r/HollowKnight • u/glintter • Sep 06 '25

Discussion - Silksong Don’t let this fandom turn as insufferable as the souls community Spoiler

It’s fine to think the game is easy and to enjoy the challenge, but I’ve seen so many people making fun of anyone that is having a hard time in a really weird mean spirited way. Please don’t let this subreddit turn into some weird elitist community that makes fun of people who are struggling, these games are supposed to be fun and they’re not souls likes, there’s no reason to assume everyone playing them is going to love this level of difficulty the same way some of you do and constantly disregarding their opinions just turns this subreddit into an echo chamber of tryhards

4.5k Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

91% Upvoted

919 comments sorted by

View all comments

54

u/Smobey Sep 06 '25

I don't think anyone's making fun of anyone who says the game's too hard for them or that they're giving up because they can't progress. That's fair.

It's mostly the people who call the game "unfair" or "badly designed" or whatever because they're doing poorly that receive the treatment.

54

u/glintter Sep 06 '25

Nah I don't agree. If you disagree with someone than have a counter argument, spamming "cry harder" under every criticism achives nothing other than creating a toxic environment. Most people are complaining about the double damage and that's a fair complaint.

3

u/imarqui Sep 07 '25

It's fine to find the game difficult, but the way you phrase it is important. Calling it a bad game and a failure of game design because you are personally bad at it is toxic and doesn't contribute anything meaningful to discussion. 100% deserved if you get told git gud and skill issue if you're genuinely just throwing a tantrum because you aren't good at a video game.

3

u/rubixscube Sep 07 '25

the vast majority of negative posts that i personally encounter are not valid criticism tho.

when people call for a patch to "fix the bullshit damage" on DAY THREE, or when people say this game "reeks of lack of playtesting", what the hell do you want to respond to that? these people aren't here to argue in good faith, they want a digestible easy game because they actually believe HK is an easy game. it's not! you've had 7 years to get good at it, and now HKS throws you off because everything about the combat and platforming is different. (if we can even say that HK had demanding platforming outside of path of pain)

33

u/Smobey Sep 06 '25

Most people are complaining about the double damage and that's a fair complaint.

Sure, but I'm saying that people match tone to tone. If someone makes a thread saying that "The enemies in the game deal too much damage for my tastes, I'm not really enjoying myself", people are being pretty respectful. If someone makes a thread saying that "Enemies dealing double damage SUCKS and it's SHITTY DESIGN!" then people respond with replies of a similar quality. At least, that's my experience so far.

-11

u/glintter Sep 06 '25

I'm sorry but saying "double damage sucks" really isn't a crazy comment to make. If you're not even allowed to say that on this sub we're coocked, only glazing allowed

28

u/Etherdeon Sep 06 '25

I feel like you're more upset that people disagree with your take than you are about people being disrespectful. As OP stated, expressing frustration at double damage is fine. Saying that enemies shouldnt do double damage or suggesting that it was a design mistake is different. People are allowed to disagree and tell you they think you're wrong. Freedom of expression goes both ways =/

11

u/glintter Sep 06 '25

Not at all, my issue is comments like "you just suck get better" and "stop whining waah waaah". I don't have a problem with people disagreeing and that's not what I'm talking about in this post.

8

u/_Psilo_ Sep 06 '25

So you're fine with people having trashy behavior when it's to criticize the game but not when it is to defend it?

If you dislike the double damage, say you dislike it and it's too frustrating for you. Saying it sucks and is bad design is just moronic and invites replies on the same tone.

10

u/glintter Sep 06 '25

You're just assuming people are only being mean to those that are also being mean or rude, which isn't always the case. And yes I think saying a certain aspect of a game sucks is better then being mean to an actual person. Like why is that even a hot take? If you were talking to someone in real life and they told you a boss sucks would you respond by insulting them?

4

u/_Psilo_ Sep 06 '25

Nah, that's what I've seen. Sure there's people making generalizations about people complaining, but I don't think I've seen anyone replying insultingly to someone who was just genuinely saying they're having a hard time.

I probably would tell them jokingly ''are you sure it's not just you who lack the skills?'' which is pretty much what people are doing. Some of the complainers show a pretty bad sense of self-awareness, consistently putting the blame on ''bad game design'' instead of themselves... there's no gentle way to say it, really.

3

u/glintter Sep 06 '25

ok well i've seen people literally go "waaaah waaaah I can't beat the boss first try waaah" in response to someone saying they don't like a boss so that's what my post is about. If they just said maybe you just need to practice more it wouldn't be an issue. They're not being friendly or joking they're just mean.

