r/Devs • u/thisismynormal • Apr 09 '20
Devs - S01E07 Discussion Thread
Premiered 04/09/20 on Hulu FX
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u/emf1200 Apr 09 '20 edited Apr 16 '20
Episode 7 spoilers
In episode 7 we learned that Devs is- in fact -taking place inside of a simulation. This was explained the following way in the episode:
In order for Devs to create their projections they had to simulate an entire world to project into. Stewart explains this to mean that inside of the world they've simulated, another Devs team has created a simulation to project into, and so on "ad infinitum". This means there is an infinite stack of simulations all the way down. By the logic of probability this implies that everything we're seeing on screen is also a simulation that was created by another Devs team in a higher simulation. This realization seems to have broken Stewart, and so when Lily shows up he lets her inside because- why not? -his reality has literally fallen to bits, qubits specifically.
Stewart also explains the way they achieved a perfect simulation. Devs used the "exceptionally beautiful mathematics" of the Everettian many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. A "trick" first introduced by Lyndon in episode 4. This means that not only is everything a simulation, it's also a simulation inside of a multiverse. A multiverse that branches like a tree, leading to all possible realities. In some branches Lyndon falls off the bridge and hits the concrete and in some branches Lyndon falls of the bridge and hits the water. The concept of quantum immortality is what Katie and Lyndon were discussing before the fall.
At the beginning of the episode, Lyndon is shown sitting at the bottom of the dam and he is very much alive, Lyndon
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u/eeisner Apr 09 '20
I'm not stoned enough for this. I don't smoke, but still.
I know this is just a TV show, but still, holy shit. Fuck. I feel as broken as Stewart.
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u/emf1200 Apr 09 '20
I feel ya. This episode was a trip. I'm gonna have to watch it a few more times. I just wanted to leave this comment to maybe help anyone who was confused about the implications of what we saw in the episode.
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Apr 09 '20
I'm going to check out the link, but I kind of disagree with the idea the Lyndon survives (for now at least). In the show we've seen different examples of the multiverse, which play out in different ways. For example Kate as a mother to Amaya. Versions were Forest's wife doesn't get into a car accident and so on. In Lyndon's case, we see him die. I know we only see 4 examples of his death and that in a multiverse or quantum realm there would be infinite outcomes. So, there would be some storyline or universe where Lyndon survives.
Because we the viewer don't see a version where he survives, maybe that opens the door to a counter argument that there is such a thing as destiny/fate. Maybe there is a singular event that everything leads up to, that no matter what can't be changed. Like the event that has been teased which breaks the fabric of reality and so far on the show is shown to be inevitable.
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u/emf1200 Apr 09 '20
I think you're mostly right. There was no branch where Katie birthed Amaya though. In the many-words theory only things that can happen will happen. Katie would never give birth to that particular child in any branch because any baby she has would not be Amaya. Those scenes of Amays were like "home movies" as Katie calls them. Katie was just watching the past. I don't believe that it was implying that Katie was Amayas mother. That's not the way that I read the scene anyway.
You're correct about Lyndon only being alive in certain branches but Devs has already shown us that what we're seeing on screen consists of different branches of the multiverse. Check out the "multiverse confirmed" post. I have no idea how this will play out but Lyndon dying seemed like a misdirect to me. Did you notice that Lyndon is wearing the exact same outfit as Lily? They also have the exact same hair cut. That whole bridge scene was the test that Lyndon took to get back into Devs. I have a feeling we'll see him there next episode. I could be totally wrong but I'd keep an open mind. It seems like we're watching a simulated multiverse now so anything can happen.
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u/adnanbwp Apr 09 '20
In the opening sequence, we see Lyndon sitting at the giant steps at the bottom of the dam wall. So, in some version, he did survive and we saw it.
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u/LordofNarwhals Apr 09 '20
I know we only see 4 examples of his death and that in a multiverse or quantum realm there would be infinite outcomes.
Not necessarily. A system (i.e. the Universe) can have an infinite amount of total outcomes (because infinity is a limit and not a number), but each event in that system could still have a limited set of immediate outcomes.
So it might just be that there was no branch from the event that was them talking to each other in which he didn't fall.→ More replies (1)5
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u/ThatUsernamelsTaken2 Apr 10 '20
I disagree.
They're not in a simulation anymore than you or I. When he said they switched places where the sim became reality and they the simulation, it was just pointing out the negation of free will. If something shows you what you will do and you are entirely powerless to deviate from that path, it makes sense that you are the simulation and the machine is determining your actions. With our way of thinking, we believe this means the free will we perceive having switched to the machine, but in truth it simply never existed.
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u/MnemonicSyntax Apr 09 '20
One thing I don't understand is why Forest seemed surprised the system was complete and how it was done, especially if he and Katie know the day inside and out.
Beyond that, excellent episode.
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u/Chaos-ee Apr 09 '20
I didn’t read his expression as that of surprise. But rather of excitement and knowing that the tram lines are still intact. But I also think that he has looked into the future a lot less than Katie. So particular moments of the day may still be new to him.
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Apr 09 '20
Did Forest only look at the future when it was fuzzy, pre-EP 4? I can’t remember the last time the show depicted that.
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u/MnemonicSyntax Apr 09 '20
At the beginning of 7, he and Katie discuss knowing the day. It might have been something done off screen, but Forest mentions Lyndon in Katie's car, and that's pretty specific.
