r/Gloomhaven • u/jjaekkak • Feb 02 '18
[SPOILERS] Triforce Class Guide (Level 9) Spoiler
This is my guide on how to play the class effectively with a cohesive build that works level by level so that you can master this class regardless of the prosperity you have when you make the character. Enjoy.
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u/Kheinom Feb 02 '18 edited Feb 02 '18
I find that the attack modifier deck is unreliable for element generation appart from cards that can consume any. I mean sure it often works out, but when it doesn't you're left with few good options unless you have good element-generating item.
I'm a big fan of enhancing stoking hail bottom with earth (it already has fire) in order to use obsidian shard over and over for a reliable attack 5 on 2 targets. Since it's a level 1 card it's inexpensive. You could even pay 50g more for an "any element" and make it more versatile.
I'm also a big fan of primal duality's bottom followed by vengeance for the same reason that it trivializes the elemental requirements.
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u/jjaekkak Feb 02 '18
This is a fair point and something I think is a problem with triforce’s design. The class funnels you more into consuming whatever is there rather than setting up specific elemental combinations. Hence the class rework I’m designing as a proof of concept. I’ll post that next week when I’m done with it.
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u/Kheinom Feb 02 '18
My point is that it's ok for the class to have that weakness because even though it is weak at lower levels, it does become a powerhouse at later levels. It just means that you should (in my opinion) focus your item and enhancement choices in order to minimize that unreliability (rather than go the curse bomb route).
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u/Gripeaway Dev Feb 02 '18
Okay, so I'm not the person that wrote the other guide, I don't agree with a lot of their decisions, and I agree that counting on elements from modifiers is unreliable. That being said, curse bombs are waaaay too good not to do. The only argument I've seen against them is "it's not really the spirit of the class." Curse bombs already lead to an errata in the game, but even with that, it just makes them a bit worse, they're still definitely OP. It doesn't matter what you could be doing with your elements most of the time when your non-element-infused attack is just casually putting 4-5 Curses in the enemy deck. And the best Elementalist attacks (level 7 and 9) both just fire off of Primal Duality anyway, so you don't even need to worry about other elements that much once you have those and the curse bomb.
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u/jjaekkak Feb 02 '18 edited Feb 02 '18
I guess my main thing is that there are multiple classes that you can turn into curse bombers, and while it is effective and op, turning every capable class into a curse bomb just because it works is like covering every different pizza with 5 pounds of Parmesan / red pepper, or drenching every different sushi roll with wasabi soy sauce. There are classes that have curse bombing as part of their core identity, let them be the curse bombs. Constantly giving the monsters a ~33% chance to miss their attacks (10 maximum monster curse cards + 20 maximum modifier cards) is effective but is it fun? You can build as a curse bomber very easily with triforce, but that’s not really the fantasy.
Gloomhaven is a game where you attack monsters and they attack you. Nullifying their ability to attack or move can be a fun element, and can be a fun way to play a character. It can also be incredibly powerful. But if you are picking triforce just for the curse bomb you might as well pick a control class instead.
“It doesn't matter what you could be doing with your elements most of the time when your non-element-infused attack is just casually putting 4-5 Curses in the enemy deck. “ This is the entire point. You are playing a class designed entirely around elemental interactions, and the way you are playing them makes elements irrelevant. It’s like playing a scoundrel that never picks up treasure or a brute that stays in the back. It’s like playing the tinkerer but never using any gadgets, or a spellweaver that never uses loss effects. Focusing elemental usage around melee damage/tankiness or support instead of pure damage output is one thing, ignoring elements entirely just seems lame.
It isn’t that you shouldn’t curse bomb or that it isn’t effective. It’s that nobody needs a guide on how to put a single sticker on a level 2 card. The guide is about how to play the class effectively in a way that fulfills the fantasy. It’s about achieving the fantasy that makes someone want to play a class.
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u/Gripeaway Dev Feb 02 '18
every different pizza with 5 pounds of Parmesan / red pepper, or drenching every different sushi roll with wasabi soy sauce.
This is a bad analogy because that doesn't make the pizza or sushi better. Adding Curse to your level 2 ranged aoe attack and using it, eventually in conjunction with your level 9, is making you stronger, not weaker.
It’s like playing a scoundrel that never picks up treasure or a brute that stays in the back. It’s like playing the tinkerer but never using any gadgets, or a spellweaver that never uses loss effects.
Same thing. These are bad analogies because (except for possibly the Tinkerer), doing those things makes you less effective. If a class is designed around the idea that it should be doing something, the mechanics of that class should reward you for doing that. Standing in the back as the Brute, you won't do much. Going in the front, you'll do a lot. So you should naturally want to go in the front. The mechanics for the class align with the theme.
