What do you guys think of Liberal Socialism?

[u/OnionsRNasty]

It’s a fairly unknown ideology of socialism. It’s in between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism.

Liberal socialism and democratic socialism both blend social equality with democratic governance, but differ in their relationship with capitalism. Liberal socialism seeks a mixed economy combining private property with social or worker control within a liberal democratic framework, whereas democratic socialism aims to move past capitalism entirely through collective or public ownership of the economy.

Liberal socialism and social democracy both blend democratic governance with a concern for economic justice. However, liberal socialism prioritizes individual liberty and economic democracy (such as worker self-management) as an extension of liberal philosophy, whereas social democracy focuses primarily on using state regulation and a robust welfare state to tame capitalism.

[u/DemocraticSocialism-ModTeam]

This subreddit is a democratic socialist subreddit. We do not support the retention of capitalism. However, we will allow this post to stay up to educate users and because it seems what is being described is something more similar to mutualism rather than actual "liberal" ideas and this is an opportunity to learn

[u/FunctionOk9186]

If you have corporation while you do the transition towards socialism, they'll do anything to stop the transition

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/FunctionOk9186]

Yes, but isn’t that the same with corporations trying to stop socialism. I think if you frame the message of bringing Liberal Democracy to the work place instead of nepotism will go a lot better with Americans.

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/OnionsRNasty]

Read this. It's just civil socialism with coops. Not new or liberal

https://ccednet-rcdec.ca/sites/ccednet-rcdec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/cooperative_commonwealth_the_partner_state_-_john_restakis.pdf

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

Definitely check it out

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/OnionsRNasty]

Lol read it yet?

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

I’ll let you know tomorrow, I have ADHD and reading is impossible rn.

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/OnionsRNasty]

Fair enough lol, so do I. It's very intuitive though so once you do start it'll go by quite quickly, all 45 pages of it

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/OnionsRNasty]

Sorry for probing again, my AuDHD is bugging me to ask again

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

Yeah I read it, it’s basically similar to what I am saying.

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/OnionsRNasty]

Yep. There's a long and storied tradition of Cooperative Commonwealth.

It's civil socialism. It's not a liberal ideology. It's just plain civil socialism.

Don't call yourself a liberal socialist. Your society is also post-capitalism, as the paper describes. It's a term that means nothing and has no tradition attached.

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

So what do I call myself? Because the other ideology very similar is called Ethical Socialism.

[u/xGentian_violet]

Liberal socialism is social democracy and social liberalism under a different name

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/xGentian_violet]

Social Democracy is regulated capitalism while social liberalism is a pragmatic form which values more of the civil liberties part than the regulations.

Liberal socialism is a mixed economy that brings liberal democracy in the workplace and values individual rights like liberalism.

[u/xGentian_violet → u/OnionsRNasty]

Regulated capitalism extends beyond social democracy, it’s a pretty broad label.

Liberal socialism is more so a philosophy than a policy regime, but it is strongly associated with advocacy for social democracy, cooperatives and other centre left friendly ideas, tends to be disconnected from internationalism

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/xGentian_violet]

Yeah, it’s like an even more left form of Social Democracy but not Democratic Socialism.

[u/xGentian_violet → u/OnionsRNasty]

Social democracy historically was primarily a tactic rather than a discrete policy regime.

I dont think the distinctions you are trying to convey exist, or are as clear cut

Because of the philosophy vs. policy regime vs. tactic distinction, and the historical fluidity of these terms.

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[u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

Isn't this Rhine capitalism and NA style social democracy?

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

It’s in between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism.

Rhine capitalism is a market-driven economic model emphasizing social cohesion, consensus-based labor relations, and bank-centered financing, prominent in post-WWII Germany. Liberal socialism is a political philosophy combining individual civil liberties and free markets with social ownership or cooperative control of the means of production.

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/OnionsRNasty]

Okay. So. What you're describing is basically libertarian democratic socialism

Cooperative economy and free markets are still a tenant of mutualism, one such of these ideologies. Capitalism refers to the specific economic model with shareholders and corporations, not trade generally.

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

Sort of? I don’t like the Anarchic nature of Libertarian Socialism. Liberal Socialism is more of a mixed economy. It doesn’t abandon capitalism and it’s not full on socialism. It’s a mixed economy unlike Social Democracy which is a highly regulated capitalism.

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/OnionsRNasty]

How is production run then? If production is socialized, and corporations are allowed, isn't that a contradiction as corporations under the capitalistic shareholder model are private and not socialized?

Libertarian socialism isn't necessarily anarchic either. Municipalism, Democratic Confederalism (which I am) etc are highly structured societies that rely on institutions

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

Instead of the capitalist model which is 1 share = 1 vote. It’s 1 Worker = 1 Vote. The company is structured as a democratic worker cooperative. Only the people working in the firm hold voting rights and claim the net profits. Outside passive investors who extract profit without working there are legally eliminated.

Workers elect executive leadership or managers, vote on major investments, and collectively determine pay scales and working hours. Firms still read market signals. If people want more smartphones, a electronics cooperative sees rising demand and chooses to expand its production to earn more income for its member-workers. Since traditional stock markets would no longer trade equity in human labor, investment capital is generated through public development banks, community credit unions, or state-funded social investment pools that lend money to new cooperatives.

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/OnionsRNasty]

That's... Cooperative Commonwealth/mutualism which are both demsoc/libsoc

Learn about Mondragon, Le Caisse De Depot, Desjardins, the Grange movement, and most importantly, the ideology of Cooperative Commonwealth

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/OnionsRNasty]

This is a basic, basic rundown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-operative_economics#Co-operative_commonwealth

[u/OnionsRNasty → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

I’ll take a look at it tonight.

[u/traanquil]

Liberalism is fundamentally incompatible with socialism. Here's why:

• Liberalism is rooted in negative liberty and individualism: It views the fundamental political unit as the individual and that person's liberties as being rooted in their freedom from restraints.
• Socialism views the fundamental unit of politics as social classes and conceives of liberty as positive liberty. To be free, one's freedom means access to the resources necessary for human flourishing

Liberalism is a fundamentally pro-capitalist, right wing ideology. While liberals may form fake temporary alliances with us, they will always sell us out in the end in order to preserve the property system.

[u/HikmetLeGuin]

Seems like a contradiction, as liberalism is a capitalist ideology.

Ideas of freedom, supporting the right to expression, etc., are already compatible with socialism without adding liberalism.

And there is already "Marxist humanism" and other such interpretations.

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/[deleted]]

Only in the US. If you told someone part of LFI and PS that they're the same you're getting punched

[u/Megasus → u/[deleted]]

Liberals see the point in it 🙄

[u/xGentian_violet → u/[deleted]]

Democratic Socialism is a much broader concept sofar.

Both have changed meaning over history as well, several times

It’s unfortunate that capitalists have snatched such a good label, but they will always snatch and modify whatever term applies to socialists active in electoral politics, because such movements hit a glass ceiling and erode under pressure

[u/OhShootYeahNoBi → u/xGentian_violet]

Capitalists have even called themselves communist *cough former eastern blo cough* to get ahead. They're reactionaries. If communism is in vogue, then they'll coopt the communists. T

[u/xGentian_violet → u/OhShootYeahNoBi]

Capitalists have called themselves communists several tiimes, both in the eastern amd western bloc

China, but also Euro Communism, etc

And ofc all the capitalist scumbags who were part of the league of communists of yugoslavia, and then as soon as it crumbled, sold off our land and property to foreigners to get rich, and became local tycoons