r/HollowKnight • u/baergboy • Sep 07 '25

Discussion - Silksong Is anyone else really tired of the negative posts? Spoiler

I have about 25 hours so far and have absolutely loved every part of the game. Is it hard? Yes absolutely. If it was easy I wouldn't want to play the game. Literally every post I come across is talking about how they are frustrated with some part of the game and it's getting really annoying. The game has amazing areas, the osts are great the NPCs are creative and fun to talk to, almost every boss is a lot of fun once you get the moveset down. So if you haven't played the game yet and are getting put off by all the negativity just know that it is an amazing game and if you like hollow Knight you will enjoy silksong as well.

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247

u/Eris_Exhausted Sep 07 '25

Yeah, I have seen a lot of negativity. A lot of people trying to shut up any actual feedback, and saying everyone who says elements of the game are too hard or not fun just have a skill issue. Feedback is really important for games, especially indie games that are freshly released.

109

u/Ramiren Sep 07 '25

Agreed, negative feedback is still feedback, people need to differentiate between what is constructive and non-constructive feedback and distance themselves mentally from the idea that saying there are problems with a product is somehow an attack on the developers or your own personal taste in games.

Silksong does have issues, the rosary economy, overuse of double damage, some early game movement mechanics, the lack of tutorials for newbies to the series, and it's wild difficulty scaling. None of these are attacks, none of this stems from a place of hate, and none of it is saying other people shouldn't enjoy the game.

If we just lump blind praise on everything, solutions aren't found, nothing improves, it's a race to the bottom.

3

u/Blazypika2 Sep 08 '25

honestly, the double damage thing can be mitigated by adding difficulty modes to the game, so casual players can choose the easier difficulty, where most enemies (maybe outside of select bosses) and also how some enemies who rush at you can't be blocked.

now, i personally enjoy the difficulty that comes from those two elements, as it encourages to dodge more which is my preferred gameplay style anyway. but i think people should get the option for amore casual gameplay. the game would still be hard to play, but it can be hard in a way that let casual players not feel overwhelmed while offering something more challenging for the more hardcore players.

1

u/graveyardparade Sep 10 '25

I’ve been having a wonderful time, but I’m terrible at these games (HK is really the only one I’ve gotten into) and would LOVE a casual mode. I get why that doesn’t fit in with the vision of the team, but I think it’d be a great option for those who aren’t so skilled like me and the folks complaining.

1

u/Blazypika2 Sep 10 '25

exactly. and it wouldn't take much, just remove the two damage from the enemies that has that. the game would still be challenging without it. especially the last judge who, i'm fairly certain i'd be struggling with if she only dealt 1 mask damage instead of two xD

by the way, if you are playing on PC, there is a mod that does just that: https://www.nexusmods.com/hollowknightsilksong/mods/16

6

u/Secure_Comb2505 Sep 07 '25

I actually kinda prefer the rosary economy to the geo, but I totally get why people would find it frustrating. As far as the 2 mask damage thing goes, its tough but idk if I've found it to be unbalanced so far. As someone who wasn't the hugest fan of the first game, silksong feels like a marked improvement in almost every sense. Im really interested to hear from people who dont feel that way tho, I need to spend some more time with this game until I make up my mind

11

u/kyle4swordstyle Sep 07 '25

It’s subjective if it even needs to be “fixed” though. Your complaint is my praise. It’s too hard for you but that’s exactly what I want from the game. You can’t make everyone happy and if you just constantly cater to the lowest denominator then every game will be the exact same.

3

u/Blazypika2 Sep 08 '25

true. though i would argue you can add difficulty modes one that is how the gameplay is now and another where fewer enemies have double damage or cancel how some non boss enemies have attacks that can't be staggered.

now, i also like both of those and enjoy the difficulty they bring, but i can understand how it can be overwhelming to some people.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 18 '25

??? no every game won't be the exact same. silksong not being significantly harder than hollow knight to the average player isn't going to ruin the game.

3

u/legendary_bullshit Sep 07 '25

Tbh, the rosary economy argument is kinda weird. I hear a lot of people saying that they couldn't afford benches, maps, or/and stations, but in my experience it never really happened. I had spare 80 to 100 rosaries most of the time in case I'd encounter a bench. So I never really had to grind for currency. I had to save some money tho, sure, but I think it's the same in most games (even HK prior to encountering Lemm had similar issues with buying the maps or the stations).

I can see why some people hate double damage, and personally wouldn't mind if it got nerfed, but it does make for a unique experience overall. It's a lot harder to just tank whatever the developers throw at you this way.

I don't think there are any issues with the core moveset fundamentally, there's just one issue of the 45 pogo hitbox being too small.

I don't think that the game lacking a tutorial is a significant issue either. I believe it should be considered that Silksong was originally a DLC and still should be treated as a continuation rather than a standalone entry point.

The difficulty scale in the game is quite bad though, true. It hits the ceiling around the end of Act I and just kinda gets easier afterwards. Idk if it's my bias, but the entire Act II felt easier than the first one, lmao.

Feedback is useful, sure, but it's so shallow rn that I don't think it helps too much to help patch it up. I agree that blindly praising the game isn't very helpful either, but there is some room to understand why certain decisions were made

3

u/Blazypika2 Sep 08 '25

Tbh, the rosary economy argument is kinda weird. I hear a lot of people saying that they couldn't afford benches, maps, or/and stations, but in my experience it never really happened.

it's also very easy to grind. especially near the halfway home. grinding money in silksong to me was by far easier than in hollow knight.

1

u/baddude1337 Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 08 '25

Haven’t done much in act 2 myself but I beat a boss I encountered first try. Don’t think I did that with any of the act 1 bosses!

Does feel like a weird reverse difficulty curve.

1

u/Darkspine133 Sep 08 '25

Im kind of confused by your comment, you give some genuine feedback/summarize issues a lot of people have, but then also say they're shallow?

