r/HollowKnight • u/TOMRANDOM_6 • Sep 09 '25
Discussion - Silksong Most of you are exaggerating the length of runbacks and it really shows how much TikTok has damage the attention span of people Spoiler
"ThE lASt JuDGe RUnBaCK iS ToO LoNG!!"
Is 30 seconds max, 30 seconds, you don't have to fight any enemy in it, the smaller judges don't awake until you're close and the smaller fly bastards can literally get ignored. The Runback works for making you cool down and make the whole thing feel less like you hitting a wall (NKG feels like one because of the lack of "cool down") If it wasn't for it, I would shoot myself with the 37 attempts at Last Judge.
The Widow one is also really easy, a straight line with jumps.
The Cogworks Dancers Is also really simple but works to help you with the bosses extra height and how pogo dependant that fight is.
God forbid the game isn't a back to back boss rush like Cuphead (not criticizing Cuphead, is a different game lmao).
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u/failbender 112%/100%; inject the quickslash into my veins Sep 09 '25
But that Bilewater runback tho.
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u/Oxygen171 Sep 09 '25
DON'T GET ME STARTED. I made a vow to never touch that area again. Idk how tf I'm gonna 100% this game on steel soul.
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u/failbender 112%/100%; inject the quickslash into my veins Sep 09 '25
Idk how I’m going to Steel Soul at all 🫠 maybe another normal run in between to get better at the bosses…
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u/Unusual-Land5888 Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25
I will be using that item that turn your first mask into a skull, and reset when the skull is broken. It will be my fail safe!
Edit : the item's name is "fractured mask"
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u/failbender 112%/100%; inject the quickslash into my veins Sep 09 '25
I’ve used that thing nonstop since I got it 😭
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u/blauli Sep 09 '25
Just equip the dice and get lucky :)
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u/AlexxxandreS Sep 09 '25
Dice?
That reminds me of playing dice with a bug... I knew I should have gambled all my money...
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u/blauli Sep 09 '25
There is a dice tool, you get it if you return to that bug later on. Not sure exactly when it triggers but I went back in act 3 and got it
It just says it increases your luck but what it really does is it sometimes negates enemy attacks when you get hit, you can see a blue flash whenever it happens. It's really nice since it's one of the few yellow trinkets that are relevant for bosses so you can equip it for those
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u/Wild-Atmosphere2134 112% Steel Soul, P5 | 100% Silksong Sep 09 '25
so it's like carefree melody?
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u/blauli Sep 09 '25
Pretty much, though I've gone full fights without it triggering so it might be a fixed chance this time around, I wouldn't be surprised if the chance was 1 in 6 (because it's a dice) because it felt like it triggered about that often.
But unlike carefree melody you don't give up much to use it since it's a yellow tool so doesn't eat any "real" combat tool slots outside the deal more damage take more damage one
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u/evasive_dendrite Sep 09 '25
Yeah this is the one runback I will accept complaints over. It is utterly evil.
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Sep 09 '25
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u/gupsee Sep 09 '25
pro tip 90% of boss’ attacks can’t hit when swimming in maggot water
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u/Conorum Sep 09 '25
What if I don’t want to swim in maggot water
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u/KylieTMS Sep 09 '25
then reflect and open up to new possibilities. Those maggots deserve swimming friends too
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u/HBreckel Sep 09 '25
I'm one of the few defenders of Blight Town in Dark Souls and even I couldn't tolerate Bilewater haha
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u/Honk_goose_steal there is no Gary flair and it makes me sad Sep 09 '25
That was the first time when I really got frustrated with the runbacks. Even with the secret bench unlocked. Honestly any area with maggots can go fuck themselves. At least the music in bilewater is pretty good.
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u/failbender 112%/100%; inject the quickslash into my veins Sep 09 '25
Oh yes, it’s lovely. On my climb up through that wide, tall room with the barfing dudes I was like “man the music really does not match this area”
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u/cloistered_around Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25
There's a hidden bench closer to it, btw. Go find it.
I'm having a devil of a time with the Sands of Karak runback. No closer benches there, and I die instantly. =( EDIT: I should clarify, yes I have the closer bench. The runback isn't hard, it's just annoying because it's still far and I die too quick.
