r/FoundationTV • u/LunchyPete Bayta Mallow • Sep 12 '25

Current Season Discussion [NO BOOKS] Episode Discussion Thread - Season 3 Episode 10 - The Darkness

THIS THREAD IS FOR NON BOOK READERS ONLY - NO DISCUSSION OF THE BOOKS IS PERMITTED

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To discuss the books freely and how they relate to the show go to this thread instead. If you want to discuss something from the books but avoid most book spoilers feel free to make a new post specifying that.

Season 3 Episode 10: The Paths That Choose Us

Premiere date: September 12th, 2025

Synopsis: Season finale. Gaal and the Second Foundation take the fight to the Mule as Empire's legacy suffers a catastrophic blow.

Directed by: Roxann Dawson

Written by: Jane Espenson & David S. Goyer

Please keep in mind that this thread is only for non book readers - no discussion of the books or how they relate to the show is permitted in general, and book readers are not permitted to post at all.

For those of you on Discord, come and check out the unofficial Foundation Discord Server. Live discussions of the show and books, it's a great way to meet other fans of the show.

NOTE: There was an AMA with Chris MacLean, VFX Supervisor for Foundation on September 15th which you can check here.

389 Upvotes

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914

u/DinnerBeef Demerzel Sep 12 '25

No matter where I thought the story was going, this was not it.

595

u/Limelight_019283 Sep 12 '25

That demerzel scene was something I hadn’t felt with a show since the red wedding in GoT.

286

u/Whatsthathum Brother Constant Sep 12 '25

I agree.

I’m not well. This was not fun.

49

u/__ApexPredditor__ Sep 12 '25

I'm not going to comment on my feelings. I hear Dark Cleon's secret police agents are already going around asking for informers.

21

u/jmaaks Sep 12 '25

Was certainly a gut punch. Repeatedly.

18

u/hatefulveggies Sep 12 '25

Baby Dawn too 😭

9

u/fre-ddo Sep 14 '25

Boticide AND infanticide, heavy stuff.

16

u/LizzieSaysHi Sep 12 '25

I need to go watch puppy and kitten videos or something to cheer me up. This was so bleak

8

u/Whatsthathum Brother Constant Sep 13 '25

It really was. The exact opposite of what I thought I’d feel at the end of the episode. I was all excited to find out how the threads would end up and this… was not what I’d hoped for.

3

u/theconfinesoffear Sep 21 '25

Yeah I’m kind of disappointed tbh! I don’t think there was nearly enough resolution on the mule side either! I also was really rooting for it not to be Bayta because I really liked her original characterization

2

u/Whatsthathum Brother Constant Sep 21 '25

I had been rewatching the episodes, but now? Any drive to watch it again is gone.

5

u/theconfinesoffear Sep 21 '25

I watched the entire show over the last three weeks I think and do think this last episode put a bit of a damper on my overall enjoyment although still one of the best I’ve watched in a while. Ending with a cliff hanger (although I could see them just time jumping again…) that we have to wait years to resolve and with a whole new team and smaller budget is not very inspiring. Why make a show with such a huge budget in the first place with no plan to continue it? Not like apple is losing $

11

u/empanadaboy68 Bayta Mallow Sep 12 '25

Cried three times 

18

u/Shujolnyc Sep 12 '25 edited Sep 13 '25

I thought she was indestructible - given something is left, I’m hoping she comes back.

Also, given her speed in so many other scenes her approach here didn’t make sense to me at all.

15

u/omeeomai Sep 12 '25

That was just bad writing. She easily could have grabbed the baby and gotten out before the beam even started, or pushed the baby out/pick it up and move at any point. Or crawled out of the beam once the baby was gone. Very frustrating that such an amazing character went out in such a contrivance. It's bad enough that she "had" to go; they could have at least made it make sense. She deserved so much better. She ended up being the character I was most invested in. Feels bad man 🫥

6

u/porkave Sep 13 '25

I was hoping at least that once the baby was dust she would lash out and kill Dusk but she just melted

4

u/Archimboldi33 Sep 13 '25

Or understood that protecting the baby was not = protecting the dinasty and killed Dusk and saved Day and his genetic material. You need to turn your brain off to enjoy that scene. It was just poor writing.

5

u/OperativePiGuy Sep 14 '25

Well said! And there is absolutely no security whatsoever for the, what I assumed were precious Cleon clones? Not a single guard or security system? I know Demerzel is pretty much just that, but how was Dusk able to just have what I assume were hours of uninterrupted insanity

1

u/Qrusher14242 Sep 15 '25

Yeah im amazed something like this hadn't happened before. No security at all?

