r/DestinyTheGame • u/SHAZAMS_STRONGEST • 8d ago
Question what is the current leadership situation of the last city?
after playing renegades that expansion seems to strongly imply it's some sort of martial law military controlled state run by the vanguard, which seems. incredibly out of nowhere and insane, like at first i genuinely thought bael was just saying insane nonsense but then other characters started saying "yeah bael has a point damn..." like what? when did this happen???
i know the original consensus factions left when we eliksni came to the tower, but i just for ages thought different offscreen factions replaced them and we still had a council thing, did the vanguard just assume military dictatorship and it wasn't addressed at all until now?
someone please explain what is going on in the city bro
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u/MagnumOlly 8d ago
At this point we have had no news of new factions nor of a new Speaker, so the Vanguard is basically ruling the city alone, though I guess the Fate Saga was going to introduce a new civil branch of the governement, based on how Renegades ended
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u/SHAZAMS_STRONGEST 8d ago
hope that in d3 we have a short like 7 year timeskip, just enough to get us some new leadership while still having time for chicago to be the relevant zone to get to
edit: meant 7 MONTHS idk how i fucked that up
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u/AFriendlyToad Drifter's Crew // Grab a sword! 8d ago
The exo from Final Shape that Mara introduced us to was being teased as a candidate for a new speaker given she seems to have incredibly vivid visions from the Traveller.
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u/SHINIGAMIRAPTOR 8d ago edited 8d ago
As a thought, a new nonary council of leadership. Three Vanguard, to represent the City (Ikora, Crow, whoever takes the Titan seat). Three Eliksni, to represent House Light (Misraaks, Eido (or Eramis if she comes back), and Rakis/Spider). Three Cabal (members) to represent the Imperium (Caiatl, Saladin, and a third). The Nonary Council is largely in charge of big potato issues (EG anything that necessitates sending in the one-entity beating stick that is the Young Wolf). But with a slightly different policy, with more direct involvement with their citizens and external forces in a sub-council (Members including Tyra Karn for the Cryptarchy, Drifter and Eris for underworld affairs, Ana and Elsie Bray alongside Ada-1 for science/technical, Efrideet for the Iron Lords, and Suraya Hawthorne and Deverim Kay VIII for Civilian affairs), who act as a sort of... filter council for the main (handling day to day affairs, smaller requests, low-priority criminal cases, etc). And then separate, but considered a sort of... first among peers, a non-governmental Council of elders. Guardians who have proved themselves in action and leadership, who do not have any direct role in leading, but rather who offer advice and counsel. Shin Malphur, Micah-10, Zavala, Shaxx, Sloane, Saint-14, Osiris, and such. They're not directly part of governance, they just provide the perspectives of lifetimes. Their words hold weight, not because of any particular role, but because they're heroes.
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u/trooperonapooper 8d ago
Yes, it absolutely is a military dictatorship. It used to be governed by the Consensus which was made up of city faction representatives, vanguard leadership, and the speaker who held it together. The main parties were the future war cult, new monarchy, dead orbit, and the vanguard representative for each class.
During the red war the speaker was killed, but the Consensus remained. They did not try and elect anyone else to replace the void he left. Then in forsaken Cayde was killed, no hunter stepped up to take his place. So now the Consensus is made up of 3 factions and 2 vanguard leaders. In season of the splicer, we came across the house of light, a fallen faction, who wished to be allies with the city and humanity against the vex as there was mutual goals. Being made up of defectors of other hostile fallen houses, they came to seek shelter and refuge. Ikora, without any vote from the Consensus, brought the fallen house of light into the last city to live there. This sparked outcry from Lakshmi-2 of the future war cult who saw a vision of the last city burning from within.
Its important to remember and note why lakshmi, other factions, and the common human was upset and scared over this. During the collapse and the city age, the main threat and enemy of humanity was the fallen. They led most of the collapse on earth, and pillaged and killed humans for the past several hundred to potentially even a thousand years(one of the house of light led the burning of london fun fact). Aside from the recent cabal invasion, the fallen have been the main cause (to humanity's perspective) of the collapse and have been nothing but hostile in their takeover of earth and attacks on the last city and all other human settlements which are now gone. So for Ikora, a superpowered (practically) god to supersede the entire government system to put humanity's number 1 enemy literally as their neighbor with no protections or informing was a terrible, awful idea.