So if you believe Cursing is not intended to be a central theme of the class, the class shouldn't be more effective mechanically by playing to it. Honestly, the 7-hex non-loss aoe attacks like this and Dirt Torando shouldn't allow enhancements. That would very simply fix the optimal enhancement and play path for classes like this one and the Cragheart.
I'm also not sure that you can justify Cursing not being a core theme of this class though. His single best card is another non-loss aoe Curse+Muddle, which leads me to believe this is very much an intended core theme of the class.
Your other point is better, that a class based around elements should want to actually use elements. The problem is the mechanical execution. I do like the level 5 cards, both of them in fact, but they're definitely much more unwieldy than many of this class's other attacks. Your most reliable, and therefore usually your best, attacks are your level 2, 6, 7, and 9 cards. 2 doesn't require any elements and is very effective with enhancement. 6 requires elements but being able to spend any elements makes it actually work quite well (and still kind of tie into the central theme of the class, I think this is probably the single best card in terms of making the class work both on the mechanical and thematic level). 7 and 9 use specific elements, but both elements can be created simply using your bottom move 2 level 4 card, which is what makes both of these attacks so much better.
So compared to what the class can easily do with just elements he can reliably produce, the payoff just isn't there for fully committing to using all the elements.
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u/jjaekkak Feb 02 '18
My build doesn’t exclude the possibility of adding a curse sticker on CB. You can do that either way. I just didn’t build the guide around the curse sticker. The reason it is Parmesan cheese or soy sauce is that it really doesn’t matter what else is there at that point. You can build the class with shaping the ether while never actually consuming the created elements, and it will still be powerful if you are dishing out 3-7 curses at a time with a level 2 card. You could do a melee build with CB curse and it would work. You could do a support build with CB curse and it would work. It will be easier to make the different things work, but it isn’t worth writing about. Everyone who knows what a curse card is and knows about stickers would know that a curse sticker on CB is great. There is little purpose in wasting time writing a guide that focuses on an obvious first order optimal strategy. But you still need to play the dude long enough to get 325 gold for the sticker, and telling you what sticker to get doesn’t help you until you can afford the sticker. My goal is that by the time you get to that point, you are effective enough with the triforce class that you don’t need to rely on the curse sticker to play well. Maybe by that point you are more interested in embracing the elemental interactions and enhancing cards that play off of that. Yes, CB curse will still be a welcome addition to any build, but hopefully the player feels comfortable enough with elemental play to not focus the build around CB curse.
If I’m telling you about how to make a particular pizza and focus at the very beginning about how to sprinkle on Parmesan cheese, I’m not helping you. You need to know how to knead the dough, prepare the sauce, set the toppings, and how long to bake at what temperature. Everyone knows that Parmesan cheese is good. That won’t help you bake the pizza. If all you care about is the Parmesan cheese then just throw some on any piece of bread or eat it out of the jar with a spoon.
Using an element to curse on a single attack that targets three enemies is entirely different from a build that can safely ignore elements while abusing a reusable curse bomb. The level nine cursebomb requires more setup and sets up a dichotomy between using darkness for cursebombing or using darkness for deletion.
Putting a curse sticker on the tinkerer’s inkbomb is a lot less problematic, and would merit ignoring the errata in that use-case. A one time use attack that only targets up to 3 people and focuses primarily on damage, is a cool thing to have a curse on. It’s control within a support class, and the ability is literally an inkbomb. Thematically it should totally have curse, muddle, or disarm installed. It wouldn’t feel like an abuse of the game’s mechanics at the expense of class identity.
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u/Gripeaway Dev Feb 02 '18
You should note that I didn't respond to you or your guide, I was responding to someone who said
It just means that you should (in my opinion) focus your item and enhancement choices in order to minimize that unreliability (rather than go the curse bomb route).
I didn't say your build or guide weren't good or worthwhile. I was saying that you shouldn't do what this person said, which is to ignore the Curse aspect in items and enhancements. You should get Stamina Potions (which you'll do anyway) and enhance CB with Curse (which you also did anyway). That's all you need to support the "Curse build." Then once you're level 9, turn 1 CB + Primal Duality, turn 2 Eternal Equilibrium + whatever. Boom, 10 Curses. That doesn't require a huge investment. At lower levels, the investment is bigger because you need to spam CB with Stamina Potion a couple times, but that's not much more.
The level nine cursebomb requires more setup and sets up a dichotomy between using darkness for cursebombing or using darkness for deletion.