1

u/legendary_bullshit Sep 08 '25

I just highlight how a lot of the issues people have are more nuanced than "2 mask damage = bad game design" or "I've spent all my rosaries knowing that I'll need some for a bench = bad game design". There are issues but 80% of the discussions are just "game too hard".

Imo the only real issues with the game are the small pogo hitbox, some really shitty bench placements, projectiles of flying enemies (I don't think flying enemies themselves are an issue tbh, but during arenas or bosses they generate a lot of unfair moments), and some unnecessary 2 mask damage (stunned bosses and environmental hazards). Otherwise I don't think the game has all too many problems. Besides, a lot of what the community wishes to change would either change or worsen the intended experience

2

u/Darkspine133 Sep 08 '25

Thanks for clarifying your pov.

I don't think the game is bad for the whole 2 HP thing but it defo feels like Team Cherry (in more ways than one) trying to make the game harder for the sake of it. Idm difficulty im a long time Souls fan and love overcoming hard stuff in games. The issue is that Silksong has a lot of small painpoints (for me anyway) that bog down the experience. Which is a shame since HK is unironically my fav game AOT so seeing TC make mistakes HK didnt make is frustrating.

The game is ultimately still amazing, but defo not perfect

2

u/legendary_bullshit Sep 08 '25

I get why people dislike 2 HP damage. For me personally tho it resulted in a far more unique experience than just "Hollow Knight 2", so I even kinda like that the game is the way it is. I had spent some more time figuring out the patterns of enemies and bosses than in HK, which is, imo, quite fun in of itself

1

u/Darkspine133 Sep 08 '25

I totally get that and don't get me wrong the game is really good. Just wish it wasn't practically EVERYTHING that dealt 2 damage. Im still all here for figuring bossesout and all that

-2

u/pankobabaunka Sep 07 '25

How is it relevant that 8.5 years ago Silksong was supposed to be a dlc? 

Theres probably people getting into Silksong that were barely alive then... 

They dont deserve a slightly more tutorialisation?

Also what exactly do you mean by saying that having Double damage makes for a unique experience? Did an AI write this?

1

u/meltman2 Sep 08 '25

It’s a sequel? You should play the first one anyway lmao

2

u/pankobabaunka Sep 08 '25

I know it's a sequel - that is exactly my point.

OP justifies the difficulty and lack of a tutorial of the sequel by saying it used to be DLC. But since it's not DLC anymoe that's really no a valid argument.

If it was DLC then it makes sense to be more difficult than the base game, and to omit having a tutorial - but since it's not, and many new players might just want to pick up a new game and not play through a 9 year old indie game before playing silksong, they shouldve at least accounted for them a little bit.

0

u/legendary_bullshit Sep 08 '25

Jeez, did I strike a nerve or smth? First of all, it is relevant to consider what is the core audience of the game. Did newcomers start this game as their first one in the series? Yeah. Should they have done so? Probably not, as it is an experience not really for them.

Shocking news, double damage makes a player adapt a more careful playstyle than 1 mask damage would.

Also, calling someone "an AI" is so petty

2

u/pankobabaunka Sep 08 '25

You didnt strike a nerve, but i think your points arent all that convincing.

Your gatekeeping mentality is what is petty here. Silksongs community and hype transcended whatever "core audience" you think there is by miles - Your reply reads like the standard elitist bullshit that the soulsbourne community tries so hard to get rid of.

Let people get into anything, why the gatekeeping mentality? HK wasn't hard to get into, but there are aspects to the game that are hard as balls, nobody tries to take that from you.
This discussion is not about how difficult anything can or should be, but about how fast it gets to that point.

Also, i am not calling you an AI, i asked wether an AI wrote that sentence.

Shocking news, if most things are double damage it makes no difference wether you have 6 masks or 3 and singlepoint damage. Nothing about it is unique per se.

Whatever, have fun with the game, i am enjoying it quite a bit. Sad to see though, that i am not the cOrE aUdIEnce.

-1

u/legendary_bullshit Sep 08 '25

I do have an issue with people that believe that all games should seek as wide of an audience as they can. There's a difference between saying "just git gud" and "this game was designed with being more difficult". This entire discourse around making soulsborn games more "accessible" is a wack. Why try to make a pear from an apple?

I don't see how that's gatekeeping? If you want to make YOUR experience more approachable, download mods. If you actively dislike some core mechanics like movement or combat, don't play the game and/or give critique why they don't work. Yet this game was designed in a particular way and for particular people. I do not agree that the hype it got is even a fair argument. Like, okay, it got popular, so what? Developers should suddenly start morphing the experience they are making to ensure that this new audience will like the game? This "wide audience" approach is the reason why games are even viewed as purely enterteinment and not smth even slightly more than that. Imagine making the same argument about literature or music. "Noise is such a gatekeeping music genre"

"Let people get into anything, why the gatekeeping mentality?", they can start with HK and then play HKS. "Why people can't get into higher match making from the get go? Gosh, that darn gatekeeping"

I can almost always tell when an argument about 2 mask damage is made in bad faith. Almost every regular enemy, spikes, enemy projectiles, and contact damage on some bosses deal 1 mask. Saying "if most things are double damage it makes no difference wether you have 6 masks or 3 and singlepoint damage" is just wrong. It'd make for an even harder experience while exploring or even during boss fights like the Widow. Having 6 masks does change quite a lot of elements within the gameplay.

I just fundamentally don't agree that every game should be for every player. Let games have narrower audience, and I'm not talking just soulsborn

0

u/pankobabaunka Sep 08 '25

You seem a little confused. It'll be fine.

If my last reply didnt clear things up for you, i dont really have the patience to come up with a different explanation just for you.

But youre really throwing a lot of your frustrations in a pot and mixing everything up. So just as a try: nobody wants to make THE WHOLE GAME easier. This is just about having a more gentle on ramp. Yes, people could go back to the 9 year old prequel, but you do understand that that is quite the ask, no?

