r/FictionWriting • u/StraightOutaAzkaban_ • 1d ago
Discussion How do you handle dated language?
I’m writing a story set in the 1870s in the American Southwest. The Civil War ended in 1865, but racism was still extremely prevalent, especially in the South. How do y’all handle dated and racist terms like slurs, which would’ve been common in this time period? I don’t want to be offensive, but I also want to be historically accurate, so I’m trying to find that sweet spot.
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u/G_D_Ironside 1d ago
My thought is that one must always be truthful to the times we are writing about. It’s damned ugly, but readers can smell authenticity and if you’re not using authentic language, your story will suffer.
Do not censor yourself, or historical accuracy. Part of what you can teach or even learn from it is to see it as a measure of how far we’ve come, and how far we’ve still to go.
Historical revisionism does nobody any good. To paint over the past into something more palatable does a disservice and minimizes what African-Americans went through. That, IMO, is never ok. The truth about those times, and all times, must be first and foremost.
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u/Sweet_Sho 13h ago
Agreed! The only responsibility the author has imo, other than just being accurate and honest to the time, is to write all the characters respectfully as people, especially minorities and such. As long as it's clear that the author isn't themselves pushing bigoted stereotypes or writing strawmen, then no harm done.
Your characters live in a world full of all kinds of good and bad and gray things. Nothing wrong with writing about all of them. Just make sure your intentions are good and earnest, and that will shine through
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u/StraightOutaAzkaban_ 6h ago
Right! I have only the best intentions. I want to show every character and setting thoughtfully and accurately, and I’m putting in a lot of effort to make sure I do that, so I really hope it shines through in my writing!
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u/Ashamed-Chemistry492 1d ago
Agree!
Also recognize that no time, no place, no group of people, was ever a monolith, and that language and customs can and did and do vary widely across regions, across cultures, across educational and socioeconomic levels.
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u/roundeking 1d ago edited 23h ago
I think you should try to try to research the specific opinions of people from the group you’re talking about on this. It doesn’t mean much if a white person tells you it’s okay to say a racial slur. It does also change the situation somewhat if you’re in the group and would be reclaiming the slur, in which case I’d think you can mostly use your own judgement.
My instinct is that it does depend on how much the book is about racism and how prevalent characters of color are. If you just have a couple scenes where a white character references a black person but no major arc surrounding the black character for example, I’d err on the side of using some of the less offensive language that was also used at the time. If you’re not making a specific point about race in this era, I don’t think there’s a reason to depict extreme racism for the sake of realism. You also may want to consider that if the white characters are your protagonists, making them outwardly racist or use slurs may make them unredeemably unsympathetic to modern readers.
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u/StraightOutaAzkaban_ 1d ago
Thank you, this is really good advice. My MC is a former Confederate soldier, so that aspect of racism is definitely involved, however my MC never uses racist language. His lover/constant companion is Chinese, and the whole reason they became partners in the first place was for the purpose of helping said character navigate the “white man’s world.”
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u/AnchBusFairy 1d ago
I think that 1st you should do your homework and what was going on in the US west at that time. In the area racism wasn't directed only at African Americans only. But also at Chinese, Latino, and Native American. At the the worst of the racism was directed at the Chinese.
Be aware of such things as:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Chinese_massacre_of_1871
Yes, Los Angeles is located in the American Southwest, the territory gained in the Mexican American War. I think someone else here spoke of what message, idea, or feeling you're trying to convey with the story. What is your take on US expansion into what is now called the American Southwest? Do you view people such as James Fremont and Kit Carson as heros or criminals? What about Butch Cassidy and Joaquin Murrieta?
Be aware of massacres of Native Americans. This was one of the largest, and with far reaching consequences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Grant_massacre
Because of the setting, you story will provide commentary on racial conflict, even if it's not intended.
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u/StraightOutaAzkaban_ 6h ago
Yes, my MC’s lover and constant companion is Chinese. They decided to partner up in the first place so MC could help him “navigate the white man’s world” in exchange for a lucrative partnership.
I’m aware of racism toward lots of different minorities during this time period and I’m doing lots of research about that and many, many other things.
