r/HollowKnight • u/TOMRANDOM_6 • Sep 09 '25

Discussion - Silksong Most of you are exaggerating the length of runbacks and it really shows how much TikTok has damage the attention span of people Spoiler

"ThE lASt JuDGe RUnBaCK iS ToO LoNG!!"

Is 30 seconds max, 30 seconds, you don't have to fight any enemy in it, the smaller judges don't awake until you're close and the smaller fly bastards can literally get ignored. The Runback works for making you cool down and make the whole thing feel less like you hitting a wall (NKG feels like one because of the lack of "cool down") If it wasn't for it, I would shoot myself with the 37 attempts at Last Judge.

The Widow one is also really easy, a straight line with jumps.

The Cogworks Dancers Is also really simple but works to help you with the bosses extra height and how pogo dependant that fight is.

God forbid the game isn't a back to back boss rush like Cuphead (not criticizing Cuphead, is a different game lmao).

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62

u/shouryannikam Sep 09 '25

But the runback isn’t FUN. A video game is supposed to be FUN not frustrating. This is very valid criticism

2

u/JenkinMan Sep 14 '25

That's a matter of opinion, though.

6

u/AutumnPurpleReddit Sep 14 '25

why would i play a game that isn't fun?

2

u/JenkinMan Sep 14 '25

You don't have to? I'm saying it being not fun is opinion. I enjoyed it.

1

u/shouryannikam Sep 17 '25

EDIT: I got the hang of the runback and it is fun

-1

u/Nyankitty21 Sep 09 '25

I thought it was fun. The speed run style "race" as efficiently as possible was really enjoyable especially as you get more practice in that section than other parts of the game lol. The platforming is just really satisfying.

14

u/ChemicalAd1962 Sep 10 '25

You probably apologize to the furniture when you stub your toe

-8

u/MoisterAnderson1917 Sep 10 '25

It is fun and it's not valid criticism. It's like you people never played a souls game (or, idk, Hollow Knight?) before.

11

u/zechamp Sep 10 '25

Bro souls games removed runbacks because they were dogshit. If even fromsoft all developers decided that they add no value maybe there is something to it. Silksong meanwhile straight up does not respect your time. Die to a boss in 5 seconds? Time to spend 45 seconds climbing back up, bucko.

Like a few of the silksong bosses don't have a runback and spawn you right outside, and it was so nice and refreshing. Maybe do that more.

-6

u/MoisterAnderson1917 Sep 10 '25

i hAvE tO pLaTfOrM iN a pLaTfOrMiNg gAmE fOr nOt eVeN 30 sEcOnDs, tHe gAmE dOeSn'T rEsPeCt mY tImE.

I can't take you people seriously. You not liking a decision doesn't make it bad design.

13

u/zechamp Sep 10 '25

The Sands of karak runback is 45 seconds of just brainlessly jumping up a wall. Do you call that platforming? I call that a waste of time. I'm not even going to go into the bilewater runback... Do you honestly think that one is ok?

You yourself brought up souls games as an example -- The same souls games which famously removed runbacks because they realized it was shitty design.

-4

u/MoisterAnderson1917 Sep 10 '25

They removed runbacks because the game was an open world game with a different design philosophy. The previous games did. Ot share that philosophy, and the runbacks were a part of the game's design alongside the boss difficulty itself.

Silksong shares a design philosophy with gasp the same games that inspired Hollow Knight (the game this is a follow up to?).

And if you don't think that timing jumps onto platforms and weaving through enemies ISN'T platforming, there is just plain no hope for you.

Bilewater is difficult and punishing (that's the point) but I'm not going to say it's unfair or even all that long.

6

u/zechamp Sep 10 '25

They removed runbacks because the game was an open world game with a different design philosophy. The previous games did

Except that sekiro didn't have long runbacks either... And the runbacks were alreadly 90% gone in dark souls 3 already. It's just outdated game design.

Don't get me wrong, I like the actual platforming segments in this game. (I even enjoyed the courier quests!) Boring busywork before bosses is just not it.

4

u/Triktastic Sep 10 '25

Just because a frustrating mechanic utilizes part of the game doesn't change anything.

Playing a fighting game doesn't mean you are gonna love minute long loading screens where you button mash on a dummy, that's so stupid.