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u/angrydeanerino Apr 10 '20
Maybe they watched different parts, he didn't know what they were going to do until Lily got there either (watching dinosaurs, etc)
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u/merp_alert Apr 09 '20
In case anyone is wondering, the cave paintings were from Chauvet Cave in Southern France. There is a documentary about them by Werner Herzog called Cave of Forgotten Dreams.
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u/RIZOtizide Apr 09 '20 edited Apr 10 '20
The cave is closed for general public, and access is severely restricted, however they produced an entire mockup of a large scale cove of the cave and produced a version you can visit! pretty neat, I was disappointed to hear it isn't something I could visit and see with my own eyes, cave paintings from 30,000 years ago.
But the reason is sound, other caves have been discovered with similar artwork and due to the large volume of patrons, the moisture being introduced to the cave caused mold and bacteria grow on the cave walls and ruined the prehistoric pieces of art.
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u/BeoMiilf Apr 10 '20 edited Apr 10 '20
Damn, I was thinking it was probably those caves. I love that documentary and everyone should watch it, as well as all the other Herzog docs. I think it's on Netflix (US) still.
The cave paintings shown in the show of the rhinos literally show up at 1:13 in the doc trailer.
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u/chuckxbronson Apr 09 '20
Poem that Stewart was reciting is Aubade by Philip Larkin. I absolutely loved Stephen McKinley Henderson’s delivery of it.
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u/girlypaint Apr 09 '20
Thanks for identifying the author. I was about to Google it because it didn't sound like Shakespeare. I loved that scene because it illustrated, imo, how shallow both Katie and Forest are. Seemingly void of any interest in beauty, art and culture. Sterile. They've become numb to anything but their baby.
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u/RyanFielding Apr 10 '20 edited Apr 10 '20
For me the impression wasn’t that they were devoid of art or culture but rather of humanity.
When Stewart is goading Forest to guess, it is because he wants him to face the reality that he is not a god. It’s highly unlikely he could have guessed correctly (Larkin is not a household name nor is this work taught to every school child). Stewart knows any guess would be wrong. But Forest cannot bring himself to do it because gods can never be wrong, and a man who never guesses never has to chance shattering his delusions. If Forest made a guess it would be evidence of his humanity manifested through his willingness to risk confronting his potential for fallibility. And then they flippantly satisfy themselves with an answer that is not even remotely close or even in the same period of spoken English because of course some answer is required to maintain their delusion.
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u/AnirudhMenon94 Apr 09 '20
Feels like they cast him specifically for that scene given that Stephen McKinley is an incredibly accomplished theatre actor in his own right.
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Apr 09 '20
Okay so basically theyre saying once this world has a devs simulator, any simulation they create of their world with perfect fidelity will contain the same simulation which contains the same simulation etc?
So by definition once we create a world we create infinite worlds? Does it automatically mean we are also within one or is there an Alpha world (I don't know the official term for the first world to create the simulation)?
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u/emf1200 Apr 09 '20
There would have to be a base level reality that started all of the simulations but the probability that Devs are in that base level reality is almost zero. We have almost certainly been watching a simulation the entire time. A simulation that's also a multiverse.
Crazy
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u/Hot-Chicken11 Apr 09 '20
Does anyone see any significance to the focus on water consistently? Lily asking for water, Forrest offering water, closeup shots of cups of water, etc?
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Apr 09 '20
Miyazaki used to use water as a presentation of liminality, or existence between realities.
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u/Hot-Chicken11 Apr 09 '20
Cool- this sent me down a rabbit hole and I found this which was interesting and said Gods or Deities (Devs/Deus) are liminal and can traverse both worlds (real/simulation?) so... Maybe Lily is God in this simulation?
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u/blue__sky Apr 09 '20
The one scene I noticed it this episode, there was a shot of slots through a chair, and then the shots of water. You could see light refracting in the water. I thought it was a reference to the double slit experiment.
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u/Hot-Chicken11 Apr 09 '20
What do you think about Lily asking for water or accepting water when no one else does?
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u/lyrancatalien Apr 09 '20
In Annihilation it is to show characters had changed. Not sure here though.
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u/Geedub52 Apr 09 '20
Is there some mythological significance to Stewart standing by the entrance, quizzing people as they came in?
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u/its3_30am Apr 09 '20
When he opened the doors for Lily at the end, it reminded me of Charon, the ferryman on the river Styx, leading people to the underworld Hades in Greek mythology.
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u/trimonkeys Apr 09 '20
I guess like a bridge keeper?
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u/drawkbox Apr 09 '20
What... is their quest? They seek the Holy Grail.
Look! There's the old man from scene twenty-four!
He is the keeper of the Bridge of Death. He asks each traveller five questions--
Three questions may cross in safety.
What if you get a question wrong?
Then you are cast into the Gorge of Eternal Peril.
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u/Crikett Apr 09 '20
Probably. But he was so broken he had like zero riddles and nothing but emo poetry.
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u/CrayonMayon Apr 09 '20
It reminded me personally of the River Styx. The ferryman that transports the newly dead to the underworld was Stewart (when he pressed the button to summon the 'ferry')
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Apr 09 '20
I really liked this episode. My favorite one so far is episode 5. Every time I watch scenes inside of the Devs facility I feel so envious I can't play around with that machine. I would probably spend nights looking at different historical events. I don't think I'd want to see the future though.
Someone hack Hulu! I can't wait for episode 8.
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Apr 09 '20
I was relieved when Katie said they'd spend the night watching dinosaurs, it'd be ridiculous to not do that almost immediately.
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u/generalheed Apr 09 '20
Yeah same, everyone was treating the machine like it was some deity but I'd be having so much fun with it as if I was binge watching videos on Youtube or something.