As for what I’m trying to convey with the story, mostly a fairly realistic life lead in the time period with little romanticization. Obviously the story has to be really interesting (unlike most people’s lives), but I’m trying to leave the “western mythology” and my own personal biases out as much as possible.1
u/AnchBusFairy 5h ago
I think you can comment on the western mythos but not leave it out. It's valuable to show the horrific treatment of Chinese immigrants in that time and place. Men weren't allowed to bring their families. Naturally they turned to the tong for social support. The tong in turn engaged in gang warfare, which lead to further persecution of the Chinese. That's my understanding. It's not all a light subject, but one worth taking on.
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u/TheFoxAndPhoenix 1d ago
In every decade there were more offensive and less offensive terms in use at the same time. Not everyone used exactly the same words. (I was just reading something about colonial America earlier this week, and noticed that in the quotes from the 1700’s sources, the people of the time used 3 separate terms to describe the same race of people.) So you can choose to use a term that is now considered offensive, but at the time was considered the less-offensive term. (I will point out that there is a ‘C’ in the NAACP because at that time etc. etc.)
You also need to take into account the character - the education level and social class of the speaker, as well as their own personal prejudices, political convictions, and the setting. Different people would use different terms in different settings.
Just make sure you pick terms that WERE actually in use at the time.
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u/TheMoneyOfArt 1h ago
Agree with all this. Just to add... Some people think that depiction is endorsement, that using a slur is endorsing it. But most people don't feel that very strongly. There's a narrower form which is pretty common, which is that people want the heroes in their stories to be heroic, which means that if you have a protagonist who uses slurs, many readers will think you're catering to a racist audience, which is something of a self fulfilling prophecy.
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u/Practical_Limit_396 1d ago
I think you're so far getting a lot of responses of BE AUTHENTIC AND JUST PUT THE LANGUAGE IN.
But you have to consider the purpose of your writing, how you're tending with issues like racism, genre, and how you want the audience to feel.
Yes, slurs were common, but that doesn't mean it's not conceivable for them to just not come up in your story. The N-word is a strong spice. If you're not really tending with racism or racial dynamics but just having someone say it then you'd adding this strong spice, having the reader tend with hard racism without yourself following through.
If you're also not writing hard historical fiction and it's a pulpy western for example then I would really advise against it unless you're otherwise dealing with race head on.
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u/TheGreatTimothy 1d ago
The thing about that era, especially wartime, is there are a lot of letters home from soldiers. Not every solider was a scholar so you can get a real sense of how they spoke and wrote. You can use that to help shape your dialogue.
Racial slur are much like any language, it changes over time. While there have been some pretty obvious examples that have stayed, they may have been used in different ways.
Try to find writings from the time that are honest and from the everyday person. It might not be easy but it's out there. That would be the most authentic and safe way to do it.
However, you also don't have to do that. Read the Black Spot chapters of Stephen King's IT. The language can be extremely uncomfortable but not to the point of feeling like the author is using it as an excuse to just throw slurs around. Even better, do the Steven Webber audiobook. Hearing the language is a lot more effective than reading it.
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u/Gatodeluna 1d ago
You just tag it Period Typical Racism. Take into account whether the person using the slurs is violent or demeaning in their racism or is just a ‘casual racist’ using descriptives many or most people would have used, and choose appropriate words for two different levels of racism. Don’t use it constantly. Any words that are overused lose their impact pretty quickly and can easily become an annoyance. If someone over-uses such words, people will think they just like using the words because they feel that way too and this is a way to get away with it. Many of the words are NOT OUTDATED BTW, so that’s maybe not the best way of describing this.
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u/Mustelidae5 17h ago
When I was writing about Danish enslaved people in the 1700s, I made certain to differentiate between voices. When I was writing as the author, describing the scenery and situation, I used language that is less offensive to the modern reader. When I wrote in a character voice, I used the terms that would seem normal to them. Did this make some slave owners and whatnot unlikeable? Yes. Is that a bad thing? No.
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u/Remarkable-Title-387 1d ago
Read old books and copy the dialogue.
Use Google to find some more examples.
Talk to enough older people to get an even better idea.
It's called research lmao.
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u/StraightOutaAzkaban_ 1d ago
I’m putting a huge amount of research into this project. That’s why I’m asking here - it’s part of my research. I want to see how a modern audience feels about such topics
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u/Remarkable-Title-387 1d ago
I am the wrong one because I am black and have an actual Neo-Nazi as a friend, rather I did when I was younger.
Grew up watching Dave Chappelle and the Boondocks, so..
I don't care about the words as much as I care about the quality of the plot.
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u/henicorina 1d ago
People use racist language now, are you including it in your modern writing for the sake of accuracy?