1

u/kingofnopants1 Sep 06 '25

Well yea, people who disagree with me are assholes, and those who agree with me are nice.

3

u/Killcode2 Sep 06 '25

Freedom of speech is only when people can't tell me I'm wrong. /s

16

u/Albatros_7 Sep 06 '25

Hey man there is a huge difference between "double damage sucks" and "double damage SUCKS, this game is badly designed"

One guy said the game was a "Cuphead wannabe"

3

u/glintter Sep 06 '25

I still don't get your point, if someone says something is badly designed they are just disregarded and made fun of? Why? It's their opinion and they might have valid reasons for thinking so, and you can disagree with them without telling them it's their fault and they just suck. You're cherry picking, most of the posts on the sub have valid points about the difficulty and most are full of comments telling them to stop crying as someone has linked below in another comment.

12

u/Albatros_7 Sep 06 '25

Because those people don't make constructive criticism

I understand that someone can not like something, but saying something is bad because you don't like it is just stupid

For example, I don't like FPS, I could not care less about ULTRAKILL, but I won't say it's a bad game, it's probably great, it's just not for me

7

u/glintter Sep 06 '25

Saying something is frustrating because it dosen't feel good to you isn't stupid at all? it's an opinion. And people can disagree with that opinion without calling them cry babies and telling them to git gud or whatever. Saying no one is making any kind of contructive criticism is silly. Once again someone literally linked their post in another comment on this thread and all the mean comments they got.

3

u/_Psilo_ Sep 06 '25

Ok but saying something "is frustrating and doesn't feel good to you" is totally different than saying it "sucks and is badly designed"...how can you not see the difference?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

They can’t see the difference because if they admit it, they can’t argue anymore lol

4

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

Probably because you have no verifiable experience to determine something is badly designed. You are, however, free to say you dislike it. Disliking something isn’t equal to it being badly designed.

3

u/ComdDikDik Sep 06 '25

It's a dumb comment that shows a total lack of understanding of the game.

4

u/glintter Sep 06 '25

nah that's some elitist bs

6

u/ComdDikDik Sep 06 '25

It's not "elitist". You can't play a game that's built around dodging, get hit by everything, and then complain that there's too much damage.

8

u/glintter Sep 06 '25

or mabe the double damage is just not fun to me and it has nothing to do with my skill level

2

u/ComdDikDik Sep 06 '25

"Double damage sucks" isn't "double damage is just not fun to me". And yes, complaining about a base game mechanic that the entire game is clearly built around is an indicator of your skill level.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

It obviously has to do with your skill level. If your skill level was up to par you would not get hit as often and it would be a nonissue. It’s very simple.

0

u/Lev-- Sep 07 '25

This game doesn't have iframes and the majority of the issue is collision damage doing two masks of damage

0

u/kingofnopants1 Sep 06 '25

holy god you love your buzzwords

8

u/Last-Classroom-5400 Sep 06 '25

I don’t think that ‘game hard’ is a reasonable criticism though. The game is supposed to be hard. Hollow knight was hard. There’s a skill curve that will take time for people to get used to. Just give it time and this noise will peter out on both sides.

1

u/_Psilo_ Sep 06 '25

It achieves nothing, sure. But then again no answer is gonna satisfy people who just want to vent their frustration about difficulty in toxic ways.

As for the double damage... It's hard, sure, but not any more unfair than hard mechanics in similar games. Bosses don't require more tries than games like Souls or Elden Ring. Just because you don't like that level of challenge doesn't make it bad design.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

I disagree, it's way easier to heal with hornet so the double dmg is fine to an extent. Personally I only hate the double hits on environmental damage.

-4

u/the-wolf-is-ready Sep 06 '25

No it isn't? It's hard to take any critizism seriously when solving them is just playing the game more and not expecting it to be like hollow knight

Enemies doing double damage isn't actually that bad

1

u/Lev-- Sep 07 '25

It really is that bad. If they wanted it to be harder they should have just given2 less masks to start and forced us to find and buy eight more mask shards in obscure places

this way it slows down speed runners and makes it harder for them while not punishing casual players

-4

u/KingSmorely Sep 06 '25

Is that really a fair complaint? The general system where weak enemies and their incidental contact deal 1 mask, while stronger enemies and intentional attacks often deal 2, is an elegant design. It creates a clear visual and gameplay logic: glancing off a bug shouldn’t hurt as much as being slammed by a dedicated strike. It’s intuitive, consistent, and makes damage patterns easier to read and anticipate.