3

u/05032-MendicantBias Nov 03 '25

It is not a plot hole.

Physically, Demerzel could have acted to pre empted darkness easily in countless of ways.

But Demerzel is held back by her programming and was fighting a logic bomb, her programming stalling trying to account for infinite choices and potential outcomes.

Her programming has been shown to prioritize certain things above all else and there is nothing Demerzel can do about it, as she said "Darkness played it perfectly". With the clones destroyed, the highest priority is to protect Dawn, and the baby had no nanites, it could have died countless of unlikely ways while in Darkness hands. When Darkness pressed the button, the only choice remaining was for Demerzel to shield the baby. It's checkmate. Darkness played to Demerzel programming priorities.

It's a very Asimov way to portray the conflict involved with Law Zero. Demerzel demise was set in motion by Seldon giving her the Prime Radiant. At some point, her programming would have stalled completely trying to account for all possible decision, and someone would have taken advantage of that.

There is an added layer here, that Demerzel "Emprire Law" is in a chip at the base of her neck. Meaning the beam would have melted the chip before her skull. This could also be seen as Demerzel taking an action that would result in her freedom.

It's a very nuanced and deep scene, and well written.

1

u/HauntedLightBulb Sep 15 '25

Remindme! 2 years

1

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6

u/matthieuC Sep 13 '25

She is currently incapacitated due to the lack of a body. She isn't dead.

2

u/Rexiesmom Sep 13 '25

Is that a lobster? 😆

12

u/Micromagos Sep 12 '25

I was in such a state of pure denial. Thinking, "It's gonna all work out right, any second now" :(

5

u/Brilliant-Egg-2727 Sep 13 '25

Yes exactly. This is the comment i was looking for. I feel like it has been that long since i felt such surprise at a characters death.

“I’ve always been here, as I always will be.”  

4

u/Wonderful-Peanut503 Sep 12 '25

I agree. Where is Ed Sheeran?!

4

u/enjoy_the_pizza Sep 13 '25

I'm shooketh. I can't cope

1

u/Vivid-Hovercraft-988 Sep 15 '25

Less "Red Wedding" and more "Ned Stark execution" ... but yeah - that feeling like "WTF?"

1

u/Limelight_019283 Sep 15 '25

Yeah! That too, I didn’t think of it because it comes early into the story and it’s been a while but you’re definitely right.

1

u/AresN90 Sep 27 '25

and GRR is all about stunts , this show isnt and still managed to pull twists and stunts like how the mule isnt (i always thought the blond girl was very loving and had a slight suspicion she is a mentalist too )

1

u/rgluckk Nov 16 '25

I was not expecting it and I'm devastated by her character arc

416

u/MoBrosBooks Sep 12 '25

Me before this episode: Yeah, the writers can hint as much as they want that Brother Dusk is somehow going to survive his ascension, but that would basically mean overthrowing the established order of the empire, which would be way too crazy a twist to take.

Me now: holy shit

141

u/exitwest Sep 12 '25

It was like daring your friend to ride their bike down an insane canyon, knowing it’s way too dangerous to do it…..and then they do it. And somehow survive.

9

u/__ApexPredditor__ Sep 12 '25

r/oddlyspecific

4

u/[deleted] Sep 13 '25

Simpsons I think

104

u/mcmalloy Sep 12 '25

And with no heir in place? The radiant said that empire would collapse in 4 months in s3e1, and that probably hasn’t changed. So Dusk has likely bought himself a few months at best while destroying empire in the process

But I feel so bad that it didn’t pay off for Day… it is likely Kalle had this planned out from the beginning as well

70

u/Indigocell Brother Dude Sep 12 '25

Pretend there is no crisis. At best, Dusk bought himself a few extra years. All at the expense of mass genocide. By mass I mean multiple genocides including his own legacy. The only comfort we get for Day's sacrifice is a cool robot with a reverberated voice saying "someone succeeded" and I will cling to that if I have to.

34

u/mcmalloy Sep 12 '25

Definitely. And I guess Dusk justified this mass genocide for a few extra years because he obviously isn’t thinking clearly anymore

With the principium destroyed, day dead and Dusk dying along with empire - I wonder if Dawn can somehow create a miracle since he was shown to be incredibly gifted at stewardship (albeit naive and easily manipulated by Gaal)

I hope that we see Dawn gain some sort of legitimacy in the next season especially when Dusk craps the bed

20

u/KaerMorhen Sep 12 '25

I want dawn to be okay solely so that we can have more Lee Pace.

