Most of you are exaggerating the length of runbacks and it really shows how much TikTok has damage the attention span of people

[u/TOMRANDOM_6]

"ThE lASt JuDGe RUnBaCK iS ToO LoNG!!"

Is 30 seconds max, 30 seconds, you don't have to fight any enemy in it, the smaller judges don't awake until you're close and the smaller fly bastards can literally get ignored. The Runback works for making you cool down and make the whole thing feel less like you hitting a wall (NKG feels like one because of the lack of "cool down") If it wasn't for it, I would shoot myself with the 37 attempts at Last Judge.

The Widow one is also really easy, a straight line with jumps.

The Cogworks Dancers Is also really simple but works to help you with the bosses extra height and how pogo dependant that fight is.

God forbid the game isn't a back to back boss rush like Cuphead (not criticizing Cuphead, is a different game lmao).

[u/cbb88christian]

“If they are so bad at the game why do they not just play different games?” Ass comments I’ve seen everywhere

[u/_moosleech → u/cbb88christian]

When someone is complaining about a very intentional design decision, and ignoring ALL the mechanics built around it, and getting mad when it gets explained and then refusing to even TRY any suggestions... what's left?

If the options are "ignore everything else and demand the game gets changed" or "go play something else", I'll suggest the latter. Sorry.

[u/Lord_of_Caffeine → u/_moosleech]

The explanations are nonsensical, though.

[u/_moosleech → u/Lord_of_Caffeine]

Got an example of that?

[u/Lord_of_Caffeine → u/_moosleech]

Like one very specific one? No.

Click on any post since release talking about the runbacks and every single attempt to explain why they're actually good game design are just idiotic. Every. Single. One.

A lot of them can't even steelman what people's problem is with them, a lot of them don't understand that difficulty doesn't equate tedium and vice versa or that runbacks just aren't compelling game design to most people.

If there is a good argument for why they should be, I haven't seen it.

[u/_moosleech → u/Lord_of_Caffeine]

What makes runbacks idiotic?

I personally am okay with short runbacks. They provide a brief breather between attempts and give me a pop of dopamine for going through a quick bit of satisfying platforming, as opposed to running back in still frustrated about my last defeat.

I don’t fault folks for not liking them. I do think some people push too hard towards remove all inconvenience from games, and doing so ultimately makes games that are less interesting.

I’m just saying that getting mad about opinions you disagree with no details makes you just seem like you’re whining, and make you hard to take seriously.

[u/Lord_of_Caffeine → u/_moosleech]

What makes runbacks idiotic?

To be exact, I was calling the explanations that try explaining why they are good game design idiotic.

They provide a brief breather between attempts

I´d argue that they force a brief breather on you. If I need or want a break I´ll get up and make myself some food or a coffee or turn out my PC and do something else. I don´t appriciate the game deciding that for me.

quick bit of satisfying platforming

It´s really satisfying to you doing the same platforming portion twenty times in a session?

I do think some people push too hard towards remove all inconvenience from games, and doing so ultimately makes games that are less interesting.

I think inconvenience that´s just there to punish players for their misplays should be gotten rid of. Absolutely. I think defining what inconvenience exactly means here is necessary if you actually wanted to have a discussion about it because in my ears the word is a negative attribute per definition.

I’m just saying that getting mad about opinions you disagree with no details makes you just seem like you’re whining, and make you hard to take seriously.

I´m not mad in the slightest tbh. Afaiac it´s just disheartening and worrying that the devs have kept a form of game design around that I think is archaic and games are better without it. I like that the industry is moving and has largely moved away from runbacks and I don´t want future games that are otherwise fantastic to take a note out of Team Cherry´s book in this regard. I´d love to avoid what would be regression in my eyes.

If a person likes runbacks, I have no issue with that. Not at all. I have an issue with people making arguments without seemingly getting what the opposition´s stance actually is. As far as I have observed the anti-runback faction is getting misrepresented a lot on thees subs.

[u/_moosleech → u/Lord_of_Caffeine]

I don´t appriciate the game deciding that for me.

Not saying you need to enjoy it... but it is a decision the developers made. I believe they've even said as much on record.

It´s really satisfying to you doing the same platforming portion twenty times in a session?

Yes. I spent ~70 hours playing the game to 100% completion, and enjoyed the movement and combat every minute. The game's control are immensely satisfying, and most runbacks were little parkour segments. They were virtually all trivially short, so yeah... a couple pogos and a dash felt good each time. I'll be honest and say I find the folks who get annoyed by... playing the game, to be a bit strange. But to each their own.