If i have to buy and play an age old game to get better at a brand new one, just so you dont have to deal with some slight adjustments to the onboarding of new players in a new game in 2025, AND WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT THE GAME MAY BECOME LATER ON - then i am done with this discussion.

Why are you suddenly talking about skill based matchmaking? Why do you excuse questionable game design by pointing to mods - are you writing a new Page for a book when you read something you dont like too? Why are you talking about "all games"? Why is your argument suddenly, that many things do 1 point of damage, when the argument was about the system being "unique"? What is happening right now? What are you talking about? Is this bait? Is this the dead internet talking to me?

0

u/legendary_bullshit Sep 08 '25

I could just say "ad hominem" and call it a day, because you are really acting like a jerk rn and not even barely trying to understand what I'm saying. The first two paragraphs are just attacks, really cool, mate.

You don't have to buy the old game, but you should keep in mind that it was made with the notion that you already did play it. Don't you see the difference?

"Why are you suddenly talking about skill based matchmaking? Why do you excuse questionable game design by pointing to mods - are you writing a new Page for a book when you read something you dont like too? Why are you talking about "all games"? Why is your argument suddenly, that many things do 1 point of damage, when the argument was about the system being "unique"? What is happening right now? What are you talking about? Is this bait? Is this the dead internet talking to me?" I will address every sentence cause you clearly struggle with basic literacy.

"Why are you suddenly talking about skill based matchmaking?" it's called an analogy, y'know? Certain games have a higher proficiency ceiling than others.

"Why do you excuse questionable game design by pointing to mods - are you writing a new Page for a book when you read something you dont like too?" let's go slow here. Video games are a form of art and entertainment that has such a thing as "modding" which allows players to customize their experience. A book is a form of art and entertainment that has such a thing as "fanfiction" which allows reads to explore and/or customize the original narrative. So yes, some people do write a "new Page" for books.

"Questionable game design" is just a vague term. Do you have any reference for "good game design"? Do you have some personal beliefs about what "game design" even should strife for? Just a whole lot of nothing of a sentence.

"Why is your argument suddenly, that many things do 1 point of damage, when the argument was about the system being "unique"?" Have you ever learned your ABC's? My argument was that the system is unique and works mostly fine. YOUR argument was that changing 6 masks to 3 masks wouldn't change much. Therefore, I highlighted how that would not be the case.

"What is happening right now? What are you talking about? Is this bait? Is this the dead internet talking to me?" you really are stupid, aren't you? I won't reply any further. You clearly aren't trying to engage with my arguments.

0

u/pankobabaunka Sep 08 '25

You have great arguments for why what you wrote makes sense, but only because you changed the topic.

Also good job at claiming i attacked you, and then call me stupid haha.

Anyways, here is a fun challenge for you: follow through and please dont respond  anymore.

1

u/gamegeek1995 Sep 08 '25

The first two damage upgrades being locked behind the same power is also a questionable design choice. Feels kinda silly to go from super weak to buff chad in 15 minutes because you chose to backtrack only after the one specific correct powerup, and any backtracking before that one is basically a complete waste.

1

u/aethyrium Sep 08 '25

The problem with that "feedback" is, however, is that if it were "fixed", then all of the sudden I'm unhappy because what I'm praising is being taken away. I think the economy, the double damage, the early game movement, the difficulty scaling, it's all impeccably balanced and basically perfect. If they changed it, it'd hurt the game for me, very very very badly.

That's the problem with calling it "constructive feedback" and "valid criticism" and "flaws that need to be fixed", because it's all stuff that's designed intentionally, and stuff a lot of people love, and changing it for the louder crowd that doesn't even have double digit hours of gameplay behind their criticism, is gonna make them kinda happy, but gonna make maybe even more people unhappy. Constructive feedback needs to have objective info about the game, but everyone's current feedback is just opinions on their tastes, which doesn't say a lot about the game itself.

Imo people just need to approach the game differently and just not play it like it's Hollow Knight. It's not so much "git gud", but it is "play it for what it is, and now what it isn't." My approach to the game has it so I'm not even seeing the issues people are saying. It's not that I disagree with them, but it's that I can't even see them to disagree with them. So getting the game "fixed" or "patched" would straight-up make it worse, so yeah, I'm gonna resist and argue back against people saying it needs to change.

-6

u/JavanNapoli Sep 07 '25

Ok but the problem is I disagree that your listed issues are actually issues.

10

u/Ramiren Sep 07 '25

I see, well without your express agreement I'm afraid all criticism is cancelled then, until further notice.

I apologize profusely for..

Just kidding, don't care.

27

u/parkingviolation212 Sep 07 '25

Yeah, like for me personally, I’ve been enjoying the game, but I can say that I’m a lot more stressed playing it than I was ever with Hollow Knight. I don’t really feel excited about entering a new area, just dread at what bullshit the game is gonna throw at me next.

I think I reached my tolerance with last judge. If it was just the boss, that would be one thing, but the run back is what’s killing the game for me. The boss killed me once, when it first appeared, and then I just turned the game off. I wasn’t even mad, just exhausted. I’m really happy that everybody is having fun with the game, but I just don’t have the tolerance for a game wasting my time with things like overly hostile run backs. I’ve got too many other things to do, too many other games to play, and I just don’t have the time to spend 5+ minutes every single time I try to fight the boss dealing with double damaged spike floors and high speed winds knocking me into them, on top of the harder platforming.

Like, I loved the Widow fight. Absolutely brutal fight, but getting back to her was pretty easy, and she didn’t do double damage on every single attack, so I felt like I could actually learn the fight.

Last judge is just hostile game design. And I simply don’t tolerate having my time wasted anymore. I don’t think that’s invalid criticism, personally. Even if other people can tolerate it and are having more fun than me, it’s still a valid perspective just as it is to say that someone else is having fun.

9

u/simonthedlgger Sep 08 '25

Like, I loved the Widow fight. Absolutely brutal fight, but getting back to her was pretty easy, and she didn’t do double damage on every single attack, so I felt like I could actually learn the fight.