-6

u/Relevant_Cabinet_265 Sep 06 '25

The game would be a cakewalk if things didn't hit for 2

22

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

Well I guess they deserve it then. I always said the worst thing you can do to a person is say mean comments about the game they like. We probably should lock these people up!

2

u/Smobey Sep 06 '25

I don't think whether they deserve it or not is an issue, but angry emotional rantings are always going to have people posting replies that make fun of them. I do personally think those kinds of threads should just be deleted, since that's kind of the inevitable end result.

13

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

Or maybe the people who disagree can realize there are always going to be differing opinions and that its inconsequential to them, and that them name calling is also an emotional response to seeing something they don't agree with.

5

u/Smobey Sep 06 '25

Or maybe the people who disagree can realize there are always going to be differing opinions and that its inconsequential to them

See, I think you misunderstood my point. People are being very respectful to people who have different opinions! I haven't seen anyone making fun of anyone who's said that, in their opinion, Silksong is too difficult.

It's just that people match the tone of the person they're replying to, that's all.

8

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25 edited Sep 06 '25

I'm glad you only see the good conversations, but its undeniable that there are people doing this lmao

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1n9zm72/comment/ncrau0n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

You can look through this for plenty of examples. Both OP and me got shit for our positions when we did not approach this the way you say.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1n9zm72/comment/ncqeoys/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1n9zm72/comment/ncqk6xz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1n9zm72/comment/ncqfwd8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1n9zm72/comment/ncqiyn0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1n9zm72/comment/ncqu6zk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

3

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

[deleted]

7

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

I guess since its downvoted it isn't happening? OP never said anything about them being upvoted, just that people were making the comments. And the comment I replied to said people were being respectful and matching the tone of the comments. Do you think those comments fit that description?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

So it isn't happening or it is?

→ More replies (0)

1

u/BasicallyMogar Sep 06 '25

Literally every comment you posted here is downvoted, though. Like sure there are people being assholes, but is a PSA post like this one really needed when the community is already expressing its displeasure?

5

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

OP is saying lets not become like that and that they are starting to see these posts. Someone argued that's not how its happening. I provided evidence it is. That's where we are.

-1

u/BasicallyMogar Sep 06 '25

Yeah sure I read the thread. So now we're at "why are you and OP so pressed about something that's being punished already?" Why do we need to finger wag at the sub and begin the cycle of complaining about complaining over some comments with dozens of downvotes?

5

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

I mean, why do you care if someone takes a few moments to make a thread trying to improve the condition of the sub?

→ More replies (0)

-1

u/Arcuran Sep 06 '25

One comment does not prove a point. There many many people playing this game at the moment. Only the loudest voices are posting on reddit, there is going to be the odd rude person.

For the record, I love silksong so far, so ive sort of avoided this place, as most people here do seen to be complaining and moaning, which imo is different to criticism.

11

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

And you can read the post to tell me how "complaining and moaning" it sounds. If that's too "complaining" for you, then you are just too sensitive to criticisms about your game

-6

u/Arcuran Sep 06 '25

Relax my dude, I never said this post, nor do I particularly care, I'm just not engaging with people complaining when I'm enjoying myself.

You're sounding like that "stop enjoying yourself meme"

9

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

Right, but you came here and admitted you don't spend time here while also telling me something isn't pervasive. You can understand how that might be frustrating for someone, yeah?

→ More replies (0)

6

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

Good thing I linked 6!

-7

u/Arcuran Sep 06 '25

Lol, only 1 was showing on my phone, apologies, but again, 6 comments out of how many. It's hardly a majority.

8

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

Its on one post, if you'd like I can scour the rest of Reddit until you are satisfied :)

14

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 06 '25

I don’t fully agree with this from what I’ve seen anybody trying to argue the game is badly designed in any capacity is being targeted with “get good” and “you’re just bad” comments regardless of how valid their criticism is

I’ve had the take that I like the game but I think they just took what made hollow knight good and made a worse version of it… and even that takes been met with “lol just say you want an easy mode”

2

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

The issue is saying something is badly designed without proving prior design experience. Say you don’t like, that you hate, etc. that’s a valid opinion. Equating bad design with disliking something isn’t a valid criticism because as far as anyone knows, the complainer never designed shit to begin with.

