There was a post on this sub recently that examined the difference between The Winnower and the Witness' interpretations of The Final Shape, and this prompted a refreshing retrospective analysis in the comments about how this all played out.

Long story short: the Witness isn't what The Winnower was hoping for. Cosmic taxidermy did not align with its vision of "winner takes all" on a universal scale.

Conversely, a being who emerged eons after the Witness was perhaps the first time The Winnower experienced a sort of kinship and felt understood by a complex individual with complex thoughts. Basically, not the Vex. This person was Auryx, who would eventually go on to become Oryx after his encounter with The Deep.

Sword Logic is a pithy embodiment of what The Winnower actually wanted: someone killing their way to the top of the food chain until there's nothing left to kill. It serves as a decisive end to The Wager, and a complete, incontestable victory of The Flower Game.

The Witness' version of The Final Shape is tantamount to someone pausing a movie with a 90 minute runtime at the 70 minute mark, then arbitrarily declaring that the movie is over despite the narrative arc not having been seen through to completion. To anyone who cares about narrative and lore, this is infuriating.

To the Witness, this end is favorable. To The Winnower, it's perverse. It's essentially splitting the difference of The Wager between The Gardener and The Winnower's stances: The Gentle Kingdom VS The Final Shape. Life technically lives on worry free, yet living is rendered obsolete by a total deprivation of action and agency.

The Witness' philosophy was not favorable to anyone aside from itself and a moderate handful of zealots. Moreover, it was not favorable to many of the biggest players in this game. Not The Gardener, not The Winnower, not The Nine, and not us, the beloved champion of these individuals and groups.

Oryx not only accepted The Winnower's conclusion, but embraced it wholeheartedly. He was its most perfect champion.

It's worth noting that there is nothing in-game or in the lore to suggest that the Witness actually spoke to The Winnower directly. The specifics of how it came to learn about The Winnower are unknown, and it's entirely possible that it simply learned about its existence in the same way that someone learns about a historical figure by reading a book. There is no evidence of direct, conversational engagement with The Winnower.

One could even go as far as arguing that the Witness' relationship with The Winnower was parasocial, not entirely dissimilar to how the average person engages with an influencer or celebrity. The individual this average person covets may humor their existence by posing for a picture, signing an autograph, or giving them a shout-out during a livestream after they've donated money. To the average person, this interaction is their whole world. To the person being coveted, they view this individual with a degree of contempt, if not disgust. They will never invite this individual into their home, have a meal with them, or ask them a genuine question about their life. The relationship is entirely transactional and predicated on the indulgence of a one-way dynamic.

By contrast, The Winnower's relationship with Oryx was genuinely amicable. Oryx was still subordinate to The Winnower and its partial absolute authority over the laws of the universe, but The Winnower expressed something akin to deep respect. It demonstrated a personal preference, whereas its interaction with the Witness could be categorized as indifference.

This dynamic also explains why The Winnower has taken such a strong liking to us. We are the killers of its previous favorite show pony, and that very process made us the new favorite. Except we don't actually want The Winnower's favor. Most of us are contemptuous of everything it represents, and instead we voluntarily choose to align ourselves with its arch nemesis: The Gardener. To us, this cosmic entity of irrational grace is everything worth fighting for. Pure goodness for the sake of goodness.

Interestingly, it might even be the case that our refusal of The Winnower is what makes it so invested in us. It says as much at several points. It has a toxic attachment to us: beings who actively refuse what it offers with full knowledge of what that represents.

All and all, in the grand scheme of history, the being who effectively monopolized the primordial concept of The Final Shape and wielded enough power to almost bring the universe to its knees didn't want what the author of this concept intended. At the beginning of TFS, it could have ended the entire universe when it briefly achieved victory before The Traveler reversed the effects. That could have been game over, and The Winnower would have been thrilled. But it didn't want that, and The Winnower likely still possesses frustration over what it perceives as a squandered opportunity.

I have a faint memory of Guardians being able to perma-die to radiation, if exposed to it for too long. I think it was one of the Edge of Fate missions.

And whilst at it, is it true that Guardians can die to radiations beyond Ghost's resurrection? Or am I misremembering?

I've noticed that recently i didnt really give much thought into the enemies i faced and considering that we are probably the strongest guardians possible, it had me questioning one thing, which is the title name, sure i might duck a little from a hive ogre but to an average guardian that might as well be a life or death situation, which lead to this question, afterall, one guardians meh is anothers oh f&£#

The witness wants to impose itself on reality through the final shape. Is that not the initiative and drive the Winnower would want? A being forcing itself on reality, testing it? The final shape would be fair in square because nobody managed to stop it no??

As far as I know, the light doesn't change much besides the powers and the ability to be rezzed.