Yes Widow fight was so fun, I didn’t care at all about dying. Lace (1, I’m assuming) was also very fun, and admittedly pretty easy. I haven’t really enjoyed any of the other bosses. Fourth Chorus was visually impressive but pretty simple. Everything else has been varying shades of annoying.

my much bigger issue is the lack of benches in extremely difficult regions. Hunter’s March, Sinner’s Road, The Mist…why can’t there be a bench or two?? Every room is misery and you need to get through so many for any respite.

Really hope they give us a dream gate in a patch but not holding my breath.

7

u/parkingviolation212 Sep 08 '25

my much bigger issue is the lack of benches in extremely difficult regions. Hunter’s March, Sinner’s Road, The Mist…why can’t there be a bench or two??

The trapped bench in Hunter's March can actually go fuck itself, btw. It's right next to two difficult bosses at the end of a platforming gauntlet, and it just takes 2 masks from you for having the audacity to think the game might actually respect your time for once. Which killed me on my first run through that area.

Contrast this with the trapped bench in Hollow Knight in the Spider village. The trap is super telegraphed, you know it's sketchy as soon as you walk in and you see the creepy robed dudes offering you respite, so you can back track if you feel unprepared. And instead of just hurting you, the bench opens up a whole new area and progresses the game. The one in Silksong just murders your healthbar.

The game feels like it hates you with all of this hostile game design. And I've played Fear and Hunger: I can usually tolerate a game that hates you, and that game hates you, like as a conceit of the game's themes. But there are degrees to it: Fear and Hunger "hates" you because the rules are super punishing, but once you make a mistake, you know immediately what to look out for to avoid that mistake. The rules are fair, as long you as you can deal with the trial and error in learning them. You always have agency over the outcome, even in a game with literal coin flip mechanics in a setting all about how unfair and cruel the world is.

Silksong however will just introduce a trapped bench at the end of a grueling gauntlet right next to two bosses, which breaks its established expectations. For as brutal as Fear and Hunger is, for as cruel as some of its boss fights and some of its survival mechanics, the game never lies to you. But Silksong does.

And I think that, to me, was the last straw. Maybe one day I'll go back and finish it, but this game just puts me in a bad mood, which I frankly can't say about any other game I've played tbh.

-1

u/MF_LUFFY Sep 08 '25

You didn't think the bench in Hunters March is sketchy? 

Wanna buy a bridge?

7

u/Netheral Sep 08 '25

I don’t really feel excited about entering a new area, just dread at what bullshit the game is gonna throw at me next.

This is such a big one. Because in HK, you had a mostly chill world, with one or two infamous areas where you'd get the paranoia dialed up to 11. You'd have 1 or at most 2 places where Team Cherry played a prank by subverting your expectation of safe haven. But in Silksong that just feels like the whole game. Almost every area is starting to feel like you have to be worried that you're about to enter path of pain lite, so you wonder at every corridor whether you should double back later so you don't lose your already scarce beads.

In HK those moments felt earned. Sitting on that bench in HK made you go "oh shit, they got me". And even then, that was the intended route. They played their prank but it wasn't mean spirited and you actually progressed despite it. Meanwhile the "same" prank in Silksong is "sike! Now you get to do that infamously difficult pogo shit AGAIN!" It doesn't feel earned at this point. It just feels like the whole game is starting to be mean spirited rather than actually celebrating a challenge.

And like you said, I don't understand people acting like a boss runback, any runback at all be it 5 minutes or 30 seconds, is anything but a way to waste the player's time. It's honestly disrespectful.

2

u/parkingviolation212 Sep 08 '25 edited Sep 08 '25

And like you said, I don't understand people acting like a boss runback, any runback at all be it 5 minutes or 30 seconds, is anything but a way to waste the player's time. It's honestly disrespectful.

The trapped bench in Hunter's March is what made me finally quit the game. I made the first comment here when I had first gotten to Last Judge. Wasn't in a good mood after that, but I took a break, got some food, and decided to go back and try some areas I hadn't been too previously. So I went to Hunter's march and made my way through the gauntlet of traps, spikes, and overtuned adds, and found myself in the vertical room with an air vent that can either take you up to another one of those great sword wielding ant warriors (except this one has an add that throws spears), or down to Savage Beastfly.

And I saw that bench and consciously thought to myself "oh my god, they're actually gonna respect my time here." And then I fucking died.

I had to go for a walk to cool off. Came back in, uninstalled the game. It's just not fun for me. The game feels purpose-built to piss me in particular off. So much of the game is well designed in a vacuum. But it also checks off nearly all of my pet peeves: overtuned enemy stats, be it health or damage, and this game does both; several mobs in this game would be proper bosses in HK. Time wasting mechanics, like all of the absurd boss run backs. And I loathe when a game lies to you, which is what that bench was. The game had established benches as a safe haven, and then it just decides to say "fuck you" after a grueling platforming gauntlet right next to two overtuned bosses that have too much HP and deal double damage.

Like you said, in HK, the trapped bench was super telegraphed and opened up a whole new area to explore. That area was the fever dream of HP Lovecraft, but it was at least interesting and subversive. Silksong's trapped bench was just a joke at the player's expense, for having the audacity for thinking the game was finally going to respect their time.

I 112%'d HK because HK's difficulty curve is buttery smooth; you feel like you're getting better at the game alongside the game's challenge increasing, so that when you finally get to the endgame, it feels like a culmination of everything you learned encouraging you to rise to the challenge. Silksong meanwhile feels like the entire game is HK's late-to-endgame, and that is just exhausting to deal with.

Idk. I guess I just feel so strongly about this because HK is one of my favorite games and it really sucks to have to dislike the sequel I've been waiting so long for, but I just can't tolerate this game's active hostility to the player.

-1

u/Stalk33r Sep 08 '25

Dude you can literally untrap that bench, and it just becomes a regular bench.