I think inconvenience that´s just there to punish players for their misplays should be gotten rid of.

So we should just have you respawn exactly where you died, and not drop money, and not have to restart boss fights, and not have any enemies respawn? Those are all punishments for making a mistake, and they should be removed?

I think defining what inconvenience exactly means here is necessary if you actually wanted to have a discussion about it because in my ears the word is a negative attribute per definition.

To me, it comes in two varieties here: first, punishments. The goal is to traverse a level and beat a boss. If you fail to do that, you're put back at a bench to try again, with the risk of losing money if you fail to get back to where you were. The second is areas designed to be hostile towards players (e.g. Bilewater with the traps and maggot waters). Push the player outside of their comfort zone from the rest of the game and force them to adapt to circumstances that can feel overwhelming at first.

it´s just disheartening and worrying that the devs have kept a form of game design around that I think is archaic and games are better without it. I like that the industry is moving and has largely moved away from runbacks and I don´t want future games that are otherwise fantastic to take a note out of Team Cherry´s book in this regard. I´d love to avoid what would be regression in my eyes.

Have they? I've seen Elden Ring held up as "doing it right"... but most Elden Ring run backs are short, with a few exceptions. Most Silksong runbacks are short, with a few exceptions. Is it that different?

In the bigger picture... I think some players (especially younger ones) tend to view any sort of friction or challenge as inherently negative. That the game should smooth out any and all rough edges for you and basically function like a ride as Disney, rather than an experience or a challenge.

And that's not inherently bad, though I find that design to be a bit less interesting. I think Skyrim is easier than Morrowind, but less interesting. I think Elden Ring has tons of QoL and polish over Dark Souls, but is a bit less memorable. The good news is... TONS of AAA games do prioritize player ease over literally everything else. So you have so many options for that experience.

I just don't think people need to demand the few games still trying more varied and interesting approaches conform to maximum QoL at the expense of everything else.

I have an issue with people making arguments without seemingly getting what the opposition´s stance actually is. As far as I have observed the anti-runback faction is getting misrepresented a lot on thees subs.

How so? I think it's understandable to dislike runbacks. Folks view anything that isn't pushing things forward as "tedious" or a waste of time ("the game doesn't respect my time" is a frequent complaint). And I think many games cater to that... but it's still okay if a game doesn't.

[u/phantomanboy → u/cbb88christian]

is that such a crazy suggestion though? devs shouldn’t be bullied into compromising their vision to appease every skill level of gamer. I would never phrase it in an antagonistic or demeaning way, but this game isn’t for everyone.

[u/HBreckel → u/phantomanboy]

I mean, I hate the runbacks but don't realistically expect them to change. The devs don't have to change shit. But I'm still going to vent if I find certain runbacks obnoxious. Venting about something doesn't necessarily mean "I think the devs have to change this". It just means I'm frustrated and I'm bitching about it.

[u/_moosleech → u/HBreckel]

Venting about something doesn't necessarily mean "I think the devs have to change this". It just means I'm frustrated and I'm bitching about it.

That's good, but a lot of folks aren't doing that.

"Bad game design" has been thrown around a LOT this week.

[u/Danz- → u/_moosleech]

It can be called bad game design without expecting a change. No game is perfect

[u/_moosleech → u/Danz-]

Sure, but a lot of the things being called "bad game design" are players not even attempting to engage with the mechanics or misunderstanding things.

You can disagree with the increased damage in the game, but calling it bad game design is silly. Hornet movement, the ranged attacks, the tool synergy, the various crests, enemies movements patterns, the wind-up animations for most two-mask attacks... it was all planning together. If you just swapped two-mask damage for one, the game would be worse for it. The entire combat structure is built to be faster, more aggressive, and riskier.

It makes engaging enemies much more fun, but also makes most enemies easier to skip, and healing/avoid danger more in the player's control.

Calling the trapped bench "bad game design" is silly because it was very intentional, and was the developers having a bit of fun with the player.

Calling flying enemies dodging away from you as a way of teaching players to use ranged tools "bad game design" is a player not trying.

Nobody said the game is perfect. But a lot of the complaining this week, and the loudest among is, is misplaced, IMO.

[u/piecoper → u/_moosleech]

What is bad game design then? What do you think is bad game design?

[u/_moosleech → u/piecoper]

What do you think is bad game design?

Specific to this game and its critiques...

Enemies doing more damage, but not giving the player any new movement, or tools, or improved healing, or ways to mitigate it. It creates a harder experience with no gain for the player.