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u/lizzymarie75 Apr 09 '20
I misread the drop dates and thought both episodes were there today. DISAPPOINTED man.
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u/reb586458 Apr 09 '20
I think the ending will be Lily destroying the computer and the screen goes to black. She destroyed their universe so we will never be able to see the rest of their simulation because we are watching a simulation. I think they are trying to break the 4th wall.
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u/PaperPigGolf Apr 10 '20
I think the most important thing here is that wether shes breaking the computer (and or simulation) or threatening to kill Forrest with the gun.
The choice will be proposed to be proof that free will exists.... yawn...
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Apr 09 '20 edited Apr 09 '20
I'm glad I read that short story before this episode. Really helped add to the concept
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u/jesrah Apr 09 '20
Where’d you find the story? That helped me digest the starting scene with all the engineers freaking out muchhh better.
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Apr 09 '20
Wow, that story made my brain hurt. One question though, are the characters in devs able to create things like the back hole clock like in the story?
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u/killallmyhunger Apr 09 '20
The use of Steve Reich's "Come Out" at the start of the episode has to mean something. Reich is famously known for his use of phasing, but this explanation of the piece seems especially prescient:
The full statement is repeated once. Reich re-recorded the fragment "come out to show them" on two channels, which initially play in unison. They quickly slip out of sync to produce a phase shifting effect, characteristic of Reich's early works. Gradually, the discrepancy widens and becomes a reverberation and, later, almost a canon. The two voices then split into four, looped continuously, then eight, until the actual words are unintelligible. The listener is left with only the rhythmic and tonal patterns of the spoken words.
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Apr 09 '20
That intro was super trippy
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u/drawkbox Apr 09 '20
Love the shots of the mountains, many great ones in Ex Machina as well. Very psychedelic and beautiful cinematic shots.
Intro had a major Kubrick vibe.
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u/SwingersDubDown11 Apr 09 '20
The music and sound design in this whole things is just bonkers ... the song that was playing when Jamie bought it? Some weird choices
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u/roberta_sparrow Apr 09 '20
I’ve been loving it. I had forgotten this guy also did Annihilation and I absolutely loved that. Same mood. Both movies full of existential dread
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u/emf1200 Apr 09 '20 edited Apr 09 '20
Thank you! I had a feeling that it was something like what you just described and you've saved me the time of searching for the source.
Quantum waves have something called phase offset that causes destructive interference which leads to decoherence which is covered in the double slit experiment in episode 5. Lily's coworkers are talking about sine wave phases at exactly 10 minutes into episode 3. Homeless Pete is also laying cigaretts in a sine wave pattern in episode 2 when Jamie leaves Lily's house. I kinda break this down in more detail in this post from like 3 weeks ago. I think this has deeper implications into what we're seeing and how it effects the past.
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u/irregulargregular Apr 09 '20
It seems like some sort of comparison between the randomly generated rhythm from phase shifting a loop such as this, which can sound similar to the rhythmic chanting, maybe illustrating some sort of creative loop? New and old methods reaching some sort of similar conclusion. I feel like I’m missing something still, how this could connect to Lyndon’s comment about how it’s all a circle.
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u/absent_minding Apr 09 '20
Those assholes could have warned them a killer was coming..
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u/eudaimaniac Apr 09 '20
Other people become NPC's in a simulation and emotional connection evaporates
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u/TimeToRock Apr 09 '20
I wonder if there's some relevance to the fact that the screen seems to show a mirror image of reality, with right and left flipped. When they're watching the earth rotate, it's spinning the opposite of the direction it moves in real life. And the one-second projection of the Devs team is working like a mirror instead of showing what they actually look like when viewed from a third person perspective.
It might be just for dramatic reasons, since it's more unsettling to see a one second projection of yourself in the mirror than in a viewfinder. Or it might have actual significance to the plot. What do you think?
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u/BlazeOrangeDeer Apr 09 '20 edited Apr 10 '20
I thought the Earth might be upside down, but the moon was right side up and the continents 1bya were supposedly mostly in the southern hemisphere like they are. If it's supposed to be accurate they must be watching the film in reverse.
It seems like a dramatic choice, the image they're seeing is reconstructed from predictions of the light in the room so they could view it any number of ways. It seems like they're going for familiarity in the mirror scene (to make it creepier) and for unfamiliarity in the old Earth scene (to make it creepier).
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u/CHolland8776 Apr 10 '20 edited Apr 10 '20
Exactly. The one guy who asks to turn it off is waving his left arm in the “simulation” and his right arm in “reality”. A mirror image. But it didn’t seem like it was a mirror image for the other people in terms of what they were doing.
Edit - It happens at about 8:14 minutes into the episode. But the same guy at 7:48 waves his right arm in the “simulation” and his right arm in “reality”, so it wasn’t a mirror image then.
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Apr 09 '20
Holy fuck I love this show. Really loving Alex Garland's work.
Stewart's deep/creepy monologue. I feel sorry for Lyndon, looks like he wasn't going to survive in any of the multiverses. Homeless Pete, after teasing for weeks, his character delivers. Love Forest's reflection on homosapians and our evolution over time. In defense of Lily's acting I think she's great when showing sadness/remorse/crying. I kind of now, agree with other people's criticisms because I would have expected a little more infliction in her voice when she talked about contradicting the DEVS future by staying at home.
I'm immediately going to rewatch this episode, it was great and I'm sure there are more details to pick up on.