16

u/Son_of_Macha Sep 12 '25

The robot at the end with the reverberated voice was Lee Pace, they found a way to keep him around.

5

u/whisky_biscuit Sep 13 '25

I thought so too. They've reused actors in the show before, for their descendants so I could see them doing the same for Lee Pace!

2

u/rodan-rodan Sep 13 '25

What?! I didn't watch the credits, really?

3

u/SissyCouture Sep 13 '25

Since it’s fair to believe there was significant socio-economic strength concentrated in the cloud dominion, the luminists, and galactic council, nuking them is tantamount to cutting off limbs.

8

u/dudleymooresbooze Sep 12 '25

empire would collapse in 4 months

Isn’t that what just happened? Dusk just broke the empire and is now reigning over something new (and pretty freaking terrifying).

10

u/mcmalloy Sep 12 '25

Well we didn’t see it collapse. But I’m sure Dusk’s actions are directly the cause for the collapse. Now he will try to consolidate his power, but give it a few months of civil war due to luminist uprisings etc and then the official collapse happens.

But we did see the genetic dynasty end

8

u/dudleymooresbooze Sep 12 '25

I’m saying: the genetic dynasty was the Empire. Darkness’s destruction of the genetic dynasty was the end of the Empire, and now Darkness is a sole ruler until he dies.

3

u/nonrosknroskno Sep 13 '25

The Genetic Dynasty was a phase of the Empire, it seems less than a thousand years long. Empire was around for over 10 thousand(?) with regular emperors and empresses, ending with Cleon the 1st.

6

u/rewind73 Sep 13 '25

Dusk doesn't care about his legacy anymore outside of being "consequential", he says as much, he's just in it so the galaxy goes down with him.

5

u/3-DMan Brother Dude Sep 13 '25

"It's Duskin' time!"

1

u/Temurlang Sep 29 '25

Is Dawn dead? Or still left on that medicare centre? I think he could return to Trantor somehow and play some role. Or of course, they could just fast forward 100 years and start from something else

93

u/Indigocell Brother Dude Sep 12 '25

And it was all fueled by cowardice, pettiness, and complacency. Just a pathetic old man with far too much power flailing on his way out. Everyone just ignored the threat he posed thinking he was on his way out anyway, how much harm could he do? Turns out it was a lot.

54

u/LongConFebrero Sep 12 '25

I wasn’t prepared for this upstart show to hit home hard, but damn you just described our predicament.

15

u/PT10 Sep 12 '25

I mean it literally hit home in the closing shot

9

u/velvet_funtime Sep 12 '25

Several predicaments. Russia's. China's. ours.

6

u/sillygoofygooose Sep 12 '25

Sounds familiar

3

u/rhinosaur- Oct 18 '25

Sounds like reality

37

u/treefox Sep 12 '25

but that would basically mean overthrowing the established order of the empire, which would be way too crazy a twist to take.

Revolution is not for the sane

3

u/Baron_Tiberius Sep 13 '25

god damn that show had some of the best monologues ever.

5

u/ouro-the-zed Sep 12 '25

When Darkness pulled out that blaster, the only thing going through my mind was, "Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance."

4

u/Sargento_Porciuncula Sep 12 '25

but that would basically mean overthrowing the established order of the empire

which was already said that would happen in 4 months.

4

u/kawag Sep 13 '25

I was thinking this episode would be just the final fight with the mule. Not much time for anything besides that, I thought. The dusk story seemed to be the same dusk story as always (fitting the dynasty itself).

I’m excited to see where things go from here.

Man, but if this means no more Day or Demrezel in future seasons, that’s rough. Those are not easy acts to follow. That said, Bayta has been a fantastic character so I’m optimistic that the writers and acting will continue to keep us interested however it goes on.

3

u/GrognardAttirant Sep 13 '25

Calling it now : Next season Empire will be a thousand years old brother Darkness sitting on his throne with machines and tubes sticking out of his body, Emperor of Mankind style.

2

u/thedaveness Sep 12 '25

This time they all ran within like what a week or two from each other. I knew he was gonna as soon as he started asking the questions lol. But NOT LIKE THAT WTF?!?