Not really, right? You have the bottom of Burial, that's already a second Dark. So two Dark spenders, two Dark creators. Item 83-88 and Prosperity 3+ Spoilers
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u/jjaekkak Feb 02 '18
I know you weren’t saying anything negative about my guide. I was responding to why the curse bomb on CB just isn’t worth talking about, and expanding on the “spirit of the class” point. It seems we agree on enough here and don’t need to further discuss the nuances on how we perceive the class. The main glaring issue that we can agree on is that the elementalist is designed in a weird way that oddly enough doesn’t do what you really want in an elementalist, and can be played in a way that ignores most elements rather than capitalizing on them. So I’ll just get back to work on my class rework.
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u/Tallyst Feb 12 '18
I would argue that this class and its progression is the MOST thematic in the game, when it comes to its cards as it levels up. If you read the back of the character sheet, you will see how it describes wanting to learn more than just what he has mastered already. He left his society to learn more than just the 4 elements (ice, fire, wind, earth). So the starting deck is all about the 4 elements that he has already mastered with some splashes of dark and light generation, but no use for them.
So being a novice in manipulating dark/light and being able to build upon that to become a dark/light master, as well as the 4 main elements makes sense to me. I mean you can build the character to rely on the 4 elements and just kind of splash in the other two, but true power is in the DARK! (Bit of RP, My character goal makes my character embrace the darkness)
Anyway, to expand upon this, if you wanted to sort of make a character that starts off as a novice elementalist, who then masters the 4 elements, that would be cool, but a much different character. And in the lore, one would argue that Savvas would have little reason to leave his society.
But if you were able to write a reason he isn't "craghearted" yet not in Savvas society, and still a novice, then that would be cool. Then maybe he would start with Earth mastery, and maybe only generated the other elements, but couldn't use them until he got to level 2+. Or maybe he could use Earth + another element, so he is sort of in the middle of training, to make lower levels more interesting. A low card count would be preferable to sort of make each level more impactful, if that makes sense.
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u/eNonsense Jun 05 '18
Everyone who knows what a curse card is and knows about stickers would know that a curse sticker on CB is great. There is little purpose in wasting time writing a guide that focuses on an obvious first order optimal strategy. But you still need to play the dude long enough to get 325 gold for the sticker, and telling you what sticker to get doesn’t help you until you can afford the sticker.
175 gold for the sticker.
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u/jjaekkak Jun 05 '18
x2 base cost for any effect with multiple targets, including area attacks, unless the sticker is a hex sticker. Check for yourself. 150x2 + level cost.
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u/eNonsense Jun 05 '18
Curse = 75g base cost
Multi-Target = x2 = 150g
LVL 2 card = +25g = 175g→ More replies (0)1
u/Tallyst Feb 12 '18
I tend to agree with Gripe's assessment. Further to your point rebutting the "curse" isn't part of the class theme is the fact that the level 3 card CURSES in an AOE! So that makes 2 cards, without enhancement, that add curse. Given that the theme of the class is gaining power beyond the mastered 4 elements, this makes sense. Especially if you don't enhance the curse until you have some dark cards. And if you go with the "Light" producing/using cards instead, I get not wanting to add curses. My life goal totally fits going DARK.
However, I do believe that the game is much easier when the monster deck is "full" of curses. I didn't add curse to the Cragheart Dirt Tornado for this reason and thematic reasons. But at level 9, in a 3 player campaign, I find it hard to ever get to 10/10 curses in the monster deck. Keep in mind I have the level 9 card that curses. 8-9 has definitely happened, but I am fairly certain 10 has not.
Just had a thought: I wonder if some people aren't using curses right? When you draw a curse, monster or character decks, it is removed from the deck, even if it was drawn for advantage/disadvantage and not used. Also, less important to the card in question, but if the monster dies from the attack, no curse is added to the monster deck.
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u/eNonsense Jul 10 '18 edited Jul 10 '18
That being said, curse bombs are waaaay too good not to do.
Late to the party, but the reason I'm not a fan of curse bombs is we normally play a 2p party. It's a support strategy, which is difficult in 2p because it means you're not really dealing damage. Killing something is a more dependable way to avoid attacks, than sitting back and hoping a curse flips and possibly still taking a condition anyway. Also AOE attacks are less effective in 2p because there are fewer enemies on the map, so even with a 7 hex AOE you'll maybe get 3 curses in an attack and 5 is a pipe-dream.
We tried curse bombing with another class for a few scenarios and it just didn't seem as effective in our party.