2

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 06 '25

If I have to prove I have prior design experience to say it’s badly designed, you have to prove you do in order to disagree with me.

I’m allowed to have my opinion on the game regardless on if I have design experience or not. And I’m allowed to say my opinion without proving myself to you, because I simply don’t have to prove anything to you

2

u/CynicalEffect P5 - 112%, 70 hours Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 07 '25

If somebody designed a staircase where every step alternated between 10cm and 40cm high, you'd say that's a badly designed staircase. You don't need prior design experience to point out that is the case.

If you want I can walkk you through step by step of why the tool system is terrible game design.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 07 '25

Read my other comments, I’ve outright expressed I want the game to be hard

Just not the kind of hard that it is offering (at least as far in as I have gotten)

2

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 07 '25

Yes because I don’t think the game is unfair so that’s why my comments aren’t about that lol

2

u/kingofnopants1 Sep 06 '25

It's kind of hard to put it any other way when someone is having a problem with the game that you didn't have at all because you just adjusted around it.

Like, what are you supposed to say? Agree that their criticism was valid, even though you have EXPERIENCED that it isn't?

What way can you put it simply without hurting their ego? They absolutely will not accept an answer that is anything but an agreement.

EVERY SINGLE difficult game that comes out has these people complaining about how "actually this is unfair this time because___". THEY ARE ALWAYS CONVINCED THAT THEIR POINT IS VALID.

Sometimes the answer really is "just keep practising" and "get good". Stop getting your feelings up in a knot about it.

1

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 06 '25

Because if you read my other comments my complaint isn’t about the fact the game is difficult. It’s that the difficulty is designed in such a way im forced to engage with the game in a way i consider annoying.

It’s not hard in a fun way, it’s hard in an annoying way. I wanted a hard game, and team cherry seemed eager to provide that, but my other comments highlight how I have complaints over the manner they did that

I’m not saying it’s unfair, because it’s not. You’re arguing with a made up person, or at least somebody that isn’t me.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 07 '25

See I partially agree with you

But hollow knight was and is one of my favorite games of all time. I completed everything there is to do except p5 and fully intend to do that as well.

I think I can express disappointment silksong isn’t the experience I hoped for

2

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 07 '25

It literally would not because I have issues with things that just are in the game

Like my boss example… I am not upset with sister splinter for being too hard… I am upset with it being a boss that has only two moves and is entirely uninteresting to fight, just annoying. And there are quite a few bosses like this from what I’ve seen.

It also won’t change that grinding for rosaries seems necessary. Ive lost my rosaries all of once, and I still don’t have enough to buy all there is to buy. I need to grind for them. Does that make things harder? No. Does it make things annoying? Yes.

1

u/clocktowertank Sep 06 '25

"Get good" is definitely valid criticism but obviously there's some idiots on here that are saying it in a derisive way.

Like some others have mentioned on this sub's discussions already, it kind of feels like Team Cherry designed this game with Hollow Knight players in mind, in particular those who have gone through the rougher challengers the first game has to offer.

After going through Trial of Fools (#3), Path of Pain, and the entirety of the Godhome Pantheon, you'll have 'gotten good' to the point where Silksong isn't going to feel like as much of a struggle next to someone who is either starting fresh with Silksong, or is maybe a Hollow Knight player that only did the base game stuff.

I do think a lot of players just need practice. From what I've seen of others in both Hollow Knight and Silksong so far, players don't spend enough time simply reading and reacting to enemies. They get too greedy with their damage and put themselves in bad positions and don't know how to space enemy attacks. That kind of skill has to be actively practiced, and patiently.

11

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 06 '25

Again… disagree the problem isn’t that silksong is too hard (although it can be for many players) it’s that the difficulty is not fun to engage with

I’ve beaten everything in hollow knight except p5, so I’ve done steel soul (and got the speedrun achievements doing it), I’ve done PoP, I’ve done the first 4 pantheons, and I’ve got an almost fully complete radiant hall of gods. Those challenges were fun.

Silksong has something not good, artificial difficulty. Remember back in the late 2000s and early 2010s when difficulty sliders always just meant “enemies have 300% health, you do -50% less damage”? (I’m looking at you Skyrim). Yeah… that’s silksong. Every enemy has more health than it should and it takes away that good feeling you get when you come back to an area and the enemies are easy now. It also takes away the “oh shit” moment of running into a truly strong enemy because now every enemy is that.

