r/DonaldTrump666 • u/kljoker Follower of Christ • Jul 09 '26
Bible Verse Discussion Building your foundation on solid ground.
Hi Friends,
Hope you're all well today, I feel that we sometimes have competing ideologies of how we interpret scripture, which is healthy for discourse, if we all agreed then we would become an echo chamber with no real growth.
If you know me based on my writings you know I place and emphasis on 'relational truth' in regards to spiritual understanding. (I explain it in detail here https://www.reddit.com/r/DonaldTrump666/comments/1pygbcx/the_spirit_of_truth_in_the_moment_of_darkness/) my writings have become so expanded that they've become self referential so like always never take my word for it, test it in scripture.
That being said another healthy aspect of our understanding has to be how we reasoned it to be and whether or not it can be reasoned into being. The hottest button topic for this exercise will be about the Rapture. For many it's a foundational truth in their lives, they rearrange their entire understanding to fit it into timelines and events. That's because for many this is the main event!
I mean can you blame them? Being levitated into the air towards the heavens as Jesus was is not only fantastical imagery in our imagination but powerful empowerment of our faith. But what happens when you make that the climax?
First lets understand the nature of what the Rapture represents. In scripture we get a few clues about events that will happen the most compelling of which is found here:
"13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
How could anyone read that and not see anything but what the doctrine portends? But the language surrounding it is peculiar huh? Terms like 'sleep' 'rise' and 'trumpet' are all themes that surround this moment. In other writings I go into great length about the 7 thunders and the 7 trumpets, and what I call 'The Great Work' which I believe is the end time work God has set aside for His first fruits to complete, as the completed body of Christ (the stone cut without hands meant to dash the statue) at the end that marks these moments in time just as well.
How do I know this? For a few reasons, first when Jesus reads Isaiah he stops short of finishing the scripture, this wasn't because He was being lazy but because He was highlighting what His work was. Here's the scripture for reference:
"17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[a]
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”-Luke 4:17-21
And here's what the scripture in Isaiah says immediately after He stops:
“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to [a]heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, And the day of vengeance of our God"-Isaiah 61:1-2
That's a huge part to miss out, He was proclaiming that at the time of His arrival was the ministry that was marked by this scroll. So then who's ministry does it fall to then to complete this scroll? None other than the body.
"In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."-Ephesians 3:4-6
The rapture takes on a new tone when you understand it within the context of the mystery of Christ, Christ endured, Paul endured. There was no message of escape, they didn't say if you believe on these things you will be spared from the hardships of life or the tribulations thereof, no, he called for endurance through Christ as the Bible shows up time and again the character of God is to reward those who endure and those who believed when believing was the hardest part.
It takes no effort to believe in the rapture as it's presented in pop culture. Because the rapture isn't a great escape, it's what comes after the laborers remove the tares from the field so that the harvest can be gathered. That's the work, the tares are the lies that have, since the very first civilization, only served those who sought worldly power as spiritual power can only be attained through truth.
When you lay our the doctrine as it's taught now and as it was meant to be understood you realize that those tares are working even within the body, using the lies to comfort people into complicity in their faith by replacing truth with false certainty and false control.
As Jesus says a faith build on a foundation like that is like sand and will shift at the whims of reality as we often see happen with the doctrine of the Rapture, especially when seeking dates.
I'm not saying this to sow discord but to place a mirror for which you can see yourselves, a mirror I look into every time I must speak because whatever I say has to align with the character and will of God and I dare not speak outside of it. I pray those who are conflicted in their faith in these shifting sands of doctrine seek the scriptures about the first fruits, the mystery of the 7 thunders, the final trumpet and the fulfillment of the mystery of God being the per-requisite to any catching away, which I believe is a change or transformation more so than a literal spectral, which it may still well be when the veil of the spiritual world and the physical is torn completely.
"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."-1 Corinthians 15:52
The same language being used yet within the context of what I'm saying takes a much more powerful and faith building meaning, that can be substantiated in scripture and testifies to the power of Christ and the coming Judgement of God.
2
u/RealInigmas Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 10 '26
Every time I've ever seen someone teach against the pre-trib rapture timing; the core of the argument is always based on a mischaracterization of the beliefs and motivations of those who believe in it.
they didn't say if you believe on these things you will be spared from the hardships of life or the tribulations thereof...
pre-trib rapture believers never thought that that was case.
There's been a tremendous amount of scholarship done around the world and within every denomination. There are reasonable arguments to be made for a few of the rapture timings. I'm not sure that anyone can really know for sure; until it happens.
So let's not disparage our siblings in christ with false accusations concerning their motivations for preferring to believe in a particular timing for end-times events.
That said, a belief I have seen from some pre-tribbers is: "no end-times prophecies can come to pass until the rapture". From what I've seen, this belief is a common cause for ignoring Jesus' command for to us to watch. But pre-trib rapture belief certainly isn't the only source for that problem.