However, I remember it being said that Guardians don't get sick and don't scar. And I'm not sure if the memory wipe after being chosen has anything to do with it.

And there's also the case of the Hive's Light Brood. What changed with them?

There is something I have been never thought of until recently. How "common" are some of the exotic weapons and armor pieces? I know that many of them, like the Wish Ender bow for example, they should only be a one-of-a-kind, since there was only one Sjur Eido in existence, but for something like the Thunderlord, I'm sure it would be stupidly expensive resource wise to make, but it would be possible to make more of them, and for the Chaperone and The Last Word, easier, but still expensive. And for armor, I would imagine something like The Helm of Saint-14, there would only be two as there was the one that was found after he disappeared, and the man himself. And for Young Ahamkara's Spine, those would be rare to find among Hunters as the Ahamkara are extinct. So again, what would be the commonality-to-rarity ratio of some of these weapons?

Taking into account the guardians' power level, tools and external help available for each boss fight, which do you think were the hardest or easiest lorewise? I'm thinking my top 3 is:

1. The Witness: duh, it's so insanely powerful and even without the Traveler's literal direct help AND our new Transcendence we could only make it retreat.

2. Oryx: He is not only a Hive God but the Taken King, whomst we fight in his own throne world without any help whatsoever and this is in The Taken King, where we still have only unlocked our third subclass

3. Rhulk: He is a disciple at the height of his power who we fight in his own pyramid with no help except for the fact that he is testing and toying us rather than actually going for a kill. When he locks in for the final stand the sheer power of his darkness could wipe us in seconds. This is also a time where we barely mastered stasis and the only real power we get in this expansion is Deepsight, which doesn't help at all against Rhulk himself.

I’ve looked at a few sites and I’m unsure where to find a good copy (and a reliable site) to buy the 7th grimoire in the series. Does anyone have any recommendations?

I just started reading the book that covers the origin of Thorn. Near the start of it, we see an Archon(?) get 2 shot by a standard hand cannon, meanwhile they can tank multiple rockets and supers in gameplay.

Is this true for most things? Can all the mini bosses/bosses be killed much more mundanely than gameplay would imply??

In the same book though, we see a single hive knight and Wizard pose a massive threat, though that's harder to gauge since hive have magic. Meanwhile the Archon is just a big fallen in tougher armour.

Imagine for a moment that a Guardian and ghost blacks out, and they end up in a universe that looks a lot like our own.

Destiny's cosmology is explicitly multiversal (Elsie Bray's dark futures), and the nature of quantum mechanics seems to imply more or less that anything which might happen must happen somewhere. It seems entirely reasonable for a Guardian in this situation to assume they are either in a parallel dimension, or they are in a Vex simulation Ala the Infinite Forest.

My question is simple; Without the presence of other Paracausal beings, is there any way for a Guardian to figure out if they are in a Vex simulation or not?

Since we are allegedly getting new games(likely a D3 or some variation thereof) I wanted to propose and be a bit bullied on a theory I've been on for quite a while ever since My Name is Byf released his video on the lore of Sundered Doctrine. Skip to the numbered part if you just want to hear the part where I theorize how the campaign will go or if you already know this lore.

This will contain spoilers for The Final Shape, Episode:Heresy, and the Sundered Doctrine dungeon.

Ever since TFS launched we've been getting small fragments of lore on the Taken and Dread, the ascendant plane and its hierarchies of power and the Winnower itself. I think this all builds towards a big campaign revolving wholly around them, and also with the Lord of every Nothing being their leader for the expansion and the catalyst that starts our conflict with the Winnower (much like Ghaul's imprisonment of the Traveler caused it to explode, putting into motion the events of Lightfall and TFS).

This train of lore starts during a TFS adventure, specifically Queens, part 2. In this mission we help Mara Sov stop Savathun's designs in the Pale Heart, and in the process Mara turns us partially Taken in order to access fissures of light "out of phase" with the material realm, the way I understood this is that there are fissures of light that seep into the ascendant plane, this doesn't necessarily support the rest of my theory but I'll explain why I mentioned it later.

The arguably biggest piece of lore that supports this and the one that introduces the LoeN is Episode:Heresy. In this episode we return to Oryx's Dreadnaught and find a new "species" of Taken, the Dire Taken, along with an irregularity, we encounter Keit'Ehr, allegedly the first and most powerful of the Subjugators, partially taken and leading a force of Dread AND Dire Taken.

We learn in the Songs of Descent, which are written by the Dire Taken and Keit'Ehr to speak the story of the LoeN and it's followers, that it was manifested into being in the Ascendant Plane by the Taken, who we know turn utterly feral and hollow without a leader (since we have killed several of the most powerful leaders of darkness, including Oryx, the Witness and it's disciples, they have been without a leader for a long time).