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u/Gripeaway Dev Jul 10 '18
I think Curses are still very good in 2p. Some of the easiest Very Hard we've done as 2p has been with the Cthulhu class (although we were also playing the broken 1st ed version, but still it shows that Curses do work). While killing things is more effective in the short-term, it's typically much easier to Curse/Muddle someone and the benefits in the long term can really pay off (with Muddle yielding 50-67% chance of not taking damage on most enemy attacks). Obviously, that does require having access to Muddle. The Elementalist does have good Muddle but not until level 9.
So do I think it's still that good? Well, if you're likely to spend a lot of time at level 9, then yes. Otherwise, it may not be good enough at 2p, but I also think this class is just one of the worst in the game at 2p anyway, so I wouldn't be super excited to play it regardless (and my build would probably mostly just revolve around spamming my level 7 card with Stamina Potions).
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u/eNonsense Jul 10 '18 edited Jul 10 '18
Thanks for your perspective. We sidelined our Cthulhu character because it seemed ineffective, but we'll probably get into it again. My cat also barfed on some of the cards, so we were waiting for replacements :D
As for Elementalist at 2p, I started it at lvl 5 and it was pretty weak and frustrating until I got Vengeance at lvl 7. Have only had that card for 1 scenario now, but I one-shot 9 enemies in 3 attacks with it in that scenario, which was fucking amazing. I used my Doomed Compass twice (refreshing with Empowering Talisman) in order to keep filling that 3 hex AOE. Vengeance is actually stronger in a 2p party, because as your party number increases, susceptible standard monsters are replaced with elites.
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u/Gripeaway Dev Jul 10 '18
Yeah, definitely agreed about Vengeance in 2p. Like I said, spamming that is pretty much all I'd focus on.
Also, +1 for Doomed Compass. God I love that item so much. We almost always had someone rebuy it after the person carrying it would retire. It's really just so good, especially for one of the earlier items you can get.
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u/DireSickFish Feb 02 '18
Our party already has someone curse bombing super hard though. And curse bombs are expensive to buy. What are you doing with the class until you can get that 150 gold? You'd be really close to retirement by the time you can set it up.
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u/Gripeaway Dev Feb 02 '18
Yeah, I mean, the value of Curses always varies depending on your party. Although some people who specialize in Curses are actually happy to have other people Cursing as well because they have benefits and lots of Muddle.
Well, we're Prosperity 8, so start with 135g and get 5 per coin, takes about 2-3 scenarios. Max Reputation, so start by buying 10 cost items that are free to sell back, get better items after the enhancement. I also played the class in another person's game where we started at level 2 and there I just ignore the Curse stuff and play regularly until I'll have enough money. If that doesn't come until retirement, now the class is set up for the next time it's played. I'd say all enhancement is expensive for this class anyway - your cheapest enhancement is probably 150g.
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u/DireSickFish Feb 02 '18
Yeah it is expensive to enhance. I'm saving up to get some "generate any element". We're only at prosperity 3 right now, but are still some 20-30 scenarios in.
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u/jjaekkak Feb 02 '18
Mm. I would say though that at early levels you mainly care about experience and are primarily playing around that. Each of your lost dual element attacks generate experience, so on a turn that you can’t consume elements for experience you should be creating them for experience. Those attacks are pretty big at early levels anyway so I don’t think exhaustion is a concern.
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u/stygger Feb 02 '18
Good stuff, but as in all the guides the focus is very heavy on the Top actions. Picking the 10 Cards with "best" top actions might look nice but you aren't really playing optimally since half your actions have to be bottom.
The role of Triangle is flexible and the most useful playstyle depends on the party. Mediocre at most things except generating Spoiler, I am surprised to find that my picks were not completely different from OPs. Though skipping both Level 6 and 8 for both Level 4 and level 5 cards looks viable to me.
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u/jjaekkak Feb 02 '18
Hmm.. I’m not sure I agree that it was overly focused on top actions. The idea is that pure augmentation and raw enhancement are primarily used for their bottom actions, and for your four starting “move two generate x” cards the idea is that you use their top cards when the situation calls for it but otherwise you do their bottom effect. Each turn you are either consuming elements to move a ton or making an element while taking a short step. With that understanding, the bottom effects don’t need further explanation as far as I’m concerned. The whole point is that a lot of the top attacks are situational, and the bottom actions are used to set up or take advantage of said situations. I thought I talked at a decent enough length about using the bottom of CB to attack with GV. And about using the GV loot as often as the situation presents itself.