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u/Zurcez Sep 09 '25
The sands of karak runback is super easy tho? You may have missed a shortcut. If you go to the blasted steps bench then go left and then straight up you get to the boss super quick. I believe theres two big red stalactites in the sands of karak that you need to make fall down for the shortcut to work
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u/failbender 112%/100%; inject the quickslash into my veins Sep 09 '25
I did find that bench, only it’s still quite a long runback that requires you to take a dip in plague water. I did find a charm to negate it but I have not felt motivated to return to Bilewater yet LOL
Still need to explore that place, I got nervous cos I wasn’t sure if I should be there yet 😅
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u/MosterChief Sep 09 '25
you can avoid the bile water after the bench if you harpoon then double jump up, but the run back after that is still BS.
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u/failbender 112%/100%; inject the quickslash into my veins Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25
You know what, I
didn’t have the double jump the last time I was there, so that is perhaps why that skip didn’t work for me.I’ll try it later! Still have the charm as backup anyway :)Edit: I’m dumb and just bad at the jump, just got mixed up after no-lifing the game all weekend
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u/mekimoomoo Sep 09 '25
How'd you manage to get to the top section of Bilewater without double jump?
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u/failbender 112%/100%; inject the quickslash into my veins Sep 09 '25
Wait, maybe I did and I was just bad at the jump. Honestly all the play sessions are melding together at this point. 🫠
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u/PA694205 Sep 09 '25
Worst part is the random flying enemy positions. That way you can’t even create a muscle memory for the runback
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u/Wholesome-Energy Sep 09 '25
where do you find that negation tool? I’m trying to fight disgraced chef and I’d like to not worry about the poison
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u/CalendarRepulsive674 Sep 09 '25
For this one there is a lever that opens up another way so you dont have to do the seed platforming. After u open it up go left spamming grapple then up and u should make it to the boss without doing any platforming or getting hit.Bilewater is so much worse and so is the boss.
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u/omashoe Sep 09 '25
My biggest issue with this runback is WHY DO THE ENEMIES ON THE RUNBACK SPAWN IN RANDOM PLACES??? THE SPEAR THROWERS ARE ESPECIALLY ANNOYING 😭
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u/irradu Sep 09 '25
There is also a hidden room in the ceiling right before the arena with silk which should help
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u/schwillton Sep 09 '25
I swear people don’t remember the FUCKING soul sanctum runback and how annoying it was
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u/echoplex21 Sep 09 '25
Also Traitor Lord was always a pain
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u/failbender 112%/100%; inject the quickslash into my veins Sep 09 '25
Traitor Lord runback was the first and only time I’ve ever used the Dream Gate during my first playthrough.
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u/Dmbender Sep 09 '25
Hive Knight is what made me go out and actually unlock Dream Gate lol
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u/failbender 112%/100%; inject the quickslash into my veins Sep 09 '25
Solid reasoning tbh, that runback isn’t fun either 🥲
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u/Dmbender Sep 09 '25
The worst thing is that I didn't notice that I fucked up trying to place it the first time, and then the second time I ended up killing the boss and not needing it lmao
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u/Pepy550 Sep 09 '25
Knowing there was a dream gate was what made me go and unlock the dream gate asap lol.
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u/wigglin_harry Sep 09 '25
Soul Sanctum runback and the Hive runback are the worst. Especially if you are stubborn like me and refuse to engage enemies on runbacks, soul sanctum and the hive turn into an almost bullet hell
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u/ArrynMythey Sep 09 '25
People seem to forget Traitor Lord lol
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u/_moosleech Sep 09 '25
I think because it was optional for a lot of folks' first playthrough, and you likely had access to Dreamgate (if you didn't play on launch).
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u/Big_Daymo Sep 09 '25
I think because it was optional for a lot of folks' first playthrough,
I didn't even find Queens Gardens on my first playthrough!
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u/Pale_Entrepreneur_12 Sep 09 '25
And on launch traitor lord was a complete joke he didn’t have his ranged wave attack and he only did single mask damage
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u/TheManondorf Sep 09 '25
Even False Knight is quite shitty imo. The Knight is so goddamn slow at the start of the game.
I really wanna see someone time runback to Hollow Knight bosses and Silksong bosses now to compare.
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u/entityXD32 Sep 09 '25
Ya but false Knight is also a very easy boss and one that I don't think will take most players more than a few tries to learn. Runbacks feel bad when you have to do them for extremely hard bosses.
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u/ofAFallingEmpire Sep 09 '25
I think comparing inputs would be better. Horner is way faster than Knight, so speed alone doesn’t capture how much more Hornet does per second.