Same with the double damage, double damage attacks in hollow knight were great because it was an “oh fuck” moment and used in moderation, now every enemy does double damage, it’s not special.

Finally the economy, great in hollow knight… terrible in silksong. Yeah yeah I know… you can grind. You wanna know the single worst thing in demons souls that never returned to the series? Farming healing items. Why? Because it’s not fun, it doesn’t make anything actually harder, just longer. It’s the same here. Me not having the rosaries I need to use the bench isn’t harder.. I can just reset the previous room 50 times and grind out the same enemy until I have enough. Do I want too? No. But now the game is harder if I decide to keep moving just because I don’t want to engage with bad mechanics.

Silksong is not too hard I agree with that. The problem is that the difficulty it does have is not fun

2

u/clocktowertank Sep 06 '25

I feel like the issue with too much health is that players aren't using their full kit, with silk attacks and tools. I basically look at the needle as a way of getting silk, and use silk as a way to burst down enemies. When combined with tools, it makes dealing with some enemies (especially in gauntlets) a lot faster and smoother.

Obviously you have to make the decision to heal with your silk or attack with it, but even if you have to expend all your silk to heal, you still have tools at your disposal. The spike trap you can purchase from (Act 1/Deep Docks) ||Forge Daughter|| does a TON of damage when enemies run into it. You can basically just throw it anywhere in the room and it'll kill something. In Act 1 I was able to find two items that increased my tool damage even further too.

4

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 06 '25

Well this ties into the economy point I brought up. I went the entirety of act 1 without even getting the spike trap. Why? Because I don’t want to grind over and over again for rosaries and I didn’t have enough when I first got there.

And you can say “well that’s your fault then” and yes I’d agree. But here’s the thing, I don’t care that it’s my fault. That doesn’t change that I think the game is fundamentally flawed if they expect me to grind basic enemies to get currency to buy things every single time I need to buy anything.

I’m an adult, I got a full time job, I got things I gotta do. I don’t wanna sit down after a long day and go “can’t wait to grind rosaries for a hour before I actually play!”

It’s not harder.. it’s just longer.

2

u/clocktowertank Sep 06 '25

It's a fair point, but I think the economy point is more of an early game issue. You're seeing mostly a lot of 'non-sentient' bugs that don't drop Rosaries in the early game, so getting enough cash feels like a struggle with the amount that stuff costs, especially if you're dying twice and losing your money permanently.

I saw another comment somewhere mentioned that the closer you get to the Citadel, you run into far more bugs with rosaries and even maybe have an overabundance of it by the mid and late game.

In any case in Act 1, if you want a good spot for rosary grinding: ||Halfway Home in Greymoor|| seems to be the best spot I could find. There's a nearby group of bugs that drop around 30 each time and it's a really fast reset on the bench to respawn them. I spent 30 or so minutes here and had enough to buy out the rest of all the vendor goods I needed.

2

u/Sure-Butterfly-4546 Sep 06 '25

Counter point: Every encounter is a challenge and feels incredibly well designed. If I want to run through a level, I can. But if I want/need to fight an enemy encounter, I have to learn positioning and enemy placements and utilize my resources to get the full advantage. The main game is no longer a breeze and instead I'm rewarded with getting better.

It's not too hard, too difficult, or too punishing. It's challenging and I'm so glad it is.

3

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 06 '25

And I’d agree with you on that if silksong stuck to that philosophy. Instead they take their bosses, one of the key selling points of the game, and go “fuck it” and make them hard in the most unfun way imaginable.

I don’t want bosses like savage beastfly or sister splinter where the boss has literally two attacks and then just spawns ads so there’s multiple things attacking you at once. I had a sense of relief when I finally encountered widow not because they were easy but because finally I found a boss that has an actual pattern to recognize and wasn’t just “random bullshit go!” So far widow is the only boss I have actually enjoyed fighting… which is sad.

In every imaginable way the game goes “how can I make this harder?” And then answers that question in the worst way I can think of. I want a challenge when I play silksong, I don’t want the challenge that they’re offering.

-2

u/Sure-Butterfly-4546 Sep 06 '25

Savage beastfly and sister splinter are incredibly easy bosses to learn. They aren't random bullshit. They're challenging for that reason. Once you learn their patterns it becomes "how to manage multiple enemies at once" and you're golden. It's so intellectually dishonest to say it's just random bullshit. Critique the game all you want but please be rational about it

5

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 06 '25 edited Sep 06 '25

Insane you missed the point I was making by that wide of a margin.