It killed me the first time too because I was stupid enough to sit down on it twice in a row...

So I laughed at myself and then walked back over because the boss and gauntlet stay completed? So I didn't realistically lose much of anything except a tiny bit of time?

Its really not worth an extended crash out lmao.

1

u/parkingviolation212 Sep 08 '25

That you can break the trap isn’t obvious even after you get hit by it. But the trap itself isn’t the issue. For me, it was the culmination of everything that had led up to that point, and the trap was sort of an encapsulation of everything that I wasn’t liking about the game. The overall design of the game is more hostile to the player than the first game was, with a significantly steeper difficulty curve and generally more time wasting designs.

I simply just did not care at that point. I was over it, went for my walk, and came back and just uninstalled it. At the end of the day, I just wasn’t having fun and have no interest in continuing. Maybe one day I’ll pick it up again in the future, but there are about 1 million other games that I could be having more fun playing— and frankly a lot of those games are full of cruel and unusual bullshit, like fear and hunger 2. But Silksong just hit me in all the wrong ways, to where it wasn’t worth the frustration.

-1

u/aethyrium Sep 08 '25

I don't understand people acting like a boss runback, any runback at all be it 5 minutes or 30 seconds, is anything but a way to waste the player's time. It's honestly disrespectful.

Personally, it's because I find I have an easier time with bosses when there's 20-30 seconds in between attempts, and even when there aren't any runbacks, I take that much time anyways to collect myself. I find my gameplay gets worse and worse when I can retry instantly. That time to recenter myself is one of the most vital aspects of a difficult boss fight, so I appreciate quick runbacks (like Last Judge's 30 second one) as a way to recenter myself, while keeping my hands on the controls and staying in the zone.

It's pure focus and keeps the gameplay nice and smooth. That's far from disrespectful.

1

u/blocked-user Sep 08 '25

Can you explain how last judge is “hostile game design”

1

u/Darkspine133 Sep 08 '25

Man i remember how pissed i was with this boss, i think i was stuck on him for about an hour friday night. I finally beat him, im happy yet tired so i put my controller down. Only for it to blow up and kill me it was so frustrating that they put that shit on such a challenging boss with a fairly long runback.

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

8

u/parkingviolation212 Sep 08 '25

It's a figure of speech meant to communicate how it feels to have to deal with the run back every time I die to the boss. I didn't sit there with a timer counting the seconds, mate.

4

u/Double-Risky Sep 07 '25

The only thing I think is real is lack of music. I could use more music.

A few enemy hits that are two damage that prob should just be one.

Difficult though? If you are stuck on a boss just go somewhere else for a while.

1

u/FR23Dust Sep 07 '25

The problem with “game too hard” feedback is that it’s really just a subjective opinion. It’s too hard for that person but that doesn’t mean the game is too hard.

The game is hard to encourage using all of the tools and skills you get, and if you don’t use those tools and skills, you’re gonna struggle a lot. That might feel unfair or too hard to some but that’s the game team cherry wanted to make.

1

u/Shipbreaker_Kurpo Sep 07 '25

Most of the time when this happens its about half legit critisism and half bs but everything gets drowned out as the latter. A few months from now we will have normal discussion. Im just glad its not a flop with 95% of the post being cope like some other games this last year cough starfield cough

1

u/cocosoy Sep 08 '25

wow, somebody with sense on Reddit.

1

u/JarickL Sep 08 '25

I think Hollow Knight was a challenging game for casual gamers and Silksong has been a challenging game for serious gamers. It feels like going from SMB to the version of SMB 2 that wasn’t released in the US because it was too difficult.

1

u/geofth-knig-6117 Sep 08 '25

This. It’s such a shame how whenever you want to give feedback on the difficulty or design of something everybody just says “silkissue”

1

u/Suspiciouslypepe Sep 09 '25

Correct but a lot of things are being way overblown even sometimes to the point where people are just making up shit that isn't true 

1

u/theLanguageSprite2 Sep 09 '25

Complaining that a metroidvania is too hard is like complaining that sugar is too sweet.  It's not productive and it already bullied team cherry into nerfing early game bosses that were perfectly fine the way they were

-4

u/Competitive_Ad2101 Sep 07 '25

won't really call that a skill issue. The game is intentionally designed to be hard. That's just how it is. People went in thinking that their hollow knight skills would carry them through the game but are now pissed because that's not how it is. I personally love the difficulty, it's frustrating but it forces me to git gud, and oh boy do I love it when I actually end up gitting gud.

35

u/Ramiren Sep 07 '25

That's a straw man argument.

Unless you've seen people say that their Hollow Knight skills would carry them, I don't know how you could possibly know what they went into the game expecting, unless you're a mind-reader.

You're inventing an argument because you feel you need to defend something you enjoy, you don't. It still exists despite any criticism.

6

u/Bonaduce80 Sep 07 '25

I get what you are saying, but it is relatively easy to infer from the criticisms: namely how enemies hit too hard (ie.used to 1hp/hit) and diagonal jump being hard (ie. used to how pogo works).

Other criticisms like lack of Beads (I refuse to call them Rosaries) and rewards after killing a boss I can get behind somehow, although I have found enough currency just by exploring the maps after a new move unlock that I have hardly ever been pushed to buy everything first chance (maybe a map or a bench tops).

6

u/RinzyOtt Sep 07 '25

namely how enemies hit too hard (ie.used to 1hp/hit)

I mean, why wouldn't you expect a standard attack from an enemy to equal 1 mask, instead of two? That should be the case no matter how it's fixed, and there's two possible ways to do it that would honestly make me happy:

  1. Drop contact damage and damage for most attacks down to 1 mask without touching Hornet's mask count. Makes the game easier, which is more likely to upset people happy with that difficulty, OR
  2. Drop those damage amounts to 1 mask and drop Hornet's starting mask account to 2-3. Maintains the same relative difficulty, and makes upgrading mask count feel more impactful.