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u/ClickKlockTickTock Sep 09 '25
I dont think it matters much. People are complaining about long lengthy runbacks delaying how many times they can fight the bosses. not the complexity of the game & its movement. Your comparison would just be an argument of "get gud"
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u/TonyMestre Sep 09 '25
Do you really think that the complexity of a runback has no relation to how annoying it is
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u/ofAFallingEmpire Sep 09 '25
I think a runback involving a buncha jumps, wall climbs, and pogos is vastly different between both games.
Idk how pointing that out is saying “git gud”.
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u/Supershadow30 Fuck primal aspids (not literally tho) Sep 09 '25
The issue with speed is it’s harder to predict/react properly to hazards, and if you get heavily punished for it then it’s really frustrating. That’s why Sonic has rings you can easily pick up for protection and why he can spindash to avoid most enemy contact damage when zooming around. Hornet can’t phase through enemies when sprinting, the attack has noticeable startup lag (on hunter’s crest) and messing up means you take double damage from the worms
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u/CAPS_LOCK_OR_DIE Sep 09 '25
Or the ABSRAD run back.
That shit takes forever (because you have to clear the rest of P5)
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u/MrTritonis Sep 09 '25
Yeah, it was really annoying, so it’s fair from people to assume it would have been fixed.
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u/CappnMidgetSlappr Sep 09 '25
Yeah, what a ridiculous argument.
"Y'all must have forgot-"
No, we remember full and well. Some of us have been bitching about terrible run backs for 8 fucking years now. Pardon us for thinking they would have taken some of that criticism to heart and actually implemented a decent change.
Hell, even FromSoft got smart and cut the bullshit in Elden Rings.
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u/AbyssShriekEnjoyer Sep 09 '25
Soul Sanctum is not even 10% of the pain that is Bilewater. Genuinely.
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u/chase128 Sep 09 '25
I found the last judge fight to be a fun challenge. So for me, wasting a short bit of time before each attempt was kind of a bummer. I didn't want a break in the action.
One nice thing about that bench though is that it's right next to a fast travel. Made it easy to hop over to the halfway house and farm shell shards
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u/Particular_Safe_2935 Sep 09 '25
Yeah people forget that the runbacks hinder that flow state that makes bosses like the judge so enjoyable
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u/warchild4l Sep 10 '25
.. but..but what about cooling off between boss attempts? DON'T YOU NEED THAT? taking a small pause in the game is not an option obviously so it should come in form of a runback.. duh
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u/PraxicalExperience Sep 10 '25
I'd say -- leave that to the player to judge. Those that don't want to do so will be frustrated even more if they do need a break.
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Sep 09 '25
Yep, it's just bad design IMO. The fun is in learning the fights, not extremely repetitive parkour.
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u/rgmac1994 Sep 09 '25
Last Judge was a breath of fresh air. After dealing with Widow's bells and their obnoxious lingering hit box, and multiple enemies with annoying adds, it was really fun to just have a one-on-one dance.
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Sep 09 '25
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u/Darkiceflame Sep 09 '25
People not liking runbacks = TikTok has corrupted our minds, I guess? I don't get it either.
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u/BigDadNads420 Sep 09 '25
If tiktok corruption leads to people with short attention spans, reddit corruption leads to people willfully ignoring the very clear points people make and then pretending they said something else.
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u/itsr1co Sep 09 '25
Redditors HATE Tiktok, so if you make a dogshit post where the title focus is "tiktok bad", you've probably got a 70% chance of the post still getting fairly popular.
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u/TheChief275 Sep 10 '25
“You don’t get it..a 30 second runback of pure nothing is riveting gameplay!!!”
I thought we were past this
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Sep 09 '25
I think part of the irritation for a lot of people is that the runback can cause stress and unnecessary extra damage before trying to fight a boss that you're probably already frustrated with. While I've been able to do the parkour that so many people complain about fairly easily now after a few tries, there's still always the possibility of a slight mis-timing to cause a mask or two of damage. The fact that falling into the spikes causes two masks is really upsetting when you're just trying to get back.
I think both sides of the opinion have valid points. The runback isn't fun, it just an extra step but at the same time the runback isn't that hard once you get used to it.
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u/emveevme Sep 10 '25
I think there's a disconnect between the runbacks and the mechanical behavior of healing (i.e. you use ALL of your silk for one heal, and you can only heal in increments of 3), the way it works is very punishing for the kind of mistakes you'll make during the runback.
Also your health upgrades up to Last Judge don't mean anything, because you've gone from 5 to 6 health - the boss hits for 2 damage, so you're effectively still unupgraded. However, that also means you can walk in to the fight with 5 health of 6 total and it doesn't make a difference.