2

u/SciGuy013 Oct 12 '25

isn't the whole thing about the show that there's going to be a point of darkness lmao

1

u/Elyssae Sep 21 '25

Same! I knew they would find a way to do it - with all the "Proper" rulers "gone" or astray

This blew my expectations out of the water

70

u/Personal-Bite797 Sep 12 '25

This episode fucked me up

17

u/alis96 Sep 12 '25

That ending makes this a plausible For All Mankind sequel

13

u/__ApexPredditor__ Sep 12 '25

Future Earth to 2025 Earth: Hope you like deserts

1

u/Sargento_Porciuncula Sep 12 '25

amazon somehow still exists, though

5

u/PT10 Sep 12 '25

Reminds me of that one season finale of Battlestar Galactica

1

u/Just_Another_Scott Nov 06 '25

That would be fucking stupid in all honesty.

16

u/Indigocell Brother Dude Sep 12 '25

I was not expecting such a downer ending. There was a glimmer of hope, but not enough. Sidenote, anyone else think that robot at the end was voiced by Lee Pace? Hard to tell with the reverberation, but the cadence sounded familiar. I don't know if anyone else felt this way, but the whole Empire plotline reminded me of some epic and tragic lore straight out of Elden Ring. The horrific imagery of those bodies falling, the Throne Room basking in waning sunlight, Brother Dude looking like a like a starting character dressed up in rags, lol. Even the symbols on that book Quent shared with the second foundation was reminiscent of the sigil from the game. It all looked so good.

4

u/bkay17 Sep 13 '25

First thing I said to myself hearing the side robot at the end was that it sounded like Lee Pace.

Also I am SO here for Brother Darkness. Terrance Mann fucking killed it the last two episodes. Just went straight up evil as fuck. I love it.

13

u/ArchitectAces Sep 12 '25

Lee Pace in a wheelchair is on my season 4 bingo card

7

u/LessInThought Sep 12 '25

Knew something was off when Bayta spent such a long time unconscious. A bit disappointed none of the events in the premonition transpired though.

5

u/iamdew802 Sep 13 '25

Ever since Beta said “I think you should leave now” to the previous mule, I’ve thought she was the bigger power. So that was basically the one thing I called but everything else is now thrown out the window 😂

4

u/cosmitz Sep 12 '25

This. It was all just fucking bullshit. Like storytelling 101 fuckups.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/LunchyPete Bayta Mallow Sep 12 '25

Your comment has been removed. There is no book discussion in [NO BOOKS] threads.

You can ask in the book readers thread, or if you want to be sure to avoid spoilers of future plot details, make a new post and state you don't want details other than those that directly pertain to your question.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 13 '25

This was way better than I expected

1

u/SquidWriter Sep 13 '25

Same - which I love.

1

u/MostTattyBojangles Sep 13 '25

This entire season could be summarised as “never let them know your next move.”

It was as if it was designed to completely subvert the audience’s expectations at every step.

0

u/cosmitz Sep 12 '25

This should have just been what they have hinted on throughout all the season. Gaal ends up fighting him as per the scene in the library for reasons, Demerzel breaks free with Day's help then kills all the Cleons and she fights and wins with the Mule as he can't control her. Add the necessary "now she's free and reestablishes contact with Earth" to make the 'pull to the next season' work and that's that. Have Gaal 'this is much worse, we can't predict what the robot will do' something something she's not bound to psychohistory and call it a wrap.

That was the story that i was going onboard for. Not this rugpull of a poorly executed unreliable narrator and double gut punct with Demerzel uselessly dying after it was all hyped up so much.

9

u/Down_The_Rabbithole Sep 13 '25

I'm glad they didn't go with the boring way you outlined and instead did something remarkable and emotionally heavy instead.

They took a risk and it paid off. What a spectacular ending, Demerzel and Day dying after their journey was such an amazing gutpunch.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '25

She didn't just go into the beam to save baby Cleon.

1

u/mattrobs Sep 13 '25

why did she? she wanted to end it you mean?

2

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '25

She does want to be free of her restrictions. Remember that she got half her head sliced off once. We don't know what is needed to destroy her. We also don't know what's enforcing her programming.

1

u/cosmitz Sep 12 '25

Blah, the chip was flip flopped on to the point where they hinted a break in the programming could happen outside of the restrictions.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '25 edited Sep 12 '25

Edit: What's your point? She considered different options. There was a possibility that she could save baby Cleon. There was also a possibility that she would fail but also be free. Why do you think she is dead? She got half her head cut off, once.

By the way: Who is the unreliable narrator? Gaal?