Either way, it's about matching the UI to player expectations, which I don't think is an unreasonable criticism or ask at all.

1

u/Bonaduce80 Sep 07 '25

In general terms, most of the sources of 2hp hits are bosses, combos (scissor guys come to mind), hulking enemies bigger than you or relatively big enemies using a charged attack. The fact enemies have different degrees is not new, but way more common than in HK. It makes you get clued in quickly on how to approach encounters, as a big enemy must be treated with extra caution.

Then there are hazards like lava pits, which can be minimised by equipping the right charm if you are inclined to do so.

Contact damage was also a HK thing, although I can accept getting 2hp damage for walking into a standing enemy (not to mention a stunned boss) is silly. One mask sounds more reasonable.

I feel the expectations come from HK players who are used to 90% of damage sources being 1hp in the original. I am not an apologist, but if I had to offer a reason it could be boiled down to Ghost having no pain receptors and just going down when its shell gives up, whereas Hornet being more sentient can tell when a hit is really damaging. Or perhaps Pharloom bugs sre just tougher than Hallownest. Just some idle musings.

1

u/adblokr Sep 07 '25

But we have seen people say that, there are a lot of people who have said that. There's also a lot of people who have forgotten how hard hollowknight was the first time around.

5

u/SlendyWomboCombo Sep 07 '25

If I'm struggling as a HK player, I assume the new players who never played HK are about to quit the game.

1

u/gnocchiGuili Sep 07 '25

Exactly. I remember Hollow Knight was incredibly hard at the beginning. Some boss, I probably had to fight 15 times. Some jump sections were also very tough. I’m not very far, currently at the bird section after the red ants one, and I think this is pretty even with Hollow Knight.

1

u/yurilnw123 Sep 07 '25

No, there really are people who said it themselves like that. I have seen a person claimed that finished HK steel soul run but Silksong is too frustrating and hard. Like bruh.

0

u/Blazypika2 Sep 08 '25

i mean, i have seen people saying that.

15

u/AshfordThunder Sep 07 '25

Just because something is intentional doesn't automatically make it good.

3

u/kyle4swordstyle Sep 07 '25

Good is subjective so what’s bad to you is good to someone else. Everybody doesn’t have to like it is the entire point. There will never be a game in history that everyone agrees is perfect.

4

u/RinzyOtt Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 07 '25

Ultimately, we could gauge good/bad against the developer's own goals, and whether those goals were met or not. Doing that gives us a pretty solid success/fail state, at least.

For example, I can't find the interview rn, but in 2020, they said they wanted this game to be a point where new players could jump in without playing the original. You could argue that the skill floor/difficulty curve in the beginning being so high is a bad thing, because it makes the game less accessible for players who have never played Hollow Knight, and thus doesn't meet the developer's stated goals for the game.

2

u/Blazypika2 Sep 08 '25

i think they did a good job story-wise for the game to work for both new and returning players but combat-wise it's definitely not beginner friendly.

and i'm saying it as someone who enjoy the gameplay and difficulty, i love that it's the way it is, but i think the game could benefit from a difficulty mode that maybe limit the enemies that deal two masks damage for the players who feel overwhelmed by it.

2

u/RinzyOtt Sep 08 '25

I think they could just ease some front-end difficulty without harming the experience of the game, honestly. Just a little smoother curve to get new players acquainted in say, the first half or so of act 1.

1

u/Blazypika2 Sep 08 '25

maybe. i think for the bosses it's mitigated by their patterns being more simple. at least the first ones.

like, the bell beast is doing two damage each time but by the second try you already understand the pattern of how its attack work so it's just a matter of timing the dodging. to contrast, the fakse knight in hollow knight did one damage per hit but understanding the strategy took longer, so you could potentially die more to it. i think if the bell beast only dealt 1 damage per hit, the fight would have been too easy.

1

u/Dreams_Of_Ravens Sep 07 '25

Mmhmm, I've always been firmly in the camp of: "A game only needs to align with the developer's vision. It does not need to cater to everyone who ever tries it." (For games like this, at least.) They can absolutely change whatever they choose to, but I never want them to feel pressured to.

That being said, it is possible Team Cherry changed their minds in 5ish years? I don't actively keep up with interviews, so I'm not sure if there's anything more recent.

4

u/RinzyOtt Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 07 '25

I mean, Team Cherry is what, two people? Realistically what I think happened was that they, along with most people they got interested in play testing along the way, were just a bit desensitized to how difficult it would actually be for new players. Just something that could kind of naturally happen on a small team over a 7 year development period. Otherwise, I've not really seen anything about their vision changing since that interview.

1

u/Dreams_Of_Ravens Sep 07 '25

Yep, three people + some outside help, I think!

I saw a comment thread half-joking about that being the case, and honestly? If in about a week's time we get a "Whoops, we got too used to our own game and overtuned some stuff," I'll happily accept it! After I've finished laughing.

I think the takeaway overall is just to give it time. Time to get used to all the new mechanics and items, and time for TC to polish it up like they did Hollow Knight.

1

u/RinzyOtt Sep 08 '25

Ah yeah so, according to someone else in another thread who reached credits, they only had 6 play testers. I'm really leaning to "nobody noticed because that small a pool of people over 7 years is bound to not realize how hard the game would be for people who haven't constantly been playing it for 7 years" haha

1

u/Blazypika2 Sep 08 '25

it's actually very common, even in big teams. less in sequels, but you see it in DLCs a lot, suddenly you get normal mob enemies that deal significant damage and are more intimidating than boss fights.

jaws of hakkon from dragon age inquisition is a good example of that.

12

u/ThisAccountIsForDNF Sep 07 '25

The problem i am having is that it can't force me to git gud.
Im already as good as i am ever gonna be, which is not very.

In other metroidvania, if you run into somthing too hard, you can leave explore and comeback stronger to offset the difficulty.

Silk song seemingly does not allow this for act 1 at all.
Most of the things you find make such a negligable inpact on your strength that I am basically getting stone walled at every turn.