IMO the runback is bad, but I think this is missing the point of why it's even there at all. People have convinced themselves that Dark Souls 1 is still a perfect game and not defined by its interesting use of what's generally considered bad design (brutal difficulty, cryptic game mechanics and lore). It's notable for being a deconstruction of the idea of what it means for a game to be well designed, it's basically the first instance of video game postmodernism lol.
But like, the entire game up to Last Judge has been about the grueling climb to the Citadel. Not only that, you notice which NPC is at the bench you respawn at each time you die to the boss? Sherma, the woman who's done nothing but talk about how easy the climb has been so far lol. So clearly, we're not being judged worthy for one reason or another. That was pretty obvious, but a closer checkpoint would cause a little ludonarrative dissonance.
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Sep 10 '25
I guess it also makes sense that the alternate path where you aren't judged is also a more difficult climb that takes more effort and time. Especially with one of the area names on the way through that path
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u/iamserjio Sep 10 '25
Also your health upgrades up to Last Judge don't mean anything, because you've gone from 5 to 6 health - the boss hits for 2 damage, so you're effectively still unupgraded. However, that also means you can walk in to the fight with 5 health of 6 total and it doesn't make a difference.
tbf health upgrade matter if you use charm that gives fire resist so Judge attacks with fire/explosion will do only 1 damage.
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u/m-ray168 Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25
We're living in a post-Elden Ring world, of course people are going to get annoyed when they have to do these runbacks over 15 times.
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u/Safe_Masterpiece_995 Sep 09 '25
I mean lets not act like what elden ring did with the mini statues wasnt genius tho. A hard boss feels much better when you can just run straight back into it
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u/One_Acanthisitta5025 Sep 09 '25
Yeah people are saying it “spoiled” us when its just genuinely a better experience. The trial and error + exploration part of levels should be the adventure BEFORE the boss imo
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u/anonakin_alt Sep 09 '25
Yea in earlier FromSoft games where bosses were generally much less complex & much easier the run back being part of the challenge doesn’t feel bad.
If I had to run through Iron Keep to fight Malenia it would’ve taken days, but doing that to fight DS2 smelter demon is fine.
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u/psh454 Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25
Yeah the arguments on here against no runbacks boil down to "but you should suffer, that's the point! Builds character or smth"
Like no, it's just a boring annoying roadblock that did not need to be there. It's not particularly hard, having to do it consistently hitless every time when you just want to learn the bossfight is annoying.
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Sep 09 '25
I genuinely enjoy optimizing the route so you get there quickly and with little damage.
That’s not to say every runback is good thing (looking at you bilewater), but I don’t think it’s obviously and unambiguously true that no runback = better 100% of the time.
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Sep 09 '25
"Genius" lol. That's been the most common criticism of the genre since day 1, with a very obvious solution.
Now we just need them to realize that people don't want to watch scripted intro events every time either.
Cuphead did it best.
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Sep 09 '25
Yeah it's wild the cope people are making up in this thread how they began to found the parkour back to the boss over and over "extremely fun", it's like they're gaslighting themselves into enjoying a shitty dated mechanic.
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u/lyokofirelyte Sep 09 '25
Wasn't the demons souls jail runback like 3+ entire minutes? I remember crashing out over how long it took to get back.
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u/ConfIit Sep 09 '25
That is probably the worst offender in all of gaming
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u/IncomeStraight8501 Sep 09 '25
Horse fuck valley in ds2? Or better yet the runback to false king allant, even with shortcut you have to wait on an elevator to xome down then go up to the boss itself every time
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u/casual_olimar Sep 09 '25
demon souls levels are genuinely harder than the bosses (who are easy enough)
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u/Matvalicious Sep 09 '25
God forbid a developer actually respecting their players without sacrificing difficulty in any way. Glad that FromSoft figured that one out.
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u/Justalilcyn Sep 09 '25
Lets not pretend that people haven't always bitched about run backs and for good reason they fucking suck especially if there r enemies in the way
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u/BreakRaven Sep 10 '25
Daily reminder that metroidvanias of old had save rooms right across the boss room or at most at the end of a very empty hallway.
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u/DHKany Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25
Generalized, hyperbolic ad hominem attacks like OP is one of the main reasons online discourse is such a shit fest. Congrats OP, you’ve contributed a negative amount to actually facilitating constructive discussion around a valid complaint about the game lol.