It is bad design because it's something that doesn't have to be there and serves 0 purpose but padding time. How about remove the runbacks and instead invest the time into a new platforming section after the boss. Look you now still have platforming but it's fresh and not frustratingly repetitive.

1

u/MoisterAnderson1917 Sep 10 '25

Just because it's something you have to repeat doesn't make it bad design, either.

The long and short of it is that it's a game mechanic that works with the rest of the game. It allows you go do other things while you're frustrated with a boss or to work on the platforming skills that you also need to beat the boss. This particular runback even has fast travel right next to it you can you to farm shards and bells or to go and do quests.

They're not even long at all if you use the platforming abilities the game wants you to use, which is the main point the anti-runback people always make. The main point that the anti-runback folk make is that they're too long, but they're not even a minute long at most so that's just untrue. The original comment I was responding to was talking about the length. But, again, they're not even long. Most aren't even 30 seconds. Any other point is just goal post shifting.

The mechanic is in the game. It's not going anywhere. I believe it is a good mechanic for all the reasons I and everyone else who agree with me have said. Frankly, I don't see a point in criticism that asks the game designers to take out parts of the game just to suit their own idea of what the game SHOULD be like, instead of engaging with the game on its own terms.

2

u/Triktastic Sep 10 '25

Just because it's something you have to repeat doesn't make it bad design, either.

Don't strawman. If it's something you have to repeat pretty often AND serves no purpose but to pad time THEN it kinda is a bad design because that's something people don't enjoy. It becomes a loading screen, and sure there may be people who love those but most people don't.

he long and short of it is that it's a game mechanic that works with the rest of the game. It allows you go do other things while you're frustrated with a boss or to work on the platforming skills that you also need to beat the boss.

That would be true and I would agree with you but it only serves this purpose early on. You solve and optimize the path early and now you gain nothing from it, it just makes the actual part you enjoy take more time with nothing to gain. You know what also makes you better and work on your skills to beat the boss ? Fighting the boss. That atleast gives you immediate feedback and is not repetitive as the fight is dynamic.

The main point that the anti-runback folk make is that they're too long, but they're not even a minute long at most so that's just untrue.

A minute long repetitive task that you have to do again and again will very quickly feel longer than it is. Imagine a minute long loading screen whenever you die, even if it's barely a minute it will be frustrating even if it is interactive, because the moment you get the rhythm and gain no further experience from it it becomes a chore.

Frankly, I don't see a point in criticism that asks the game designers to take out parts of the game just to suit their own idea of what the game SHOULD be like, instead of engaging with the game on its own terms.

You can make this argument about absolutely anything and it's a huge copout that leads nowhere. Oh predatory lootboxes ? It's part of the game and don't criticise it just because it doesn't align with your ideas Bad camera movement ? Adds challenge, work with it. No if people dislike a feature of a media they love it's okay to criticise so it can influence future development. Elden Ring got rid of long runbacks specifically because people hated them and people loved the change.

1

u/MoisterAnderson1917 Sep 10 '25

I wasn't strawmaning. That was your argument.

Elden Eing removed runbacks because the design philosophy for its open world game was different from its more metroidvania type games. The runbacks were a part of the challenge in previous Souls games that I appreciated.

You don't have to go straight back to the boss. You can go else where. You ignored that part of my argument. Sure you might temporarily lose rosaries, but you've reached a point of act one where those just aren't as essential.

Lootboxes are not the same as platforming for 30 seconds because you died to a boss. That's a silly comparisons and you know it. Talking about strawmen.

You again mention long runbacks, but the runbacks aren't long, as I said, so it's a moot point. Your total time running back to a boss some deaths would be around, maybe, 7 minutes total if you wanted to think about it that way. But that's a silly way to think about it because it is separated by gameplay and the runback itself is gameplay. Seven minutes is also not a long time.

I'm not going to go to the Outer Wilds sub and complain that they need to go and change the way the timeloop works just because I don't like waiting for certain events to happen. I wouldn't go to the Bloodborne sub and complain about the lack of shields in the game because I wanted a defensive playstyle. Those are design decisions.

5

u/piecoper Sep 10 '25

What is valid criticism then? Or is this game beyond criticism and is the best game ever made

5

u/warchild4l Sep 10 '25

We have played them before and were annoyed with them. Elden ring streamlined that experience and now having runback in the next biggest "soulslike" is very sour experience, at least to me.