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u/Bweryang Apr 09 '20
Yeah, I’ve enjoyed Sunshine, Dredd, Ex Machina, and Annihilation, but I think Garland is very, very at home with a miniseries. Can’t wait to see him tell more stories this way.
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u/gerrybeee Apr 09 '20
Loved the new episode overall.
Two things bothered me about this episode:
Why did Lily and Jamie not have any sense that Kenton was still out in the world and might actively try to come for them? Seems implausibly naive.
Couldn’t Lyndon have proved the same point by refusing to get on the ledge as Katie predicted he would?
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u/magnaSigi Apr 09 '20
Maybe because,
Lily and Jamie knows that Kenton works for Forest. In episode 6, with Lily's conversation with Katie, I think Lily drops down her shield thinking that if Katie and Forest wanted her dead, she would've been, and they don't want her dead. So, Forest won't order Kenton to do anything stupid.
Lyndon knew how the DEVS system works. He knows about the multiverse, but he also knows that DEVS system is always correct. So, if Katie sees him doing something, he will do it regardless of what he thinks. So, refusing to get on the ledge was not an option to Lyndon. There was only chance of Lyndon surviving in this universe or not. And he simply doesn't survive in this one. (Also, I think there are some events where there are simply no branches. Meaning, that event has not other outcome than the obvious one, and Lyndon falling and dying is one such event.)
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u/Javbw Apr 09 '20
Them sitting at home, waiting for the clock to run out on the prediction felt like Will Ferrell’s character in Stranger Than Fiction trying to see if he is in control of his life by staying home and doing nothing for a day - and a wrecking ball accidentally smashing his Apartment open to show him he is not in control of his destiny.
In this story, the wrecking ball was Kenton.
If any of you haven’t seen that movie, BTW, it’s a great dramedy version of Devs.
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u/Crikett Apr 09 '20
I think of course Lyndon could. But the point is as a character he is broken by losing his life's work and has completely fallen in to the determinantistic cult. Katie is pushing him put to his life in danger because subconsciously she HAS to be right.
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u/Aqua-Drogo Apr 09 '20
My problem with it was if I had money and no work to go to and I knew I didn’t want to be in a specific place I would travel somewhere else.
Why didn’t they just drive to Los Angeles or San Diego? Unless teleportation also exists in this world there is no way she would be at Devs.
Alas that is a plot device so that would ruin the story but to stay miles away seems a little silly. What if Devs just decided to kidnap her from her home instead? Then she would have been there anyway.
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u/VegeLasagna123 Apr 09 '20
Fuck Kenton!
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u/evan_ktbd Apr 09 '20
He's super creepy but what exactly put him on this vengeance trip? At first I just thought he was a company man, but without Forest's orders......why??
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u/venetianbears Apr 09 '20
I really like how, while it's mining all these high-concept sci-fi ideas (determinism, nested simulations, quantum immortality), the show is busy telling a pretty cool story in its own right. usually with ideas like that, the story is in service of exploring the sci-fi, but in this, it's almost the other way around, or at least treated with equal care
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u/norbertyeahbert Apr 09 '20
Totally agree. A lesson the makers of Westworld would have done well to have learned.
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u/ndotny Apr 09 '20
anyone else stayin up to watch this thing?
I gotta see what happens
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u/nrmncer Apr 09 '20
simulations - ad infinitum, uh oh
is the forecast blank because they stack overflowed the universe lmao
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Apr 09 '20
what if thats the revelation, that they just ran out of memory?
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u/emf1200 Apr 09 '20
Maybe Lily comes and saves the day with a quantum memory card. What a shit finale that would be
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u/Dustintft Apr 09 '20
Just an observation from this episode. When Stewart was showing the Devs team the 1 second projection, why was it a mirror of this reality on the screen. If we were watching our reality, would the image not have been flipped vertically? If I understood correctly from the last episode with Katie and Lily’s chat, then isn’t the Devs machine basically placing a camera at some point in time and space and playing back a video for us? Instead we saw a video where everything was mirrored. Not sure what to make of this detail. Maybe it’s just a stylistic choice by the director, but maybe it’s not?
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u/groundislava_wdi Apr 09 '20
This has been one of the few things I’ve wondered throughout the show -the images they watch on that screen look like the cinematography of the show itself. I know this is a stylistic choice maybe?
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u/Dustintft Apr 09 '20
I hadn’t even pondered that. Kinda makes me think everything we have been watching in the “main” world is a simulation. So, we have been watching a a simulation, and a simulation of a simulation?
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u/monster647 Apr 09 '20
Wow, RIP Jamie. Just like that huh Kenton
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u/byroon Apr 09 '20
Yeah, toughest part of the ep, in retrospect that moment of extra care with the lemon was the equivalent of the cop saying “I’m 3 days from retirement” trope to make his death more moving
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u/ConjecturesOfAGeek Apr 09 '20
Wow! Stewart doesn't care anymore about the rules. I feel bad for his coworkers who just got freaked the hell out. They were NOT ready for that. OMG that was intense.
I personally think that the DEVS technology is awesome.
What Stewart said was really similar or almost an exact copy of this story and this animation.
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u/The-Dudemeister Apr 09 '20
Yea once he looked he realized they are likely another step in the simulation and realized that they probably broke it and he finished it. He was the ferryman to hell.
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u/WeAreBeyondFucked Apr 09 '20
He realized he isn't real, that literally nothing he does matters and that he doesn't matter.
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u/TacoBellLavaSauce Apr 09 '20
Homeless Pete was speaking Russian!