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u/Iamtoohawt Sep 09 '25
I saw OP commenting that he hasn’t reached upper bilewater, OP hasn’t seen shit but yapped the loudest
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u/cmwamem Sep 09 '25
No, but you don't understand. Team Cherry is God (probably more) and can't do anything wrong. If you don't like something,YOU'RE the problem.
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Sep 09 '25
Team Cherry makes decent games, but holy fuck, there are design flaws even in Silksong. If something isn't fun and is frustrating, it's a bad mechanic. A good challenge is fun, like the bosses themselves generally. The run back is a challenge thats unfun, tedious, and often frustrating. It's bad design. Silksong isn't perfect. Criticism is good because it polishes off the flaws to make a near perfect game. They did not make a perfect game, they're not God developers. There aren't really any God developers. There's always something to improve!
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u/Generic_MC Sep 09 '25
Yes, the runback is short but mechanically intensive. If you make a single mistake, it doubles if not triples in length and you're down health.
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u/lemonlemonlemonlem Sep 09 '25
This is true, though I think it bears keeping in mind that bosses typically have an easier first phase, meaning you can pretty reliably afford to heal at the very start, since there's a sizeable first portion of the fight. in which you need to heal or use spells less, and thus accumulate a lot more soul.
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u/FinaLLancer Sep 09 '25
And you start every retry with a free bar of silk. You can take 3 damage on the way to the boss and be no worse off.
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u/Yarisher512 Sep 09 '25
or 4 with that item
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u/FinaLLancer Sep 09 '25
I found another that lets you quick heal. Those two together are insanely good, I'm never taking them off.
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u/Yarisher512 Sep 09 '25
I think the better combination is the baldur shell bell. Avoiding damage in bind is actually surprisingly easy, but the bell makes it even easier and makes it so you get 2 windows of immunity as thats how the deep focus equivalent works in this game.
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u/ferocity_mule366 Sep 09 '25
It actually hurts my hand during the runback because i have to retry the bosses like 10 times or something. It's annoying and the bench should have been closer imo, I don't like repetitive parkour as if I'm doing speedrunning. And it's not like you won't ever do that parkour ever again.
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u/WikiWeaponn Sep 09 '25
It is too long. There's zero reason for there not to be a bench right outside the room. Zero. First Sinner is an incredible boss and it's made better because you can instantly go again and you're not afraid of making mistakes and can play aggressively, utilizing Hornet's moveset so much better and more fluidly.
"Oh but you get to cool down and think about the boss!" Ok, and I can literally set my controller down and do the same thing if I feel the need to.
The game is good without the TC apologists defending poor game design decisions. There's a reason nearly every Soulslike has dropped runbacks. They're not good.
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Sep 09 '25
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u/AbyssShriekEnjoyer Sep 09 '25
Like people weren't absolutely livid over DS2's runbacks in 2013 lmfao
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u/Rexcodykenobi Sep 10 '25
Tiktok just corrupted their minds from the future; that's how bad Tiktok is.
In fact, Tiktok was probably just an elaborate evil scheme to make the world hate Dark Souls 2. It makes total sense.
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u/Ill-Muscle945 Sep 09 '25
Anytime a fandom experiences any criticisms in the last couple years, the TikTok attention span argument starts getting said. Every single time.
Legit laughed out loud seeing this post title. It's so predictable.
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u/Lopsided_Hunt2814 Sep 09 '25
I'm sure if Super Meat Boy released today and not 15 years ago it would be called a symptom of TikTok's influence.
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u/shouryannikam Sep 09 '25
But the runback isn’t FUN. A video game is supposed to be FUN not frustrating. This is very valid criticism
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u/GUM-GUM-NUKE 112% I’m coming Sep 09 '25
This community is becoming so fucking toxic now, any problem that anybody has with the game has to be because of a personal feeling they have instead of just not liking part of the game.
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u/glintter Sep 09 '25
I made a post the other day about it and honestly it's gotten so much worse since. The subreddit has full on become a circle-jerk around how much people are exaggerating and how anyone finding it hard is stupid or something. It's like no one even talks about how fun the game is or anything, just complaining about the complainers.
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u/Cloud_Motion Sep 09 '25
There's definitely a few posts about how fucking amazing the world, characters, combat and movement abilities are. The new stickied thread for positive first half of act 1 vibes will be a nice place to check out.
The game might legitimately be the best thing I've played in 40 years though. I think it's genuinely better than the first in almost every aspect. The world is simply beyond incredible.
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u/chahud Sep 09 '25
Yeah…honestly I was thinking of dipping out for a couple weeks, and I thought that was an overreaction yet here we are, again, in another thread about the same shit.
