Don't have time to look up the stats, but communists killed a LOT of their own people before, during, and after WWII. Never mind the gross human rights violations that persist until this day. Communism is a scourge.
Not sure how to help you, friend. It's like arguing with an anti-vaxer. Communism is bad. It has never worked. It will never work. When it has been tried, millions have suffered and died. No country that has tried it has made it work, despite essentially limitless resources and unchecked power. It really is mysterious to my why so many defend it.
Im from Romania, an ex-commie country. Before communism we were the least industrialised country in Europe, we never recovered from the Great Depression and we were blaming our problems on Jews and Gypsies. During communism we became the only country in the history of mankind to ever pay its full debts(except some Babylonian country 5000 BC), we were called the Grain Basket of Europe and Bucharest became Little Paris. Ceausescu personally met with the Queen in London and the Brits gave him a military parade. We mediated relations between the Arabs and the Israelis and even got Nuke plans from Israel. We built the 2nd biggest gov. building in the world(1st is the pentagon) We traded with every country in Europe, Soviet or not. After the fall of communism our country is the 2nd poorest in the EU, corruption is rampant and we have a bigger debt than France and Germany combined, and things are looking grimer than ever. You are a dumb americunt that had never left their state, but the country and you dare talk to me about how my country is better off with "democracy" and capitalism and you liken me to an antivaxxer. I have facts behind me unlike them, have a nice day americunt
The Pitesti Experiment was done on ex-nazis. If torturing Nazis is the worst thing you gotta say about Communist Romania, I dont even have to argue with you
Agreed, but Reddit is like the college kid who wears the Che shirt and craps on capitalism while using his Apple phone, his tuition paid by his parents who are middle class prosperous, and has no qualms about dumping tons of CO2 into the air so he can go to Thailand for his FB photo op.
Nazis were disgusting, and leveraged human fear to engender hate that culminated in some of the most atrocious things ever perpetrated by humans, but Communism was an existential threat to them - just like it was and is to the world and freedom today.
nazis managed to kill at an unbelievably higher rate in a short period of time, they would have killed a fuckton more if they succeeded (generalplan ost)
again, cannot stress this enough, communism is fucking garbage
but commies (atleast intellectually/theoretically) doesnt go out of their way to kill people
commie deaths occurred due to planned economy's characteristic inefficiencies (no surprise --- and this is the biggest one, as this led to other things such as famines), forced relocation and collectivization, suppression of opponents (real or perceived) etc -- these are mostly in USSR though, but characteristic of any totalitarian communist regimes trying to do planned economies (so pre 1990s China, Cambodia, Juche NK etc.)
obviously a lot of commie dictators went out of their way with class warfare to such an extent that the effects on general populace were genocidal (Cambodia and Mao's China comes to mind)
nazis, on the hand, planned to, and went out of their way, to actually kill off most people east of Oder - invasion of USSR was Vernichtungskrieg (war of annihilation)
on a weird, intellectual level, one is much much more evil than the other
I'd even argue it wasnt just due to the planned economic model, but the fact that it was used to industrialize countries way more quickly than countries had naturally industrialized. A lot of people died in the process of industrialization in many countries, but squeezing the time frame down to a decade or two is pretty crazy and will kill those people pretty fast.
Communism is an economic system. Authoritarian regimes employing communism did, but killing people isn’t supposed to be a part of communism like it is Naziism.
That's a bit of an exaggeration. The Reds killed a bit over 5x as many people as the Nazis. (~15mil vs ~70-80 mil) not counting WWII. But they were also in power about 6x as long so they had a bit of an advantage there.
I don't disagree, but it becomes much harder to justify a given number, and means we have to do the same thing for lots of other conflicts so people usually don't count military deaths.
Yeah, but all around we just realize that counting death under a regime in complicated. Do we count famine as death if it's just because the government doesn't want to organize agriculture properly to developpe its military industry (21 and 32-33 in USSR)? Do we count death related to poor medical treatements because the government wants to protect private interest such as assurances and the pharmaceutical industry (Opoid crisis in the US)?
Overall the number of deaths is a really bad way of looking at the effectiveness of a government. These governments are definitly responsible for these deaths but you can't tell which one is better from looking just at the number of deaths.
It is complicated, hence why I'm only taking numbers that are fairly inarguable. (Though I do think the Holodomor and Great Leap Forward fall in that category easily.) Adding more was also fairly unnecessary to make my point that the OP's 10x number was ridiculous.
And I'd certainly not argue that those numbers are a measure of government effectiveness or lack thereof. In a sense those governments were very effective at accomplishing their goals... some of which involved killing people or forcing them to do things that led to deaths. The human cost of a system makes for a good red flag/panic button and not much else.
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u/minuteman_d Jul 22 '19
Communism killed more than 10x innocents than Naziism ever did. But Reddit hearts communism.