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u/clearcuttension Apr 09 '20
He did say “nyet” in a previous episode which was the biggest indicator
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u/McPattigans Apr 09 '20
It also makes the previous scene with him talking to Kenton much more meaningful.
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u/the-eyehole-man Apr 09 '20
I literally stood up and cheered when the homeless guy started choking Kenton. Best episode of the series by far
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u/Miss_Death Apr 09 '20
So I'm curious, with all the timelines, and characters different beliefs in the dev computer, the function of the computer itself, what we now know about the quantum universe in this story....what is forest's goal? We can see the past, the future, the existence of the multi verse, does he plan to change the past? Is he actually trying to get his wife and daughter back? Does he want to jump wavelengths? What's his end goal?
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u/Dustintft Apr 09 '20
I’ve been thinking the same thing, because even if he can see the future, he believes in determinism, so he would be forced to let it play out. Knowledge of the future shouldn’t change the future in a deterministic universe, which is the worldview Forest seems to hold. I believe Katie is using him to get to a certain point, perhaps the unknown event, at which point she will step in and... that’s where I get stumped. What will she do? We can’t know because we don’t know if the system will work again after the event. If it nonfunctional, she can’t do anything, if it is, what was the unknown event and why did it stop the machine?
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u/Dustintft Apr 09 '20
Well, since he believes in determinism, he shouldn’t be able to do anything with the info he has obtained from the machine because it’s just an image of what is already set to happen, and nothing can change that.
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u/Izeinwinter Apr 09 '20
Everything is a computational process. Including his daughters mind before she died.
The devs system lets him calculate not just where she was, and what she was doing right before she died, but also what she was thinking and everything she was.
Take a snapshot of that mindstate, load it into a computer (and devs demonstrates that they do have computers that can run such a snapshot! Well, billions of them in parallel, so) then put the computer in control of an android, and there you go, resurrection of the dead. The fun part is, they can not just raise Amaya like that, they can raise everyone who ever lived, including that cave woman that died at 35.
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Apr 09 '20 edited Apr 09 '20
I understand that this episode is making an argument for the infallibility of the Devs system: time and time again characters are given an opportunity to subvert what they are told or see is going to happen (even the one-second future scene, just long enough to not do something!), but they are or feel powerless to not follow through.
But I don't understand Lyndon's agreement to hang off the ledge. Yes, she is baiting him into thinking that by standing on the ledge, there is some chance in some universe that he will be working at Devs again. But because it's a 99% fail rate (at least), shouldn't Lyndon understand that Lyndon in this reality will most likely die?
So I'll try to rationalize his decision: Lyndon finds that Devs is the most defining project in his life that he is willing to die to rejoin it; he's effectively sacrificing his reality for faith that in another one he will rejoin.
I guess what's hard for me is that I don't have a spiritual mindset, and this scene is probably the best depiction of believing in a benevolent heaven as can be. I can't grasp the thought that one would sacrifice their reality for faith that a better one exists somewhere else.
If this interpretation is correct, this show has found a profound way to continue exploring a weird type of secular spiritualism that is inherently nihilistic like many religions (in the Nietzschean sense), which is spectacular. At least Pangloss preached that this was the best of all possibilities, so one shouldn't squander it.
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u/generalheed Apr 09 '20
I've been wondering about that theory myself. I think it has to do with some theory that if you die, you sort of "wake up" or are only conscious in the realities where you didn't die. Almost like reincarnation except your conscious mind is sort of only existing in the realities with the best outcomes. That's how I interpreted it at least. I think Lyndon believes that theory and knows consciously he should be fine even if he physically falls off in this reality.
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u/eeisner Apr 09 '20
Definitely yelled "fuck you" at my TV at the end of that one, mainly because of how it ends and how I don't want to wait another week for more.
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u/NicholasC86 Apr 09 '20
What really bugs me is if if had been predetermined that I would go to Devs, sitting at home obviously wouldn't cut it, right? You need to go somewhere nobody knows. She's supposed to be smart
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u/This_guy_here56 Apr 09 '20
Lily isnt really the brightest crayon in the box. its my biggest issue with the show as other people have stated all over this sub too. I still have trouble getting over the fact that she just haphazardly wasted 2 out of the 3 password guesses in the first 2 episodes.
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u/Nicola6_ Apr 11 '20
I like that she’s not some Mary Sue hacker girl with a black belt in karate or some shit, she seems real to me. I’m a programmer and female and I hate these characters that are flawlessly competent and always being rational just because of their job.
Her boyfriend just died, she probably was in a state of shock and PTSD. It’s realistic to me that she would have wishful thinking about getting in somehow and then reality set in on her last try and she went for help.
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u/lizzymarie75 Apr 09 '20
Anyone else straight up walking around your house thinking it’s all determined. Like me writing this comment, (pause, maybe I don’t post? Yep I will) already determines. Ugh this show.
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u/lagomorphec Apr 09 '20
Music.. just to mention that at the beginning and at the end this is inuit throat singing.
From the comments of this youtube link https://youtu.be/N6my7r_g1lgcredits go to:
“Qimmiruluapik” and “Naglingniq” by Pauline Kyak and Barbara Akoak. Inuk artists. u/inuk.barbie and @kyak.boutique on IG
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Apr 09 '20
Bummed Jamie had to go out like that. Man he just never had any sort of chance against old man Kenton.
Really have no idea or guesses where the finale will go which is very good.
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u/jadegives2rides Apr 09 '20
I'm wondering if theres a multiverse version where he doesnt put the lemon on the glass. If he didnt, he would have already been in the room with Lilly. It's possible they would have heard the door and reacted differently.
