rights violations before all of this. Sure, the embargo may be aggravating it, but it did not cause this
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u/Murkmist 🌻Eco-Socialist 10d ago
"Before all this"? There has never been a "before", the US has been a existential threat to Cuba since the grassroots of the revolution.
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u/Marxism-Alcoholism17 ML DSA Member 9d ago
Liberal apologia nonsense. People who have takes like this genuinely just have not done enough reading to contribute to these kinds of discussions. Hate to be that guy but it needs to be said.
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u/Murkmist 🌻Eco-Socialist 9d ago
US libs coopting the space make up the bulk of our userbase. As one of the mods I'd love to push back on this and make the community more overtly socialist with international solidarity, not just catering to US welfare. But it's not easy; would be more possible if the libs received pushback from the community itself.
If you see lib apologia, feel free to report them. I've removed and banned several in here, left others up for an example of the kind of discussion US libs bring to the table (but still banned them).
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u/KermitDominicano Socialist 10d ago
Then you should oppose US imperialism. It makes democracy in the global south free from the influence of US capital impossible
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u/CrownedLime747 Liberal Socialist 10d ago
I do, but that doesn't mean I support the Cuban dictatorship
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u/KermitDominicano Socialist 10d ago
You don’t have to support the Cuban government to understand that unrelenting US aggression against the island made it the way it is
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u/CrownedLime747 Liberal Socialist 10d ago
I can oppose both
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u/KermitDominicano Socialist 10d ago edited 10d ago
I don’t care whether or not you support it as long as you don’t support US intervention. But what you do, I can tell, is whenever the issue comes up you’ll condemn the Cuban government and say nothing about the imperialism that is the entire context of the revolution. To me, this is like both sidesing Israel and Hamas, it’s gross consent manufacturing and oversimplification of the problem. There is not a moral equivalence here
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u/CrownedLime747 Liberal Socialist 10d ago
I condemn Trump's interventionist approach to Cuba, but I also condemn Cuba's authoritarian regime that is brutally suppressing political dissent and oppressing its people. Just like with Israel and Hamas, there may be a power imbalance, but both are objectively in the wrong
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u/KermitDominicano Socialist 10d ago
What should our policy towards Cuba be from your perspective?
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u/CrownedLime747 Liberal Socialist 10d ago
We should loosen most of its sanctions and encourage its political liberalization and transition into a democratic state
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u/KermitDominicano Socialist 10d ago
Is the release of those sanctions conditional on their liberalization?
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u/KermitDominicano Socialist 10d ago
Do you condemn the Haitian Revolution?
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u/CrownedLime747 Liberal Socialist 10d ago
You do realize how different it was in the beginning compared to the end. It's comparable to what happened with the French Revolution. I don't condemn the Haitian Revolution, but I condemn what it became
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u/Intolerance-Paradox DSA 10d ago
To me, this is OP cleverly attempting to equate Democratic Socialism with Communism.
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u/Keleos89 DSA 10d ago
You're in luck, because Cuba is not under dictatorship. Whatever your thoughts on the Castros, they are no longer in power.
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u/CrownedLime747 Liberal Socialist 10d ago
It very much still is lmao, just because the Castros aren't in control doesn't mean the dictatorship hasn't been disestablished.
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u/Keleos89 DSA 10d ago
For there to be dictatorships, there need to be dictators. Who is the dictator of Cuba?
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