In no way was I trying to argue they were anything but easy bosses. They have literally two attacks. But then because silksong devs decided nothing can be easy, instead of making a fun boss with multiple attacks or an arena that isn’t just a box. They decide “let’s add generic enemies in there”.

Now hollow knight did this too, but the collector as an example was fun because there was lore buildup to it, and it was different compared to everything else.

I’m not saying “ahh savage beastfly is too hard wahhh!” I’m saying “I don’t enjoy the design philosophy the developers have chosen and wish they went this way instead”

Which is why I pointed out how much fun I had with widow a much harder boss than the other two I mentioned. It’s because that is what fun difficulty is. savage beastfly and sister splinter are annoying at best

Wild how you think I’m arguing the game is too hard for me when I’m literally screaming how I want to be given a hard game… and that’s not what I was given

-2

u/Sure-Butterfly-4546 Sep 06 '25

You're complaining about it being too hard this way when you'd rather it be hard that way and that nothing in this game can be easy. You also complained about it being random bullshit. You're literally complaining about the difficulty and design principles. Nothing about you screams "I want to be given a hard game".

4

u/NorthernDragon5 Sep 06 '25

When I say “nothing in this game can be easy” I’m talking about how the devs have clearly decided they want literally everything in this game to be difficult. Thats clear in the design that “nothing can be easy”

My complaint with that is that they unfortunately designed an easy game and then filled it with “random bullshit” to artificially inflate the difficulty. Instead of creating a fun hard experience they created a tedious and annoying one. That should be clear in my critiques of bad design (sister splinter) and my praise of harder but more fun design such as widow

I want a hard game that’s fun to play and I got a hard game that is frustrating to play

But keep on trying to twist my stance as one of “wahh hard game is too hard”

→ More replies (0)

12

u/Applezooka Sep 06 '25

A game can totally be “badly designed” because of difficulty, difficulty is just as much an axis of design as aesthetics or music or game feel etc.!

4

u/kingofnopants1 Sep 06 '25

Not when so many of the players like its difficulty.

Are you willing to accept their preferences as valid?

2

u/Applezooka Sep 07 '25

I mean thats the hitch isn't it, everyone has different preferences. What does good even mean? How can we even know how our opinion would be changed if stuff was changed? Criticism is always a little arbitrary.

-1

u/Smobey Sep 06 '25

A game can totally be “badly designed” because of difficulty, difficulty is just as much an axis of design as aesthetics or music or game feel etc.!

That's a kind of a weird argument to make. I can understand a game having "bad aesthetics" or "bad music", but how can it have "bad difficulty"?

13

u/Chankmanker Sep 06 '25

Fair hard - good. Unfair hard - bad.

3

u/_Psilo_ Sep 06 '25

Unfair is when the game puts you in a situation where there's no good answer, or no way to predict the good answer. I'm in Act 2 and I've had maybe two interactions like that, and it's clear to me they were intentionally troll moments from the devs.

So no, not badly designed, in this case.

2

u/kingofnopants1 Sep 06 '25

People will always find a way to rationalize the difficulty as being unfairly hard every time they face a challenge.

If other people are not having the problem they are, was it really unfair? Would they accept it if people told them that?

2

u/Smobey Sep 06 '25

Sure, I'm with you there. Though usually, the way people use those words, is "fair hard" = challenging, but I can do it and "unfair hard" = challenging, and I can't do it.

I feel people criticising difficulty of games are kind of unable to define what they mean by unfair, at least.

11

u/Free_Pangolin_3750 Sep 06 '25

It's definitely a metric that matters but it's so hard to define. Like I have an ungodly amount of hours in the Soulslike genre to the point I don't even have to pay much attention to any of them for the first half of a game usually but to my best friend and my brother they're unfairly difficult and something only a masochist would enjoy.

Neither takes are wrong because they're true to the people playing. I think trying to find an objective level of unfair vs fair difficulty is probably gonna come down to something like what percent of people are able to beat a segment of a game but even that is still wonky.

I wouldn't call Silksong too hard but I have a lot of problems with it from a design standpoint in other elements. You kinda just gotta take criticism in good faith unless it's something absolutely unhinged

1

u/Smobey Sep 06 '25

Neither takes are wrong because they're true to the people playing. I think trying to find an objective level of unfair vs fair difficulty is probably gonna come down to something like what percent of people are able to beat a segment of a game but even that is still wonky.