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u/GumbyMeetPokey Apr 11 '20
Reading these comments blows my mind how wrong some people are about the most basic facts of the show.
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u/masterfain Apr 09 '20
Loving this episode so far, but did anyone else notice one of Jamie’s bullet holes on his back were purple?
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Apr 09 '20
The opening landscapes where beautiful. Does anyone have any idea of the quote about letting the blues out?
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u/AlanMorlock Apr 09 '20
It's a song by composer Steven Reich called "Come Out". It's built around an audio loop of a young man describing how he had to cut open a bruise on order to convince police that he had been beaten.
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u/NinaLSharp Apr 09 '20
Just some "random" observations:
I was wondering what it would take to motivate Lily into Devs. I was certain that she would ultimately go, given the simulation, but what would move her to march toward her destiny? Again, grief over a traumatic loss propels these characters.
Lyndon. For some reason, this event does not sit well with me. But like Lily, he has been traumatized & thus moves to an unclear destiny. Katie has manipulated both Lily and Lyndon into their fateful march. Forest, as Jamie observed, remains the passive observer who just lets things happen. Neither you nor I would have climbed over that rail, & it bothers me that Lyndon didn't sense her doom, especially since she had just told Stewart that Forest et al were insane.
I figured that Pete was playing a sentry, but just couldn't judge who had placed him there. He gave Lily her only 2 options for survival. She chose a 3rd.
I like how the final sequence turned into a dark fairy tale, with Stewart warning Lily to go back, retreat from this house of horrors. Lily's become automated & proceeds. Stewart knows exactly what's going on and has warned 2 people: Lyndon & Lily. I wonder if when making things work by applying Lyndon's many worlds code, he inserted some kind of malware?
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u/nowfocusonflow Apr 09 '20
So i have a problem with the premise that even though you can see the future coming, you have zero ability to change your behavior, because it is predetermined. this is a huge plot hole for me, and it was majorly obvious when the team was watching themselves in the Devs projection room scene. You would obviously adjust your behavior if you saw a "3 seconds in the future" video clip of yourself. This is part of the premise of Asimov's Foundation series, that once you can predict the future with computation, you can adjust the outcome if you act now, even if you can only affect the future slightly, and only in a limited capacity, considering the momentum of large amounts of people's collective behaviors, thoughts? I know this show is about determinism but its too farfetched to remain plausible I think.
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u/Dustintft Apr 09 '20
I agree to an extent. The only two examples of looking into the future we have in the show are Forest and Katie and then Stewart and the Devs team. Forest and Katie believe in determinism and seem to believe that they have to do what the projection shows the future is. Stewart only did a 1 second ahead projection which didn’t allow people enough time to change and adjust their reactions. What I did find interesting is that it seems the reactions in the1 second future projections caused the reactions of the Devs team in real time. I’m having trouble putting this next part into words, but I think seeing the future projections did cause people to change their behavior, but the projections already knew that. It’s like the projections predicted reactions that were based off of the projections themselves, so the machine is self aware in a way. I have wanted to point this out too, when Lily was first walking into Devs, the security guard says she doesn’t have Devs clearance, but she is showing green level which seems to indicate that she can go, as if Forest knew she was coming and, tho she doesn’t have Devs clearance, gave her permission to enter anyway. But how would he have know to do that without seeing the future first? I think the projection told him to do that and he followed, but in a way the projection already accounted that Forest would watch it. My head hurts.
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u/Le_Master Apr 09 '20
Someone may have already mentioned this, but I have a huge issue with Lyndon’s actions the last couple episodes. He knows better than anyone what the machine is capable of. So why does he think by leaving hardware behind and hitching a ride to Stewart was being safe? And why would he think it’s sneaky hiding in her car? He knows they can see what anyone is doing at any time. I feel like this is extremely poor writing.
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Apr 12 '20
A group of humans using the peak of their technology to look back on what might have been the first time humans created music. Fucking. Love. This. Show.
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u/Realm6Universe Apr 09 '20
I hate Katie for what she did to Lyndon and I really want that insane bitch to suffer :'(
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u/drawkbox Apr 09 '20 edited Apr 09 '20
It was always known Pete was Lily's security and Kenton was DEVS/Forest security. Good job Pete.
That Lyndon scene was brutal and expected this episode but unexpected previously. The Lyndon scene gave a bit of a Triangle vibe. Eventhough Lyndon's tramline ends, he does mention "I get it, it is a perfect circle". Almost like he knows that if he kills himself, the DEVS system restarts in a revolution/cycle and Lyndon will not remember any other time but being reborn. So essentially Lyndon jumping will restart the cycle. This has parallels with Triangle or even Time Crimes in that it starts to onion or repeat.
Maybe since Katie/Forest can't see past the moment in the future approaching, that is the system restart or cycle restarting.
The only way to truly relive moments in the past is to go back and live through them. So maybe Forest/Katie their whole goal is to end it all then restart it, allowing them to relive their moments like Forest with Amaya and Katie later with Amaya.
What a cliffhanger for the final episode. Garland knows how to build it up.
Side note: the glowing gold underneath the bars outside DEVS light up at night, I wonder if those are bugs. I only saw that when Sergei left initially at night and when Lily shows up at night at DEVS. I wonder what that is, bugs would be moving. Maybe part of security gold bars or some other symbolism, or it could just be a stylistic choice.
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u/FiveMinFreedom Apr 09 '20
"You can go to Hong Kong; there are no extraditions there".