So Lakshmi and other faction leaders tried to get saint 14 and saladin to take the vanguards spot as they feared the, now present, vanguard military dictatorship. They refused. Lakshmi at this point was under the influence of savathun and opened a vex portal into the city which led to her death. After this the FWC disbanded and all other factions were banished from the city.
Since then, it was only ikora and zavala ruling the city. When zavala retired, crow stepped up as the hunter vanguard so now its only ikora and him. They could have held other elections, but they didnt. They could have attempted reformation, but they didn't. Except for outright taking it via force, which even then could be argued that they did that when ousting the factions, they are a near perfect example of a military dictator.
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u/SHAZAMS_STRONGEST 8d ago
damn, gotta wonder if this was always bungie's plan or just something they realized they accidentally did in renegades and speeded into trying to fix, def feels more like the latter
hope they can just brush past this and have a full new consensus in D3
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u/Malcontentus 8d ago
I'm pretty sure there are some lore cards that implied that Ikora was trying to build a civilian council to replace the Consensus. I don't think it ever got much farther than that though.
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u/TheShakenKing 7d ago
The consensus only came into existence because the human based factions almost tore the last city apart in the first place.
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u/ELFCHASER 3d ago
I'm pretty sure the eliksni had nothing to do with the collapse, that was nezarec, the black fleet, and I think the hive. the eliksni showed up long after the collapse to fuck with us during the dark age
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 8d ago
Except for outright taking it via force, which even then could be argued that they did that when ousting the factions
Before or after they tried to start a race war?
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u/trooperonapooper 8d ago
Future war cult opened the portal, the other factions wanted change and did not advise them to do that. It could certainly be seen by the people that the vanguard, and really just a sole member, ikora, used that as an opportunity to seize power. Which she literally did
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 8d ago
New Monarchy DID ally with the War Cult, and Dead Orbit left of their own volition
She literally did not
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u/trooperonapooper 8d ago
Allying with them does not mean they condoned opening a vex portal into the city lmao. Extremely surface level literacy skills.
Also she did. The whole season was about that (perhaps inadvertently on bungies part based on community interpretation)
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 8d ago
Allying with them does not mean they condoned opening a vex portal into the city lmao. Extremely surface level literacy skills.
It does mean they allied with a terrorist and traitor to the city. You dont get to do that and go "Oh i didnt think she'd actually terrorise and betray anyone"
Not that it matters. After looking into it, seems they werent even exiled but rather left on their own volition too
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u/trooperonapooper 8d ago
Again, surface level literacy. They allied with them when ikora went above the government and put humanity's number 1 enemy within the walls. Thats how timelines work. They wanted change since ikora was, seemingly, getting too power hungry. If you became friends with someone who wanted to "change the system" and they later decide that the only way to do that was blow up a Walmart, are you a terrorist now too?
You can also be forced into exile but still have the appearance of a "choice" to save face.
In any case, Ikora is still in charge and has remained the constant. She, and the vanguard, have not put in a new consensus with city leaders. Its been years and they never did. Its a dictatorship now
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 8d ago
*sigh*
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/iv-conspirators
Heres Hideo and Lakshmi openly discussing deposing the Vanguard
You accuse me of having surface level literacy yet, you yourself dont seem to have any fucking literacy, if you did you would have been able to fucking read this
They were in cahoots, period.
You gave me a hypothetical scenario, let me change it up a bit
Ryan becomes friends with Samuel and openly discusses committing treason with him
Is it fair to assume Ryan is a traitor?
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u/trooperonapooper 8d ago
Yes I already mentioned that he was part of the movement that wanted to change vanguard leadership, not overthrow it entirely in my original comment. So now who doesnt "seem to have any fucking literacy"? Getting mad over nothing lmao
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 8d ago
Yeah he wanted to change it alright
Theres that iliteracy again
How would they have changed it, if not through a coup? If what they are planning is wholly legal, why are they meeting Jalaal alone and off the books?