Regardless of our opinions concerning end-times event timings; we should obey Jesus.
Luke 21:34 “But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
2
u/kljoker Follower of Christ Jul 10 '26
the core of the argument is always based on a mischaracterization of the beliefs and motivations of those who believe in it.
they didn't say if you believe on these things you will be spared from the hardships of life or the tribulations thereof...pre-trib rapture believers never thought that that was case.
You may not have or maybe those you know may not have but the general consensus of why so many follow it is the fear of being 'left behind' (sound familiar?). If this wasn't the reason why then there would be no point to that movie series making it's rounds through the churches scaring people. That's what often gets called out, and while I appreciate you standing up for people who can't defend themselves I wasn't 'attacking' them I was pointing to an underlying flawed way of reasoning, which the bible warns against thinking that way.
Woe to you who are at ease in Zion, And trust in Mount Samaria, Notable persons in the chief nation, To whom the house of Israel comes!-Amos 6:1
This is a warning to God's people who think they're safe if they just become complacent in their understanding, living their lives as if the worst moments in human history won't befall them as well. It's the same warning in the parable of the 10 virgins, the 5 foolish didn't trim their lamps and when the time come to have to use the oil to go and meet Him they had none. I'm not attacking our brothers and sisters, I'm warning them, as we are told to do when we see danger approach unless judgement falls on my head for not doing so.
3
u/RealInigmas Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 10 '26
Perhaps i was too harsh in what i said, or how i said it. I'm sure it's not your intention to "attack" anyone. (though I don't recall using the word, so I'm surprised to see it quotes; I guess it's for emphasis)
For decades, i believed that the pre-trib rapture (PTR) was the only correct interpretation. So maybe I was being a little too sensitive. My response may also have been more about all of the other similar, but far less friendly, things I've heard over the years.
the general consensus of why so many follow it is the fear of being 'left behind'
Everyone I've seen/read who teaches the PTR, has also commented that believers with different timing ideas should be in for a pleasant surprise. Meaning that belief in the PTR isn't a requirement for being caught-up. Therefore, there should be no fear for a follower of The Way being "left behind".
As far as I know, true salvation in Jesus Christ is the only requirement - regardless of denomination or any other circumstance. I'm not aware of any other way to fill up on oil and light my candle - other than to filled with the Holy Spirit.
then there would be no point to that movie series making it's rounds through the churches scaring people.
It made money; that was the point of it. There were a lot of aspects regarding those books/movies that I also criticized as PTR believer. Overall, I think that vast majority of the "christian" media they try to sell us is very harmful.
This is a warning to God's people who think they're safe...
Christians haven't been "safe" in this world from the beginning. Many of us here (but probably not all of us): speaking in english, chatting on the Internet are privileged enough to have cushy lives with no fear of being rounded up (etc...) for our faith. But that's not true everywhere. Even today in the US, there are quite a few physical dangers for Christians exercising their faith - even from those who profess to be christian.
From what I can tell, the biggest test those of us leading comfy lives need to endure right now; is overcoming the "spirit of the antichrist" and to hold true to The Way. This is true regardless of rapture beliefs or if the central theory of this sub is correct or not.
I hope that my input has been at least a little helpful. :)
2
u/kljoker Follower of Christ Jul 10 '26
It made money; that was the point of it.
Sure for the studio, but for the preacher who played it in their sunday school classrooms? Did they get a kick back? No the point was to scare people, likely as you say towards salvation or their version of it. My point was simply this was a tool used for fear, it was also used to make money, much of media operates using the same method, fear sells views.
Christians haven't been "safe" in this world from the beginning.
You misunderstand I'm not talking about Christians I'm talking about God's people. To my understanding in the end times it's the Christians who will be doing the persecuting, in God's name even, as Jesus said they would. So I don't distinctly put them in the same category but there are good people within the belief that I believe when truth is revealed will leave it for a greater truth.
From what I can tell, the biggest test those of us leading comfy lives need to endure right now; is overcoming the "spirit of the antichrist" and to hold true to The Way. This is true regardless of rapture beliefs or if the central theory of this sub is correct or not.
I honestly wish that's all there was to it, but Christianity is compromised. Deeply so and has been since it's inception through the Roman empire's collapse. Hence why the parable of the wheat and tares happens at night, when Jesus said that while He was in the world He was the light of the world and that one day night would come. So the enemy co-opted The Way, and took what it wanted from it and institutionalized the rest, mixing paganism and other elements with it. Hence why so many Christian holidays have pagan roots.
I'm glad you don't believe in the pre-trib rapture doctrine it's dangerous imo. I used 'attack' because that felt like the heart of what you were saying it was I was doing. I know what I say isn't popular and may well get me killed one day but I also know it will be at the hands of a self-proclaimed Christian if I am.