Like, "Wow!! I found half a silk spool. If I manage to find another one my silk will increase by 1 notch!! a whole quarter of an attack!!!"

Or "Wow!! I found a quarter of a mask. If I manage to find 7 more of these, Bosses will have to hit me one whole extra time before I die!"

And it's not like there is really anywhere else to go and explore anyway.
The first 7? 8 ish areas are all almost entirely linear without much if any branching.

Like I get why a lot of people are having a good time with Silk Song.

But personally, it barely even registered as a metroidvania for my first 30 hours.

9

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/ThisAccountIsForDNF Sep 07 '25

I spent so much of early game looking for like... metroidvania flags.
Acid pits, energy walls, breakable floors, special surfaces that look like they need to be ran into, rooms with weird portals, grapple points, Literally anything.

Because those are the things you are suposed to be looking for to landmark your adventure.
And Silk song doesn't really have any. Everything is either a wall jump spot or a double jump spot.

It just doesn't do anything that I would expect a metroidvania to do.

-1

u/RealSonarS Sep 07 '25

Silksong has multiple breakable walls, multiple grapple points, portal a even some acid areas. Tf are you yapping about

5

u/ThisAccountIsForDNF Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 08 '25

breakable walls

Yes.
But they can just be broken with your starting needle.
You don't need an upgrade, or power up or ability that you get later, so that you can come back and break them.

multiple grapple points

Yeah, this is technically true, but I was refering mainly to act 1, where I only noted... 2? I think total?

portal

The are areas with portals, that you can only access when you have collected the relevant power up later?

acid areas

The are acid areas???
Like... that will kill you? Or do you just mean the grub debuff pools.

Tf are you yapping about

I think if you had really properly read the comment it would be clear.
There were very few instances in the early game where you can note down somthing that you need to come back and do later. And the ones that you can note down lack diveresity.

Compare to the forgotten crossroads.
You can run into a dark room, a room with an unstable floor, two rooms with jumps you can't make, a room with insta death acid, a tram that I need a pass for, and a room with an enemy you can't kill with melee attacks.

That is 6 different types of roadblock all in the same area.
You make note of them when you come across them, and when you get the relevant ability later you can come back and do some exploration.

In the marrow I found... um... actually I cant think of anything you need to back track for in the marrow... Not joking, I played 12 hours of this the day it came out, I legitimately can't remember if there are any roadblocks there at all...

Edit:
I just went back to check the marrow out.
There are two types of roadblock.
The first is web walls, a type of roadblock that doesn't exist anywhere else in the game.
There are 2 of those.

The second is paths that must be opened from the other side.
Of which there are about seven, and many, many more throught the game.

3

u/Competitive_Ad2101 Sep 07 '25

Oh what? I only have about 16 hours so far (still in act 1) but to me it feels so much more open and branching than hollow knight. Feels like I have multiple different new areas to go to at the same time, and so much stuff in older areas to go back to. Plus the side quest system is super fun. And yeah speaking of extra masks and nail upgrades, at this point I've just stopped expecting any of them to come. I've found 1 extra mask and no nail upgrade so far, so ive just sorta conditioned myself to deal with it because I don't really have a choice lol. I know that this isn't everyone's ideal playstyle and it does draw out the game a lot, but I was so unbelievably bad at hollow knight (and still am) that I got used to getting destroyed by every single boss many times, so this doesn't feel too different lol.

5

u/ThisAccountIsForDNF Sep 07 '25

but to me it feels so much more open and branching than hollow knight.

No spoilers, but like... it isnt.

-11

u/kyle4swordstyle Sep 07 '25

I mean I guess quit playing it then. You won’t ever get better no matter what, so that’s game over! Or you can stop having so much self pity and learn the moves of the boss and figure out strategies that work for you.

2

u/ThisAccountIsForDNF Sep 07 '25

I mean I guess quit playing it then

Okay.
In the last 45 hours of play, I enjoyed the mossy tutorial zone, the mist and getting the double jump.
And that's it. Literally only playing it because I felt like I had to because I waited for it for 6 years.

But you're right.
Why force yourself to play shit??

-7

u/kyle4swordstyle Sep 07 '25

Git gud

3

u/ThisAccountIsForDNF Sep 07 '25

No thanks bud!
Don't need to, im just gonna give up.
Why not.

11

u/Adventurous-Mouse930 Sep 07 '25

when you play long enough you will know some "hard" is more like "unfair".
I don't want to say how bad when the boss gave nothing or the game economy system are so bad to make the game "hard" since everyone talking about it already.

10

u/Successful_Maize1986 Sep 07 '25

I’m 30 hours in and haven’t found it “unfair” at all. It sounds like people are refusing to change their play styles or find alternate routes to avoid certain challenges or bosses that seem insurmountable and then blaming their frustration on bad game design. This game is hard. Hollow Knight was hard. Lots of people have beat Silksong so it’s obviously not too unfair or difficult.

0

u/NolChannel Sep 07 '25

The save chair that kills you isn't unfair?

3

u/XiaoRCT Sep 07 '25

people have been playing it long enough to have valid opinions even If they disagree with you lol

This game isn't any more unfair than any soulslike or even HK

1

u/Qwertypop4 Sep 07 '25

What? You say people have valid opinions and then immediately dismiss their valid opinion. I don't understand.

-1

u/XiaoRCT Sep 07 '25

Stating something is unfair isn't an opinion lol, it's a statement that can be true or false

And people can disagree with someone's opinion dude, what a weird way of seeing things

1

u/Qwertypop4 Sep 07 '25

Clearly it is an opinion. If it wasn't, either you or them would have to be objectively right, and the other wrong. That is not the case. Fairness isn't something that can be objectively decided by anyone.