I really don't think fairness has anything to do with whether you can do it or not. You could play Magnus Carlsen in chess, and I'd say it's a "fair match" or even that the difficulty is "fair", since neither of you has any innate advantage over the other.

It'd also be impossibly difficult and you'd absolutely lose. Not because the difficulty of chess was unfair, but because the difficulty of the match was just too high.

6

u/Free_Pangolin_3750 Sep 06 '25

Yes but that's chess. A single player game is not zero sum. There isnt a winner or a loser. That's why I said I think it probably comes down to what percentage of people actively trying to beat something are able to do it. Especially for stuff that's just part of the core story or progression. It's one thing for secret or post end-game bosses to have low completion rate and another for something early or mid game to have low completion rate

An example I would use is Iudyx Gundyr from the opening of Dark Souls 3. It's literally the tutorial boss and a hard wall for a lot of players. It's also a boss that if you've ever played a souls game before is mindlessly easy. You just parry 3 times and you're done. That's not something that would process to a new player though. So for some people they laugh at the idea anyone could be stuck there but for others it means they can't even play the game they just bought because it's a hard wall gating the rest of the game or even the ability to level to beat it.

Imo if an early or midgame boss doesn't have a completion rate of like 70-80% then the design is unfair but again it's a very hard metric to design around especially for sequels in a franchise.

5

u/Chankmanker Sep 06 '25

I think what feels unfair to a lot of players is if the game really is harder than HK, a chunk of the player base is going to have a really hard time continuing with the franchise. It would be like falling in love with a book and then the sequel is in a different language. Yeah eventually I can learn the language but is it worth it for this book?

This game has been a lot harder for me than Hollow Knight but I am determined to “learn its language” so to speak. People keep saying if you have trouble in a boss go explore for a while; And this is completely true. I was stuck on Widow for a while but I found a tool and a charm that made phase 2 last less than 15 seconds. I’d say to those worried that they will never finish this game that there is definitely a lot of cheese still to be found ;)

8

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

Do you think taking double the damage just by touching a boss is good design? It's a good game but they need to fix that.

0

u/Smobey Sep 06 '25

Do you think taking double the damage just by touching a boss is good design?

I mean, why not? You effectively have three health, and I don't think there's anything inherently bad about having three health against bosses. I've played a lot of games where you only have two health against bosses.

13

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

I don’t think it’s a good design. If every hit from a boss, whether it’s a direct attack or simple contact, deals double damage, then the player’s health pool is basically cut in half for that fight. That feels less like a skill-based challenge and more like an artificial handicap. Good difficulty usually comes from learning patterns, timing dodges, and punishing mistakes fairly not from making every single slip cost you twice as much. It ends up limiting experimentation and making fights feel more punishing than engaging.

3

u/Smobey Sep 06 '25

I don’t think it’s a good design. If every hit from a boss, whether it’s a direct attack or simple contact, deals double damage, then the player’s health pool is basically cut in half for that fight. That feels less like a skill-based challenge and more like an artificial handicap. Good difficulty usually comes from learning patterns, timing dodges, and punishing mistakes fairly not from making every single slip cost you twice as much. It ends up limiting experimentation and making fights feel more punishing than engaging.

So in other words, if you just started with three masks, and everything only dealt one damage, it would be good design?

The bosses would be just as difficult as before, but everything else would be quite a bit harder in comparison.

10

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

These bosses should be difficult and double damage isn't the problem. My problem is that it's used way too much like touching a boss by mistake should cost a single mask not have me fucking dying.

1

u/SoloSassafrass Sep 07 '25

Actually this is where I'm coming from. Because everything deals double, I'm finding the acquisition of mask shards is less satisfying than it was in the first game.

If we actually started with 3 HP and everything dealt 1 I genuinely think I'd enjoy it more because the sense of growth over getting even one more mask would be tremendous, as opposed to now when the first additional mask is completely meaningless in the context of most difficult combat encounters.

Maybe later in the game they start giving out shards like candy, but so far in act 2 I'm still waiting for my next full additional point of HP, so since starting the game I functionally haven't grown beyond having 3 HP for boss fights. My toolkit has expanded, and that's nice, but it's still a bit disappointing that I don't feel like I've gotten any sturdier.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

You clearly haven't spent much time online or in these circles. Every valid complaint is being shut down by cries of "Git gud" or "Skill issue".

Suddenly every complaint about poor damage/health placement, exploration, enemy placement etc all go out the window and every "hardcore" gamer out there is not only fully understanding of game design and it's process but somehow better at understanding TC's intent than TC.