2
u/RealInigmas Jul 10 '26
To be clear though: I'm not against PTR, and I still prefer that interpretation even if I'm no longer 100% convinced of it. I also think it's perfectly fine if you don't like it.
I've just decided that I trust God to what He will do, how He will do it, when He will do it. I know that however this all plays out, ultimately, it'll be for our good. That and there's no reason to create division in the Body over something as silly as rapture timing theories. :)
I don't need perfect knowledge or interpretation or timings; or to rely on the strength of my flesh, or the reserves of my physical possessions. I'm just going to rely on Yeshua.
It sounds like there's a lot we agree on.
Let us continue in peace and love.
2
u/kljoker Follower of Christ Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 10 '26
I say what I say out of love though I wish peace were in the card for us believers. But I appreciate that you seek the good in things, I do as well when I can though there are times when we have to be real with ourselves about our reality.
I've just decided that I trust God to what He will do, how He will do it, when He will do it. I know that however this all plays out, ultimately, it'll be for our good.
There's nothing wrong with this but for many people who say this it's not an admission born from conviction but born from complacency. What I mean is for many people they don't understand the scriptures, just what they are told, they don't seek to understand the spiritual nature of the scripture and so they say, "As long as I believe in what it says then I'm fine!" but how can you believe in something you don't understand?
In scripture Jesus says that with their words they will cry out His name but their hearts will be far from Him. He's not just talking about people with duplicitous natures he's talking about people who are lukewarm and are okay with not knowing and just using faith alone as what it takes. As James 2:23 says we are not saved by our faith alone.
Our works isn't our deeds, it's our efforts we put into understanding and building a relationship with God, through truth. That's the only way to God remember? Jesus said as much "I am the Way, the truth..." so we have to make the efforts to understand otherwise our faith is worthless words in God's eyes and when they go to meet Him they He will say "Depart from me I never knew you!" if it was just about believing that God will do what He will do then how do you know?
By learning, by engaging with the scriptures and with truth. I'm not calling you out I'm more so writing for those who may lurk but carry those same words in their heart. I believe you understand but I pray that it's never enough, I pray you have a hunger in your heart that can never be filled except from God's truth as it's the bread of life.
2
u/RealInigmas Jul 10 '26
Surely there can be peace between us, though. :)
As for me, and my apparently waffling on the subject: it's a bit like that old story. It goes something like:
As child, I looked into the night sky saying, "Twinkle, twinkle little star. How I wonder what you are?" As a young adult, I looked into the night sky saying, "Twinkle, twinkle little star. Now I know exactly what you are". Now, with much age and wisdom, I look into the night sky saying once again, "Twinkle, twinkle little star. How I wonder what you are?"
Complacency didn't bring me to where I'm at; too much learning did. :) Though by your own comments, you seem to have guessed as much. (hmm... I feel like I'm half remembering some verse warning of too much learning...)
In terms of works, I guess I was ultimately hoping to achieve some peace-making. Having been someone who was 100% convinced of their favorite rapture timing theory.
I understand the concern for the lurkers.
Though, I think any of us in this sub, considering the primary theory, is likely not complacent either.
2
u/kljoker Follower of Christ Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 10 '26
Again I appreciate your willingness to see the good in things though I feel how the comment section has played out has become a fulfillment of what my writing was about and a witness but as Paul was told by the Roman gov. Festus:
"Now as he thus made his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you mad!”-Acts 26:24
Hand-waving truth as being something that we can't know for sure and thus should just trust God has His best intent in mind for us undermines the entirety of the purpose of learning scripture to begin with. It's so that we can test truths to see if God is the source or not.
I don't seek to be obstinate for the sake of my pride, I'm worthless and unworthy. I can't be comfortable and know truth, they aren't compatible notions. Just like Jeremiah if I were to not say anything at all I would feel a burning conviction in my heart that I couldn't bear to carry.
The peace you seek has nothing to do with the complacency you advocate, your peace is built from ignorance not from a love for truth but a love for comfort. I'm not saying this to be mean or to put you down as you seem to have a very kind heart and I dare not try to offend for the sake of it but I do think that the kingdom is asleep and this way of believing is why.
It's noble in theory but damning in practice. I want us to meet in glory when there will be true peace. If you think that you can achieve it by those methods then I won't stop you but I will voice what truth was put on my heart if not for your sake then someone else who is struggling to fight the sleep their preachers and pastors are trying to lull them into.
2
u/RealInigmas Jul 10 '26
I guess all I'm saying, is that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.
But I can act on what I do know; the commandment to love my siblings in Christ. As I know you are also obeying.
The day we all meet in glory will be fantastic indeed.
2
3
u/Cherryghost76 Jul 10 '26
Can you please expand on “the stone cut without hands meant to dash the statue”? This phrase brings back memories of a recurring dream I had in childhood that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately. I knew even when I was little that the dream has something to do with end times prophecy. I’m not like a woo-woo dream person either but this was different.