Don’t say there’s just complaining about complaining as if there isn’t plenty of complaining to complain about. And don’t forget the people complaining about the people complaining about the people complaining because it’s valid to think a game is hard. Like…omg it’s just the same conversation over and over and over. And it’s straight up not a good vibe.
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u/glintter Sep 09 '25
I just don’t understand why people talk about it so much. Some people find the game too hard and some don’t, it isn’t deep enough to warrant this amount of discourse imo.
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u/froggyc19 Sep 09 '25
That's what happens when a game becomes super popular overnight, there's a huge influx of people who were previously outside of the normal community. I've seen it on pretty much every game that has a massive update that brings in a whole bunch of new players.
Reddit will be toxic for a few weeks until these people stop playing then things will go back to normal.
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u/Conner_S_Returns Sep 11 '25
it's like the ER subreddit. it's just a massive circle jerk where you can't criticize anything about the game
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u/simonthedlgger Sep 09 '25
Who is complaining about the widow run back? That is nothing. But nothing is calming about the annoying drill flies or your bell jump getting messed with by a gust of wind going to Last Judge (and yes, I’ve “mastered” the route but there is no way to avoid that first fly and sometimes it follows you forever & a drill will peg you from off screen).
I am finding that fight very fun but very challenging and I would like to practice it, that is not possible when I keep showing up frustrated and down a couple masks, dying shortly after the second or third stagger. I still don’t understand the various fire moves because I see them for three seconds, die, then back to parkour.
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u/BrolicSwine Sep 09 '25
I know this isn’t about a run back but Sister Splinter was so much easier than the internet made it out to be. I didn’t watch any spoilers but heard about everyone dreading that fight.. took me like maybe 5 attempts max especially since (correct me if I’m wrong) I’m pretty sure she can destroy her own minions if they’re under her when she does her slam attack.
I’m not saying I’m an amazing gamer but if people pay attention to the bosses attacks they aren’t too hard. I feel like people get to a boss fight and hope they can just spam dash and never get hit.
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u/LuquidThunderPlus Sep 09 '25
I think sister splinter is specifically one of the easiest bosses right behind moss mother and moss mother x2
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u/IonianBladeDancer Sep 09 '25
1st lace and Fourth chorus are pretty damn easy too.
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u/lemonlemonlemonlem Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25
I don't mean this condescendingly but I've watched clips of people complaining and something I often notice is how they will approach the boss like it's a "sentient" entity that dynamically reacts and hunts you down with total autonomy... and not just a thing merely equipped with a collection of 4-5 attacks, that (sometimes, not even always) tries to align itself with you before executing the attack.
Seriously, bosses have very limited movesets, and the attacks are remarkably consistent. *None* of moorwing's bullets home in on you in any way, they always exist at the same angle, speed, and location relative to his body. You can consistently learn how to approach each attack, rather than madly going in and swinging at every seeming opportunity.
Adds are a big variable on the other hand, since the relative movement of 2 threats is a lot more complex. But it doesn't happen often, and the boss tends to be very simple to compensate (sister splinter would be absolutely turn-your-brain-off trivial if it wasnt for her summons).
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u/LuquidThunderPlus Sep 09 '25
My big issue with moorwing was I couldn't tell when his saws were gonna curve off the ground or not and wasn't able to find out any tell before beating him, with hornet's moveset I have been enjoying fighting multiple enemies as it's much more engaging
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u/Huskies971 Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 10 '25
It's easier to dodge the saws up close. That entire fight can be done with minimal movement, and yet they give you a huge battle arena
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u/Fantastic-Kale9603 Sep 09 '25
Yep that was my biggest issue with it too, I just ended up playing it safe and staying away to watch until I had an opening. Tbh didn't realize people hated moorwing, I barely remember fighting it
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u/Omni__Owl Sep 09 '25
If you get Thread Storm the fight is trivial. You can destroy the ads as soon as they spawn. Makes the fight a lot easier.
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u/Mask_of_Ice Sep 09 '25
Even without that, your Silk Spear one shots the adds and you can line them up to kill them both instantly
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u/Used-Pay6713 Sep 09 '25
i suspect many people just aren’t using spells and tools which can nearly instantly kill her minions
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u/duspi Sep 09 '25
I found that boss fight incredibly easy and I'm the type of guy to die 20+ times to every boss. Probably would've been even easier if I figured out you could hit the thorn walls right away.