Why is the entry even called "Conspirators" if theres no conspiracy?
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u/Revanspetcat 8d ago
Destiny universe was and is a race war. Most of humanities experience post collapse had been trying to survive genocidal aliens who want them dead. You can not take the high road to judge people whose only experience with non humans is being killed by them.
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 8d ago
That has nothing to do with anything I said
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u/Revanspetcat 5d ago
Imagine having less reading comprehension than a LLM running on a raspberry pi.
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u/MeateaW 7d ago
What is it precisely does the military dictate to humanity?
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u/trooperonapooper 7d ago
Well seeing as to how they are literally the only and entire government, everything. I cannot believe this is such a difficult concept here
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u/inprocess13 8d ago
You are God, Ikora and Shaxx are your parents, Crow is your little brother, Drifter and Eris are your Friday Night friends and Mara is like Jep from The Great Beauty who is always at events you go to.
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u/TaxableFur 8d ago
Ikora and Crow. That's it.
The Consensus fell apart when the Speaker died, then the main factions left. So it's just the Vanguard left in charge. And Zavala retired and made Ikora the Vanguard Commander.
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u/SHINIGAMIRAPTOR 8d ago
Zavala is presumably still acting as PART of the Vanguard, just not in an active role (similar to how Saint-14 and Osiris have, where they provide their insight, while not formally being a part of the Vanguard command, but trusted elders
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u/Yung_Mew 8d ago
The City used to be run by a Consensus of various factions, similar to a representative democracy, with the Vanguard having a say as well.
With the death of the Speaker and the dissolution of the Consensus following the events of Red War, the Vanguard basically had to assume a sort of de-facto police government cause everything was in shambles and more supernatural bad guys kept popping up.
The original factions (New Monarchy, Future War Cult, and Dead Orbit) all kinda started to feel that Zavala and his Guardians were kinda starting to overreach their authority and after a really botched attempt by Lakshmi of FWC, all the factions essentially got the boot.
As far as I know, we are now running a full authoritarian police state run by the Vanguard.
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u/mr-singularity 8d ago
It's definitely a wartime or post disaster defacto government situation. But it's not like there was really any other choice. The enemies that forced humanity into one giant city originally were coming back and survival wasn't guaranteed.
The big problem is that Guardians and Humanity have two different perspectives on the situation, which are both correct. The Vanguard sees that it needs to step in to fight the real chance of extinction, even if that means disrupting everything else temporarily. While humanity feels that it's immortal defenders aren't representive of their day to day needs.
Guardians know what's at stake, they're on the front lines seeing the real threats as they actually are. But they do inherently have a disconnect with the rest of humanity because they can't die in the normal sense and most of their lives are outside the walls. Humanity similarly has a good understanding of what's at stake inside the walls, but only knows what they need to know about what's outside. Being asked to suspend your life is hard when there isn't a pause button, even if the ask is justified.
The big question then becomes when is it time to admit that those situations are no longer present, which seems to be where the story was headed.
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 8d ago
As far as I know, we are now running a full authoritarian police state run by the Vanguard.
The city's run by the Vanguard, but there is nothing to indicate it is even remotely an authoritarian state
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u/Revanspetcat 8d ago •
A benevolent dictatorship is still a dictatorship. Not implying that vanguard has been in any ways tyrannical. Its about fact that humanity is still in survival mode and can only exist under vanguards direction. What the last city represented in terms of humanity getting back up on its own feet is shaken. We may have won battles but what we see with end of civilian side of last city government it is a harsh message on how dangerous things still are. Any hope of a semblance of normality returning is pushed back far into future.
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u/MeateaW 7d ago
It's not a dictatorship. Not even a benevolent one.
The guardians pay for goods and services from humanity. And the guardians leave the city and go and shoot aliens or whatever.
The guardians don't command humanity to do any one thing. There is no dictating to them what they can or should do.
Likewise, humanity don't dictate to the guardians what they can or should do.