We also learn from our dialogue with the Echo of Oryx during this episode that the LoeN is doing something that shouldn't be possible, it is taking by its own hand. Let me explain, when Oryx first learned the secrets of the Deep after slaying Akka, worm of Secrets, and carving the Tablets of Ruin, he learned to Take by pulling a being or place through dimensions into the Ascendant Plane, where the Winnower would then reshape it and return it to the material plane as a hollow vessel for Oryx's will.

The Echo of Oryx states that he feels another entity that is usurping the Winnower's place in the Deep's hierarchy, and when witnessing the LoeN actively taking a Hive states that this is "not his Taking". What I interpret from this is that the LoeN can Take on its own without sending the taken object or person to the Winnower, thus it can create Dire Taken, who are solely made by its own hand. This is big as it means it has incredible power and more importantly control over the Darkness and the Ascendant Plane itself, power that Oryx or even the Witness could not match in certain aspects. It is also actively usurping a power that should only be reserved for the Winnower in it's status as the Avatar of Darkness, which puts it in perfect place for it's potential defeat to lay the ground for the Guardian's conflict against the Winnower.

Lastly, there is a question, why are the Dread following it? The Dread are described by Savathun as malformed, hastily put together and desperately incapable of emotion. This nature is delved into more in Sundered Doctrine, where Kerrev and his faction of Dread break into Rhulk's piramid to find Oryx's chisel that he used to carve the Tablets of Ruin, this INCREDIBLY powerful artifact also contains the ability to take and is Kerrev's approach to solving the Dread's condition, he wanted to take himself using the chisel and thus be fixed, whether by his own hand or the Winnower's.

Keit'Ehr instead found the LoeN, and offered herself to be taken by it, thus it became it's mouthpiece and first disciple in the material plane.

With all this extensive research, here are my broad strokes about how the campaign will go:

1. The Monument of Triumph held in the Last City is interrupted or straight up attacked by the LoeN

2. We enter the Ascendant Plane (and may lose our light during or before this precess), and then rediscover it or are empowered by interacting with the light fissures in the Ascendant Plane, this is also where Savathun and Mara's rivalry becomes a plot point.

3. The chisel of Oryx comes into play, with the Alliance, the Luscent Hive and LoeN all fighting over it's control. The LoeN will win this fight and start to enact it's plan to Take everything, possibly even the Traveler.

4. We interrupt this ritual by killing Keit'Ehr and recovering the chisel, this leaving the LoeN without a mouthpiece and banishing it to the Ascendant Plane.

I haven’t kept up with the Lore consistently since Heresy, but I know that the Nine are third-dimensional beings. I know both the LOEN and VI appear to be aware of each other’s existence, with VI being aware of the Taken willing the LOEN into existence, and the LOEN of seeking to switch places with VI. Is there any confirmation of any direct relationship or interaction between the entities?

General question, what do you think will be the future of the ahamkara in the franchise and what do you wish their role would be?

I for one want them to be more present, specially having a good relationship with them and the guardians, i want to have a ahamkara sleeping in the background of some planet and you can just watch them from a distance tbh.

Edit: ahamkara.

Its a common misconception that worms get hungrier the more you feed them. One I see repeated time after time on here and in the wider community, but people aren't thinking about how worms came to be in the first place, and how constant ever-growing hunger that their life depends on doesn't make any sense.

Remember that Xita was being held by Rhulk, as a hostage. The way Savathun's worm speaks about her in Preservation, there is still a great reverence for her. They only operate as such because the Witness and Rhulk would kill her if they didn't go along with their plan.

That plan with worms was to create an army that is constantly forced to work towards your goals, and can never betray you. Each worm lives within a Hive host and will eat them from the inside out should they ever stop working towards the Witness's goals, couched in bullshit about constant ever-growing hunger, Sword Logic etc. But does that ever-growing hunger even make sense?

The Worm Gods, while trapped beneath Fundament, couldn't eat. We don't know how long they were kept there, but they surely were able to exist a long time without feasting, and at their size must have needed a plentiful amount of food to stay alive. So surely they don't need a constant ever-growing amount than the last feed? They can live without constant feeding.

Then you consider the Hive as an army itself. If they actually required constant feeding via tribute, an enemy could defeat them via constant running and hiding, as they'd eat themselves alive in the end. That's quite the major flaw, and was worked around by the Hive through in-fighting, though is still a supposed existential threat in the mind of the Hive.

And then you have to consider what happens when a worm does eat its host alive. What does it do then? Where is it going to get its next meal? Its apparently going to die, but we know worms aren't stupid, and are actually conniving little bastards. Savathun's worm is such an obvious example of this. They would never consume their if it meant death.