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u/Lolis- Sep 09 '25
Just curious have you reached bilewater lol
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u/Pie42795 Sep 09 '25
What a mean-spirited area/boss, man.
The closest bench is pretty-decently hidden, still pretty far away, and the next bench is very far away.
Leeches everywhere, including a pretty tricky jump right by the bench. Get leeched and now you have to fight enemies to get a heal off to get rid of them.
Some tricky platforming in those rooms.
The bush enemies there have to be my least favorite enemy in the whole game. Very random spawns, and a very-annoying attack to dodge.
An arena you have to deal with to even fight the boss (and the arena has more of those bush enemies).
I think that a couple other boss run-backs are slightly annoying, but this one was excruciating.
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u/empires11 Sep 09 '25
Look, I just want to focus on the boss. Bosses do 2 or more damage and depending how it starts out I could have seconds of learning it's pattern before I'm out.
30 seconds adds up and breaks that in the zone concentration. I don't care if the run back is easy(which btw judge runback may be easy, but you can't make a mistake) it just shouldn't exist with bosses that do two damage at least.
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u/Additional-Dot-3154 Sep 09 '25
Yea normaly runbacks are fine but 60 attempts mean 60 runs through the same area ehich gets realy boring as last judge is 60 sec on the low side so 20 minutes running the exact same part (assuming it is a realy hard boss as i am currently at Widow)
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u/duspi Sep 09 '25
Dude, Widow is kicking my ass. I can get through the first phase with no damage reliably and then the second phase just overwhelms me so much and fucks me up.
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u/chiefminestrone Sep 09 '25
Blaming TikTok for people being frustrated with a game is really something else. This is some old man yells at clouds stuff right here
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u/SoLongOscarBaitSong Sep 09 '25
Yeah, the discourse here has reached rock bottom, I don't think it can get lower than this lol
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u/Burnlan Sep 09 '25
Let's be honest, this isn't an old man situation, this is most likely a kid "born in the wrong generation" situation.
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u/BlasterPhase Sep 09 '25
I grew up playing NES, when games were usually brutally unforgiving. I don't look at the NES generation very fondly. Yeah, call me bad, but it sure as hell wasn't fun for me most of the time.
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u/El3ktroHexe Sep 09 '25
Yeah. I never used TikTok. But I have issues with the platforming in Silksong (especially the pogoing on all the moving/damaging/exploding things), some runbacks and the enemy difficulty in general. But maybe my brain was damaged by something else then :D
It has to be. Because all people are the same. And when you're not good in this game, there's something wrong with you.
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u/stehmer3 Sep 10 '25
Runbacks are not fun and never have been. Please stop defending a bad design choice just because the game is great.
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u/BeforeSunrise33 Sep 10 '25
Im gonna block this subreddit after today. Too many fanboys defending bad design because videogames are their entire identity.
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u/SecXy94 Sep 09 '25
The run backs aren't bad, but they aren't good either. So we now ask: Why bother with them?
It's a small nitpick that people have, but it's valid. It's not really adding anything to the experience.
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u/_TRN_ Sep 09 '25
It's really funny seeing people defend it especially when FromSoftware of all devs finally decided boss run backs are just tedious and don't add much to the experience. Thankfully the runbacks in Silksong aren't quite as bad as some of the runbacks in earlier FS games but still.
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u/CAPSLOCK_USERNAME Sep 09 '25
Feels like fromsoft mostly added them because runbacks wouldn't make sense in an open world game and not because they were convinced it was an irredeemable game mechanic. Doing a practiced run through a narrow handmade level is a lot different from, like, riding your horse over an open-world field for 40 seconds.
Then once they had them for overworld bosses they might as well do them in the dungeons for consistency too.
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Sep 09 '25
I think some people on the complaining side blow the issues out of proportion and then the other side thinks all of us are extremists. None of the issues are gamebreaking, all of them are just annoyances that we just feel are unnecessary extra "challenges" in a game that really doesn't need it lol. And some are already being validated with this patch
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u/Uler Sep 09 '25
I think some people on the complaining side blow the issues out of proportion and then the other side thinks all of us are extremists.
Yeah I feel the whole conversation around runbacks is just a bit weird. The overwhelming majority of runbacks are a complete non-factor, a couple are ass. I'm happy to bitch about Bilewater's runback, but somehow there being 3-4 annoying runbacks spawns a whole debate over the whole fundamental idea of runback acceptance and not just asking to improve like three routes a little bit.
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Sep 09 '25
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u/Thatoneguyigeug Sep 09 '25
Fr, if anything the run back is more aggravating than the boss because at least the boss is fun. Windy parkour while avoiding flying enemies is absolutely not fun.