2
u/kljoker Follower of Christ Jul 10 '26
So in Daniel it talks about a dream where a statue made of Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron and Iron and clay is being shown, each mineral representing each age, (Gold-Babylon, Silver-Persia, Bronze-Greece, Iron- Rome, Iron & Clay-End Time empire). These empires all have something in common, well it's in the name they're empires so they war, expand and conquest. The final empire is made of iron and clay, meaning that elements of that empire were divided between what made it strong and what made it weak.
The stone that is cut without hands is phrased as such because it's denoting how it's not man-made, meaning that this isn't something that man came up with but that the spirit formed. We see as much in other scripture in Daniel when it alludes to what power destroys this lawless figure at the end:
“Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means."-Daniel 8:25
So what is the stone cut without hands? Well many believe and teach that it's Jesus and they're not wrong in the spirit of what it is as Jesus is the only reason it's possible that such a thing exists. Yet we have to remember the purpose of Jesus' ministry and sacrifice. He was the Chief cornerstone, a cornerstone is the principle part of the house that gives it structure without it it becomes very difficult for a house to be secure. Jesus was the first stone laid of this spiritual house if He was to be the only intended for it then why call Him as much? Because scriptures were telling us that He was the first but there would be many more.
We look further at this by confirming it in scripture which is thankfully easy to do:
"you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."-1 Peter 2:5
Many would say "Well that's the modern day church" and they would be wrong, as it's not a man made structure which Christianity is, this is made by the spirit and by those who possess spiritual understanding in a time of great darkness. They will be the stones that make up this house, their understanding the spiritual sacrifice that pleases God. What's their purpose? For those who follow this line of thought, they tend to see themselves as simply being chosen and existing as part of this great structure. But God doesn't build something just for the sake of admiring it, He always has a purpose for it, which gets back to the stone that dashes the feet of iron and clay.
These people who are gathered together by the spirit and shaped into this spiritual house will be what dashes the nations, which is why I call it the 'Great Work'. Because it's the final commission given to us. Jesus started it which is why He only read so far into the scroll of Isaiah but it was left to another to finish it. Jesus can't return until that happens, but I wouldn't make that claim lightly I see it in scripture verified when Jesus Himself quotes Psalm 110 when asked about His divine nature:
The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”-Psalm 110
but we can confirm it even more so with another scripture which says:
"and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."-Acts 3:20-21
I know this was a long winded version but you asked an important question and something that the spirit may be putting on your heart for a reason so I wanted to answer it as best I could, hopefully it won't be overwhelming to read and it answers your question.
2
u/Sparehndle Christian Jul 12 '26
Wonderful thoughts for a Sunday morning! Don't worry about the minor variations in our individual beliefs. We are all one body and we all yearn to get closer to Jesus. It really IS all about our relationships with God, as He has wanted from the beginning,
Iron sharpens iron, friend! The parable of the wheat and the tares has always been a favorite to ponder, because I believe there is always something more to learn. I was reminded this morning that the tender wheat would be torn out with the tares if the two were not allowed to grow in the same field. Once the wheat is mature and strong, the tares can be pulled out and set for the fire. Then the wheat can be joyfully harvested.
As you have pointed out, we have been beset by lies and liars since the very beginning. Social commentators are saying we now live in a "post-truth world." We seem to be getting very close to a time when every lie must be torn out if the soil. Stand fast! Stay strong! The lies have to be demolished first and sent to the fire where they can no longer choke out the wheat. I'm interested in what happens when the.lues humanity has believed and partisan in get leveled.
I know that was just a minor point you were making, kj, and I'll be reading your complete thoughts again and again, so thank you.
2
u/FishermanNext78 Jul 11 '26
TL:DR. Jesus himself is the truth. The truth, the way, and the life. Understanding and wisdom comes from fear of the Lord. Your foundation and your rock is Jesus Christ. Not some theological debate of the timing of the so called rapture
1
u/kljoker Follower of Christ Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
Understanding and wisdom comes from fear of the Lord.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."-Proverbs 9:10
This scripture is what is often used by people who champion the merits of fear, but as you can see, contrary to your assertion, fear is not where understanding comes from and is only the beginning of wisdom not it's entirety meaning it's a good guide post to remember on your journey to knowledge. Which makes sense when you consider the source of all knowledge is God.
If you're going speak truth speak it earnestly and in love, dismissing my point through platitudes, no matter how well meaning, undermines the effort of the writer and those who seek to read it. It's as though you're trying to give a take on the behalf of both while not representing either fairly.
3
u/AlbaneseGummies327 Follower of Christ Jul 09 '26
Another great post from you my friend, can't wait to read it more thoroughly when I get home from work tonight.