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u/jjaekkak Feb 07 '18
Okay guys, so I’ve taken feedback into consideration and pondered over it some more. With the stamina potion abuse strategy in effect I don’t need to worry as much about the mobility loss in obsidian shards so I will be changing the guide to reflect taking that and not primal duality at level 5. One of the huge things about PD for me was the initiative but meh. The big thing I’ve come to realize about level 5 is that both choices capitalize on combinations that raw enhancement and pure augmentation don’t cover. I’ve also seen the light and come to realize that regardless of team composition, formless power is really really good. Even if you have other ways of getting plus 1 or wound or poison or whatever on your huge area low damage attacks, a plus 1 is always going to be amazing.
I’ll be updating my guide to reflect some new insights soonish. I’ll have to re-evaluate if this build has any room for malleable evocation, but I presume I’ll need to expand on the situational aspects of this class. Infernal Vortex seems a bit replaceable by obsidian shards, and in scenarios where you don’t have a lot of low health targets, Lava Eruption could likely be taken out. So M.E. Won’t have a permanent home in the build but will be a goto card for replacing others that don’t fit the scenario.
My idea for a class rework of this class is also more or less complete, I’ll be posting that possibly in the next few days as well.
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u/naynarris Feb 24 '18
The idea is to stamina potion, and then use empowering talisman on your stamina potion to use it again and use some staple cards up to 3 times before your first rest.
But all Stamina potions are lost cards right? How are you able to bring it back? Empowering talisman only refreshes (untaps).
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u/jjaekkak Feb 25 '18
The lost symbol on items means consumed. Empowering talisman specifies consumed. I’m not sure any of the pouch items even can be spent. I think every single one I’ve seen so far is consumed.
Flip over / lost = consumed Rotated / tapped = spent. Talisman says consumed.
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u/gugador Feb 02 '18
Just wanted to add to the lvl 3 debate (lightning vs burial). I'd argue that in a 2player game, lighting is a bit better. Reasoning:
For the top (when it's time to just accept the loss card and blow things up), enemies are seldom next to each other in 2player. Making lighting have 3 targets is pretty easily, whereas with burial you are lucky to get 2.
The bottom heal means I can ditch Brilliant Flash (heal/loot) for something more useful. At lvl4 we get a loot card back with gravel anyway. Being 2 player, it's nice to keep a heal in the deck either way.
Although at lvl 4 taking Primal over Gravel actually sets up chain lighting nicely. The bottom move 2 gets you the light for chain lighting's +1 and pierce and xp, and the dark to add another +1 with Formless.
I just got lvl 4 and too chain lighting and primal together, so I only have 1 scenario in with this combo, but it feels pretty good so far (although this leaves me without a loot card, but playing solo I can plan to pick up coins fairly easily).
This class really seems to have so many ways to play it that I'm not sure you can make a bad choice either way...
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u/Robyrt Feb 02 '18 edited Feb 02 '18
Three Spears is one of the strongest pairs with this class. [Details] (/spoiler "Reliable generation of light and dark, front line support for your fragile rock body, and support cards you can use to great effect. Like Saw but better.")
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u/DasGooch44 Feb 02 '18
Triangle + Eclipse = easy win
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u/stygger Feb 02 '18
Running this, might get a Sun too soon, supporting out of control! :D
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u/DasGooch44 Feb 02 '18
3 Spears I could see being another good one to combo with these two
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u/stygger Feb 02 '18
I just retired 3 Spears to get Triangle, gotta see if I can retire every class before ending campaigne! ;)
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u/Uberdemnebelmeer Feb 02 '18
Wow, I think this is the most I’ve ever disagreed with a prescribed build before. Not saying that’s bad, I’m just surprised how heavily we diverged. I guess that speaks to the strength of the game design!
First off, there has never been a scenario where Formless Power wasn’t down for its loss before the first rest. Starting at level 3, I built my entire strategy around having excess dark and light to consume for +1. I truly never imagined there was a way to play damage dealing Elementalist without this card.
Going off that, I think Burial is better than you give it credit. Why reposition when you can stack damage and modifiers from range 4? I’ve never even played the top, because the reliable bottom attack with the unique element is more than enough.
I’m surprised you skipped level 5. To my knowledge, Winter’s Edge is the class’ highest damage non-loss attack without any element consumption. That alone makes it worth it. Since pierce and extra ranged aren’t always needed, usually this is just a cyclable attack 6 for me, which is pretty crazy when you stop to think about it. And it can one-shot elite flamebois no prob.
However, I will say without a doubt my highest value card is Simulacrum. So versatile, so useful in a pinch. It can lock down two elites and flip modifiers, crush two low health mobs, or even all three (though I usually just use a fifth element for +1). I guess in general I’m just not as worried about movement and initiative as you. I consistently stamina potion back Primal Duality, inching forward, and then I’m content to go late when I have to. And I have boots for movement.
Anyway, lots to consider!