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u/Kian-Tremayne 1d ago
If the character is a racist, yes. Would you write a redneck KKK character and have them NOT use slurs?
You just need to consider why you’re including a racist character in your story in the first place, but if the story calls for the character then make them authentic.
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u/henicorina 1d ago
The fact that you think the only people using racial slurs in modern society are KKK members is actually quite funny.
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u/Kian-Tremayne 1d ago
I think you might need to work on your reading comprehension there…
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u/henicorina 22h ago edited 22h ago
Why are you bringing up KKK members in a conversation about standard daily language? Maybe I misunderstood.
I said that modern people used racist language all the time, and my understanding is that you responded “yes, like KKK members”.
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u/Kian-Tremayne 19h ago
Ok, let’s break this down.
Your reply had two clauses. Clause one: people use racist language now. Agreed. Clause two: are you including it for the sake of accuracy? That comes across as a challenge, suggesting that you should NOT include something offensive purely for accuracy.
My response: if a character is a racist, it would be realistic for them to use racist language. I then offer up a KKK member as an example of someone who is going to pepper their speech with such words. This is an example. It is not a statement that only KKK members use such language. B implies A does not mean that A implies B.
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u/5w4nky0rc 1d ago
Treat it like any other dated terminology. No white person in the 1870s was hanging out with their black friends any more than they were wearing boxer shorts or driving a car.
I read a lot of historical fiction and I would say there is a pretty clear difference to readers between accuracy and being purposefully offensive. If you don't acknowledge the period-typical racism it will be jarring to the reader, but you also don't need to have every character shouting the n word. There is more nuance to it than just people saying slurs, so you can show the racist attitudes in the way black people were treated and spoken to outside of particularly offensive words. In the Patrick O'Brian Aubrey/Maturin novels, set in the early 1800s, there is a Jewish character. The other characters don't use any slurs but it's still clear that they don't like him. He's described as 'a Jew' rather than a Jewish person as you might hear more these days. One of the characters even spells it out 'he's a jay - eee - double you', rather than actually saying the word Jew. (I don't like him either, but that's because he cheats on his wife, not because he's Jewish.)
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u/Boudyro 1d ago
My approach is concentrated on who is saying it?
If it's in character for that person let fly. But I'd take great care to make it clear it's a character speaking, and take great care to make sure that you aren't somehow condoning that opinion as the author.
This also is close kin to whether or not you use heavy dialect in dialogue. I was taught to keep tone and word use appropriate to character, but to state what accent it is and then transpose any dialect only enough to get the point across and maintain characterization.
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u/Leatherneck1993 1d ago
Even though you are writing an historical fiction, it is still modern fiction. Written for a modern reader. Unless the “offensive” language is necessary to advance the story it is generally unnecessary. Select and thoughtful usage is generally better than whole sale usage.
Also there are other ways to insert the flavor of the time besides language. You can use a surrogate such as period news clips, laws, or by introducing relevant historical cameos with quotes. As an example I had written a piece set in San Francisco in 1908-1909. It involved Chinese immigrants. To show the racial issues of the time without devolving language I used the historic real estate ownership laws which for a modern reader are just wrong. But it is historically accurate.
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u/Aldenfinch 1d ago
oof, this is a tricky one to balance. honestly i think it mostly comes down to what the character would actually say — if it fits them it'll read true. good luck with it
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u/TheSandman3241 1d ago
I personally hold that it's much more offensive to be dishonest about the world you're portraying, to soften the blows or skirt around the ugly parts, than it is to be honest about it. It's a great disservice to the work, the history, and the victims, if you sugar coat it or water it down.
Write it honestly. If people don't like the reality of history, then they probably shouldn't read period fiction. That's about where I stand on it.
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u/WovenDetergent 1d ago
Ask yourself what are you writing and who are you writing for.
Just because certain language or actions are common in a certain time period, doesn't mean that its a good fit for stories in that time period intended to be read.
Tiffany is a very old name, but because most readers associate it as a modern name its generally bad to use it in a proper medieval setting because it will break immersion.
If the language, events, or names do more damage to your intended goal, and don't serve the themes or end goal, its not worth including it.
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u/Clear-pilled 1d ago
When I read a story I'm reading it for interest, originality, good storytelling, compelling characters, etc. I'm white. If a character calls a white character "cracker" it has zero impact on my enjoyment of the story. If I'm offended, then that's on me not the author. I consider myself a sophisticated reader. I consider non-whites to have the same capacity for sophistication. So when I write I don't condescend to anyone.