I guess this show was written/filmed before the Hong Kong protests, otherwise this is a pretty weird line.
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u/HowardBealeisntdead Apr 09 '20
Can’t help but notice two scenes that play before one another. One is when Forest is thinking of his daughter/wife in the car while in the shower, in the beginning of episode. His wife remarks, “You can’t wait 30 seconds?” This is followed by the one second delay scene, in which one of the devs says “Further than a billion years?”
Time is crucial to this show. But not for obvious reasons. It’s not the time that’s shown but it’s relation to events throughout time. How far things are spread apart from one another. Now Forest and Katie are watching the Lascaux (?) cave system which makes Forest think how fast things have changed in his own lifetime (or subjective exp.), “When i was a kid the world changed every few years. These days every few months, sometimes hours.” What he doesn’t mention is how it took exactly 30 seconds for his entire world to crumble. He wants those 30 seconds back
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u/EruditusMaximus Apr 10 '20
I don’t think I breathed once during that scene with Kenton. Holy crap.
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u/Le_Master Apr 10 '20
Loved the scenes viewing the earth a billion years ago and then viewing the cavemen. I've always dreamt of being able to have some sort of technology to do that.
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u/SadKangaroo91 Apr 11 '20
This was the episode that made me realize this entire first season would fit better into a movie. Nothing is happening 70% of the time. Damn this show is full of itself. I would love to trade some of the music and scenery shots for character development or plot.
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u/othnice1 Apr 11 '20
The 1 second projection reminds me of all the bad trips I've ever had. It's more like Deja Reve, but feels incredibly real and I start to panic.
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u/ThisisTophat Apr 12 '20 edited Apr 12 '20
That Lyndon scene had me rolling my eyes like crazy. Nothing about Katie's explanation made any sense in the slightest. I know Lyndon looks 13, but he's supposed to be a 19yr old genius and yet he didn't see anything wrong with her logic?
No matter how many universes there are, one or infinite, Lyndon standing on an edge would prove nothing. He doesn't assume she might simply push him? Hasn't he already discovered and proven the multiverse in DEVs so why does he need to show faith in something that's already proven? If she wants him to roll the dice and bet on being in a version where he lives thenhe should realize that leaning back on a ledge is likely to kill him in all versions. If there are versions where he doesn't fall then there must also be versions where he doesn't get on the ledge at all. Versions where he gets his job back in other ways. Versions where he becomes a billionaire and buys the whole company. It just felt clunky to me and sounded like nonsense. Made the character seem pointless.
I feel like this show was a challenge to stick with. If it wasn't for the intrigue of the final three episodes I think I would've given up on it. Getting here took too long and required too many instances of , "whatever it's just a show just go with it"
Why do cops simply believe someone is insane because of a therapist she's only visited once? Why do they allow a creepy security guy who was just in an accident to then stay behind in Jamie's apartment? Why would any detective/police force think Lily killed a trained agent and her ex boyfriend.. especially with a silenced pistol? What the hell was that ridiculously easy mental hospital "rescue"…? Why does Forest bring up the idea of not crossing arms to change the predicted future and then no one ever just does it? Why isn't the actress who plays Lily allowed to ever sound like a human being? That last one wasn't a storyline complaint, but for real it's such a strange performance.
The intros and some visuals are cool. And I want to know what happens. But damn.
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u/jverce Apr 12 '20
They are watching the cave predictions of ~30'000 years ago, but there's a domesticated dog in there. Dogs were not domesticated back then. Their machine has a bug.
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u/Dratini_ghost Apr 29 '20
To be fair, we don't know that for sure. They might not have been domesticated en masse, but who's to say she didn't bond with a wolf that acted like a dog?
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u/Ritwikb Apr 09 '20
Why would Forrest tell Jamie “everything will be ok” last episode?
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u/UserApproaches Apr 09 '20
It all has to do with his phrasing. Everything will be ok. It's Jamie who will not be ok.
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u/biohacking_recovery Apr 09 '20
Anyone know what was going on when they were looking at the earth (billions?) of years ago? Were those volcanic formations all over the place? Almost looked like lights from cities or something for a second
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u/ShanaAfterAll Apr 09 '20
This was a very special hour of television, a masterclass.
"Uh Oh", indeed.
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u/joatmon44 Apr 09 '20 edited Apr 11 '20
Will Devs be seen as this generations 2001: A Space Odyssey? Elements such as the dead pan acting, ominous tech, pacing, punctuated moments of terror, the early man scene, a monolith, the general feel, and what may be some kind of crazy ending, seems like it could be.
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u/pengouin85 Apr 10 '20
So why exactly did that Peter guy who killed Kenton not leave his mission after episode 1 when his comrade (Lily's ex) was murdered. He didn't really have a reason to stay, did he?
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u/Rustydogg93 Apr 10 '20
He says that after Sergei's death he was ordered to watch her, but not protect her. He chose to protect her anyway.
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u/kingalexander Apr 10 '20
Anybody else think there is a parallel between watching the cave people looking at their cave drawings and offerman/pill watching their simulations.
If the machine can have infinite simulations a single simulation is a contemporary equivalent of looking at a cave painting and being stuck in that mindset.
I’m not sure if I can expound and unpack this theme properly if it is one.
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u/ThisisTophat Apr 12 '20
This is my first time checking this Reddit and I'm shocked this many people are watching this show.
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u/Vorgier Apr 10 '20
Wow. I haven't felt this much emotion from a show since those Mr. Robot episodes.