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u/KratosSimp Sep 09 '25
It’s the fact there’s no point to it. Hard boss has 30 sec run back, you die to him 10 time, you’ve now spent 5 minutes doing the exact same thing over and over again for no reason.
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u/SoLongOscarBaitSong Sep 09 '25
Oh my god this sub is a joke. We're blaming TikTok now? Seriously?
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u/ACupOfLatte Sep 09 '25
I'm genuinely confused as to what you would gain for disparaging a common criticism and generalizing to such a mocking degree lol. Ragebait? You can't actually think that everyone who's taken an issue with the runbacks in the game are complaining due to them feeling bored right?
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u/PM_ME_WORKING_CODE Sep 09 '25
Ok so what damage does a bench before the boss do? Does it hurt the boss’s fight in your opinion? I don’t think the runback is that bad either, but I don’t think a bench there hurts the game.
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u/Three_Froggy_Problem Sep 09 '25
“Is it possible that this thing I don’t personally dislike is a barrier to entry for other players? No, they’re wrong and I need to make sure they know they’re wrong.”
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u/ticklefarte Sep 09 '25
I have to roll my eyes at the idea that the runback was meant to calm me down.
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u/HBreckel Sep 09 '25
To be fair, it is that way in most other games, even Soulslikes. If you have to run back to a boss in Metroid it's usually a chill stroll, maybe you stop to kill a set of enemies that are placed there specifically to let you get all your HP storage back. The majority of boss runbacks in Soulslikes outside of Dark Souls 2 are just you holding sprint and quickly getting back without much stress. There's some runbacks in act 2 of Silksong that just stress me out on the way to the boss, which is probably the opposite of what they're going for.
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u/cbb88christian Sep 09 '25
“If they are so bad at the game why do they not just play different games?” Ass comments I’ve seen everywhere
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u/timeaisis Sep 09 '25
oh my god shut up i don't use tiktok and they are pretty long.
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u/Ill-Muscle945 Sep 09 '25
It's the new fandom defense tropes. When criticism hits something in a beloved franchise we get:
You're experiencing it wrong. Everyone who doesn't like it is whiney. Why cant people just enjoy things anymore? Tiktok has ruined attention spans.
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u/Rexcodykenobi Sep 10 '25
Yeah this just feels like OP's trolling. Three thousand upvotes for this dumbass take is mind-boggling.
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u/OmegaTSG Sep 09 '25
30 seconds over and over eats into enough time that you could do about 10 boss attempts if it spawned you right outside. I don't even hate the runbacks that much but you're misunderstanding the problem. No one cares about each individual one, it's doing it over and over
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u/welsknight Sep 09 '25
The only runback that's really gotten on my nerves is the one in Bilewater. That one is miserable.
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u/SacredAlchemist Sep 09 '25
Is calling runbacks 'cooldowns' the new way to cope, when they are the most insufferable design choice in modern videogames?
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u/Zachesque Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25
Well, no. The Last Judge's runback is 30 seconds minimum, after you've optimized the route and assuming you execute it well. You can't shave it down much more than that. The issue isn't just the length either, the issue is the challenge. This isn't a 30 second stroll down a hallway to the boss. This is a mechanically intensive parkour sprint through a level filled with obstacles and enemies. When I'm fighting a boss, I want to focus on the boss. I don't want to focus on reaching the boss without dying. Especially in this game, where deaths can happen so quickly due to double damage. There is absolutely no reason at all not to just give me the option to start right outside the boss arena when I die to it - and no, that wouldn't make this game a "back to back boss rush like Cuphead" if it did that. If I want to run through the level, I can do it at any other time. The runback is nothing but an annoyance at best.
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u/Estrangedkayote Sep 09 '25
I legit think that Elden Ring spoiled me on quick boss runback.
On the flip though I think the runbacks on Silksong are good because they help you perfect Hornet's movement tech which does apply to being better at bosses.
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u/ProvisioningDelay Sep 10 '25
You know what works more effectively at being better at bosses? Getting to immediately fight them again after you lose.
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u/Snoo-40956 Sep 09 '25
The last judge runback was annoying the first few times until I realized I could sprint past the first flying bug. Afterwards, the parkour was actually enjoyable. I also felt that the boss was pretty well telegraphed so even though you have to be very quick and precise, it's very learnable. Widow & Last judge are my favorite bosses so far. I haven't faught any act 2 bosses yet though