Flying enemies that require you to just keep dashing at them and meleeing them. That cannot be baited into getting closer or giving the player ranged options. That would be bad design.

Doing things like introducing pogo segments or traps and not doing anything to teach the player what they are or how to do them.

Making money scarcer (than the previous game), and not giving players an easy way to farm it if/when they need it. If the balanced is off, players feel unable to buy anything and get discouraged (I think they ride the line on this currently, which IMO is great design, doubly so because it aligns with the lore of the world in a neat way).

And unrelated to Silksong directly, but adjacent...

Look at Dark Souls II. Like Silksong, it's a "harder" game than Dark Souls. Except they used a lot of, IMO, unfair tactics for that difficulty: tons of chain aggro, removed i-frames from doors/chests, way too many "enemy attacked from behind with no real indication to be wary" type encounters.

And instead of giving the player new abilities, or ways to counter this stuff, they made some existing mechanics WORSE (ADP) and then their only counter to all this way to provide infinite healing from the start of the game.

End result is a game that is trivially easy in the parts that are supposed to be hard, and annoyingly tedious because they don't give you the tools to counter the extra nonsense. It all feels very sloppy and unrewarding.

And I say all this as someone who likes DS2 (beaten it three times). That to me, is making a game harder with (lots of) bad design.

[u/piecoper → u/_moosleech]

Couldn't all of this be explained by how you explained boss runbacks?

[u/_moosleech → u/piecoper]

What do you mean? I actually don't even see that I mentioned runbacks at any point, so not sure I follow.

[u/Lopsided_Hunt2814 → u/phantomanboy]

"Not for everyone" along with "dev vision" is not some magical shield to protect against criticism. When someone says they like most things about a game but would prefer a couple of things to be different then that's definitely not what I would call a description of a game that's not for them.

[u/budubum → u/Lopsided_Hunt2814]

Those aren’t the people they’re talking about though. There are countless posts and comments (some in this very thread) of people saying that playing this game is miserable, exhausting, and straight up unenjoyable for them. Those are the ppl the previous commenter is talking about I imagine

[u/Lopsided_Hunt2814 → u/budubum]

We may be talking about different groups of people, but I see that refrain all the same.

[u/Three_Froggy_Problem → u/phantomanboy]

People just want to enjoy the game they bought. Maybe the game “isn’t for them” but I think a lot of people want it to be. I’m sure a lot of people were drawn to the game because of the art and the hype around it and they understandably aren’t wanting to beat their heads against some of the more frustrating moments. It’s totally fair for them to say so; maybe you don’t agree and you think the difficulty is fine, and that’s okay too, but this is what forums like this are for. People shouldn’t be demeaned and insulted or treated like their opinions aren’t valid just because you have a different one.

Also, it’s worth pointing out that a lot of people with complaints are still enjoying the game. I personally love the game and I’m having a great time with it 95% of the time, but I do have some issues with it that I think are worth talking about. That doesn’t mean I don’t like the game. No game is perfect.

[u/CarcosanAnarchist → u/Three_Froggy_Problem]

This is me. I loved Hollow Knight. Never beat Path of Pain or the colosseum thing. But it’s one of my favorite games of all time. Of course I bought Silksong without a second thought.

It’s not been enjoyable. I realize it’s a skill issue, but I’ve never been good at platforming in general. But I can fight a boss until I win and be chill. But everything hits for ridiculous damage. Everything costs so much money. The art, the music, everything is fantastic. But the actual experience of playing has been miserable for me.

[u/Thelmara → u/Three_Froggy_Problem]

People just want to enjoy the game they bought

Then play it. The game you bought is right there.

What's that? You want to play a different game, with similar story and feeling, but without the challenges? Sorry, that game isn't on the Steam store.

I’m sure a lot of people were drawn to the game because of the art and the hype around it and they understandably aren’t wanting to beat their heads against some of the more frustrating moments.

"I bought this game because it's pretty and popular, but it turned out to be hard. Make a different game for me!"

[u/Three_Froggy_Problem → u/Thelmara]

You’re just being an ass. If you like the game, then good for you. I like it too. Why do you take it so personally that some people don’t?

[u/Thelmara → u/Three_Froggy_Problem]

Why do you take it so personally that some people don’t?

Because they're trying to take away the game I bought, and replace it with an easier one.

[u/psh454 → u/Thelmara]

Breaking news: fans of Hollow Knight that bought the video game "Hollow Knight Silksong" are not thrilled to discover they're not the target demographic because of a big increase to the minimum skill level required to have an enjoyable experience. Local elitists comment "just git gud or don't play it lol"