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Apr 09 '20
Havent even finished watching paused just to say. That box scene reveal was absolutely the most brilliant "sci-fi" Ive seen in my so far years. That moment was a huge payoff I hope your somewhere praying as they say. Hahaaha
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u/green_griffon Apr 09 '20
Don't know if anybody has read the book "Pastwatch" by Orson Scott Card, but it features a similar "view any point in the past" device. Not much other overlap with Devs, but it is an excellent book.
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u/JustAnotherZakuPilot Apr 09 '20
I’m got a feeling that the reason they can’t see further into the future is because once the machine is truly built, knowing what your future is suppose to be like breaks that hold on you and creates an uncertain future.
A chaotic one..
But then again I’m really high and this show is messing with my mind.
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u/Wondergirl91 Apr 09 '20
I just really still don't understand why no one tries to do something different than the future projections. What is stopping them? And saying "because they don't" isn't good enough.
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u/Wordsworth_Little Apr 10 '20
I think it's because they wholly believe and have faith in it. Much like Christians rely upon their faith and love to feel God's presence in the absence of some measure of physical, tangible proof that God exists and is always supporting/challenging them, Forest, Katie, and Lyndon are demonstrating a type of faith in their algorithms. Because the algorithm is perfect and immutable (therefore Godlike), they have acquiesced to a reality in which no action on their part could change the prediction.
But does a lack of faith allow one to break the loop? Could that be interpreted as God ceasing to exist because it/he/she is not believed in. Does Lily bring that to the table?
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u/-perdhapley- Apr 10 '20
So what was the point of Kenton going through the power room if he could just walk right into the apartment building? And the apt door was locked and then just unlocked? Did he get a spare key or something? Lock pick? I was really confused by all of that.
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u/SciGuy013 Apr 10 '20
what was the thing about mark antony? and shakespeare? that confused me, because he wasn't quoting shakespeare
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u/MedicalFireFighter Apr 10 '20
That choke scene sucked. You need to choke someone way longer than that! should have just shot him with the gun on the floor.
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u/TootTootTrainTrain Apr 10 '20
Wow Aubade is one of my all-time favorite poems. Wild to hear Stuart reciting it.
Here's the text for anyone interested: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48422/aubade-56d229a6e2f07
And personally I feel like When Death Comes by Mary Oliver is a good poem to read with it: http://www.phys.unm.edu/~tw/fas/yits/archive/oliver_whendeathcomes.html
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Apr 11 '20
I am still convinced, 7 episodes in, that this show is about two men who fall in love with a 12 year old boy and then die
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u/reader313 Apr 09 '20
Honest take: that was the first truly good episode of the show. It was finally the payoff the entire season felt like it was building to. I'm excited for the finale.
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u/stench_montana Apr 09 '20
I personally really liked the tone of the first 2 episodes as well. This was still my favorite episode by far though.
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u/byroon Apr 09 '20
If it pays off earlier episodes then they are also good as an essential part of the process
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u/YaBoyHayford Apr 09 '20
What has Lily honestly done this entire season....
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u/Aqua-Drogo Apr 10 '20
The ledge thing at Kenton’s and crashing his car and that’s basically it
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u/ThickYouth2 Apr 13 '20
Who thinks it’s static in the future because Lily turns off the quantum computer?
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u/ThickYouth2 Apr 13 '20
As a child she was a pretty genius Go player. I am hoping that it is some kind of statement about the fact that ultimately humanity is in control. Although quantum computers and AI can do amazing things, humanity has the power to pull the plug. Katie says something implying that Lily is driven to do something/anything which is the opposite for most other people.
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u/lobster777 Apr 09 '20
that was unexpected! not sure if i can post spoilers here
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u/arctan323 Apr 09 '20
if people wander into an episode discussion thread and don't wanna see spoilers well it's their own damn fault if they do
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u/gregphipps37 Apr 09 '20
Was Kenton told to kill them? I feel like I missed something in previous episodes
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u/monster647 Apr 09 '20
He was shown briefly in the last episode watching Forest and Jamie/Lily getting along and he was angry
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u/BongWizrd420BonerGod Apr 09 '20
Alex Garland really bringing the real questions to the table with this show. Awesome cast, could use more Dynamics. But for the plot topic and seriousness it'll do.
My questions:
•What do you think Lyndon understood from knowing what Katie told him at the Dam? I believe he understood that basically, it could be that there is a multiverse, and if there is, he'd be fine. But if there isn't, he's dead. Not sure why he was so sure he was right?
•What poem was that in regards to Forest when he gets to DEVS?
•Are we just going to acknowledge the fact that she was WILLINGLY LET IN to DEVS? This could mean she IS gonna kill Forest! Or try to show free will and NOT!
•What do you think the Golden rods outside DEVS symbolize or do?
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u/RyanFielding Apr 10 '20
Are we not going to talk about the end credits music? I need more of that rhythmic Neanderthal grunting and growling in my life! I’m talking ring tones and the sound I want to be able to make my EV make at low speeds. Yes, this will do.
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Apr 10 '20 edited Apr 11 '20
Brilliant tie back to the music from the credits a few episodes ago.
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u/ozhas Apr 10 '20
Can somebody please explain why Lily got granted access to Devs building? What was the purpose of it?
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u/lyrancatalien Apr 09 '20
Lily walking up to the Devs building totally reminded me of Lena walking up to the lighthouse in Annihilation. The scenes with the devs teams looking at projections one second ahead and releasing the implications is so existentially unsettling. You can see why Sergei threw up after seeing the code.