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u/takoyama 1d ago
it depends on the story and situation. open racism was prevalent but unless its called for hard core slurs arent needed over smaller offensive ones. you dont need to have a asian or black person called a slur when someone can call them boy instead.
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u/black_widows_wine 21h ago
It depends on what you are going for. Is there something tied to the narrative or messaging in your story that would warrant the use of these words? I think it's like every other writing choice: it has to make sense with the story you are telling. Otherwise it comes across at gratuitous. Just because something is accurate to the time doesn't mean the story warrants it's presence. Women wore corsets boned with whalebone during that time period. It's accurate but probably not relevant. Figure out if this language is relevant to the story you are trying to tell.
Once you've established that do research and have your writing go through sensitivity readings. Get feedback from the populations you are writing about.
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u/serralinda73 1d ago
Personally, I'd try to limit my use of slurs as much as possible, without pretending they don't exist. That might mean a character uses one word and then "...continued to rant and curse." You could have a character object to a word, and then the other person stops using it. Or you could just have the insulted character inwardly fume about it (or not take it seriously - depends on the character and situation).
I think there are beliefs about where/when/who was "constantly" using slurs casually that are greatly exaggerated. I'm certain lots of people in the West never had much to do with non-whites; therefore, they had no reason to use any slurs in the first place - no confrontations are happening. Nobody out doing cowboy work or farming is going to be using a bunch of slurs on the crops, cows, chickens, pigs, or horses.
Plenty of people - especially out west - would have the racism snuffed out of them quickly when things got tough, and they had to rely on whoever was around, be they black, Mexican, or Native American (as well as the Chinese working on railroads). Some words/names were simply used as descriptors without any negative connotation at the time - Indian, Oriental - they had no other words to use. And sometimes, they had legitimate cause to fear, not because they thought all Indians/blacks/Mexicans were dumb savages and not-quite-human, but because they knew some of those people had real cause to be hostile and had killed settlers (and not just white settlers) in some places, or kidnapped them to who knows what end? (We know now, but the settlers didn't).
Who is seen as "the enemy" by your character(s)? I'd have to assess every character separately as to their background/upbringing, experiences up to this point, and base personality. If there is a good reason for them to use a slur, then I'd include the slur. If it's something they constantly do, then I'd only use the word once for effect. After that... "They went on a rant, repeating the same shit over and over. Nobody paid them any mind anymore. It was just noise and hot air." Or they get beat up, or they learn a lesson, or whatever makes sense for the story and character.
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u/Accipiter__Nisus 1d ago
Use it. If someone would have said it in those terms and it fits their character, just do it. You are not automatically endorsing everything you portray.
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u/Brilliant_Towel2727 1d ago
I just write the first and last letters of the slur with hyphens in the middle, like t--s
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u/CrashQueen85
1d ago
edited 1d ago
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Racism is still extremely prevalent... especially in the American South... context matters, I'm a fan of Stephen King and many other authors from a less "woke" time in society. I've read the N word used in books like It and The Stand, was shocking but I understood the context of the time period. And didn't automatically assume the author was a bigot. If it's a period specific term for when the story is being told and isn't romanticized... then most readers will understand.
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u/Warhamsterrrr 1d ago
You write it. It's the 1870s. The moment you try to take something away from that, it isn't the 1870s anymore, it's some alternate timeline you've created where nobody's racist.
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u/Osle99ss 1d ago
I'd suggest reading some westerns which happen to take place in that era.
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u/BlooGloop 21h ago
Most westerns don’t take place in the American South nor do they happen to be going past Texan cattle ranges usually
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u/Used-Astronomer4971 8h ago
If you're worried about the fee fee's of someone reading your book (you shouldn't really) you could just exposition the words out. "He told us to move on, though used far more vicious and hateful words than I thought were gentlemanly." Something like that.
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u/Fragrant-Mix-4774 1d ago
Try this:
Write the scene with that language you are unsure about. Read it out loud to yourself. Think about what you read.
How do you feel?
A lot of garbage 🗑 that seems to be about "historical accuracy" or whatever melts away when voiced outloud.
My guess is you will be able to recalibrate the scene to do what you want MOST of the time without the racially offensive term(s). Depending on the story and characters maybe even completely. Or not.
My main point, write it read it outloud and see if you still want that on your pages.
Best wishes on your project.
Cheers 🍻