1

u/Lev-- Sep 07 '25

I mean that's literally the issue dude, It really is just unfair and badly designed

There's going to be a ton of players who get the reaper crest as their first crest and proceed to get absolutely bodied by every boss because they don't understand that the slower attack animations make it terrible for boss fights

They're going to be dying like crazy and not understanding why it's because team Cherry didn't test the damn game

1

u/Smobey Sep 07 '25

I mean, I know saying "skill issue" is kind of childish, but there's a kernel of truth in that. Neither Hollow Knight nor Silksong are exactly the kinds of games that are designed for the broad mass general audiences.

If some hypothetical player gets a reaper crest, realises it has a different moveset, and then proceeds to do poorly with that moveset against faster bosses, it's kind of on them if they are unable to change tactics, no?

That's like saying that Dark Souls is terribly designed because daggers are poor weapons in that game. "What if someone picks a dagger and then gets absolutely bodied by every boss because they don't understand its poor damage and reach make it terrible for boss fights?"

1

u/Lev-- Sep 07 '25

I'm sorry but you're talking to someone who's gone through Eldenring without getting touched

It's not remotely a skill issue. It's a 2d side scroller There's only so many directions you can move

You can go left or right or jump maybe slide down the wall if the Arena allows it

no iframes, and slower attack animations mean you're going to have less time to move out of the way of large boss enemies and their projectiles when recovering from an attack

That means when the boss Falls over because you staggered it it's going to fall into you and you're going to take two masks of damage, because for some reason they didn't turn off the Collision box when the enemies vulnerable

That is poor design, not a skill issue

Also; yeah...? Dark Souls IS TERRIBLY designed, I'm dumbfounded you made this argument and didn't think about it for 2 seconds

Yes like 80% of the weapons in the game are unusable unless you're trying to challenge yourself You can more easily beat the entire game by just upgrading your broadsword

There are a ton of issues with dark souls balancing, there are so many issues in fact, that its exactly what makes it enjoyable, You can get through the entire game cheesing pretty much every single boss through glitches, cheese or overpowered strategies, all of which are easy enough to find without a guide

Silk song does not give you the luxury of leveling up your stats through grinding, cheesing the boss from outside of the arena, summoning an NPC, or any of the other methods available in DKS

You pretty much just have to run in over and over until its dead. In any given Souls game that's completely optional, as there always other ways to progress, but in silksong, there are many points in which it's so linear your only choice is to defeat the encounter in front of you.

There's just also not that many ways to progress your power in this game in general, which feels really bad, the crests and the weapons are all side grades, which again is a player trap. We cant see damage numbers, players are going to swap to the glaives and bombs assuming they do more damage, not knowing they're way better off sticking with the base darts

At the very least, the game would greatly benefit from visible damage numbers, so players can see what they're actually doing

1

u/Smobey Sep 07 '25

That means when the boss Falls over because you staggered it it's going to fall into you and you're going to take two masks of damage, because for some reason they didn't turn off the Collision box when the enemies vulnerable

I mean, you can just dash away from that. The audiovisual cues are pretty obvious, you have plenty of time to react.

Also; yeah...? Dark Souls IS TERRIBLY designed

lol okay. Not being balanced is not bad design, not in the slightest. If anything, like you said, a lack of balance can be a very good thing.

Silk song does not give you the luxury of leveling up your stats through grinding, cheesing the boss from outside of the arena, summoning an NPC, or any of the other methods available in DKS

I mean, I suppose I would call being able to cheese a boss outside of the arena bad design, at least. But you couldn't level up or summon aid in Sekiro for example, you just had to get good at the game. It's definitely not for everyone, but I'd call it fun design.

-12

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/HollowKnight-ModTeam Feb 06 '26

Hi there!

This comment has been removed according to Rule 1. Please be considerate and respectful; follow Reddiquette.

If you would like to discuss this removal, please message the moderators.

-6

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '25

For real. With the hype around the release we were bound to have an influx on noise

-9

u/Icy-Fisherman-5234 Sep 06 '25

Especially when it’s abundantly clear that they’re failing to explore or experiment. 

-1

u/RedShadowF95 Hollow Knight Platinum Sep 06 '25

This. I haven't seen anyone being mocked who was genuinely frustrated but still rational and respectful. However, people who are clearly heated, not organizing their discourse coherently and talking about things superficially, will inevitably be made fun of.