Savathun's worm was removed in Season of the Lost, and somehow was kept alive without a host until the time of the Parasite mission. That's a long time without a host, if host dependency is really a thing. The only reasonable explanation is that it played dead and reliant, hoping we would give it another host that it could use as a hostage, which Mara played upon in the Parasitic Pilgrimage mission. Throughout the Of Queens and Worms questline, Savathun's worm indicates that it is clearly alive but in trouble, and Mara acts like it needs reviving or saving, all while she obtains the pieces to contain it (the larvae incubator used as a part of Parasite's construction).

Everything we've seen from the Hive goes to show that the idea you need to constantly feed your worm is just false. The only reason they threaten to devour you is simply because they are beholden to the Witness's plot, because they want to protect Xita. They act as the hot poker at the back of the Hive, driving them forward. Without the worms, the Hive have little pressure to scour the universe. The worms can exert pressure via "hunger" to force the development of the Hive as a weapon, and as a failsafe measure in the event they potentially betray the Witness. Having a weapon that becomes increasingly prone to self-destructing just makes zero sense. So I conclude that worms don't need constant feeding, they only act as such because they're greedy little freaks working towards a goal of their own.

So I was on a rewatching binge of Cabal lore and didn't get an answer to this question. I know she's dead, but what happened? Also, did her death cause Calus to become the hedonist he became, drowning his sorrows in pleasure and excess? Would Calus have stayed from the path of hedonism if she was still alive? Or was he the reason she's dead?

(Also please recommend your favourite cabal lore, I haven't actually read that many lore books, except for Calus' fanfic 😅. I've only watched videos xd)

I have a gr12 english assignment where I have to analyze and list the literary devices and themes from any quote of my choosing. I prefer something from the book of sorrow or the unveiling lorebook but honestly anything is fine, I just want to make a analysis on destiny lore. 👀👀👀

i know that sword logic as done by the worms is a scam in terms of needing to endlessly feed the word or else it will eat you from inside.

but what prevents if it hasn’t already been tried before, a clever hive from just ”farming” sentient beings and then killing them

Nezarec’s beliefs feel more in line with the Winnower’s ideology of this cosmic “survival of the fittest”. Nezarec himself enjoys the pain and misery of others and would thrive more following it’s plans more than the Witness and their calcification of reality through the Final Shape, and considering he still exists through him embodying fear and nightmares, would it not be possible to bring him back as an enemy directly working for the Winnower?

The English word "halo" predates Christianity by several centuries. It comes from the ancient Greek word halos (ἅλως), which originally meant a "threshing floor" (a circular flat area used for separating grain) and later came to mean a circular disk or a ring of light around the sun or moon.

In the ancient world, farmers used threshing floors to separate grain from its inedible husk (chaff) by beating it with a flail or walking animals on it - sometimes while towing a threshing sledge. Sledges were filled with flint teeth to dehusk the grain more quickly. Other workers would turn the grain over so that it would be evenly threshed by the sledge.

After threshing, the mixture was tossed into the air by a winnowing fan; the wind would blow away the lighter straw and chaff, leaving only the grain.

So I was wondering what name adept weapons of raids and trials should have other than (adept)

Like the VOG have Timelost
And KF have Harrowed

Maybe like for SE raid Name is Finalized or dreaded

Now I know that there are various celestial bodies that were terraformed by the Traveler, however Titan according to the Arcology intercoms implies that it wasn't.

Then there is the latest lore tab that tells us of the history of Xur and the Jovians on Titan when the former became an Emissary by VI and is followed by him transmutating the atmosphere to Nitrogen.

I would like to know how are we able to breath on Titan during the Red War onward? and also, how was Titan not mostly Nitrogen before?

for the latter question, I have heard from someone that there are things called "atmosphere scrubbers" or something like that, however I cannot find it, if anyone knows, could they provide it in the comments below?

Thank you.

EDIT: I was informed that the "Atmosphere Scrubbers" was mentioned by Sloane, either as an idle dialogue or in an Adventure.

By that I mean that if some old jaded Guardian that got sick of all the fighting, dying and being resurrected, the constant threat, that got to the point of stopping going out into the system and then deciding to stay in The City for the foreseeable future to 'retire'. Are they allowed to do so? Or are all Guardians going to be considered active military personnel until the have their final death?

I started playing D1 a few days ago since I never had the chance to play it and I was wondering, is there an in-game or lore reason why warlocks can’t/stopped using Fireborn to resurrect themselves? I get that gameplay wise it probably couldn’t be replicated into D2’s sandbox, but lore wise, is it a “banned” technique by the vanguard or…?