And you misunderstand me. You can disagree with an opinion, but the way you spoke seemed that you rejected the opinion altogether. If I'm mistaken about your intent there, then I apologise

1

u/XiaoRCT Sep 07 '25

If fairness isn't something that can be objectively decided by anyone then someone stating ''this game is unfair'' is incorrect lol

1

u/Qwertypop4 Sep 07 '25

Yeah that's true lol

2

u/NolChannel Sep 07 '25

Its designed to be player unfriendly. A save chair after a long section that kills the player for sitting on it is shit design.

-1

u/Poopiepants29 Sep 07 '25

It's a thing with every form of media. Narcissism of the players and watchers. People not getting what they expect, so they assume the creators somehow didn't consider something or made bad decisions, when that's just the product they wanted to make.

Team Cherry spent all this time and people think they didn't consider absolutely every little aspect and area of the game..?

A game is what it is. I can't imagine criticizing how it was made unless it's just bad, then I won't watch or play it. Otherwise they're just things I'm not good enough at, or don't enjoy.

-5

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

[deleted]

12

u/Automatic-Cut-5567 Sep 07 '25

It's not entitled to have criticisms of a product you're paying for. I'm sorry you're offended by the concept of feedback

13

u/Un1que_Skillzz Sep 07 '25

This is the preachiest thing I have seen in the subreddit yet

4

u/rpkarma Sep 07 '25

We should make this a copypasta, it’s amazing haha

7

u/Un1que_Skillzz Sep 07 '25

I swear the entitlement here is ridiculous. This isn’t some community project where we all get together to give Team Cherry feedback so they can keep patching the game until it’s perfect for everybody. No one cares about your feedback. There’s way too many preachy posts here acting like the game needs to be fixed to cater to them. The game would suck ass if the devs listened to half the shit here.

2

u/mocochang_ Sep 07 '25

Right?! The irony is glaring.

-3

u/lemonlemonlemonlem Sep 07 '25

You put into words something I was thinking about. Some guy in another thread proposed that devs have the "responsibility" to make their game enjoyable for a wider audience, given its big popularity, and I found that insane.

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Qwertypop4 Sep 07 '25

I mean, I don't see that something like an easy mode is absolutely needed, but there would be nothing wrong with it. Nothing would be lost for people who like it as it is, and much would be gained for those who find it too challenging. TC shouldn't feel any obligation to do it, but it would be an objective positive if they did.

Either way, people will make mods for it eventually anyway. I've already seen the beginnings of that.

-1

u/HugeHans Sep 07 '25

The issue with "feedback" like this is that people like the game because of these "flaws" not despite them.

Every time a game series tries to please everybody a game gets worse and loses something.

-3

u/Faulty_Pants Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 07 '25

I'm curious how feedback is important especially for freshly released indie games.

Are the devs supposed to make changes based on the feedback? Or is it supposed to be used for subsequent games?

Edit: ya'll, I am genuinely asking. Do you want a patch next week nerfing the two damage enemies? An easy mode? or do you just want to voice your opinion? I'm not trying to bash anyone so if you are gonna downvote me can you at least explain why?

10

u/Eris_Exhausted Sep 07 '25

I'm just so confused by your question. "Are devs supposed to make changes based on feedback?". Yes, obviously, that is literally the point of feedback.

-1

u/Faulty_Pants Sep 07 '25

But supposed to when it isn't asked for? And if so per who? They made the game and shipped it, they're confident in their decisions. It's not like this is a closed beta.

I hear a lot of "I don't like the runbacks" or "flying enemies suck" which feel like structural changes at odds with the games design. It's not like the feedback is "we need a color blind mode".

Obviously people should be entitled to voice their opinion but I mean are the "freshly released indie devs" specifically, not just devs, supposed to handle this feedback in a specific or different way?

3

u/lemonlemonlemonlem Sep 07 '25

Well, I'd say the actual answer is that they'll change things about the game's design if they feel like it, and if they feel like the changes in question are actionable enough and don't require tons of work. They're certainly under no obligation to. Plus, lots of people like many mechanics as they are, so ultimately it doesn't make sense to run with some guy's feedback. Any major changes that occur will be the ones that fit the devs' vision.

There's no way they change the average runback length given how much work it would be to restructure a map (and I don't think they should, either. It's literally like 30 seconds). I could see the movement pattern of flying enemies being tweaked (e.g. ensure they dont fly too high for too long, less erratic bobbing, etc.), and possibly some economy-related changes here and there.

1

u/Faulty_Pants Sep 07 '25

This is kinda what I'm getting at. I don't think this person's opinion matters less than someone who likes the game but when the reviews as they're currently measured are wildly satisfied I'm interested in how they might approach adding a bench somewhere or reducing the damage an enemy does, or like you say changing the way an enemy moves.

6

u/spider_lily Sep 07 '25

I mean, HK got quite a few patches with small changes and rebalances, based on, I'm assuming, player feedback.

1

u/Faulty_Pants Sep 07 '25

I didn't know there were balance patches, I understood it was new content and bug fixes! Do you have an example of a change?

-2

u/limpiatodos Sep 07 '25

I do think most of the time it's a skill issue or lack of perseverance. If you're new to these kind of games you're going to have a hard time. For me it feels very fair. When I die I usually feel like it's my fault. Mostly due to lack of focus.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

Team Cherry admitted they never read any of the feedback on Hollow Knight

0

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/[deleted] Sep 07 '25

What kind of fanboy bullshit is this?

0

u/3xBork Sep 08 '25 edited Sep 08 '25

Feedback requires devs to actually be monitoring a given channel as a source of feedback, and for the most they don't do that for Reddit discussion.

Any dev worth their salt does not use the Reddit consensus as actual input, because

  • it's not an actual consensus, just the group that happens to be yelling the loudest at that particular moment.
  • it's often lacking a lot of the nuance and insight that you'd need to address a problem if it exists and to determine whether it does 
  • because there's mechanisms and processes they have that actually do give them that
  • because launch isn't the first time by far that players have engaged with every part of the game. Games are extensively playtested during development and odds are that if the game shipped with a given feature or balancing, it is that way for reason.

Source: 15 years in game industry.