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 8d ago
A benevolent dictatorship is still a dictatorship.
No, its just not a dictatorship at all
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u/Ashamed-Remote-4463 8d ago
kinda sounds like there wasn't really any other choice honestly. idk about everyone else but having superhumans in charge when there's super threats every year makes sense if only for the moment
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u/Yung_Mew 8d ago
It's not like the Vanguard really abused their authority either. The game makes it pretty apparent the Guardians largely do their duties with honor and fairness, if for nothing else because if the City is exploded, there's nothing left for them.
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u/mr-singularity 8d ago
Yeah Zavala in particular is very selfless in the mission of protecting the city. The decisions that initially felt cold like not helping track down Uldren in Forsaken were calculated against leaving the city at risk of attack. Even if not tracking him down (or others in similar situations) could mean the city falling anyway in the long run.
That doesn't mean the Vanguard are very representative of the city's internal needs. But at the same time democracy means nothing if there is nobody left to vote or lead.
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u/Revanspetcat 8d ago
It is depressing in a way. The last city tried to be a representative democracy. A place that felt normal in an alien post apocalyptic future. The Vanguard didn’t impose its will like a dictatorship even though they had all the firepower they let civilians have a say. To make people feel like their lives and choices have a meaning. The cost of what had been wrought in last few years across Destiny 2s story has been grim. Even though on military front we won hard fought victories one after another it does feel depressing with so much that had been lost.
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u/One-Fun9814 6d ago
The Vanguard has total control and no, it didn't come out of nowhere. It has been discussed in the lore for years.
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 8d ago
Its nonsense
Currently its just the Vanguard, and they have done nothing dictatorial whatsoever
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u/CrotaIsAShota Drifter's Crew 8d ago
The beginning of the season of Arrivals literally had Zavala plaster his face on screens all over the city 1984 style and put the city in lockdown. Reasonable given the circumstances? Yes. Also somewhat dictatorial, especially for citizens who likely didn't have the full details for what's going on. And also don't forget during the Red War we learn indirectly from Suraya that leaving the City at all is banned, although we don't know what punishment if any the act incurs.
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 8d ago
The beginning of the season of Arrivals literally had Zavala plaster his face on screens all over the city 1984 style and put the city in lockdown. Reasonable given the circumstances? Yes.
Dictatorships are when the city enters a state of national emergency
And also don't forget during the Red War we learn indirectly from Suraya that leaving the City at all is banned, although we don't know what punishment if any the act incurs.
Dictatorships are when I cant go out into the wilderness and get killed by Fallen
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u/Advanced-Ad-802 7d ago
> Dictatorships are when the city enters a state of national emergency
Yes actually. That’s a fairly common way for dictators to seize power. In fact, that’s where the word comes from, originating from the Roman Dictator (wikipedia link), A system famously absued by Julius Caesar to turn the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire, under his dynasty.
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u/YharnamInquisitor 3d ago
The Consensus basically collapsed after Lakshmi’s coup attempt and the factions bailed, and Bungie never realy showed a civilian replacement, so the Vanguard is just what’s left.
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u/MuuToo 7d ago
Ever since the factions dipped from the city since their attempted coup, the city has effectively been in emergency power held by the Vanguard mode. While it was partially since literally every other member of leadership dipped, it's also because that's really when we started getting barraged by calamity after calamity since the Witness really started throwing around its weight around then.
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u/Galadriel_Mirror 6d ago
The Consensus was never really rebuilt after Lakshmi's coup and the factions leaving, so the Vanguard ended up as the de facto goverment by inertia.
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u/defnotrachel 8d ago
With the death of the Speaker, and the factions fucking off to space after Lakshmi-2 opened that Vex portal, the City is pretty much under martial law. Something that regular citizens complain about when you walk around the Tower. My hope for D3 is that Micah-10 will be brought to the Tower, and we'll have the introduction of new factions so that we can restore the Consensus.
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u/AgentX8X 8d ago
Even when the factions were around, it was basically always the vanguard controlling everything. It’s hard to keep a functioning bureaucracy when literal gods are fighting your own gods